Philharmonic Audio - Dennis Murphy - Page 310 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #9271 of 9356 Old 10-11-2019, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post
3?! Well, Bose, Klipsch and Def Tech are the worst offenders of the Big boys...but Polk, JBL, GoldenEar, (I won't list them all and some of them on AVS will come at you) etc all post stats that aren't real world accurate...
Honest question. What measurements does JBL post that are not accurate? My understanding is that their speaker measurements are among the most complete and accurate.
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post #9272 of 9356 Old 10-11-2019, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by duc135 View Post
Honest question. What measurements does JBL post that are not accurate? My understanding is that their speaker measurements are among the most complete and accurate.
probably a bad example, because I think most of their specs are pretty close...but someone posted sensitivity specs of one of their speakers and noted about a 6 dB exaggeration....
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post #9273 of 9356 Old 10-11-2019, 02:32 PM
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I see Dennis that you are now involved on AVS again, glad to hear you are doing well! I recall reading that you are done making speakers and your website even states that no more orders will be processed. Are you still in the position of no longer making speakers? Just wanting to see where you are at with all of this. Thanks!

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post #9274 of 9356 Old 10-11-2019, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post
3?! Well, Bose, Klipsch and Def Tech are the worst offenders of the Big boys...but Polk, JBL, GoldenEar, (I won't list them all and some of them on AVS will come at you) etc all post stats that aren't real world accurate...Wait, Bose doesn't post stats, they just post ridiculous claims!

In fact, I think what Imagic posted was more the norm that unusual...sure, those speakers can hit 35 hz...if you hold your ear right up to the speaker, and then, I am told, you can also hear the ocean!
I really like what Shane Rich said about the 1st generation EMP Impression series books, with a 5 1/4 inch woofer...he say, sure, we could tune that thing to hit upper 40s/lower 50s, but when they did it didn't sound very good. So they made the cut off just under 60 hz and said use a subwoofer!
def tech and klipsch and polk were the 3 i thought of right away .. polk probably not as much as the other 2...

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post #9275 of 9356 Old 10-11-2019, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by PhilharmonicDennis View Post
The bass spec is taken from modeling done by Paul Kittinger. As I noted in one of my posts on the Albany thread, capturing the true woofer performance in the deep bass is very difficult, and all of the current methods have problems, be they ground plane, nearfield woofer measurements spliced to quasi-anechoic at around 250 Hz, or full range measurements in an anechoic chamber, like those performed by the NRC. Paul and I have had some exchanges with shadyJ concerning his ground plane measurements, and he noted that he may not be picking up the rear port's full output. In any event, shady's qualitative descriptions of the BMR's bass response sure don't seem consistent with a -3dB point of only 53 Hz. For example: "Their bass extension is the best I have seen from a bookshelf speaker, and the bass quality itself is superb much like the rest of the frequency range." "Extraordinarily deep bass extension" "these are bookshelf speakers with the performance goal of having low-frequency extension on par with tower speakers, and with bass extension digging down into the 30 Hz range, they actually exceed many tower speakers in terms of extension.... You cannot get a reasonable level of deep bass output in a small package, and these speakers do an excellent job of providing deep bass output in a reasonable size and shape. I don’t know how that could be done better."
I modeled the woofer in my software and my results are quite different than what Paul gave you. The nearfield measurements have given me no problems and are just like anechoic numbers. I've not used the groundplane method but from what I understand it's pretty accurate. If there's a question on picking up the rear output then he could've just rotated the speaker or measured from the front and rear. Obviously it did pick up most (if not all) of the port output since there's not a dip in the curve around the port tuning.

The NRC curve (no longer on your site?) is quite different and does show the shortcoming of the chamber's 80hz limit. I'm not sure what "correction" they do to simulate below 80hz but I've not noticed the same issue with all of the rear-ported designs that they've tested. This is a case where the groundplane was more accurate than the NRC, at least with your speaker.

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post #9276 of 9356 Old 10-11-2019, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by duc135 View Post
Honest question. What measurements does JBL post that are not accurate? My understanding is that their speaker measurements are among the most complete and accurate.
They tend to be closer than most -- on their specs

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post #9277 of 9356 Old 10-12-2019, 12:11 AM
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I modeled the woofer in my software and my results are quite different than what Paul gave you. The nearfield measurements have given me no problems and are just like anechoic numbers. I've not used the groundplane method but from what I understand it's pretty accurate. If there's a question on picking up the rear output then he could've just rotated the speaker or measured from the front and rear. Obviously it did pick up most (if not all) of the port output since there's not a dip in the curve around the port tuning.

The NRC curve (no longer on your site?) is quite different and does show the shortcoming of the chamber's 80hz limit. I'm not sure what "correction" they do to simulate below 80hz but I've not noticed the same issue with all of the rear-ported designs that they've tested. This is a case where the groundplane was more accurate than the NRC, at least with your speaker.
First, I have complete confidence in Paul's modeling. He has an impeccable track record, and he uses very sophisticated software that also can model various transmission line designs with high accuracy. I took very careful and multiple measurements of the new 8545's TS parameters, since Scan's published specs are never correct. If your results are "quite different," I suspect its because you're using the parameters for the old model of the 8545, you relied on factory or third-party specs, or there was some other problem with the modeling. Like you, I don't have any experience with ground plane measurements, so it's hard for me to evaluate James Larson's results. The published results were for a mic placement in front of the speaker. He also sent Paul and me results that averaged measurements in front of and behind the BMR, and these were much closer to Paul's modeling. The only thing I can say for certain is that an F3 of 53 Hz, as shown the published plot, is completely inconsistent with James' own description of the bass and reports from BMR clients, not to mention the 8545's reputation for superior bass extension. I've never received a complaint in this regard--only positive reactions to the BMR's bass performance.

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post #9278 of 9356 Old 10-12-2019, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by PhilharmonicDennis View Post
First, I have complete confidence in Paul's modeling. He has an impeccable track record, and he uses very sophisticated software that also can model various transmission line designs with high accuracy. I took very careful and multiple measurements of the new 8545's TS parameters, since Scan's published specs are never correct. If your results are "quite different," I suspect its because you're using the parameters for the old model of the 8545, you relied on factory or third-party specs, or there was some other problem with the modeling. Like you, I don't have any experience with ground plane measurements, so it's hard for me to evaluate James Larson's results. The published results were for a mic placement in front of the speaker. He also sent Paul and me results that averaged measurements in front of and behind the BMR, and these were much closer to Paul's modeling. The only thing I can say for certain is that an F3 of 53 Hz, as shown the published plot, is completely inconsistent with James' own description of the bass and reports from BMR clients, not to mention the 8545's reputation for superior bass extension. I've never received a complaint in this regard--only positive reactions to the BMR's bass performance.
Yes, I modeled the new version of the 8545. Here's a link to further testing as well. https://www.pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Ar...2012_8_Aug.pdf

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post #9279 of 9356 Old 10-12-2019, 01:22 PM
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I am one of the BMR owners that can confirm its great bass extension. I did not measure it but I never felt a sub was necessary even in my large open area. I felt the speakers bass performance was right in line with its midrange and treble which is to say very detailed, balanced and neutral
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post #9280 of 9356 Old 10-12-2019, 05:14 PM
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Yes, I modeled the new version of the 8545. Here's a link to further testing as well. https://www.pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Ar...2012_8_Aug.pdf
Thanks for the link Rick. I didn't realize how old the update was to the 8545. I guess it occurred in 2012. Paul just remodeled the BMR using Vance's TS measurements instead of mine, and although there some significant differences in the parameters, they were largely self-cancelling and the results virtually identical. However--during the course of this discussion I realized that the specs on my BMR page weren't updated when I switched to the smaller cabinet. The F3 for that clocks in closer to 37 Hz. I'll change that shortly. Even with the higher F3, there is still useful output at 34 Hz, and to demonstrate that I included a 34 Hz test tone on every demo CD I shipped.
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post #9281 of 9356 Old 10-13-2019, 05:09 AM
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Real world case report on the 34 hz test tone.


About a week after getting my BMR's, I was listening to Dennis' test CD at rather high volume. I have a decent sized house, and my system is in my upstairs master bedroom. My 11 year old daughter was also upstairs in her bedroom (down the hall on the other side of the house), and my wife was downstairs in the kitchen (located below the master bedroom).


The 34 test tone came on. Within seconds my daughter comes running in laughing and asking what is going on. Once the tone stopped, my wife very angrily yells upstairs for me to never do that again, because I was rattling the entire kitchen and all the dishes in it. She was very legit displeased with me.


So the BMR's definitely have a lot of usable bass. They're not the equal of a separate sub or true full-sized, full-range speakers, but it would be absurd to expect them to be. If you're looking for lots of "slam" in your bass, you'll probably either need to look at bigger speakers or a separate powered sub. But the bass they put out is real and impressively controlled. I'd describe it as extremely "musical" at a much deeper level than I'd expect out of a bookshelf.
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post #9282 of 9356 Old 10-13-2019, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post
I am one of the BMR owners that can confirm its great bass extension. I did not measure it but I never felt a sub was necessary even in my large open area. I felt the speakers bass performance was right in line with its midrange and treble which is to say very detailed, balanced and neutral
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Real world case report on the 34 hz test tone.

So the BMR's definitely have a lot of usable bass. They're not the equal of a separate sub or true full-sized, full-range speakers, but it would be absurd to expect them to be. If you're looking for lots of "slam" in your bass, you'll probably either need to look at bigger speakers or a separate powered sub. But the bass they put out is real and impressively controlled. I'd describe it as extremely "musical" at a much deeper level than I'd expect out of a bookshelf.
+1

I run the BMRs full range (2.0) in a dedicated music setup with no room corrections. I can attest to the specs and bass extension of Dennis' BMRs. I even posted the FR curve in post #8761 .

In my room, I am very satisfied running the BMRs without subs. No, my room is not ideal in getting the best speaker measurements. It is a living room in an open space floor plan that opens to the kitchen/dining room to the right. It has a cathedral ceiling that opens up to the game room and bedroom hallways in the 2nd floor. It shares the same ceiling with the 2nd floor rooms.

Edit: Fixed link.

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post #9283 of 9356 Old 10-13-2019, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Gyroscopics View Post
+1



I run the BMRs full range (2.0) in a dedicated music setup with no room corrections. I can attest to the specs and bass extension of Dennis' BMRs. I even posted the FR curve in post #8761 .



In my room, I am very satisfied running the BMRs without subs. No, my room is not ideal in getting the best speaker measurements. It is a living room in an open space floor plan that opens to the kitchen/dining room to the right. It has a cathedral ceiling that opens up to the game room and bedroom hallways in the 2nd floor. It shares the same ceiling with the 2nd floor rooms.



Edit: Fixed link.
Have you tried using the game room as a dedicated HT room or music listening room?

Just curious as we may be thinking about a larger home with a larger loft or bonus room and was thinking of utilizing it both for 2 channel music and dedicated home theater room. It just seems like room correction and treatments are more of a challenge on an open living room concept like I currently have as well...

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post #9284 of 9356 Old 10-13-2019, 11:14 AM
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Have you tried using the game room as a dedicated HT room or music listening room?

Just curious as we may be thinking about a larger home with a larger loft or bonus room and was thinking of utilizing it both for 2 channel music and dedicated home theater room. It just seems like room correction and treatments are more of a challenge on an open living room concept like I currently have as well...

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I also use the game room for music listening. In fact that's where I setup my spare speakers and amps. But the living room gets inhabited more often and it's the best place to get the most usage out of my fav speakers.
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post #9285 of 9356 Old 10-13-2019, 11:15 AM
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+1

I run the BMRs full range (2.0) in a dedicated music setup with no room corrections. I can attest to the specs and bass extension of Dennis' BMRs. I even posted the FR curve in post #8761.
Very nice, although in-room is not comparable to anechoic measurements posted by other speaker makers.

However, in-room is what you hear, so there's no doubt it was there.

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post #9286 of 9356 Old 10-15-2019, 06:14 AM
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yes, In room is all I care about. I have never measured my BMRs, but had a studio eng at my house once to listen and he told me he felt like they hit 40hz pretty well...

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post #9287 of 9356 Old 10-17-2019, 12:32 PM
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Sounds like I'm in! Do we know more yet? Who will carry the kits? When they might be available? I didn't catch that earlier in this thread...

The parts-only BMR kit just became available from Meniscus: https://meniscusaudio.com/product/ph...r-speaker-kit/ I'm finalizing details for a finished cabinet option and for routed front baffles, which are the hardest part of DIY cabinet construction. I'll have to see a pair of completed cabinets before I can post that option, so they're a month or two away. I'll get pricing info for the front baffles posted shortly.
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post #9288 of 9356 Old 10-17-2019, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by PhilharmonicDennis View Post
The parts-only BMR kit just became available from Meniscus: https://meniscusaudio.com/product/ph...r-speaker-kit/ I'm finalizing details for a finished cabinet option and for routed front baffles, which are the hardest part of DIY cabinet construction. I'll have to see a pair of completed cabinets before I can post that option, so they're a month or two away. I'll get pricing info for the front baffles posted shortly.
Thanks Dennis!

A front baffle would be nice! 😀

I’m remodeling, so can wait a bit, but if I get impatient I may just roll my own! They will be behind an AT screen anyway...

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post #9289 of 9356 Old 10-17-2019, 01:08 PM
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The parts-only BMR kit just became available from Meniscus: https://meniscusaudio.com/product/ph...r-speaker-kit/ I'm finalizing details for a finished cabinet option and for routed front baffles, which are the hardest part of DIY cabinet construction. I'll have to see a pair of completed cabinets before I can post that option, so they're a month or two away. I'll get pricing info for the front baffles posted shortly.

So it looks like ~$940 gets you all the parts for two speakers (minus cabs), plus for an extra $40 they will assemble the crossovers for you.

Not bad. I had it in my mind it'd be more expensive than that.

You have any recommendations on the tweeter capacitor options?
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post #9290 of 9356 Old 10-17-2019, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilharmonicDennis View Post
The parts-only BMR kit just became available from Meniscus: https://meniscusaudio.com/product/ph...r-speaker-kit/ I'm finalizing details for a finished cabinet option and for routed front baffles, which are the hardest part of DIY cabinet construction. I'll have to see a pair of completed cabinets before I can post that option, so they're a month or two away. I'll get pricing info for the front baffles posted shortly.

So it looks like ~$940 gets you all the parts for two speakers (minus cabs), plus for an extra $40 they will assemble the crossovers for you.

Not bad. I had it in my mind it'd be more expensive than that.

You have any recommendations on the tweeter capacitor options?
If finished cabs come in around $400 you can put a pair together for about what Dennis was charging at the end. Less if you put the crossover together yourself.

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post #9291 of 9356 Old 10-17-2019, 01:22 PM
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So it looks like ~$940 gets you all the parts for two speakers (minus cabs), plus for an extra $40 they will assemble the crossovers for you.

Not bad. I had it in my mind it'd be more expensive than that.

You have any recommendations on the tweeter capacitor options?
There shouldn't be any need to upgrade capacitors except maybe for the tweeter circuit. It uses very low-value caps, so upgrading isn't all that expensive. Would you hear a difference? I don't think so, but you wouldn't lose any sleep over whether you might have heard one.
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post #9292 of 9356 Old 10-18-2019, 01:47 PM
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@PhilharmonicDennis
Such exciting news! I can almost see myself doing this... Dunno where I'll put them, but...


You mentioned above two different cabinet sizes and the slight change to the responses it might cause... I understand completely that we are talking very minimal change at the end of the day... Amd I've been completely stoked with the Bennic Cabs and the performance of these guys.


What are the two different sizes, and can we choose to build more towards the older/larger cabinet size? (Assuming it did not require any additional XO modification, that is.)


Now for a trickier question! In your experience doing speaker builds, might the BMR still perform as well if it were to have a slot port on the front allowing for slight more freedom in placement?


Thank you!
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post #9293 of 9356 Old 10-18-2019, 02:47 PM
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@PhilharmonicDennis
Such exciting news! I can almost see myself doing this... Dunno where I'll put them, but...


You mentioned above two different cabinet sizes and the slight change to the responses it might cause... I understand completely that we are talking very minimal change at the end of the day... Amd I've been completely stoked with the Bennic Cabs and the performance of these guys.


What are the two different sizes, and can we choose to build more towards the older/larger cabinet size? (Assuming it did not require any additional XO modification, that is.)


Now for a trickier question! In your experience doing speaker builds, might the BMR still perform as well if it were to have a slot port on the front allowing for slight more freedom in placement?


Thank you!
I would stick with the smaller .75 cu ft cabinet. It has better power handling, and the centered drivers increase sensitivity a little and actually measure better that way. I don't have a crossover for the larger cabinet with centered drivers. I would not use a slotted front port. The bass response is significantly better with the flared Precision port on the rear, and there's much less port noise than with a slotted.
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post #9294 of 9356 Old 10-22-2019, 09:43 AM
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Dennis - have you heard the Buchardt S-400? Since you enjoy modifying crossovers that one might me worth taking a look at. It would also be good for comparing to the BMR since they are very different designs.

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post #9295 of 9356 Old 10-22-2019, 10:55 AM
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Rick, was there something you'd like to see improved with the S-400?
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post #9296 of 9356 Old 10-22-2019, 12:40 PM
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Dennis - have you heard the Buchardt S-400? Since you enjoy modifying crossovers that one might me worth taking a look at. It would also be good for comparing to the BMR since they are very different designs.
Funny you should ask. I may be able to borrow a pair for my edification. I won't be taring into the crossover, however. I'll be treating them with kid gloves. I'll also be hearing lots and lots of speakers at the Capital Audio Fest next week. Will you be attending?
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post #9297 of 9356 Old 10-23-2019, 08:25 AM
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Rick, was there something you'd like to see improved with the S-400?
I haven't listened to the S-400 but the detailed measurements they provide (kudos to Buchardt) do raise some questions. I also noticed some issues with the quoted bass extension and sensitivity specifications. I did model the SB Acoustics woofer in the approximate cabinet volume.

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post #9298 of 9356 Old 10-23-2019, 08:37 AM
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Funny you should ask. I may be able to borrow a pair for my edification. I won't be tearing into the crossover, however. I'll be treating them with kid gloves. I'll also be hearing lots and lots of speakers at the Capital Audio Fest next week. Will you be attending?
Sorry, I won't be there this year. Hope you and Jim have a good show.

If you get a chance take some measurements of the S-400 and share your thoughts on the sound.
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post #9299 of 9356 Old 10-23-2019, 12:48 PM
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I haven't listened to the S-400 but the detailed measurements they provide (kudos to Buchardt) do raise some questions. I also noticed some issues with the quoted bass extension and sensitivity specifications. I did model the SB Acoustics woofer in the approximate cabinet volume.
Keep in mind those are likely in-room specs.
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post #9300 of 9356 Old 10-24-2019, 07:45 AM
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Keep in mind those are likely in-room specs.
Yes, I know they quote in-room for the bass extension and that makes it more difficult for buyers to make a comparison. The BMR has quite a bit more cabinet volume than the S-400 and that plays a factor here.

For the sensitivity Dennis could easily shoot a response curve of each speaker from the same distance / position. That would show the accuracy of the S-400's spec.

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