Philharmonic Audio - Dennis Murphy - Page 333 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #9961 of 10162 Old 05-19-2020, 05:23 PM
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12 minutes ago · #9960
I stained mine but did not use the recommended gel stain. They look good, however, any little dings or dents, oily fingerprints, or areas that glue got on (near edges primarily) did not take stain well. I have no experience with the gel stain so I don't know if that would cover any of those things better. I was able to get these small spots covered by letting stain dry on top of the imperfections rather than wiping off the excess.
Well, from the photo it looks excellent.

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post #9962 of 10162 Old 05-19-2020, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post
Dennis, so just so I am clear...to do the Monoprice mini tower upgrade you need:
1. A design for the modified crossover, from you (I hope you get some thing for that)
2. A parts list for the new crossover
3. The monoprice speakers
Not sure these are going to be better than my EMPtek impression speakers, which have served me well as HT speakers. Would a similar upgrade help with the bookshelf version of these speakers?
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Originally Posted by PhilharmonicDennis View Post
I have a write-up that shows the circuits and parts list with links. That's free. The speakers aren't, unless Monprice has switched to my business model. I'm sure the EMPtek's have much higher quality drivers and build quality, and a decent crossover, so I'm not suggesting that you replace those with the Mono's. It's more of a fun project for applications where you don't already have respectable speakers running.
It was fun indeed. I finished mine last night. Thanks to @PhilharmonicDennis for sharing his design and to @homecinemaquest for answering some questions earlier on this thread. I've attached some pictures. Hope these help others who want to pursue similar endeavor.

I waited one week before upgrading the crossover to familiarize with the OEM sound. I upgraded one side first to compare the OEM sound to Dennis' version. The new crossovers considerably improved the sound at a slight expense to sensitivity. The peaks at high frequencies were tamed, the mids came out and the mid-bass became tighter. Can't comment on the bass because the speakers inherently don't offer much below 60 Hz. The sound stage is exceptionally good, not expected at this price point. I played different genres and found the speaker's full range performance acceptable except for 1) hip-hop & EDM as these demand bass and 2) heavy metal not due to bass deficiency but because the tweeters cannot handle the complex layering in the same manner the Philharmonic Audio BMRs do.

The reduction in sensitivity is negligible and is nothing to worry about. My test methodology made it more apparent than it should be.

By the way, my room is notorious for bass peaks evidenced by prior REW measurements of reference speakers such as Philharmonic BMR and JBL 306P MK2, which showed emphasized bass in the same room. I attached the REW measurements for information purposes only, not to judge the speakers by how they measure in my room.

Equipment used for REW measurement: MiniDSP-UMIK-1 (USB) => MacbookPro (USB) => Topping D70 (XLR-Out) => Parasound HINT (XLR-In).


EDIT: The last picture is a BEFORE-picture of the stock wiring. (Dennis asked me to clarify this as that picture misled him to think it was the final wiring with the stock components still attached.)

Edit: Attached updated FR graph.
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post #9963 of 10162 Old 05-19-2020, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Gyroscopics View Post
It was fun indeed. I finished mine last night. Thanks to @PhilharmonicDennis for sharing his design and to @homecinemaquest for answering some questions earlier on this thread. I've attached some pictures. Hope these help others who want to pursue similar endeavor.

I waited one week before upgrading the crossover to familiarize with the OEM sound. I upgraded one side first to compare the OEM sound to Dennis' version. The new crossovers considerably improved the sound at a slight expense to sensitivity. The peaks at high frequencies were tamed, the mids came out and the mid-bass became tighter. Can't comment on the bass because the speakers inherently don't offer much below 60 Hz. The sound stage is exceptionally good, not expected at this price point. I played different genres and found the speaker's full range performance acceptable except for 1) hip-hop & EDM as these demand bass and 2) heavy metal not due to bass deficiency but because the tweeters cannot handle the complex layering in the same manner the Philharmonic Audio BMRs does.

The reduction in sensitivity is negligible and is nothing to worry about. My test methodology made it more apparent than it should be.

By the way, my room is notorious for bass peaks evidenced by prior REW measurements of reference speakers such as Philharmonic BMR and JBL 306P MK2, which showed emphasized bass in the same room. I attached the REW measurements for information purposes only, not to judge the speakers by how they measure in my room.

Equipment used for REW measurement: MiniDSP-UMIK-1 (USB) => MacbookPro (USB) => Topping D70 (XLR-Out) => Parasound HINT (XLR-In).
Thanks much for the feedback and pics. It's a little hard to make out, but it looks like you didn't remove the existing tweeter components from the signal path. If you didn't, that would ramp down the highs, and your measurements do show an abrupt fall in output where the tweeter takes over. The tweeter level should be very close to the woofer output.
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post #9964 of 10162 Old 05-19-2020, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by PhilharmonicDennis View Post
Thanks much for the feedback and pics. It's a little hard to make out, but it looks like you didn't remove the existing tweeter components from the signal path. If you didn't, that would ramp down the highs, and your measurements do show an abrupt fall in output where the tweeter takes over. The tweeter level should be very close to the woofer output.
Thanks for asking. I removed the existing crossover for the tweeters but left the components attached to the tweeter. I cut off terminal from that resistor as shown in the picture. The REW measurement for my BMRs shows similar ramp down on the highs in the same room.
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post #9965 of 10162 Old 05-20-2020, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Gyroscopics View Post
Thanks for asking. I removed the existing crossover for the tweeters but left the components attached to the tweeter. I cut off terminal from that resistor as shown in the picture. The REW measurement for my BMRs shows similar ramp down on the highs in the same room.
Interesting...what is your overall impression of the speaker? What price range might you compare this with?

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post #9966 of 10162 Old 05-20-2020, 07:43 AM
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Interesting...what is your overall impression of the speaker? What price range might you compare this with?
I would rank it at the same level as Elac UB5 in clarity but without the harshness of the latter. The mids are similar to original Elac Debut B5 but with added detail in the highs. In no way it sounds like the Elac Debut 2.0 B6.2 which in my opinion is utter garbage for music. The sound stage is much better than any of the three AJs.
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post #9967 of 10162 Old 05-20-2020, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Gyroscopics View Post
I would rank it at the same level as Elac UB5 in clarity but without the harshness of the latter. The mids are similar to original Elac Debut B5 but with added detail in the highs. In no way it sounds like the Elac Debut 2.0 B6.2 which in my opinion is utter garbage for music. The sound stage is much better than any of the three AJs.
Have you listened the the Debut Reference DBR62 by chance? Just wondering how that one would compare in your mind compared to rest or the Elacs mentioned and the speakers you put together?

Thanks.



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post #9968 of 10162 Old 05-20-2020, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Gyroscopics View Post
I would rank it at the same level as Elac UB5 in clarity but without the harshness of the latter. The mids are similar to original Elac Debut B5 but with added detail in the highs. In no way it sounds like the Elac Debut 2.0 B6.2 which in my opinion is utter garbage for music. The sound stage is much better than any of the three AJs.
Thanks, that put it in perspective pretty well. Never heard the ELac UB5 debut, but have seen it in several speaker comparisons. Compares favorable/better to a 300/pr speaker with the modification...

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post #9969 of 10162 Old 05-20-2020, 10:33 AM
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Have you listened the the Debut Reference DBR62 by chance? Just wondering how that one would compare in your mind compared to rest or the Elacs mentioned and the speakers you put together?
I haven't heard the DBR62.

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If you didn't, that would ramp down the highs, and your measurements do show an abrupt fall in output where the tweeter takes over. The tweeter level should be very close to the woofer output.
Dennis and I exchanged emails wondering about the ramped down highs. I suspected it was due to the mic. I measured again, this time without the foam attached to the mic. The highs don't appear attenuated as much anymore but still tapers down at the end. I don't claim to hear beyond 15Khz, but so does my umik I guess
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post #9970 of 10162 Old 05-20-2020, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Gyroscopics View Post
I haven't heard the DBR62.



Dennis and I exchanged emails wondering about the ramped down highs. I suspected it was due to the mic. I measured again, this time without the foam attached to the mic. The highs don't appear attenuated as much anymore but still tapers down at the end. I don't claim to hear beyond 15Khz, but so does my umik I guess
Are you testing with Audyssey on or off? If on, turn off and test again.

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post #9971 of 10162 Old 05-20-2020, 12:27 PM
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Are you testing with Audyssey on or off? If on, turn off and test again.
I could be wrong but there is no Audyssey on this signal path:
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I could be wrong but there is no Audyssey on this signal path:
Understood.

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post #9973 of 10162 Old 05-20-2020, 03:47 PM
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Have you listened the the Debut Reference DBR62 by chance? Just wondering how that one would compare in your mind compared to rest or the Elacs mentioned and the speakers you put together?

Thanks.



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This from a friend at that other site.

https://forums.audioholics.com/forum...dbr-62.118064/
Sounds promising.
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post #9974 of 10162 Old 05-20-2020, 06:43 PM
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This from a friend at that other site.

https://forums.audioholics.com/forum...dbr-62.118064/
Sounds promising.
Very cool and thanks for sharing.

That's a great find.

Cheers!

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post #9975 of 10162 Old 05-20-2020, 11:47 PM
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This from a friend at that other site.

https://forums.audioholics.com/forum...dbr-62.118064/
Sounds promising.

Yes and no.

By all accounts the Debut Reference are "polite" speakers that do things well. But I've not heard anyone say they have a large soundstage, rock hard, decent off-axis or any of the other intangibles/fun stuff that a lot of us like/want.

But hey, ASR liked their measurements so for those of you with meters on your head instead of ears, you may find them very pleasing.
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post #9976 of 10162 Old 05-21-2020, 02:53 PM
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Thanks, that put it in perspective pretty well. Never heard the ELac UB5 debut, but have seen it in several speaker comparisons. Compares favorable/better to a 300/pr speaker with the modification...
Just an update. After more listening tests and proper positioning, I find Dennis' voiced T65RT better than JBL 306P Mk2, B&W 685s2, Polk LSi7, Polk LSiM703 for music. The biggest advantage of Dennis' voiced T65RT over those speakers is the AMT tweeter which has the best resolution and sound stage among them and extends up (and beyond) my hearing limits without getting harsh. I tested it with the harshest stereo amp I own (HK-3480) and still behaved well. Also tested it with a class D amp (SMSL SA-98E) and never lost composure. It's disadvantage over those speakers is positioning. The AMT tweeter has be within ear level if you are listening from within 6 feet away. I currently use it for background music while I work from home during this lockdown. Paired with a sub (crossed at 80Hz), it plays music the whole day at 50-60db unless I'm on conference calls. It's basically a poor^2 man's BMR as others previously described it (as long as you don't play it loud (>75db) to avoid cabinet resonance and cone breakup).
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post #9977 of 10162 Old 05-21-2020, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Gyroscopics View Post
Just an update. After more listening tests and proper positioning, I find Dennis' voiced T65RT better than JBL 306P Mk2, B&W 685s2, Polk LSi7, Polk LSiM703 for music. The biggest advantage of Dennis' voiced T65RT over those speakers is the AMT tweeter which has the best resolution and sound stage among them and extends up (and beyond) my hearing limits without getting harsh. I tested it with the harshest stereo amp I own (HK-3480) and still behaved well. Also tested it with a class D amp (SMSL SA-98E) and never lost composure. It's disadvantage over those speakers is positioning. The AMT tweeter has be within ear level if you are listening from within 6 feet away. I currently use it for background music while I work from home during this lockdown. Paired with a sub (crossed at 80Hz), it plays music the whole day at 50-60db unless I'm on conference calls. It's basically a poor^2 man's BMR as others previously described it (as long as you don't play it loud (>75db) to avoid cabinet resonance and cone breakup).
Wow, that is high praise!

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post #9978 of 10162 Old 05-24-2020, 10:24 AM
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Any news on the BMR HT speaker that Dennis had built a prototype of with higher sensitivity? Just curious if that will ever make it out into the wild to consider as an upgrade.
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post #9979 of 10162 Old 05-24-2020, 10:26 AM
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Good review update, @Gyroscopics . I see common ground with my experience with the modded T65RT.

Now that I'm working from home, I find listening to background music is a larger portion of my overall music listening time than it used to be. The modded T65RT is notable for its lack of harshness and lack of causing listening fatigue. In addition to background music I use these speakers for TV. Nowadays TV news shows are largely filled with broadcasting people at home using the mike on their phone or laptop. A more revealing speaker could make this poor audio sound even worse I'm afraid.

Although I am firmly in the camp that always enjoys the boost a good sounding sub adds, in this case with budget such an overwhelming factor, I would say a sub is truly optional. That said, my sub crossed at 80 Hz relieves the towers from a burden they simply struggle to handle. The addition of a sub allows nicer higher volume listening. Note I'm saying "higher," not "high."

So I have my main listening room where the BMR's and multiple subs earn their worth, and my living room/work area where a second pair of BMR's for background music would not have made economic sense. Since I am addicted to loud music, having the separate listening room keeps me away and keeps the significant other happy. Having BMR's in the living room also, would just be a temptation for me to turn it up.
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post #9980 of 10162 Old 05-24-2020, 06:24 PM
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Good review update, @Gyroscopics . I see common ground with my experience with the modded T65RT.

Now that I'm working from home, I find listening to background music is a larger portion of my overall music listening time than it used to be. The modded T65RT is notable for its lack of harshness and lack of causing listening fatigue. In addition to background music I use these speakers for TV. Nowadays TV news shows are largely filled with broadcasting people at home using the mike on their phone or laptop. A more revealing speaker could make this poor audio sound even worse I'm afraid.

Although I am firmly in the camp that always enjoys the boost a good sounding sub adds, in this case with budget such an overwhelming factor, I would say a sub is truly optional. That said, my sub crossed at 80 Hz relieves the towers from a burden they simply struggle to handle. The addition of a sub allows nicer higher volume listening. Note I'm saying "higher," not "high."

So I have my main listening room where the BMR's and multiple subs earn their worth, and my living room/work area where a second pair of BMR's for background music would not have made economic sense. Since I am addicted to loud music, having the separate listening room keeps me away and keeps the significant other happy. Having BMR's in the living room also, would just be a temptation for me to turn it up.
Okay, im sold ad will have to try the mod in the next couple months!
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post #9981 of 10162 Old 05-26-2020, 04:21 PM
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Dennis Murphy's AAM (Affordable Accuracy Monitor) gets reviewed and recommended on another site.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...-review.13624/
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post #9982 of 10162 Old 05-26-2020, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by PhilharmonicDennis View Post
Unfortunately, I don't think PE would be willing to offer a + kit because the Morel tweeter with the 110 mm baffle is only available from Madisound.
Hey Dennis
Any chance you could provide the info on the crossover for the New Affordable Accuracy Monitors? The first version from the BR-1 kit. I would really appreciate it.

Thanks
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post #9983 of 10162 Old 05-27-2020, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Gyroscopics View Post
Dennis Murphy's AAM (Affordable Accuracy Monitor) gets reviewed and recommended on another site.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...-review.13624/

That's pretty neat, but I'm wondering why a review on one of his older designs that's long out of production? Is Dennis going to re-release or provide detailed specs on the modified crossover design?

But IIRC, the full crossover mod to the BS-22 wasn't exactly easy for the beginner DIY crowd. I was going to do the tweeter + cap to mine, but the full mod required more effort than I wanted to put into them.
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post #9984 of 10162 Old 05-27-2020, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by _tk View Post
That's pretty neat, but I'm wondering why a review on one of his older designs that's long out of production? Is Dennis going to re-release or provide detailed specs on the modified crossover design?

But IIRC, the full crossover mod to the BS-22 wasn't exactly easy for the beginner DIY crowd. I was going to do the tweeter + cap to mine, but the full mod required more effort than I wanted to put into them.
I sent the little AA monitor to Amir for two reasons. First, he had just published a review of the stock Pioneer BS22, and I thought it would be interesting to see how they compared using the Klippel measuring machine, particularly since documentation for my mod is still in the public domain. Second, and more important, it would be a valuable learning experience for me. I've sold hundreds of those little monitors and have never had a return or a complaint, and I'm intimately familiar with how they sound and how they measure on my Praxis software. I was very interested to see whether my own measurements tracked the Klippel results, and whether the much more detailed Klippel measurements revealed any serious design flaws. And I wanted to get a better handle on Amir's listening tastes so I could better interpret his subjective opinions, which have proven controversial. In the end, I did learn a lot, and I also opened up a can of many worms. I'm getting requests from all over the world for a speaker that no longer exists.
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post #9985 of 10162 Old 05-27-2020, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by PhilharmonicDennis View Post
I sent the little AA monitor to Amir for two reasons. First, he had just published a review of the stock Pioneer BS22, and I thought it would be interesting to see how they compared using the Klippel measuring machine, particularly since documentation for my mod is still in the public domain. Second, and more important, it would be a valuable learning experience for me. I've sold hundreds of those little monitors and have never had a return or a complaint, and I'm intimately familiar with how they sound and how they measure on my Praxis software. I was very interested to see whether my own measurements tracked the Klippel results, and whether the much more detailed Klippel measurements revealed any serious design flaws. And I wanted to get a better handle on Amir's listening tastes so I could better interpret his subjective opinions, which have proven controversial. In the end, I did learn a lot, and I also opened up a can of many worms. I'm getting requests from all over the world for a speaker that no longer exists.
Not to put you on the spot if you wish to keep them private, but what additional insight did you gain from his review of the AA monitor? (in terms of the Klippel/Praxis differences, any designs flaws that weren't obvious before, Amir's subjective tastes vs yours, etc.)
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post #9986 of 10162 Old 05-27-2020, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by PhilharmonicDennis View Post
I sent the little AA monitor to Amir for two reasons. First, he had just published a review of the stock Pioneer BS22, and I thought it would be interesting to see how they compared using the Klippel measuring machine, particularly since documentation for my mod is still in the public domain. Second, and more important, it would be a valuable learning experience for me. I've sold hundreds of those little monitors and have never had a return or a complaint, and I'm intimately familiar with how they sound and how they measure on my Praxis software. I was very interested to see whether my own measurements tracked the Klippel results, and whether the much more detailed Klippel measurements revealed any serious design flaws. And I wanted to get a better handle on Amir's listening tastes so I could better interpret his subjective opinions, which have proven controversial. In the end, I did learn a lot, and I also opened up a can of many worms. I'm getting requests from all over the world for a speaker that no longer exists.
I have never heard of this Klippel measuring machine...or of this Amir guy! A brief google search, and it appears to be a device that measures output? is that correct? microphone free?
What did the comparison of Klippel vs your method tell you?

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post #9987 of 10162 Old 05-27-2020, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by PhilharmonicDennis View Post
In the end, I did learn a lot, and I also opened up a can of many worms. I'm getting requests from all over the world for a speaker that no longer exists.

Does not surprise me, that's why I was curious as to why it was getting tested.

The BS22 is still a very popular speaker. It's not a lot of money, it sounds decent, it looks much more expensive than what it actually is with the curved cabinets and nice vinyl, etc. If you could sell a "plug and play" kit for them (xover + tweeter) I think you'd be surprised how many of them would sell.

I have speakers worth over 10x what the BS22's are yet I still have them around because they are just a nice speaker, even in stock form. Plus, it's the speaker that absolutely smashed in the door of what we now know as "budget audiophile" speakers.
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post #9988 of 10162 Old 05-27-2020, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post
I have never heard of this Klippel measuring machine...or of this Amir guy! A brief google search, and it appears to be a device that measures output? is that correct? microphone free?
What did the comparison of Klippel vs your method tell you?
I've never seen the machine in action and don't understand all of the details, but the measurements have much more resolution in the bass and midrange than I can obtain. Also, it produces complete Spinorama results, which are to cumbersome for me to perform. Here's the explanation Amir gives:

Measurements that you are about to see were performed using the Klippel Near-field Scanner (NFS). This is a robotic measurement system that analyzes the speaker all around and is able (using advanced mathematics and dual scan) to subtract room reflections (so where I measure it doesn't matter). It also measures the speaker at close distance ("near-field") which sharply reduces the impact of room noise. Both of these factors enable testing in ordinary rooms yet results that can be more accurate than an anechoic chamber. In a nutshell, the measurements show the actual sound coming out of the speaker independent of the room.
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post #9989 of 10162 Old 05-27-2020, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Ryanosaur View Post
This from Zaph Audio site:
http://www.zaphaudio.com/setup.html


Scroll down a little and he talks about his quasi-infinite baffle test jig.


Post 13 on this thread from PE TechTalk discusses some other Test Baffle parameters. A few other posts have some links to their designs or just measurements.

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...068#post501068


And here's a video posted by a guy, Erin's Audio Corner, who bought his own Klippel Analysis setup. Fast forward toward the end unless you really like watching a grown man open his "X-mas" package!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHNvt6Y2NIM
I posted this a bit ago... this guy Erin has been documenting his return to Speaker testing here at AH, as well as his own channel.
https://forums.audioholics.com/forum...ebsite.116884/
Most recently he has been working out the kinks on his testing procedures. Interesting stuff if you are in to it! (I am.)


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post #9990 of 10162 Old 05-27-2020, 02:01 PM
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new BMR

It's nice to see ASR measure what we Dennis Murphy builders and Philharmonic/Salk buyers have learned from experience .

That said, what I want to hear about is the new BMR with the Purifi 6.5" .
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