Philharmonic Audio - Dennis Murphy - Page 300 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #8971 of 9293 Old 06-20-2019, 12:37 PM
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Looking for recommendation for turntable and preamp to pair with BMRs

I recently got a pair of BMRs and want to hook them up to a turntable. I have a Denon AVR-1612 which Dennis assured me is plenty of power (75w x 2). Probably looking to stay around $500 for a turntable but I really don't want to have a very low end turntable matched with the BMRs. I've done some research and one that sticks out is the Fluance RT84. Any other recommendations and what preamp would people recommend?

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post #8972 of 9293 Old 06-20-2019, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Eddy_Z View Post
I hear you, and had the same thought, until Dave explained what other benefits there would be using the new woofer:


http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/sho...0877#post60877


Don't know if that link will work or not, but there are other significant benefits to the new woofer.


Sorry, do not mean to hijack this thread.
It sounds like a winner. Is it only available with the diamond tweeter?

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post #8973 of 9293 Old 06-20-2019, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by dbissett View Post
It hasn't hit the website yet but their forums indicate that Ascend is producing their Luna Duo center channel speaker now. I'd think it would mate pretty well with the BMRs. What do you guys think?


David
Good question. I would guess it could make a pretty good match. I was researching the hell out of the Sierra-2s for awhile before lucking into the BMRs. I read a couple of reviews along the way that stated both speakers were pretty close. The tweeters should be very close being that the BMR uses the OEM version of the raal in the sierra 2 (and lunas). Obviously I am just speculating, but you got my curiosity going, so I registered over at the Ascend forums and posed the question to Dave there. I'll let ya know what he says (if he replies).
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post #8974 of 9293 Old 06-20-2019, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Eddy_Z View Post
Was there a rumor you heard from a reputable source? Not, of course, reading into the comments from Dennis that someone is currently in possession of his BMRs to listen to them. I can speculate as well as the next guy, but occasionally you have to sprinkle in some facts you can back up!


But, if there is any meat to the rumor, that means the BMR is target practice.
i would assume that if Dave demo'ed the speakers he was looking for ways to improve his line , as well as just checking out Dennis' good work... the fact that Dennis didn't deny that Dave has/had them speaks volumes.. iow , imo, it's worth asking ... it may have to end up in pm's but what the heck , it isn't like they are competing right now...

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post #8975 of 9293 Old 06-20-2019, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Lp85253 View Post
i would assume that if Dave demo'ed the speakers he was looking for ways to improve his line , as well as just checking out Dennis' good work... the fact that Dennis didn't deny that Dave has/had them speaks volumes.. iow , imo, it's worth asking ... it may have to end up in pm's but what the heck , it isn't like they are competing right now...
Well I'm curious because I would some day like to get a matching center for my BMRs, and the Luna Duo sounds like a potential candidate. In my setup a large or really heavy speaker won't work. After finally getting my office setup going and moving the BMRs in there as planned, I find myself wanting to put them back in the main family room area!



Well that was fast. Dave replied to my post already! I'll just copy that below...

"Yes, most definitely. Dennis and I share very similar design philosophies and I can tell you first hand that yes, the forthcoming Luna Duo will make an excellent center with Phil BMR's as left/rights. Obviously the BMR will have deeper bass extension, but the Luna Duo has a surprising amount of midbass punch and the deeper bass of the BMR wouldn't be needed when combined with a sub.

I just recently did a direct A/B comparison between the Duo and our 340 center, which is so much larger. Surprisingly, the Duo beat it in every category except efficiency - it's a beast hidden in a tiny package and I am now using one of my prototypes as a center with our ribbon towers - and crossed at 80Hz, it even keeps up with our towers."
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post #8976 of 9293 Old 06-20-2019, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by D33vious View Post
Well I'm curious because I would some day like to get a matching center for my BMRs, and the Luna Duo sounds like a potential candidate. In my setup a large or really heavy speaker won't work. After finally getting my office setup going and moving the BMRs in there as planned, I find myself wanting to put them back in the main family room area!



Well that was fast. Dave replied to my post already! I'll just copy that below...

"Yes, most definitely. Dennis and I share very similar design philosophies and I can tell you first hand that yes, the forthcoming Luna Duo will make an excellent center with Phil BMR's as left/rights. Obviously the BMR will have deeper bass extension, but the Luna Duo has a surprising amount of midbass punch and the deeper bass of the BMR wouldn't be needed when combined with a sub.

I just recently did a direct A/B comparison between the Duo and our 340 center, which is so much larger. Surprisingly, the Duo beat it in every category except efficiency - it's a beast hidden in a tiny package and I am now using one of my prototypes as a center with our ribbon towers - and crossed at 80Hz, it even keeps up with our towers."
lol .. that was an easy fix

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post #8977 of 9293 Old 06-20-2019, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by D33vious View Post
Well I'm curious because I would some day like to get a matching center for my BMRs, and the Luna Duo sounds like a potential candidate. In my setup a large or really heavy speaker won't work. After finally getting my office setup going and moving the BMRs in there as planned, I find myself wanting to put them back in the main family room area!



Well that was fast. Dave replied to my post already! I'll just copy that below...

"Yes, most definitely. Dennis and I share very similar design philosophies and I can tell you first hand that yes, the forthcoming Luna Duo will make an excellent center with Phil BMR's as left/rights. Obviously the BMR will have deeper bass extension, but the Luna Duo has a surprising amount of midbass punch and the deeper bass of the BMR wouldn't be needed when combined with a sub.

I just recently did a direct A/B comparison between the Duo and our 340 center, which is so much larger. Surprisingly, the Duo beat it in every category except efficiency - it's a beast hidden in a tiny package and I am now using one of my prototypes as a center with our ribbon towers - and crossed at 80Hz, it even keeps up with our towers."
That's great news. Thanks for the update. I'm still using a very old KEF center and with its similarity to the BMRs I'm thinking the Luna Duo would be a great upgrade to the system. Certainly worth an audition.



David
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post #8978 of 9293 Old 06-20-2019, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
It sounds like a winner. Is it only available with the diamond tweeter?
It was developed for use with the Diamond tweeter but Dave is working on pairing it with the RAAL.
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post #8979 of 9293 Old 06-20-2019, 10:00 PM
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Obviously, I would have to hear the Luna center to be sure it would be a good match for the BMR. But certainly its planned small size will be a bonus for a lot of cramped installations. I'll be working on a dedicated WMTW version of the BMR so that BMR owners will have access to a perfect match. Although it won't be as small as the Luna center, we are trying to keep the height to 10" (with the speaker placed horizontally.)
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post #8980 of 9293 Old 06-21-2019, 05:10 AM
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Originally Posted by D33vious View Post
Well that was fast. Dave replied to my post already! I'll just copy that below...

"Yes, most definitely. Dennis and I share very similar design philosophies and I can tell you first hand that yes, the forthcoming Luna Duo will make an excellent center with Phil BMR's as left/rights. Obviously the BMR will have deeper bass extension, but the Luna Duo has a surprising amount of midbass punch and the deeper bass of the BMR wouldn't be needed when combined with a sub.

I just recently did a direct A/B comparison between the Duo and our 340 center, which is so much larger. Surprisingly, the Duo beat it in every category except efficiency - it's a beast hidden in a tiny package and I am now using one of my prototypes as a center with our ribbon towers - and crossed at 80Hz, it even keeps up with our towers."

I suppose, based on this, one might come to the conclusion that Dave "May" have some BMR's on hand
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post #8981 of 9293 Old 06-21-2019, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by jcalifornia View Post
I recently got a pair of BMRs and want to hook them up to a turntable. I have a Denon AVR-1612 which Dennis assured me is plenty of power (75w x 2). Probably looking to stay around $500 for a turntable but I really don't want to have a very low end turntable matched with the BMRs. I've done some research and one that sticks out is the Fluance RT84. Any other recommendations and what preamp would people recommend?
I would look at this, very nice table with Ortofon Red cart:
https://www.crutchfield.com/S-usxAoA...yABEgK3N_D_BwE

The Fluance RT84 is also a very nice table but with the previous models it doesn't have a built in preamp which you'll also need to purchase.

I think you would be happy with either of these tables, and any decent phono pre, you don't need to spend a fortune on a pre box................https://www.amazon.com/Schiit-Mani-P.../dp/B07P8WYX6N

I've been using this for years and is reliable and does what it's supposed to do.....gets out of the way
https://www.musicdirect.com/phono-pr...c-phono-preamp

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_252PBD...ono_box_preamp
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post #8982 of 9293 Old 06-21-2019, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by PhilharmonicDennis View Post
Obviously, I would have to hear the Luna center to be sure it would be a good match for the BMR. But certainly its planned small size will be a bonus for a lot of cramped installations. I'll be working on a dedicated WMTW version of the BMR so that BMR owners will have access to a perfect match. Although it won't be as small as the Luna center, we are trying to keep the height to 10" (with the speaker placed horizontally.)
When Dave sends you back your BMRs, just have him send along his Duo center as well!! (Just keeping this rumor going....LOL).

In all seriousness, thanks for the heads up on the BMR center. Knowing it will be 10" already rules it out for me. My shelf in my entertainment center is just a little over 8.5", so I will already have to rule that out. I would also be a little worried about using a single BMR on its side (if that is plausible) as I am not sure if the shelf can handle that much weight even. In my current TV area I have a KEF q200c, so I would think that the Luna Duo would at least be more of a match.
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post #8983 of 9293 Old 06-21-2019, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by PhilharmonicDennis View Post
Obviously, I would have to hear the Luna center to be sure it would be a good match for the BMR. But certainly its planned small size will be a bonus for a lot of cramped installations. I'll be working on a dedicated WMTW version of the BMR so that BMR owners will have access to a perfect match. Although it won't be as small as the Luna center, we are trying to keep the height to 10" (with the speaker placed horizontally.)

Dennis, any word on the WMTW's width?
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post #8984 of 9293 Old 06-21-2019, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by jcalifornia View Post
I recently got a pair of BMRs and want to hook them up to a turntable. I have a Denon AVR-1612 which Dennis assured me is plenty of power (75w x 2). Probably looking to stay around $500 for a turntable but I really don't want to have a very low end turntable matched with the BMRs. I've done some research and one that sticks out is the Fluance RT84. Any other recommendations and what preamp would people recommend?
Turntables! Those were the days!

Before CD's, there was a "never ending" world of Turntables. I was going to suggest going over the the turntable forum, but alas, there IS NO TURNTABLE Forum! OMG! Who would have thought!

Oh, the endless discussions in the magazines (yes magazines, as there were no internet yet!) about direct drive vs belt driven, and the choices were endless! AND there were components within the turntable too! Separate Tonearm, moving coil or moving magnet cartridge, choice of needle, CORRECTION stylus!!! what shape the stylus is, hundred pound platters, vacuum suction turntables to "suck" the record - CORRECTION LP! onto the platter. OH, and how to clean the vinyl! Discwasher! Was that the best? Google "vintage turntables" from the 70's and 80's. Some crazy expensive engineering! You NEED (HaHa) a Vinyl Weight or CLAMP too! All on Amazon!


Back to 2019. This "Audio Technica" turntable looks pretty good, "Audio Technica" was a cartridge manufacturer back in the day, so I would think that this turntable would have a pretty good cartridge, and it also has a built in phono amp, and usb output:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002S1CJ2Q/
Audio-Technica AT-LP120-USB Direct-Drive Professional Turntable (USB & Analog), Silver - 249.00 on Amazon

I know nothing about this turntable, but it looks good, and has lots of reviews.

ENJOY!
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post #8985 of 9293 Old 06-21-2019, 09:47 PM
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Dennis, any word on the WMTW's width?
We haven't finalized anything, but it will be wide because it will be front ported. Certainly over 20" wide.
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post #8986 of 9293 Old 06-21-2019, 09:54 PM
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We haven't finalized anything, but it will be wide because it will be front ported. Certainly over 20" wide.

I'm hoping for a width of <22.75"

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post #8987 of 9293 Old 06-21-2019, 10:22 PM
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I'm hoping for a width of <22.75"
I don't think we're ever going to come up with a center for you. The planned WMTW will be 24" wide, 10" high, and 13" deep, with a sensitivity of 90dB and a maximum output of around 105 dB, with an F3 close to 40 Hz.
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post #8988 of 9293 Old 06-21-2019, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by PhilharmonicDennis View Post
I don't think we're ever going to come up with a center for you. The planned WMTW will be 24" wide, 10" high, and 13" deep, with a sensitivity of 90dB and a maximum output of around 105 dB, with an F3 close to 40 Hz.

Thanks, Dennis.

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post #8989 of 9293 Old 06-22-2019, 12:33 PM
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Although Dennis is working on getting the BMRs back up for sale again, I wanted to add another finding to the previous discussion of..."what else is out there?" These aren't stand-mount speakers - BUT - I think they could still be compared, because some of the design goals at least appear similar to other speakers we have discussed here: 3-way with a 2" waveguided dome midrange, great high-end clarity, low bass extension, and affordable. The footprint is of course the same in your room as a speaker on a stand, and that is where the rubber meets the road. However a tower with low-mounted bass drivers and transmission line should avoid the floor bounce cancellation commonly seen with stand-mount speakers. That alone may be the only reason I would consider towers again, someday, with the Salk Song3 BeAT at the top of my list.

https://www.htd.com/Level-THREE-Tower-Speakers

Impedance: 8 ohms
Sensitivity: 89dB
Crossover: 3rd order at 725 Hz and 2.5 kHz

Several good reviews are found online.
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post #8990 of 9293 Old 06-23-2019, 11:44 PM
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Tux's 3 way design was mentioned in the diy thread Upcoming products at DIYSOUNDGROUP. Erich is planning on the kits being available in a month.
And they are still not available, as far as I can tell.

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post #8991 of 9293 Old 06-24-2019, 02:39 AM
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I know everyone is anxiously awaiting to see who/when/if the BMR Philharmonitor will be available in one or more forms of a DIY kit, I'd like to see the New Philharmonitor and even the mini-Phils in kit form. It seems to me these are perfectly suited for surround use in a high-quality multi-channel music system. Well, one can dream, can't one?
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post #8992 of 9293 Old 06-25-2019, 05:33 PM
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I know everyone is anxiously awaiting to see who/when/if the BMR Philharmonitor will be available in one or more forms of a DIY kit, I'd like to see the New Philharmonitor and even the mini-Phils in kit form. It seems to me these are perfectly suited for surround use in a high-quality multi-channel music system. Well, one can dream, can't one?
If you can't wait: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...l#post58226044

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post #8993 of 9293 Old 07-01-2019, 08:16 AM
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Dennis, a question I would like to ask...is it possible to build a really good sounding tower loudspeaker if all of the drives are inexpensive (say below $50 each as an example)....or is it a case of "you get what you pay for"...meaning, better drivers are needed to really end up with a great sounding tower? I realize that the crossover is probably even more critical...but this is more of a question about the performance of inexpensive vs expensive drivers....thanks....
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post #8994 of 9293 Old 07-01-2019, 10:25 AM
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I own a pair of BMR's and love them! I am driving them with an old Carver 806x amp @ 133wpc and an old Adcom GTP-600 preamp. I was looking at replacing my preamp but my wife saw a picture of the Peachtree amplifiers and realized that we could get rid of the nice rack and all of my big stereo equipment if I went that route.


I am looking at either the Decco 125 Sky or Nova 150 models. I would assume that they should be able to drive the BMR's easily, is that a correct assumption? The units seem so small that I find it hard they would do as good of a job as my 50 lb Carver :-).


99% of the music I listed to is via Spotify, that is why the Decco Sky looks attractive, but I do have a bluetooth adapter that I could plug into the Nova 150.


Any advice or guidance on how the BMR's play with the little Peachtree amps would be appreciated.
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post #8995 of 9293 Old 07-01-2019, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by minatophase3 View Post
I own a pair of BMR's and love them! I am driving them with an old Carver 806x amp @ 133wpc and an old Adcom GTP-600 preamp. I was looking at replacing my preamp but my wife saw a picture of the Peachtree amplifiers and realized that we could get rid of the nice rack and all of my big stereo equipment if I went that route.


I am looking at either the Decco 125 Sky or Nova 150 models. I would assume that they should be able to drive the BMR's easily, is that a correct assumption? The units seem so small that I find it hard they would do as good of a job as my 50 lb Carver :-).


99% of the music I listed to is via Spotify, that is why the Decco Sky looks attractive, but I do have a bluetooth adapter that I could plug into the Nova 150.


Any advice or guidance on how the BMR's play with the little Peachtree amps would be appreciated.

They are class D amps...that's why so small.

People definitely have opinions about class D, but IMO the modern versions are getting pretty good.
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post #8996 of 9293 Old 07-01-2019, 11:43 AM
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They are class D amps...that's why so small.

People definitely have opinions about class D, but IMO the modern versions are getting pretty good.

Do the Class D amps give the music a different sound signature than what ever my Carver 806x is (I assume class A or B)? I really like the way my current system sounds but want a newer preamp. My wife likes the small size of the Peachtree, but I would rather get a new preamp and keep the Carver amp if the Peachtree wouldn't sound as good. I have never heard one in person.

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post #8997 of 9293 Old 07-01-2019, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by RN2013 View Post
Dennis, a question I would like to ask...is it possible to build a really good sounding tower loudspeaker if all of the drives are inexpensive (say below $50 each as an example)....or is it a case of "you get what you pay for"...meaning, better drivers are needed to really end up with a great sounding tower? I realize that the crossover is probably even more critical...but this is more of a question about the performance of inexpensive vs expensive drivers....thanks....
Not Dennis, but the answer is definitely no, high-end drivers are not required. Matching and design of the system is far more important. Dennis proved that with many of his speakers, and there are other examples of relatively inexpensive components being matched and put through a comprehensive design process to make something unique and more than the sum of its parts.
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post #8998 of 9293 Old 07-01-2019, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by RN2013 View Post
Dennis, a question I would like to ask...is it possible to build a really good sounding tower loudspeaker if all of the drives are inexpensive (say below $50 each as an example)....or is it a case of "you get what you pay for"...meaning, better drivers are needed to really end up with a great sounding tower? I realize that the crossover is probably even more critical...but this is more of a question about the performance of inexpensive vs expensive drivers....thanks....
Well, I just did a crossover mod to the Monoprice $140/pr minitowers, and they sound really good. Not a lot of bass extension, but otherwise they're very clean and balanced. You should certainly be able to design a first class tower with a budget limit of $50 per driver. Seas has lots of fine tweeters in the $30-$40 range, and there are many smooth 3"-4" midranges that would fit within the budget (like the $18 BMR). You should be able to save enough on those drivers to spend a bit more on the woofers. The crossovers wouldn't be cheap, and there's always the cabinet price, but the driver component doesn't need to be all that expensive. You could certainly get even better sound and deeper bass by spending more on the drivers, but you will run into steeply diminishing returns very quickly.
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post #8999 of 9293 Old 07-01-2019, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by minatophase3 View Post
Do the Class D amps give the music a different sound signature than what ever my Carver 806x is (I assume class A or B)? I really like the way my current system sounds but want a newer preamp. My wife likes the small size of the Peachtree, but I would rather get a new preamp and keep the Carver amp if the Peachtree wouldn't sound as good. I have never heard one in person.
That other site recently did a review of the new ATIs and cross compared the AB and D options here. Interesting read. The associated forum thread has some further discussion too, if you wish to dig deeper.
It seems like the generalization of Amps coloring sound quality may have some validity. I have previously been of the school that at a certain level, they should all sound pretty neutral. Though there are no associated measurements, unfortunately, the author did hear differences between the two. As to whether the Peachtrees work well for your situation, only you can decide.
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post #9000 of 9293 Old 07-01-2019, 03:31 PM
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Drivers definitely matter, but they most certainly aren't the full story. Consider Dennis's 2-way bookshelf speakers.

As noted earlier in this thread, the AAMs used really cheap bass drivers (~$20 retail) and I can tell you, they have no trouble reproducing decent bass. I mean, yes, sure, not super high-end in terms of things like transient resolution, but until Dennis said what they were, I would never have guessed the bass driver was that inexpensive.

And while the "New Philharmonitor" that used ScanSpeak woofer that retails for around $200 each, its little brother the "Mini Philharmonitor" uses a Zaph woofer that retails for a mere $50. According to the Philharmonic web site, the primary difference between the two speakers is bass extension—the Mini is designed to be a satellite speaker, so bass extension is not a major concern there.

So if you want to build a nice 3-way speaker, I'm guessing if you got a decent 7" or 8" woofer—say the entry-level 7" ScanSpeak for $70 retail—you could find a good $40 Seas tweeter, use the Zaph or maybe a similar 4" woofer as your mid, and you could get a pretty good speaker for around $150-160 in drivers. Find a good cabinet (8" wide Denovo MDF flat-pack for $70 on Parts Express—pretty loose on definition of "good" maybe more like "passable"), get someone like Dennis or DaveF to design the crossovers (definitely not trivial), and you could probably put together a really nice speaker. Someone would have to work out the port design on the cabinet, too, and then there's finishing it and parts for the crossovers, but I'm betting this could be pretty competitive with typical $1500/pair towers from {choose a decent big-name brand here}. And it'd probably be even better with upgraded drivers (but then of course you'd need to redesign the crossovers).

Now, of course, it probably wouldn't be in the same class as, say, the BMR or the Ascend Sierra since one of the stars of the show there is the RAAL tweeter, which I'm pretty sure you can't get for $50/pop. What does a RAAL 64-10 go for these days? $100-200 each? Not sure.
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