Philharmonic Audio - Dennis Murphy - Page 309 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #9241 of 9363 Old 10-01-2019, 07:24 PM
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Ah yes. It was the other ones I was after.
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post #9242 of 9363 Old 10-02-2019, 11:33 PM
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With the exception of the modded pioneer, is there a good center channel to pair with the AA monitors?
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post #9243 of 9363 Old 10-03-2019, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by edzyy View Post
With the exception of the modded pioneer, is there a good center channel to pair with the AA monitors?
I have very little experience with commercial centers, so I hope others will offer an opinion. Taking into account voicing and price, I've found that NHT speakers generally match my voicing fairly closely. Amazon has the MTM and WMTW. You'll have to cross at a minimum of 80 Hz, because these things don't have a lotta bass.
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post #9244 of 9363 Old 10-03-2019, 03:25 PM
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I haven't been on this forum in a while, but I'm glad to see so much activity in this thread. Particularly glad to see Dennis involved and feeling well!

@PhilharmonicDennis I second the interest in being able to buy a single speaker kit. I've got a BMR pair (looking back a few pages I'm surprised to see how rare they are!) and adding a third for the center has been rattling around in my head for a while.
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post #9245 of 9363 Old 10-03-2019, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by fatbulkexpanse View Post
I haven't been on this forum in a while, but I'm glad to see so much activity in this thread. Particularly glad to see Dennis involved and feeling well!

@PhilharmonicDennis I second the interest in being able to buy a single speaker kit. I've got a BMR pair (looking back a few pages I'm surprised to see how rare they are!) and adding a third for the center has been rattling around in my head for a while.
Since I got back into action, I've designed a dedicated BMR WMTW center. The only problem is that it would have to be bought through Jim, and that means $$ and time. I think it sounds great, but probably not all that much better than a single BMR on its side, and not at all better if you can mount it vertically.
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post #9246 of 9363 Old 10-03-2019, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by PhilharmonicDennis View Post
Since I got back into action, I've designed a dedicated BMR WMTW center. The only problem is that it would have to be bought through Jim, and that means $$ and time. I think it sounds great, but probably not all that much better than a single BMR on its side, and not at all better if you can mount it vertically.
If I do end up getting a center, my preference would be to try to replicate the L/R as close as possible so that would mean a vertical BMR if I can get my hands on one. I had previously considered getting the Salk center but dragged my feet, and now I'm glad I did (unless a single speaker won't be an option for the kit?).


Thanks for the input!

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post #9247 of 9363 Old 10-04-2019, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by PhilharmonicDennis View Post
Since I got back into action, I've designed a dedicated BMR WMTW center. The only problem is that it would have to be bought through Jim, and that means $$ and time. I think it sounds great, but probably not all that much better than a single BMR on its side, and not at all better if you can mount it vertically.

Hi Dennis,

Is there a suggested width for the proposed center cabinet?

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post #9248 of 9363 Old 10-04-2019, 11:11 AM
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Hi Dennis,

Is there a suggested width for the proposed center cabinet?
It's pretty big: 24" wide, 10" high, and 13" deep. The slotted ports are on the front, which accounts for the 24" width. The tweet and mid are the same as for the regular BMR, but the woofers are the Seas U16. It's about the smoothest woofer out there with very decent bass extension.
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post #9249 of 9363 Old 10-04-2019, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by PhilharmonicDennis View Post
It's pretty big: 24" wide, 10" high, and 13" deep. The slotted ports are on the front, which accounts for the 24" width. The tweet and mid are the same as for the regular BMR, but the woofers are the Seas U16. It's about the smoothest woofer out there with very decent bass extension.

I'll bet it's a good one, Dennis...and probably a match for my Phil2's, as well. I think I'll have to kill my entertainment center for being so small.
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post #9250 of 9363 Old 10-09-2019, 07:17 AM
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Dennis..thanks for the post in the AVS KLH review. I was wondering how a small box could get that loud and hit that low and you basically called out that it can't! Other AVSers have review that speaker and came to the conclusion that the bass wasn't even close to claimed specs...
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post #9251 of 9363 Old 10-09-2019, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post
Dennis..thanks for the post in the AVS KLH review. I was wondering how a small box could get that loud and hit that low and you basically called out that it can't! Other AVSers have review that speaker and came to the conclusion that the bass wasn't even close to claimed specs...
I doubt that I made any headway with imagic. Even though his observations were based on room response rather than anechoic measurements, I hate to see claims put out that a lot of people would construe as substantiating KLH's suspect specs. But I'm not ordering no more freaking loudspeakers to check all of this out. So many speakers I have.
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post #9252 of 9363 Old 10-09-2019, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by PhilharmonicDennis View Post
I doubt that I made any headway with imagic. Even though his observations were based on room response rather than anechoic measurements, I hate to see claims put out that a lot of people would construe as substantiating KLH's suspect specs. But I'm not ordering no more freaking loudspeakers to check all of this out. So many speakers I have.
you are gonna have to start craigslisting the speakers you are ordering ...at least you know the b1's have a happy home.... edit:i kind of wanted to get imagic in a discussion about why so many companies fudge numbers year after year , everybody knows it , and yet there is a wink wink understanding that the average consumer doesn't matter , to me it devalues the work that you and Dave and others (like Jim Salk) do in being honest and trying to give the customer what he is paying for...
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post #9253 of 9363 Old 10-09-2019, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by PhilharmonicDennis View Post
I doubt that I made any headway with imagic. Even though his observations were based on room response rather than anechoic measurements, I hate to see claims put out that a lot of people would construe as substantiating KLH's suspect specs. But I'm not ordering no more freaking loudspeakers to check all of this out. So many speakers I have.
Henry Kloss is probably rolling in his grave. Looking at the Audioholics groundfield measurement and being familiar with the Scan-Speak woofer I'm curious about the BMR's quoted bass spec ([email protected]). The Audioholics curve shows -3dB @53hz and -10dB @34hz.

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post #9254 of 9363 Old 10-09-2019, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by PhilharmonicDennis View Post
It's pretty big: 24" wide, 10" high, and 13" deep. The slotted ports are on the front, which accounts for the 24" width. The tweet and mid are the same as for the regular BMR, but the woofers are the Seas U16. It's about the smoothest woofer out there with very decent bass extension.

Dennis, sorry if I missed it...can the RAAL in the BMR be turned 90 degrees (to make the BMR a center channel) without need for a crossover or cabinet modification and with no loss of audio quality?

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post #9255 of 9363 Old 10-09-2019, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by PhilharmonicDennis View Post
But I'm not ordering no more freaking loudspeakers to check all of this out. So many speakers I have.


Just post what you have for sale here. There are many fanboys here who would be very happy to scoop up anything you've modified.
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You can even just take a picture of them all (your speakers) with just a short description about it and we'll check it out.
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Sounds like there has been some progress in the KLH thread....

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Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post
Dennis..thanks for the post in the AVS KLH review. I was wondering how a small box could get that loud and hit that low and you basically called out that it can't! Other AVSers have review that speaker and came to the conclusion that the bass wasn't even close to claimed specs...


I tried them. Even in a small office hooked up to a Schiit Vidar, the bass extension was no where near its claimed spec. I didn’t need a measurement to tell me. Was Mark listening to these things in a closet? They sound like part of the speaker is missing. I didn’t care for them at all.
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post #9259 of 9363 Old 10-09-2019, 08:23 PM
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Dennis, sorry if I missed it...can the RAAL in the BMR be turned 90 degrees (to make the BMR a center channel) without need for a crossover or cabinet modification and with no loss of audio quality?
I've sold quite a few single BMR's configured like that for center use. It works very well that way, and I've urged people to opt for that rather than the similarly priced MTM center. The single BMR on its side will have much better off-axis response than the MTM, although it does develop a dip at the crossover point between the mid and tweet when you get far off axis. I've also sold stereo pairs of the horizontal BMR's for clients who couldn't use them vertically because, for example, there were paintings behind the speakers that would have been partially obscured by vertical BMR's. They sounded fine to me.
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post #9260 of 9363 Old 10-09-2019, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Mudslide View Post
Dennis, sorry if I missed it...can the RAAL in the BMR be turned 90 degrees (to make the BMR a center channel) without need for a crossover or cabinet modification and with no loss of audio quality?
Yes, that is the BMR center that I bought last November.
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post #9261 of 9363 Old 10-09-2019, 08:51 PM
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Sounds like there has been some progress in the KLH thread....
Yes--imagic (Mark) did post a series of measurements, and they confirmed that the Albany's actually have very limited bass extension. They also showed that any brightness some people are hearing is most likely due to breakup from the woofer rather an elevated tweeter response, which actually looks very linear and not shelved up.

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post #9262 of 9363 Old 10-09-2019, 10:36 PM
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Henry Kloss is probably rolling in his grave. Looking at the Audioholics groundfield measurement and being familiar with the Scan-Speak woofer I'm curious about the BMR's quoted bass spec ([email protected]). The Audioholics curve shows -3dB @53hz and -10dB @34hz.
The bass spec is taken from modeling done by Paul Kittinger. As I noted in one of my posts on the Albany thread, capturing the true woofer performance in the deep bass is very difficult, and all of the current methods have problems, be they ground plane, nearfield woofer measurements spliced to quasi-anechoic at around 250 Hz, or full range measurements in an anechoic chamber, like those performed by the NRC. Paul and I have had some exchanges with shadyJ concerning his ground plane measurements, and he noted that he may not be picking up the rear port's full output. In any event, shady's qualitative descriptions of the BMR's bass response sure don't seem consistent with a -3dB point of only 53 Hz. For example: "Their bass extension is the best I have seen from a bookshelf speaker, and the bass quality itself is superb much like the rest of the frequency range." "Extraordinarily deep bass extension" "these are bookshelf speakers with the performance goal of having low-frequency extension on par with tower speakers, and with bass extension digging down into the 30 Hz range, they actually exceed many tower speakers in terms of extension.... You cannot get a reasonable level of deep bass output in a small package, and these speakers do an excellent job of providing deep bass output in a reasonable size and shape. I don’t know how that could be done better."
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post #9263 of 9363 Old 10-10-2019, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by PhilharmonicDennis View Post
Yes--imagic (Mark) did post a series of measurements, and they confirmed that the Albany's actually have very limited bass extension. They also showed that any brightness some people are hearing is most likely due to breakup from the woofer rather an elevated tweeter response, which actually looks very linear and not shelved up.
Yes, the narrative has gone from "impressive bass" to mediocre bass pretty quick...

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Yes, the narrative has gone from "impressive bass" to mediocre bass pretty quick...

Narrative went to closed thread even quicker
I'm surprised that some members expect others to let inaccurate information go unquestioned. Might be time to drop the "S" from the name. Back to BMR kits.

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Yes, the narrative has gone from "impressive bass" to mediocre bass pretty quick...

Narrative went to closed thread even quicker [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
I'm surprised that some members expect others to let inaccurate information go unquestioned. Might be time to drop the "S" from the name. Back to BMR kits.
Well, you don't want to offend the wrong people, do you now?

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post #9266 of 9363 Old 10-11-2019, 09:42 AM
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Well, you don't want to offend the wrong people, do you now?
that's very easily done these days , seems speaking truth accelerates the process..i think i may have been offensive without intending to be .. my last post is still up , but several after were deleted...
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post #9267 of 9363 Old 10-11-2019, 10:42 AM
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I went to comment again since I’d heard both (Elac and KLH) at RMAF but it was locked.

I actually liked the KLH more than I expected to but the “deceptive” specs left a bad taste.

Anyway, I wish I had purchased the BMR’s

Too many speakers, so little time. Lol
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post #9268 of 9363 Old 10-11-2019, 11:41 AM
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Narrative went to closed thread even quicker
I'm surprised that some members expect others to let inaccurate information go unquestioned. Might be time to drop the "S" from the name. Back to BMR kits.
I didn't think imagic would be very happy with my initial post, and I gave it a good bit of thought before I questioned his comments on the Albany's bass performance. I don't regret the post, since the AVS threads have a large following and anything that misleading should be called into question. But things did get more personal than I would have liked as the posts accumulated. As for the BMR kit, Meniscus wrote me yesterday saying the bare bones kit (for wood workers only) would be live and kicking today. I haven't see it there yet, but we're within minutes, hours, or a day or two of posting at meniscusaudio.com.

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post #9269 of 9363 Old 10-11-2019, 12:00 PM
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I didn't think imagic would be very happy with my initial post, and I gave it a good bit of thought before I questioned his comments of the Albany's bass performance. I don't regret the post, since the AVS threads have a large following and anything that misleading should be called into question. But things did get more personal than I would have liked as the posts accumulated. As for the BMR kit, Meniscus wrote me yesterday saying the bare bones kit (for wood workers only) would be live and kicking today. I haven't see it there yet, but we're within minutes, hours, or a day or two of posting at meniscusaudio.com.
i think most of us "get it" that imagic sort of has his hands tied a bit.. guys gotta make a living and the industry is where he eats.. i hope he didn't take it all too personally , i don't think anybody blames him for the #'s ( or making a bit of room for fudging).. i for one feel a bit bad , but my intentions were to warn prospective consumers about the prevalence of completely inflated #'s.. i could rifle off at least 3 *major* manufacturers that have been doing it at least a decade...

YAMAHA TSR 5790.. front l/r Dennis Murphy modded emotiva b1's ..BIC v1220.....Emotiva basx10.... infinity alpha 20 center.. polk t15 rears..samsung 55" j620d
bedroom .. YAMAHA r-xv 383... front l/r.. ascend cbm 170 se... kef q100 center ... Emotiva basx8... samsung ku6300 50 in
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post #9270 of 9363 Old 10-11-2019, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Lp85253 View Post
i think most of us "get it" that imagic sort of has his hands tied a bit.. guys gotta make a living and the industry is where he eats.. i hope he didn't take it all too personally , i don't think anybody blames him for the #'s ( or making a bit of room for fudging).. i for one feel a bit bad , but my intentions were to warn prospective consumers about the prevalence of completely inflated #'s.. i could rifle off at least 3 *major* manufacturers that have been doing it at least a decade...
3?! Well, Bose, Klipsch and Def Tech are the worst offenders of the Big boys...but Polk, JBL, GoldenEar, (I won't list them all and some of them on AVS will come at you) etc all post stats that aren't real world accurate...Wait, Bose doesn't post stats, they just post ridiculous claims!

In fact, I think what Imagic posted was more the norm that unusual...sure, those speakers can hit 35 hz...if you hold your ear right up to the speaker, and then, I am told, you can also hear the ocean!
I really like what Shane Rich said about the 1st generation EMP Impression series books, with a 5 1/4 inch woofer...he say, sure, we could tune that thing to hit upper 40s/lower 50s, but when they did it didn't sound very good. So they made the cut off just under 60 hz and said use a subwoofer!
smurraybhm and Lp85253 like this.

Set up #1: EMP e5Ti, e5Ci, and EMP e5Bi surrounds, Outlaw LFM1 Plus sub, SVS NSD SB12 sub, Marantz Slimeline 1504 AV receiver
Set up #2: Def Tech SM450, CLR2002, SLS Qline surrounds and EMPtek10i10i sub, Denon 1910 AV receiver
Set up #3: Philharmonics- BMR in a 2.0 system, music only, Yamaha RXV-363 AV receiver
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