Philharmonic Audio - Dennis Murphy - Page 303 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #9061 of 9103 Old 07-11-2019, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by jomartz View Post
Thank you very much for the video. It more than answered the question about MDF vs Plywood, buy leaves open the one about wood.

Actually, even better would be bamboo.

Ascend Acoustics only uses bamboo for their Sierra line as it’s the best and Dave doesn’t settle for less when it comes to his speakers

It’s much quieter than both MDF and Plywood.
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Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #9062 of 9103 Old 07-11-2019, 01:50 PM
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Question for Dennis: what size speaker stands do you recommend for the BMR's, 20" or 24"?
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post #9063 of 9103 Old 07-11-2019, 01:56 PM
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Question for Dennis: what size speaker stands do you recommend for the BMR's, 20" or 24"?
I'm not Dennis (by a long shot ), but if your goal is to have the tweeter at ear level, pick the stand that allows for the 15-3/4" height of the center of the Raal on the BMR to be as close to your ear level as possible. IIRC, he also recommends being off axis by about 15º, and I'm certain an inch or two off on height won't hurt anything.

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post #9064 of 9103 Old 07-11-2019, 02:04 PM
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Question for Dennis: what size speaker stands do you recommend for the BMR's, 20" or 24"?
18" - 22" You just want to get the tweeter on axis or a little below.
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post #9065 of 9103 Old 07-11-2019, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
It was a cool video to watch. We had a thread going on that other site for a while, here.
I really liked his suggestion about laminating two pieces of High Quality Plywood. I'm going to experiment with that one day!


On another note, I found it really interesting how he supports using a design for a Transmission Line that even Voigt, the designer, didn't really recommend. A Flared Tube like that with a closed end cross-sectional area (So) of Zero has many inherent flaws regarding the final acoustic performance of the line. Creating an So of 1, flaring out to whichever Sl (open end cross-sectional area) you choose in ratio (1:3, 1:4, etc) alleviates some of those problems. Also worthy of note is that a Flared line needs to be longer than a Straight or Tapered line. It will offer the lowest F3 and highest output, but will also have the more resonance issues to clean up. The opposite is true for the Tapered Line with a larger So:Sl ratio: it will a shorter line and have a slightly higher F3 and lower output; the resonances will be easier to deal with as well. Straight Lines are in between.
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7.2: Marantz SR6012, Outlaw Model 2200 (L/C/R/SL/SR)
Philharmonic Phil 3 (L//R), BMR (C), BMR (SL/SR), Mini-Phil (RL/RR), Outlaw X-13
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post #9066 of 9103 Old 07-11-2019, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by jcalifornia View Post
Question for Dennis: what size speaker stands do you recommend for the BMR's, 20" or 24"?
I have them on 24" Pangea stands, which puts the tweeters just a smidge above seated ear level for me (basically, if I sit dead straight upright with no slouching, tweeters are at ear level). If I were to get new stands, I would definitely go a bit shorter. 20" - 22" would probably be perfect for someone my height (6'1, seated in a recliner).
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post #9067 of 9103 Old 07-11-2019, 02:53 PM
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I have them on 24" Pangea stands, which puts the tweeters just a smidge above seated ear level for me (basically, if I sit dead straight upright with no slouching, tweeters are at ear level). If I were to get new stands, I would definitely go a bit shorter. 20" - 22" would probably be perfect for someone my height (6'1, seated in a recliner).
Point of comparison: I'm 6'-3" and sit very upright; my ears are at about 49"H when seated. I needed stands at about 32"H + a monitor pad. I chose VTI RF speaker stands, avvailable in 19, 24, 29, and 36".


Best,
R

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post #9068 of 9103 Old 07-11-2019, 02:57 PM
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Right now I am using my KEF q200c and it does well for movies/TV. I don't listen to as much music in 5.1 as I was because my office now has speakers. I know those are discontinued and never were cheap, but I got a pretty good deal on mine used. I'm still thinking about that Ascend Luna Duo, but not sure if I should be spending more....maybe if I sold some of all of these speakers hanging around these days.
if you're happy with the Q200C I'd just keep it...I really don't think HT requires the extra level(s) of subtlety and performance that music does, especially the center speaker.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #9069 of 9103 Old 07-12-2019, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by basketcase14240 View Post
So what do you guys think would be the value king replacement right now of the BMR?

I'm on a tight budget and looking for my first high-end speaker, was going to get the BMR..now I'm not sure what to get. Looking for something that will perform well with off-axis listening and won't require a Sub.

Things I'm considering:
* Waiting until DIY build for BMR becomes available (never done DIY before, but I've heard it's not difficult?)
* I've heard Ascend is working on an improved Sierra 2 that will have never before seen levels of bass on a bookshelf. (Though I'm not sure what the price would be on this..with comment like that it's tempting)
*LS50-W, I found a store selling the floor model for $1600

Any other options I should throw on this list for consideration?
Interesting considerations. I'm actually considering some of the same for a 2 channel system in my Living room. I was set on either the KEF LS50W (I heard these) or the BMR (I've never heard these) mated with a PrimaLuna tube integrated and a streaming device. I have time and little cash right now so ......I'm waiting to see what is going to happen as far as DIY kits for the BMR. I've been wanting to do a DIY project for years now.

In the mean time a wireless set has come to my attention that I would like to try, the Edifier S3000Pro.
https://www.edifier.com/us/en/speakers/s3000pro
https://www.avforums.com/review/edif...r-review.16122
https://bgr.com/2019/05/27/best-wireless-speakers-2019/
https://www.amazon.com/Edifier-S3000...gateway&sr=8-1
https://www.amazon.com/Edifier-S3000...gateway&sr=8-2


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post #9070 of 9103 Old 07-12-2019, 01:59 PM
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Interesting considerations. I'm actually considering some of the same for a 2 channel system in my Living room. I was set on either the KEF LS50W (I heard these) or the BMR (I've never heard these) mated with a PrimaLuna tube integrated and a streaming device. I have time and little cash right now so ......I'm waiting to see what is going to happen as far as DIY kits for the BMR. I've been wanting to do a DIY project for years now.



In the mean time a wireless set has come to my attention that I would like to try, the Edifier S3000Pro.

https://www.edifier.com/us/en/speakers/s3000pro

https://www.avforums.com/review/edif...r-review.16122

https://bgr.com/2019/05/27/best-wireless-speakers-2019/

https://www.amazon.com/Edifier-S3000...gateway&sr=8-1

https://www.amazon.com/Edifier-S3000...gateway&sr=8-2



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxuYSqCgqTY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoC9sj2YBxc


I can tell you the LS50w is not as good as the BMR and a good at least 80+wpc amp.

Also, I tried the BMR’s with a Prima Luna Prologue 4 and it was NOT a good match. The tube amp just doesn’t have enough power.

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post #9071 of 9103 Old 07-12-2019, 03:38 PM
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Someone who was looking for a BMR alternative and can't wait to see what happens with the DIY route needs to buy these - https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=164061.0. Originally posted at $1500, the seller has dropped down to $1100 and I am SORELY tempted just to try them given Rick's reputation (and my daughter still working on the cabinet for my center). Selah Audio Fedele in gloss black cabs. Scanspeak beryllium tweeter; SB Acoustics Satori Mid; SB Acoustics Rohacell Woofer.
These finally sold. Did someone here buy them? If so, I'd LOVE to hear what you think of them once you get them. If they'd been available at this price a few months back...

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I can tell you the LS50w is not as good as the BMR and a good at least 80+wpc amp. Also, I tried the BMR’s with a Prima Luna Prologue 4 and it was NOT a good match. The tube amp just doesn’t have enough power.
Wow, that's interesting and good feedback given all of the cases of Primaluna driving Dynaudio, etc. What did you end up using to power them? I've also wanted to own the Vincent Audio SV-237MK Hybrid integrated that's rated for 2x150W @ 8 Ohms / 250W @4 Ohms. maybe that would be a better unit?

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post #9073 of 9103 Old 07-12-2019, 05:17 PM
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Wow, that's interesting and good feedback given all of the cases of Primaluna driving Dynaudio, etc. What did you end up using to power them? I've also wanted to own the Vincent Audio SV-237MK Hybrid integrated that's rated for 2x150W @ 8 Ohms / 250W @4 Ohms. maybe that would be a better unit?


A NAD C368 worked well with 80wpc. A Rogue Audio Sphinx or Schiit Vidar worked better.

That Vincent with 150wpc should work just fine.

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post #9074 of 9103 Old 07-12-2019, 05:25 PM
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I have been listening to my BMRs since early May and originally the BMR’s were definitely more pleasing to listen to then my DIY Statement Monitors. I have several project going on with deciding which amplifier to settle on in my main system and I also purchased a vintage Sansui AU-819 integrated amplifier and also in the process of replacing the big filter capacitors and most other electrolytic capacitors so my focus has been all over the place.

I also had used some higher quality midranges and varied off design on my Statement Monitors and they were just too hot and forward inntje midrange. After adjusting the midrange crossover per the designers recommendations, the Statement Monitors with vita NE 123 mids are back in consideration. Not to knock either speaker but it’s really close right now between the two. The Statement Monitors use a 7” Dayton RS 180-4 and for my taste the bass is more to my liking. Now I realize ScanSpeak is better than dayton on paper but maybe for 600 hz on down the Dayton are sleepers especially if you can go a little bigger on volume. Maybe the BMR’s are tighter or more accurate or maybe not but I definitely hear a difference in the bass on the same songs especially that deep him and decay. I’m still doing comparisons but just wanted to give my feedback so far and let people know that for 750 to 800 and some serious labor you can achieve good speakers. Will report more as I continue to listen to more material.
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post #9075 of 9103 Old 07-12-2019, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Zorba922 View Post
if you're happy with the Q200C I'd just keep it...I really don't think HT requires the extra level(s) of subtlety and performance that music does, especially the center speaker.
I think that part of me just wants a more 'matching' center (although that Ascend isn't truly a match either) just to have. Last night I listened to some music in all channel stereo just for the hell of it, and I do have to say I didn't hear any glaring difference in sound. I probably will stick with the KEF center for awhile. Maybe some day I move that upstairs, but honestly we barely use the upstairs speakers for any TV or movies, so a center really isn't necessary. Plus I just have too many speakers already. Need to sell....
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Meniscus has the Statement Monitors kit for $661, but that is with the tang band mid. My opinion is the vifa mid is superior and worth the substitution so you can source it out. Not sure meniscus will substitute. By the time you buy mdf and veneer you are at 900. Then there is the labor.

Curious to see what the pricing is on BMR kits. Knowing what I know about quality DIY kits, there are plenty of options and I’m pretty sure Rick at Selah will deliver something as good or better for good value. The BMRs a completed product shipped for 1500 is exceptional value. Regardless everyone’s unique preferences and hearing, I feel safe saying it is a remarkable value.
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post #9077 of 9103 Old 07-12-2019, 08:17 PM
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what speaker would that Salk has has would be compatible to Ascend Sierra Tower? and the Horizon speaker.
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post #9078 of 9103 Old 07-12-2019, 08:41 PM
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what speaker would that Salk has has would be compatible to Ascend Sierra Tower? and the Horizon speaker.
I would start at the Song3 and matching Song3 Center.
The Supercharged Song Tower would also be a worthy competitor as a 2-way TL. It's matching Center.



If budget was stretchable: Veracity HT1 and HT2C.






It's also been my experience that talking to Jim over phone and email is very informative for helping identify needs and answering questions!

7.2: Marantz SR6012, Outlaw Model 2200 (L/C/R/SL/SR)
Philharmonic Phil 3 (L//R), BMR (C), BMR (SL/SR), Mini-Phil (RL/RR), Outlaw X-13
Sony XBR49X900F, Sony UBPX700
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I would start at the Song3 and matching Song3 Center.
The Supercharged Song Tower would also be a worthy competitor as a 2-way TL. It's matching Center.



If budget was stretchable: Veracity HT1 and HT2C.






It's also been my experience that talking to Jim over phone and email is very informative for helping identify needs and answering questions!
K thanks
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post #9080 of 9103 Old 07-13-2019, 08:40 AM
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I think that part of me just wants a more 'matching' center (although that Ascend isn't truly a match either) just to have. Last night I listened to some music in all channel stereo just for the hell of it, and I do have to say I didn't hear any glaring difference in sound. I probably will stick with the KEF center for awhile. Maybe some day I move that upstairs, but honestly we barely use the upstairs speakers for any TV or movies, so a center really isn't necessary. Plus I just have too many speakers already. Need to sell....
don't get in a hurry.. the answer will present itself in time , they always do... nothing worse in a purchase than a "wish i had waited".. and it's usually not very long

YAMAHA TSR 5790.. front l/r emotiva b1's and /or kef q100's ..BIC v1220.....Emotiva basx10.... ascend cbm 170 center.. polk t15 rears..samsung 55" j620d
bedroom .. YAMAHA r-xv 383... front l/r.. wharfedale 10.1s... ascend cbm 170 center ... Emotiva basx8... samsung ku6300 50 in
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post #9081 of 9103 Old 07-13-2019, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by LADIY View Post
I have been listening to my BMRs since early May and originally the BMR’s were definitely more pleasing to listen to then my DIY Statement Monitors. I have several project going on with deciding which amplifier to settle on in my main system and I also purchased a vintage Sansui AU-819 integrated amplifier and also in the process of replacing the big filter capacitors and most other electrolytic capacitors so my focus has been all over the place.

I also had used some higher quality midranges and varied off design on my Statement Monitors and they were just too hot and forward inntje midrange. After adjusting the midrange crossover per the designers recommendations, the Statement Monitors with vita NE 123 mids are back in consideration. Not to knock either speaker but it’s really close right now between the two. The Statement Monitors use a 7” Dayton RS 180-4 and for my taste the bass is more to my liking. Now I realize ScanSpeak is better than dayton on paper but maybe for 600 hz on down the Dayton are sleepers especially if you can go a little bigger on volume. Maybe the BMR’s are tighter or more accurate or maybe not but I definitely hear a difference in the bass on the same songs especially that deep him and decay. I’m still doing comparisons but just wanted to give my feedback so far and let people know that for 750 to 800 and some serious labor you can achieve good speakers. Will report more as I continue to listen to more material.
Wow, more interesting feedback. The Statement II towers and Center have been on my want to build list since the design came out. I think I gave up on the idea of going all out on my theater system. My Boston speakers are fine for now....and I have an eye on the JBL Studio 580's that are on sale.

However, for my 2 ch room quest, I want a stand mounted DIY monitor speaker with a ribbon tweeter and sweet midrange. Wanting patiently to see how/if this BMR project develops.

HDTV - Sharp AQUOS LC-70LE600U 70" | AVR- Anthem MRX 300 | Media Player - Fire TV Box 2nd Gen | Blu-Ray/Media/Gaming - PS3-320GB / Xbox One
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post #9082 of 9103 Old 07-13-2019, 09:42 AM
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Wow, more interesting feedback. The Statement II towers and Center have been on my want to build list since the design came out. I think I gave up on the idea of going all out on my theater system. My Boston speakers are fine for now....and I have an eye on the JBL Studio 580's that are on sale.

However, for my 2 ch room quest, I want a stand mounted DIY monitor speaker with a ribbon tweeter and sweet midrange. Wanting patiently to see how/if this BMR project develops.
I'm waiting as well, perhaps not so patiently. I don't seem to be able to get price estimates from my potential kit suppliers.
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post #9083 of 9103 Old 07-13-2019, 09:46 AM
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The statement II use the same midrange I used and that speaker would be very very good. If you have that kind of space and the build would be more involved. They say the finalist are a step up from the Statement Monitors also. But I can assure you the statement Monitors are very good with the vifa midrange. I used Dayton capacitors also so no expensive capacitors.
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post #9084 of 9103 Old 07-14-2019, 02:00 PM
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Thank you very much for the video. It more than answered the question about MDF vs Plywood, buy leaves open the one about wood.
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Actually, even better would be bamboo.

Ascend Acoustics only uses bamboo for their Sierra line as it’s the best and Dave doesn’t settle for less when it comes to his speakers

It’s much quieter than both MDF and Plywood.
I have zero interest in watching that one hour video, so I will add my two cents.

There are several materials out there, but how many make a real difference in a properly constructed box? Would 3/4" bamboo be as good as a multi braced 2" thick MDF?

IIRC George Short of North Creek first talked about laminating MDF and plywood together to make a cabinet. That was like 20 years ago.

If you really want to try something different then make a cabinet out of concrete. I made my kitchen counters out of concrete.

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post #9085 of 9103 Old 07-14-2019, 02:01 PM
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I'm waiting as well, perhaps not so patiently. I don't seem to be able to get price estimates from my potential kit suppliers.
How many potential suppliers have you spoken with if you don't mind me asking?

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post #9086 of 9103 Old 07-14-2019, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post
I have zero interest in watching that one hour video, so I will add my two cents.

There are several materials out there, but how many make a real difference in a properly constructed box? Would 3/4" bamboo be as good as a multi braced 2" thick MDF?

IIRC George Short of North Creek first talked about laminating MDF and plywood together to make a cabinet. That was like 20 years ago.

If you really want to try something different then make a cabinet out of concrete. I made my kitchen counters out of concrete.
It's a very interesting video and worth the watch if you get the time. It showed that 1) plywood was far better than MDF, and 2) you can further reduce resonances by gluing two pieces together with certain substances.

For contrast, I will add a recent comment by Floyd Toole:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
"The knuckle rap test reveals a very dead cabinet." The knuckle test is not a reliable test because it is a point excitation of a panel. In reality the well-distributed pressure within the cabinet does the excitation. I well remember a Japanese manufacturer showing me, while on a factory tour (before I joined Harman and became a competitor), that they poured about an inch of concrete into the top of every box so that customers would be impressed by the almost inevitable knuckle test .

What matters is the sound radiated from panels, not movement of the panels - and this is measured in spinoramas. Some panel modes allow considerable movement, but the sound radiated from different portions cancel each other. So a knuckle test, or an accelerometer placed at one location cannot reveal what a panel will radiate. It is understanding this that allows good engineers to strategically place internal bracing to eliminate bothersome modes while not spending materials or mass addressing innocent ones. Enclosures do not need to be "inert", only acoustically "quiet". But when marketing gets into the act we get monster massive boxes whether they are needed or not. It is good for imaginations though.

The most serious resonances are most often associated with the drivers.

"I ask because I've never seen a Spin on an angled ceiling speaker.". Nor have I, because that requires a special 2-pi anechoic chamber. One such chamber is currently being built at Harman because of the popularity of in/on-wall/ceiling speakers. However, I am not at all disturbed by this because experienced engineers can anticipate the important performance factors from conventional anechoic data. Resonances are not an issue if high-performing transducers are used and directivity can be measured or inferred from other anechoic data. Subjective evaluations make the final decision, as always.

More research can always be imagined, but having done it for several decades it is clear that it takes competent subjective & objective evaluation facilities ($$$$), skilled/educated staff ($$$$), and time ($$$$). We can always hope for a scientific "sugar daddy" I suppose But these days money seems not to be drifting in the direction of research that benefits consumers.
This does not mean that the methods in the video don't also properly reduce resonances, it just means a knock isn't the proper method to test that.

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post #9087 of 9103 Old 07-14-2019, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post
I have zero interest in watching that one hour video, so I will add my two cents.



There are several materials out there, but how many make a real difference in a properly constructed box? Would 3/4" bamboo be as good as a multi braced 2" thick MDF?



IIRC George Short of North Creek first talked about laminating MDF and plywood together to make a cabinet. That was like 20 years ago.



If you really want to try something different then make a cabinet out of concrete. I made my kitchen counters out of concrete.

Following what @Soulburner said, the material used in between two different woods can really help reduce resonances and inner noise escaping through the cabinet. See green glue used in soundproofing theaters for an example.

On the other side, yes I would believe that 3/4” bamboo would actually be “better” than 2” braced MDF.

I was actually at Ascend Acoustics HQ last Friday. Dave is such a great person. I’ll have to post about my visit soon.

He handed me a 12”x12” board of 22mm (IIRC) thick bamboo (Similar to what he uses in his Sierra cabinets). Feeling around the board, rapping it a couple times and attempting to flex it. Other than the sound it made when I whacked it, you would have thought it was concrete. MDF felt like a piece of bark ripped off a tree compared to this.

Solid.

I’ve had a panel of 1.5” MDF that was glued with subfloor adhesive (very very very sticky, one of my favorite jackets is now ruined because of it).

Slightly more solid.

Now someone brought up a great topic in another thread. Solidness vs Resonance vs actual sound produced by the cabinet. I don’t have enough experience in this area having built only couple cabinets. All I know is that there are no hard rules or equations when it comes to cabinets. Perhaps some more experienced builders can shed some light on this.

But I know that Bamboo has very unique dampening properties that make it very attractive to use for speaker cabinets.
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Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #9088 of 9103 Old 07-15-2019, 09:03 AM
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I know no one makes speakers out of real wood anymore, but when I was in high school in the late 1970s, yes, I am old, I made a pair of speakers from some cherry wood my grandfather had rescue from trees being taken out for farm land. Now, I was a HS kids, so I made the speaker cabinets and put in cheap drivers and crossovers, so the speaker weren't great, but those were some solid cabinets. I wonder how they would have compared to bamboo or plywood or MDF, assuming I have the knowledge of a guy like Dennis in speaker design and those pure cherry wood cabinets...wait, I was in HS, I was thinking about girls!

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post #9089 of 9103 Old 07-15-2019, 05:35 PM
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Dennis,

Curious if you remember or not, but what were your feelings on the Pioneer BS-22's with the Tymphany BC tweeter upgrade with the 4uF cap on it?

Have a friend who likes his BS-22's but doesn't like the highs in some situations and I thought I remembered this being a decent and easy end-user upgrade (but not as good as the xover upgrade that you used to do to them).
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post #9090 of 9103 Old 07-15-2019, 07:48 PM
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I think, and Dennis will correct me if I am wrong, he was using a Vifa 1" silk dome tweeter to replace the original...maybe something like this?
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.co...-dome-tweeter/

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