List of Reference Level, High Sensitivity & SPL Speakers - Page 35 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1021 of 1042 Old 07-27-2018, 10:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Generally in the spreadsheet you'll see at the top of the list bigger woofers and more of them. You'll also see less low extension. A 15", couple 12" or couple 10" either yields deeper extension or higher sensitivity.

Once you accept those tradeoffs of Hoffman's Iron Law (like other truisms like "cheap, strong, light... pick two" ), you get a sense for what's reasonable (compromises that follow the law) and what's b.s. (magically contravene the Law "you can have it all!").

I agree with Popalock about the sensitivity. It's going to be higher than most speakers and it'll get the job done using a big cabinet and two 10" woofers for mid and bass. It's not as high as they claim, due to the low extension into sub territory.

I also agree about the use of sub with RF-7. While one might be tempted to run full range, and manufacturer marketing likes to perversely promote all speakers big or small as suitable for full range, it's telling that Mark did not run full range.

Aside from placement of LFE restrictions (modal effects in room) when not using a sub, think just about the capabilities in terms of subs for a minute. The kind of sub that could get the job done for films, commensurate with the expense and quality and capability of the Klipsch as main speakers above 80 Hz, would be multiple large box, big woofer, high wattage (500 - 3000w) subwoofers.

Running the RF-7 full range is like having two smaller box subs powered by whatever amp you're using. 200w per channel ? That's wimpy theater bass. It's nothing against the speaker, just physics. You deserve better in the low bass department. Which is why the general recommendation is to always use a sub(s).

Also think about the center speaker. If in 5.1+ the center will have the same demands (or greater) as the front left and right.

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post #1022 of 1042 Old 07-27-2018, 02:53 PM
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Most Klipsch speakers intended for the home are rated for "the average room," and depend on having room gain, and whatever boundary gain you would get if placed according to the Klipsch instructions for that particular speaker. To get AES sensitivity, in an anechoic chamber, subtract about 4 dB (that came from a Klipsch engineer). I believe that AES measurement is at 2.83v, 1 Meter, with pink noise containing 6 dB peaks, in 1/2 space, over the spec'd bandwidth of the speaker. Some manufacturers don't measure over the whole bandwidth. Klipsch does (that came from another Klipsch engineer). JBL used to caution (after a certain date) that their measurements were full range, while some others just used the midrange, where sensitivity was high. FWIW, back in the mid '70s, JBL and Klipsch agreed that 54 dB EIA just about equaled 103/104 dB, 1w, 1M into 8 Ohms nominal (i.e., 2.83v, 1 M). Current cut sheets from Klipsch specify -- in incredibly small print, in a footnote -- "In an average room." Other speaker makers sometimes give two sensitivity specs; Paradigm specs "anechoic" and "room."



None of this matters much, at least in regard to the sound, because the RF7-III is incredibly sensitive, whether you think of it as 100 dB @ 2.83V / 1M, or 96 db @2.83V / 1M. At a sensitivity of 96 dB, and about 50 watts in a 3,000 cu. ft. room, you will get about reference level for a main speaker (105 dB). You need a good subwoofer, or two of them, crossing over at about 80 Hz. Once you get the sub(s) make sure your main speakers are set for "small" in the AVR or AVP, even though they are physically "large." Almost everyone recommends that. Setting for "small" will reduce cone excursion in the RF7-IIIs (and any other front speakers), and make them sound even clearer, revealing those "inner voices."



You are on the right track, opting for a horn loaded mid/treble, since you want to hear the "inner voices of the orchestra" you are used to "live."


Have you purchased your 15' screen yet? If you get an acoustically transparent screen, especially a Seymour, you can have a RF 7-III for your CENTER speaker, as well.

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post #1023 of 1042 Old 07-27-2018, 08:24 PM
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More Questions

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Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
Most Klipsch speakers intended for the home are rated for "the average room," and depend on having room gain, and whatever boundary gain you would get if placed according to the Klipsch instructions for that particular speaker. To get AES sensitivity, in an anechoic chamber, subtract about 4 dB (that came from a Klipsch engineer). I believe that AES measurement is at 2.83v, 1 Meter, with pink noise containing 6 dB peaks, in 1/2 space, over the spec'd bandwidth of the speaker. Some manufacturers don't measure over the whole bandwidth. Klipsch does (that came from another Klipsch engineer). JBL used to caution (after a certain date) that their measurements were full range, while some others just used the midrange, where sensitivity was high. FWIW, back in the mid '70s, JBL and Klipsch agreed that 54 dB EIA just about equaled 103/104 dB, 1w, 1M into 8 Ohms nominal (i.e., 2.83v, 1 M). Current cut sheets from Klipsch specify -- in incredibly small print, in a footnote -- "In an average room." Other speaker makers sometimes give two sensitivity specs; Paradigm specs "anechoic" and "room."



None of this matters much, at least in regard to the sound, because the RF7-III is incredibly sensitive, whether you think of it as 100 dB @ 2.83V / 1M, or 96 db @2.83V / 1M. At a sensitivity of 96 dB, and about 50 watts in a 3,000 cu. ft. room, you will get about reference level for a main speaker (105 dB). You need a good subwoofer, or two of them, crossing over at about 80 Hz. Once you get the sub(s) make sure your main speakers are set for "small" in the AVR or AVP, even though they are physically "large." Almost everyone recommends that. Setting for "small" will reduce cone excursion in the RF7-IIIs (and any other front speakers), and make them sound even clearer, revealing those "inner voices."



You are on the right track, opting for a horn loaded mid/treble, since you want to hear the "inner voices of the orchestra" you are used to "live."


Have you purchased your 15' screen yet? If you get an acoustically transparent screen, especially a Seymour, you can have a RF 7-III for your CENTER speaker, as well.
Thanks for all your information!
Yes I have my screen up. It is an SI Slate 1.2 that will not allow light to pass through it from the back as there are three windows behind it.

I do have room for speakers on each side. I noticed there are a couple of ports in back and concerned there may not be enough room between the speakers and the walls for best results on the wall sides. There is approximately 22" from the wall to the screen and the RF-7 III is 13.875".

I currently have very old Sony and Orb subs. Both are small, I think 10". I hope to replace them. I know there are some very fine subs out there. What would you recommend as to brand and size? Would you try to go with Klipsch for the sub/subs and center?

I hope to move the center to the ceiling in front of the screen's housing. I put the center Orbs close to the floor so my screen can get full screen image with 16:9 and full width image with 2:35 but furniture blocks the sound off center on left and right.
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post #1024 of 1042 Old 07-27-2018, 08:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Pick any sub that meets the needs. Don't need to match make or model line.

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post #1025 of 1042 Old 07-27-2018, 08:47 PM
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Question Subs and Center

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Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post
Generally in the spreadsheet you'll see at the top of the list bigger woofers and more of them. You'll also see less low extension. A 15", couple 12" or couple 10" either yields deeper extension or higher sensitivity.

Once you accept those tradeoffs of Hoffman's Iron Law (like other truisms like "cheap, strong, light... pick two" ), you get a sense for what's reasonable (compromises that follow the law) and what's b.s. (magically contravene the Law "you can have it all!").

I agree with Popalock about the sensitivity. It's going to be higher than most speakers and it'll get the job done using a big cabinet and two 10" woofers for mid and bass. It's not as high as they claim, due to the low extension into sub territory.

I also agree about the use of sub with RF-7. While one might be tempted to run full range, and manufacturer marketing likes to perversely promote all speakers big or small as suitable for full range, it's telling that Mark did not run full range.

Aside from placement of LFE restrictions (modal effects in room) when not using a sub, think just about the capabilities in terms of subs for a minute. The kind of sub that could get the job done for films, commensurate with the expense and quality and capability of the Klipsch as main speakers above 80 Hz, would be multiple large box, big woofer, high wattage (500 - 3000w) subwoofers.

Running the RF-7 full range is like having two smaller box subs powered by whatever amp you're using. 200w per channel ? That's wimpy theater bass. It's nothing against the speaker, just physics. You deserve better in the low bass department. Which is why the general recommendation is to always use a sub(s).

Also think about the center speaker. If in 5.1+ the center will have the same demands (or greater) as the front left and right.

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The kind of sub that could get the job done for films, commensurate with the expense and quality and capability of the Klipsch as main speakers above 80 Hz, would be multiple large box, big woofer, high wattage (500 - 3000w) subwoofers.

Thanks!
Any specifics as to size, brand, model numbers, going with Klipsch for center as well subs?
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post #1026 of 1042 Old 07-27-2018, 09:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Subwoofers... This is a whole other topic and journey for you in and of itself.

JTR is a manufacturer candidate.

Learn what your goals are first, and why. For instance, if you want to play Klipsch at concert levels, let's say -5 to +5, you need to hit bass peaks of 113dB to 123dB at your listening position.

That's multiple quality subs.

Read here on AVS for people w similar rooms and goals.

Look at data-bass.com and audioholics for in depth reviews.

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post #1027 of 1042 Old 07-28-2018, 12:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James A. McGahee View Post
I do have room for speakers on each side. I noticed there are a couple of ports in back and concerned there may not be enough room between the speakers and the walls for best results on the wall sides. There is approximately 22" from the wall to the screen and the RF-7 III is 13.875".

Would you try to go with Klipsch for the sub/subs and center?

Look at the Klipsch manual for the RF-7 IIIs and the port placement. Toe the speakers in toward the center seat. The amount of toe-in is something to experiment with. Where, exactly, is the rear port on the RF-7 III? Centered on the back? How far off the floor? In the past, people have used toe-in in the corners to provide a path for the sound from the port. Experiment, experiment, experiment.


The better your sub situation, the less the port may matter.


I'd go with a 15" ported sub -- or two, if you can afford them. I'd certainly keep the subs identical, or electronic room correction might adjust levels and EQ for the lessor of the two subs.


I've heard good things about SVS subs, but you need to make a study of them.


Whether your center is above or below your screen, aim the tweeter right at your ears, which means inclining it a bit. What kind? Perhaps a Klipsch RC-64 III, to, hopefully, match the timbre. Be sure to set it at "Small" in your AVR or AVP -- you definitely want to keep the bass out of any normal center.




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post #1028 of 1042 Old 07-28-2018, 05:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post
I owned the RF-7II's for about 6 years. Just off loaded them.

While I enjoyed them and agree and trust Mark's reviews, I personally wouldn't go for the RF-7III's knowing what I know now. Actually, I had just started getting into the hobby right as I purchased the RF-7II's. If I could have done it all over, I would have simply built my own speakers. Regardless, here are a few pros & cons I can think of off the top of my head regarding the Klipsch:

Pro:
1. Can run full range with solid output in the low 30's.
2. Bulletproof. Seriously get louder that you would think they could full range.

Cons:
1. I really can't imagine a huge improvement over the RF-7II model. You can usually find them used for under $1,500 a pair.
2. Published sensitivity *most likely* is inflated. The RF-7II cut-sheet specs the sensitivity @ 101db, but they have been measured here on AVS to spec @96db. Not a huge deal, but misleading none the less.
3. They can sound a bit harsh if you are the type to push them to their limits.
4. If you have ample woofage you will most likely cross these @ 80Hz per THX standard (as most do). Thus no need for the low end extension.

I mean, it really comes down to your goals and listening habits. Since you are more of a classical guy it sounds like your listening habits would lend to the RF-7III's being perfectly ample to cover the entire frequency range of your music. For movies, it's my opinion that you would need more extension...at least down to 20Hz or so. You would be surprised at how much content you would be missing while watching movies if you only had the RF-7III's running full range. I can say that (again my opinion) I have heard subjectively better high sensitivity speakers that objectively measured better. That said, the further I have dug into this hobby over the years, the more I have found that EVERYONE is different and has different tastes in what they like.

I would bet 100% that if you picked up the RF-&III's you would be completely happy...if...you never visited another theater with an equally capable setup.

Of course, if you were willing to build, you could have a pair of 1899's that would obliterate anything remotely close to it's price range in every measurable way for ~$2K.

Good luck.
There is a huge difference between the reference II and III/premiere series due to the horn geometry. The new series sounds much more neutral on the highs.

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post #1029 of 1042 Old 07-28-2018, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by yepimonfire View Post
There is a huge difference between the reference II and III/premiere series due to the horn geometry. The new series sounds much more neutral on the highs.

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Ok.
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post #1030 of 1042 Old 07-30-2018, 08:02 PM
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Parts to (or replacement of) Kenwood Soverign MX5000 THX Ultra Stereo Amplifier

Does anyone know where you can purchase parts for a MX5000 stereo amp. or acquire a replacement. Mine failed and I need parts or an amp of equal quality to hook my Bose 501 Series V speakers into. I had a local TV repairman come out who sales primarily Klipsch not Bose. It was interesting how much he praised the Bose 901s and mentioned they are still in demand, selling well, and hold their resale value better than most. He also spoke well of Klipsch but that would be expected as he sales mostly Klipsch in his store. Anyway, after spending a couple hours checking all possibilities he said that it's the MX5000 amp that is not working properly but possibility the equalizer many also need checking out. I called Bose. They sent me a prepaid label to send it to them for repair. I explained the situation and they said that after they check it out if nothing is wrong they will refund my $54. Considering how old it is not a bad deal. Haven't sent it back yet as I am looking to repair or replace my stereo amp. Any recommendations. Oh, and by the way the TV tech. didn't charge me anything for his service call. I may buy my Klipsch from him. He knows how to play his cards and I appreciate how he was more concerned about my problems than pushing me to buy his product.
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post #1031 of 1042 Old 09-15-2018, 07:58 AM
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Over 100dB sensitivity. With 7 watts I’m getting 110dB in my (small) room! Yes, that’s 7 watts! Sensitive speakers also sound much more accurate, neutral, and “live” when paired with the right amp and pre-amp.
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* 1930s cinema RCA 1443 field coil midrange horns, Supravox EXC 12” field coil upper bass, Fostex T500a super tweeter * active transmission line sub *Klipsch in wall (4x) Music: * Kondo Japan 2 channel: M77, Souga, SMC V12 w/Kondo wiring * Denon AVR X8500H * Sony 995ES 4K laser * Stewart GrayHawk RS G4 * Oppo BDP 203 UHD * PS Audio DSD DAC, P5 AC regenerator * Apple TV * Stillpoints Cloud & Aperture panels * custom diffusers/bass traps
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post #1032 of 1042 Old 09-15-2018, 08:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Wow quite impressive. Like the diffusion panel too!

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post #1033 of 1042 Old 03-30-2019, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post
I owned the RF-7II's for about 6 years. Just off loaded them.

While I enjoyed them and agree and trust Mark's reviews, I personally wouldn't go for the RF-7III's knowing what I know now. Actually, I had just started getting into the hobby right as I purchased the RF-7II's. If I could have done it all over, I would have simply built my own speakers. Regardless, here are a few pros & cons I can think of off the top of my head regarding the Klipsch:

Pro:
1. Can run full range with solid output in the low 30's.
2. Bulletproof. Seriously get louder that you would think they could full range.

Cons:
1. I really can't imagine a huge improvement over the RF-7II model. You can usually find them used for under $1,500 a pair.
2. Published sensitivity *most likely* is inflated. The RF-7II cut-sheet specs the sensitivity @ 101db, but they have been measured here on AVS to spec @96db. Not a huge deal, but misleading none the less.
3. They can sound a bit harsh if you are the type to push them to their limits.
4. If you have ample woofage you will most likely cross these @ 80Hz per THX standard (as most do). Thus no need for the low end extension.

I mean, it really comes down to your goals and listening habits. Since you are more of a classical guy it sounds like your listening habits would lend to the RF-7III's being perfectly ample to cover the entire frequency range of your music. For movies, it's my opinion that you would need more extension...at least down to 20Hz or so. You would be surprised at how much content you would be missing while watching movies if you only had the RF-7III's running full range. I can say that (again my opinion) I have heard subjectively better high sensitivity speakers that objectively measured better. That said, the further I have dug into this hobby over the years, the more I have found that EVERYONE is different and has different tastes in what they like.

I would bet 100% that if you picked up the RF-&III's you would be completely happy...if...you never visited another theater with an equally capable setup.

Of course, if you were willing to build, you could have a pair of 1899's that would obliterate anything remotely close to it's price range in every measurable way for ~$2K.

Good luck.
Thanks for your reply!

Not getting many suggestions though. I'm not sure I am up to a DIY kit although the price difference is intriguing.

Is there anyone here who is sure of a better sounding/quality pair of speakers for the same or less price of the Klipsch RF-IIIs?

Over the years I have most enjoyed my pair of left and right Acoustic Research AR2AX (1970ish) and my three used L/C/R Altec Lancing Voice of the Theater speakers. They had clarity, great stereo separation, impact (exp. the Altecs), etc.

They were sealed speakers. Not sure I'll like ported speakers better. I have had a few but the two mentioned brands to me still sounded best.


Do those of you who have had both ported and sealed feel the same way.

Would still like more suggestions/recommendations for speakers in the same or less price range as the Klipsch RF-IIIs that produce better or at least same results for classical (instrumental & vocal) music as well as action movies.

Thanks-

Last edited by James A. McGahee; 03-30-2019 at 08:23 PM.
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post #1034 of 1042 Old 04-04-2019, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
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... I'm not sure I am up to a DIY kit although the price difference is intriguing. ...
Are you familiar with DIYSG? On some models they offer the option of pre-soldered crossover assemblies and laser cut flat packs so all you need to do is glue the cabinets together, screw in the drivers and crossover and apply the finish of your choice. No special tools or woodworking skills are required.
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post #1036 of 1042 Old 04-17-2019, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James A. McGahee View Post
Thanks for your reply!

Not getting many suggestions though. I'm not sure I am up to a DIY kit although the price difference is intriguing.

Is there anyone here who is sure of a better sounding/quality pair of speakers for the same or less price of the Klipsch RF-IIIs?

Over the years I have most enjoyed my pair of left and right Acoustic Research AR2AX (1970ish) and my three used L/C/R Altec Lancing Voice of the Theater speakers. They had clarity, great stereo separation, impact (exp. the Altecs), etc.

They were sealed speakers. Not sure I'll like ported speakers better. I have had a few but the two mentioned brands to me still sounded best.


Do those of you who have had both ported and sealed feel the same way.

Would still like more suggestions/recommendations for speakers in the same or less price range as the Klipsch RF-IIIs that produce better or at least same results for classical (instrumental & vocal) music as well as action movies.

Thanks-
Have you ever measured your in room frequency response? In my opinion, there are many many many things that need to be taken into consideration if you are serious about getting the best sound (to your ears at least) our of a system. Taking a methodical approach to understanding why you like a certain sound is more important than the actual speaker itself.

You put a RF-III in a different room and it can (and most likely will) sound like a COMPLETELY different speaker. Taking an objective measurement to visualize what you subjectively "like" is a good starting point. You might be getting some room gain in the bass region that makes your RF-III sound incredible when running full range. You might find that your lack of room treatments gives you a +3db peak at 5KHz that you LOVE. Armed with that objective data (knowledge?), you will be able to take a similarly designed speaker (assuming similar specs/capability) and I would put money on the fact that you could EQ and level match each speaker to sound similar to the point that you couldn't tell the difference.

Do you want to rely on people's recommendations, or do you want to understand why you like the RF-III's so much?
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post #1037 of 1042 Old 04-17-2019, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James A. McGahee View Post
Thanks for your reply!

Not getting many suggestions though. I'm not sure I am up to a DIY kit although the price difference is intriguing.

Is there anyone here who is sure of a better sounding/quality pair of speakers for the same or less price of the Klipsch RF-IIIs?

Over the years I have most enjoyed my pair of left and right Acoustic Research AR2AX (1970ish) and my three used L/C/R Altec Lancing Voice of the Theater speakers. They had clarity, great stereo separation, impact (exp. the Altecs), etc.

They were sealed speakers. Not sure I'll like ported speakers better. I have had a few but the two mentioned brands to me still sounded best.


Do those of you who have had both ported and sealed feel the same way.

Would still like more suggestions/recommendations for speakers in the same or less price range as the Klipsch RF-IIIs that produce better or at least same results for classical (instrumental & vocal) music as well as action movies.

Thanks-

I don't know about price.

There is no substitute for listening to them, properly installed, with a variety of music. I don't know where you live or how much traveling you do, but if you go on the Klipsch Pilgrimage, you will probably get a chance to hear most of the speakers listed below. There is a thread dedicated to this on the Klipsch Community Forum. Better hurry -- it's soon.

The best Klipsch, in descending order of quality, IMO, are:

  • Either the Klipsch Jubilee for the home, with bi-amping, distance/phase correcting, and EQ, as configured by Roy Delgado of Klipsch. It has a WAF of 0, due to its huge mid/treble horn. OR A Klipsch professional theater system but only one with horn loading in the bass, as well as in the mid/treble, i.e., "fully horn loaded." Also a WAF of 0.

  • The new Klipschorn AK6 with its new tweeter. It has been out about 4-5 months. Fully horn loaded.
  • The La Scala AL5 (it's fully horn loaded) with its new tweeter, AND a subwoofer below about 80 Hz, preferably a horn loaded one. There are DIY options on the horn subs.
  • The Forte III, not fully horn loaded & requires experimentation in placement.
  • The RF7 III, not fully horn loaded, and requires experimentation in placement.
Fully horn loaded speakers have lower modulation distortion than other designs. On modulation distortion:
https://www.stereophile.com/content/red-shift-doppler-distortion-loudspeakers-page-3#omWdye7G676SYg0g.99


They are usually super efficient.



Don't get me wrong, all of the above are excellent.

Last edited by garygarrison; 04-17-2019 at 08:46 PM.
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post #1038 of 1042 Old 04-18-2019, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James A. McGahee View Post
Would still like more suggestions/recommendations for speakers in the same or less price range as the Klipsch RF-IIIs that produce better or at least same results for classical (instrumental & vocal) music as well as action movies.

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Take a look at the JTR Noesis line.
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post #1039 of 1042 Old 04-20-2019, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irishluck73 View Post
Take a look at the JTR Noesis line.
HUGE fan of JTR and the Noesis line. The Noesis 210RT would be the most comparable to the RF III's, albiet a bit more expensive.
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post #1040 of 1042 Old 06-20-2019, 12:17 PM
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Starke Sound Halo IC-H5 ELITE. 92 sensitivity, 4 ohm nominal, 500 watt capability. I think this fits the bill.

JDM World: https://www.youtube.com/jdmworld
GSG Full Marty Build: https://youtu.be/-U1deD_0j9c
UM18-22 Sealed Subwoofer Build: https://youtu.be/7ifac8Rh8gk
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post #1041 of 1042 Old 06-20-2019, 11:26 PM
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Came across the Tyler Acoustics Pro Dynamics line. Use Eminence pro drivers. Claimed sensitivities from 101dB to 97dB (no conditions stated).

[Cardas solder; bi-wiring terminals? A whiff of snake oil thrown in for good measure.]
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post #1042 of 1042 Old 07-18-2019, 07:45 AM
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Does anybody know a store in EU that sells Airpulse A200 that ships to all EU countries?
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