Philharmonic Audio - Dennis Murphy - Page 304 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #9091 of 9163 Old 07-15-2019, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post
I think, and Dennis will correct me if I am wrong, he was using a Vifa 1" silk dome tweeter to replace the original...maybe something like this?
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.co...-dome-tweeter/
Those are the same tweeter under different labels. I remember the simple mod, but I can't remember exactly how I implemented it. I've searched for relevant posts and haven't found anything yet. I'll try again tomorrow. I do remember that the sound was a little better than with the stock tweeter and crossover, but not as good as the full mod by a significant margin.
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post #9092 of 9163 Old 07-16-2019, 03:44 AM
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I know no one makes speakers out of real wood anymore, but when I was in high school in the late 1970s, yes, I am old,
Old? Why, you're just a young punk!
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post #9093 of 9163 Old 07-16-2019, 05:56 AM
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Old? Why, you're just a young punk!
Okay, well don't drain the all the social security before I get there!
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post #9094 of 9163 Old 07-16-2019, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by PhilharmonicDennis View Post
Those are the same tweeter under different labels. I remember the simple mod, but I can't remember exactly how I implemented it. I've searched for relevant posts and haven't found anything yet. I'll try again tomorrow. I do remember that the sound was a little better than with the stock tweeter and crossover, but not as good as the full mod by a significant margin.

I did a quick search to see if I could find the old thread where you were talking about this and I think this is it:

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=113182.520

You mention the 4uF cap and the Tymphany BC tweeter.
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post #9095 of 9163 Old 07-16-2019, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by _tk View Post
I did a quick search to see if I could find the old thread where you were talking about this and I think this is it:

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=113182.520

You mention the 4uF cap and the Tymphany BC tweeter.
Thanks very much. I'll have to compare that graph with my BS22 files. I'm not sure that adding a cap as the last component works as well as placing it before the resistor L-pad. Back at you.
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post #9096 of 9163 Old 07-16-2019, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by PhilharmonicDennis View Post
Thanks very much. I'll have to compare that graph with my BS22 files. I'm not sure that adding a cap as the last component works as well as placing it before the resistor L-pad. Back at you.
OK--I've straightened everything out. I just had to find the right file. The graph I posted for the simple mod does place the 4.0 uf (or 3.9 uf for some brands) as the last component. And there's no need to clip any resistors on the board. I had misread the resistor circuit. I caught the error before I sold the fully modified BS22. So all you have to do is order up the replacement tweeters, unscrew and throw away the stock tweeter, wire in the added capacitor a little before the positive tweeter terminal, and screw in the new tweets. The mid-highs wont have as much presence as with the full mod, but it will be a definite step up from the stock speaker.
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post #9097 of 9163 Old 07-17-2019, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by PhilharmonicDennis View Post
OK--I've straightened everything out. I just had to find the right file. The graph I posted for the simple mod does place the 4.0 uf (or 3.9 uf for some brands) as the last component. And there's no need to clip any resistors on the board. I had misread the resistor circuit. I caught the error before I sold the fully modified BS22. So all you have to do is order up the replacement tweeters, unscrew and throw away the stock tweeter, wire in the added capacitor a little before the positive tweeter terminal, and screw in the new tweets. The mid-highs wont have as much presence as with the full mod, but it will be a definite step up from the stock speaker.

Thanks for the help with that. I have a pair of BS-22's as well (currently my son is using them) and I may try it for myself first as the cost isn't really all that much. I'm a fan of a warmer, laid back speaker anyways so this may actually suit my tastes pretty well.
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post #9098 of 9163 Old 07-17-2019, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by _tk View Post
Thanks for the help with that. I have a pair of BS-22's as well (currently my son is using them) and I may try it for myself first as the cost isn't really all that much. I'm a fan of a warmer, laid back speaker anyways so this may actually suit my tastes pretty well.
I also found bracing the cabinet (wedging some dowels inside, side to side) and adding some non-drying clay to the inside front baffle as well as the woofer metal basket, reduces the vibrations - at loud levels - and makes it sound much smoother.
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post #9099 of 9163 Old 07-18-2019, 11:21 AM
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I also found bracing the cabinet (wedging some dowels inside, side to side) and adding some non-drying clay to the inside front baffle as well as the woofer metal basket, reduces the vibrations - at loud levels - and makes it sound much smoother.
I never found the curved cabs of the BS-22's to be all that bad. It's the tweeter that needs the help...everything else is really good for the pricepoint.
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post #9100 of 9163 Old 07-20-2019, 03:11 PM
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Pioneer SP-BS22: I would suggest going ahead and doing the full modification as described in MCM_Fan's thread on Audiocircle. You will end up with a speaker measuring as attached. Low end extension is somewhat better than shown, these measurements were done open air and do not include the port contribution, so 200 Hz and below not very accurate. Typical Dennis Murphy sound: accurate and natural, very pleasing to the ear. Far better than stock.
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post #9101 of 9163 Old 07-20-2019, 03:28 PM
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There's also a Song Center channel speaker for sale there on Audiocircle. (You'll need a few posts first before being able to contact the person.)

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=164757.0
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post #9102 of 9163 Old 07-22-2019, 01:03 PM
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Hi Dennis

For those of us who have the AA monitors, is there an upgrade kit for the crossover and morel tweet?
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post #9103 of 9163 Old 07-22-2019, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by edzyy View Post
Hi Dennis

For those of us who have the AA monitors, is there an upgrade kit for the crossover and morel tweet?
I don't have a kit on the front or back burners. It would basically require an entirely new crossover board and a very expensive tweeter. There would be some improvement in the highs, but not enough to justify the expense and labor.
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post #9104 of 9163 Old 07-29-2019, 08:25 AM
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I would love to hear more discussion about cabinet types (woods versus MDF, etc) and affects on sound...from Dennis, some of you DIYers, etc!
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post #9105 of 9163 Old 07-29-2019, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post
I would love to hear more discussion about cabinet types (woods versus MDF, etc) and affects on sound...from Dennis, some of you DIYers, etc!
I thought this post excerpt from another thread would be useful here:

Quote:
"The knuckle rap test reveals a very dead cabinet." The knuckle test is not a reliable test because it is a point excitation of a panel. In reality the well-distributed pressure within the cabinet does the excitation. I well remember a Japanese manufacturer showing me, while on a factory tour (before I joined Harman and became a competitor), that they poured about an inch of concrete into the top of every box so that customers would be impressed by the almost inevitable knuckle test .

What matters is the sound radiated from panels, not movement of the panels - and this is measured in spinoramas. Some panel modes allow considerable movement, but the sound radiated from different portions cancel each other. So a knuckle test, or an accelerometer placed at one location cannot reveal what a panel will radiate. It is understanding this that allows good engineers to strategically place internal bracing to eliminate bothersome modes while not spending materials or mass addressing innocent ones. Enclosures do not need to be "inert", only acoustically "quiet". But when marketing gets into the act we get monster massive boxes whether they are needed or not. It is good for imaginations though.

The most serious resonances are most often associated with the drivers.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...l#post58293038
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post #9106 of 9163 Old 07-29-2019, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post
I thought this post excerpt from another thread would be useful here:


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...l#post58293038
Im sure the knock test isnt the be all end all of cabinet tests. But dont you think that if you knocked on a cabinet and it sounded like the hollow door to your bedroom that would be a bad cabinet? I dont think the knock test is all you need to know to find a good cabinet. The knock test might be all you need to know for a bad one though.
Just my 2 cents
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post #9107 of 9163 Old 07-29-2019, 06:13 PM
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My question is one we touched on earlier...ALMOST no one makes real wood cabinets anymore, but how would a solid walnut cabinet affect sound, compared to a standard mdf cabinet, compared to cheap plastic (yea, you Bose)…
Sounds like you can get real wood from Salk and of course Ascend Acoustic Sierra are bamboo...and I assume a bunch of really high end speaker places, but just wondering how much the quality of the cabinet affects the sound of the cabinet.

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post #9108 of 9163 Old 07-30-2019, 05:40 PM
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hey dennis i have two pair of your aams (not the morel tweeter version)

i am using a couple of 50 watt tube amps with them

although loud enough i dont think im getting the most i can out of the speakers
want more power

the aams can do 100 watts per speaker correct? i dont see that in the specs

im looking at replacing the tube amps with this. will it work better than the 50 watt amps? its rated at 100 watts per channel so 200 watts total for a pair of speakers

https://www.crutchfield.com/S-umpbhl...hoCYacQAvD_BwE
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post #9109 of 9163 Old 07-30-2019, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Boro View Post
Im sure the knock test isnt the be all end all of cabinet tests. But dont you think that if you knocked on a cabinet and it sounded like the hollow door to your bedroom that would be a bad cabinet? I dont think the knock test is all you need to know to find a good cabinet. The knock test might be all you need to know for a bad one though.
Just my 2 cents
Sounds reasonable.

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post #9110 of 9163 Old 07-30-2019, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by mariogonzalezzz View Post
hey dennis i have two pair of your aams (not the morel tweeter version)

i am using a couple of 50 watt tube amps with them

although loud enough i dont think im getting the most i can out of the speakers
want more power

the aams can do 100 watts per speaker correct? i dont see that in the specs

im looking at replacing the tube amps with this. will it work better than the 50 watt amps? its rated at 100 watts per channel so 200 watts total for a pair of speakers

https://www.crutchfield.com/S-umpbhl...hoCYacQAvD_BwE
It's a little difficult to tell exactly what the power output is for that unit. The published power spec is: "100 watts x 2 into 8 ohms (40-20,000 Hz) at 0.2% THD" The .2% distortion rating is only good down to 40 Hz rather than the usual 20 Hz. It may be considerably higher below 40 Hz, although that's not likely to be much of a problem with the AA's given that they're not going to be delivering much bass below 40Hz in any event. The "100 watts X 2" nomenclature could mean that both channels were operating when the power and distortion measurements were being run, but it's more likely that only one channel was operating. Even so, the amplifier probably has enough power to run the AA's satisfactorily unless you need very high output in a large room. Also, I have no idea whether the 50-watt rating for your tube amp is rigorous. I could check that if I knew the model you have.
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post #9111 of 9163 Old 07-30-2019, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by PhilharmonicDennis View Post
It's a little difficult to tell exactly what the power output is for that unit. The published power spec is: "100 watts x 2 into 8 ohms (40-20,000 Hz) at 0.2% THD" The .2% distortion rating is only good down to 40 Hz rather than the usual 20 Hz. It may be considerably higher below 40 Hz, although that's not likely to be much of a problem with the AA's given that they're not going to be delivering much bass below 40Hz in any event. The "100 watts X 2" nomenclature could mean that both channels were operating when the power and distortion measurements were being run, but it's more likely that only one channel was operating. Even so, the amplifier probably has enough power to run the AA's satisfactorily unless you need very high output in a large room. Also, I have no idea whether the 50-watt rating for your tube amp is rigorous. I could check that if I knew the model you have.

this one


https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=16153
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post #9112 of 9163 Old 07-30-2019, 09:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariogonzalezzz View Post
hey dennis i have two pair of your aams (not the morel tweeter version)

i am using a couple of 50 watt tube amps with them

although loud enough i dont think im getting the most i can out of the speakers
want more power

the aams can do 100 watts per speaker correct? i dont see that in the specs

im looking at replacing the tube amps with this. will it work better than the 50 watt amps? its rated at 100 watts per channel so 200 watts total for a pair of speakers

https://www.crutchfield.com/S-umpbhl...hoCYacQAvD_BwE

I had an R-S202. It was an ok amp for the money I suppose. But, don't expect too much for less than $150 and frankly I'd be amazed if that amp truly delivered 100x2. The sound was mostly neutral, which may appeal to some. Didn't do dynamics very well though. Looks and feels like it costs more than $150, which is nice.

Last edited by _tk; 07-30-2019 at 09:45 PM.
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post #9113 of 9163 Old 07-30-2019, 10:43 PM
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Sigh. In another life I enforced the FTC's power rating rule, which made valid comparisons among amplifier power specs possible. It's frustrating to see so many violations of the rule. I have no idea how much power the Monoprice really has. They claim 50 watts per channel and .1% distortion, but no frequency bandwidth for those specs is given, and I can't tell whether the .1% THD spec holds at full output or some lesser output, or whether both channels were running when the measurements were made. They do claim that the frequency response is 20 Hz - 20 kHz, but any amplifier can meet that bandwidth--the issue is how much power and distortion the amplifier can generate over that frequency range.
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post #9114 of 9163 Old 07-31-2019, 09:23 AM
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I had an R-S202. It was an ok amp for the money I suppose. But, don't expect too much for less than $150 and frankly I'd be amazed if that amp truly delivered 100x2. The sound was mostly neutral, which may appeal to some. Didn't do dynamics very well though. Looks and feels like it costs more than $150, which is nice.
yes, I have this Amp as well and a powerhouse, well, it is NOT. Good for the price? Sure, I got mine and a pair of CA Aero speakers for $150 dollars.

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Originally Posted by PhilharmonicDennis View Post

Sigh. In another life I enforced the FTC's power rating rule, which made valid comparisons among amplifier power specs possible. It's frustrating to see so many violations of the rule. I have no idea how much power the Monoprice really has. They claim 50 watts per channel and .1% distortion, but no frequency bandwidth for those specs is given, and I can't tell whether the .1% THD spec holds at full output or some lesser output, or whether both channels were running when the measurements were made. They do claim that the frequency response is 20 Hz - 20 kHz, but any amplifier can meet that bandwidth--the issue is how much power and distortion the amplifier can generate over that frequency range.
Dennis, I have heard the owner of Audioholics go on a rant about power rating as well. I once owner a Pyle pro 2.0 Amp which claimed to have 3000 watts of power...yet it didn't get very loud!?

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post #9116 of 9163 Old 07-31-2019, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post
Dennis, I have heard the owner of Audioholics go on a rant about power rating as well. I once owner a Pyle pro 2.0 Amp which claimed to have 3000 watts of power...yet it didn't get very loud!?
If it doesn't give an RMS rating into two channels with a THD rating, I don't trust it. Or, if it's a multichannel amp, it has to give a similar rating into all channels to mean anything.
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post #9117 of 9163 Old 07-31-2019, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post
Dennis, I have heard the owner of Audioholics go on a rant about power rating as well. I once owner a Pyle pro 2.0 Amp which claimed to have 3000 watts of power...yet it didn't get very loud!?
Right Gene and I will be submitting a white paper on this to the FTC. It's not likely that they'll take any action, but it's worth a try.
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post #9118 of 9163 Old 07-31-2019, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by mariogonzalezzz View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilharmonicDennis View Post

Sigh. In another life I enforced the FTC's power rating rule, which made valid comparisons among amplifier power specs possible. It's frustrating to see so many violations of the rule. I have no idea how much power the Monoprice really has. They claim 50 watts per channel and .1% distortion, but no frequency bandwidth for those specs is given, and I can't tell whether the .1% THD spec holds at full output or some lesser output, or whether both channels were running when the measurements were made. They do claim that the frequency response is 20 Hz - 20 kHz, but any amplifier can meet that bandwidth--the issue is how much power and distortion the amplifier can generate over that frequency range.
This might help:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...tube-amp.7513/
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post #9119 of 9163 Old 07-31-2019, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Gyroscopics View Post
Thanks very much for the link. I didn't understand some of the measurements, but it's clear this isn't a 50 watt amp even if it weren't defective. The situation was worse than I thought. The primary spec is supposed to be maximum power into 8 ohms, not 4 ohms, and that should be watts per channel, not the sum of both channels, which also indicates that only one channel was running. So putting all of this together, my best guess is that maximum continuous power at 1 kHz into 8 ohms would be about 12 watts per channel at something like 1% THD, and over the entire frequency spectrum the power figure would be lower and the THD level much higher. This assumes that the unit was working properly, which appears to be an iffy proposition judging from the owner's experience.
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post #9120 of 9163 Old 08-01-2019, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post
Dennis, I have heard the owner of Audioholics go on a rant about power rating as well. I once owner a Pyle pro 2.0 Amp which claimed to have 3000 watts of power...yet it didn't get very loud!?
lol - I remember decades ago being at a large swap meet where people were selling boomboxes with stickers on them claiming to have 1000 watts of power!
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