**The Official Chane Music and Cinema owner's thread** - Page 116 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3451 of 4761 Old 09-21-2018, 01:45 PM - Thread Starter
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**The Official Chane Music and Cinema owner's thread**

Quote:
Originally Posted by aarons915 View Post
It really depends on the speakers, the original intent of the 2nd order high pass was that your mains would be sealed and have it's own 2nd order high pass around 80Hz, which would sum with the electronic high pass to complete the 4th order slope. As we all know, most speakers these days are ported and don't have this rolloff so usually the combined sub/sat response is erratic in the crossover region. A 4th order high pass solves this assuming your mains are flat at least a half octave below your crossover frequency. Another way of achieving this is using a 2nd order high pass and sealing your ports as Jon mentions on the setup guide.



Sometimes, if your mains are rolling off by 100Hz or so, they'll still work with a 2nd order high pass, that's actually what I'm doing currently. This is all theory though, no matter what you have to measure your particular situation to see what works best regarding placement, crossover frequency, slope, etc. Either way, I like having the option for multiple slopes because it gives you a better chance at getting your sub and mains to blend properly.


Very well stated.

I'll add for others that don't know what you know, which is that any passive roll off curve other than a first order introduces phase anomalies. Assuming that the digital filters inside a std AVR are linear phase (most aren't; and this is where the Emotiva and MiniDSP come into their own), one would only have to account for the phase wrap in the actual loudspeaker system itself. I'm pretty sure emo uses FIR filters in their pre-pro as opposed to IIR. Which are preferable but VERY CPU intensive. Someone correct me if this info is incorrect. One huge audiophile reason to move to a separates platform. A reason which is fully justifiable to me.

2nd order passive filters (12dB/octave) typically incorporate about 180 degrees of phase wrap. 4th order have a full 360 degrees of phase wrap (they're usually created by cascading two 2nd order filters). So, 4th order is proper phase but introduces symmetrical phase set-back/delay.

I'm honestly not up on the specific DSP programming used for common AVRs.


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post #3452 of 4761 Old 09-21-2018, 02:13 PM
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Thanks for the reply, Aaron. For those of us with receivers, we are limited to the 2nd order highpass and 4th order lowpass. In my case the theory held when I plugged my 1.4s, so I was curious if it was true in your case. I'd like to have that flexibility.

Lately, I've been unplugging them for movie watching, just to experiment. I know what the graphs say, but I've been at this long enough to know that what measures best isn't always the most subjectively pleasing. I still keep them plugged for music. My biggest challenge is keeping the plugs away from the kittens.
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post #3453 of 4761 Old 09-21-2018, 11:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vergiliusm View Post
Thanks for the reply, Aaron. For those of us with receivers, we are limited to the 2nd order highpass and 4th order lowpass. In my case the theory held when I plugged my 1.4s, so I was curious if it was true in your case. I'd like to have that flexibility.

Lately, I've been unplugging them for movie watching, just to experiment. I know what the graphs say, but I've been at this long enough to know that what measures best isn't always the most subjectively pleasing. I still keep them plugged for music. My biggest challenge is keeping the plugs away from the kittens.
I did find plugging the A1 and using a 2nd order high pass blended well with my sub but I always thought they sounded better with the ports open, I also like how ports reduce distortion at and above the port tuning so I prefer to use them that way. That's the main reason why I wanted a processor with 4th order slopes, to keep the ports open and still have the 4th order high and low pass.

These days I actually prefer to cross over around 100Hz with a 2nd order high pass just to let my mains do a bit more of the bass and letting the sub fill in what they're missing.
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post #3454 of 4761 Old 09-21-2018, 11:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aarons915 View Post
I did find plugging the A1 and using a 2nd order high pass blended well with my sub but I always thought they sounded better with the ports open, I also like how ports reduce distortion at and above the port tuning so I prefer to use them that way.
Can you cite a source for this? In subwoofer threads you'll read about how sealed designs have lower distortion.

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post #3455 of 4761 Old 09-22-2018, 01:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aarons915 View Post
I did find plugging the A1 and using a 2nd order high pass blended well with my sub but I always thought they sounded better with the ports open, I also like how ports reduce distortion at and above the port tuning so I prefer to use them that way.
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
Can you cite a source for this? In subwoofer threads you'll read about how sealed designs have lower distortion.
The sealed speaker and it's higher, shallower cutoff adds to a 2nd order electrical highpass such that together they blend well with the typical 4th order sub crossover at 80Hz. Other responses may ripple through the passband when lumped together.

These phenomena do not relate to distortion in the same was that distortion applies to speaker type, especially subwoofers. At the tuning frequency a vented speaker replaces driver output with port output, lowering distortion but at the expense of group delay - the port lags. A sealed speaker cannot deliver nearly the extension of a vented speaker, but it has better cone control below the vented speaker's resonance as well as in a region above it.

When it comes to distortion many sealed vs vented conversations fail to note that the vented speaker simply has vastly more output at low frequencies, and efforts to equalize a sealed counterpart to compensate must raise its distortion significantly.

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post #3456 of 4761 Old 09-22-2018, 02:25 PM
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Updating from yesterday: Apparently we were held up a day or two beyond the 18th. The recent hurricane affected ports in the southeastern US and a few hundred A2.4s and A5.4s scheduled into Jacksonville and then Tampa were briefly delayed.

Yesterday afternoon we had some weather-related outages which interrupted communications. Service was restored just before end of the business day, and since it's now Saturday I doubt the warehouse lead will update us before Monday. I do know that all orders are processed to go, and when they do they'll all go together. The team is very good - the best I've ever worked with - and will do everything to expedite.

I really appreciate the generous understanding so many of you have shared. Thanks, folks!
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post #3457 of 4761 Old 09-22-2018, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Lane View Post
A sealed speaker cannot deliver nearly the extension of a vented speaker
I don't believe this is true. If you take subwoofers from Rythmik, for example, their sealed designs extend lower than their vented designs. My little sealed 12" extends to 14Hz at -2dB in open space. In-room I'm flat to 10Hz. Only their largest, 18" and dual-15" triple-vented subs reach that. Typically, vented designs don't reach that kind of extension without larger drivers and much larger enclosures to drastically lower their tuning frequency. We're talking double to triple the size of subwoofer. What they do, however, is produce a shelf of extra output at their port tune frequency before dropping off.

Quote:
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but it has better cone control below the vented speaker's resonance as well as in a region above it.
Which would lower distortion, right?

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Originally Posted by Jon Lane View Post
When it comes to distortion many sealed vs vented conversations fail to note that the vented speaker simply has vastly more output at low frequencies, and efforts to equalize a sealed counterpart to compensate must raise its distortion significantly.
If you had to add boost via EQ to make your comparison, I don't believe it's a logical or fair comparison. Taken as-is, the ported sub had greater distortion yet greater output in the region around the tuning frequency (flatter response), while the sealed subwoofer gradually rolls off yet reaches a lower extension with lower distortion. Choose what's right for you.

One would assume the same physics applies to the speakers in question, but I'm no designer.

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post #3458 of 4761 Old 09-22-2018, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Lane View Post
Updating from yesterday: Apparently we were held up a day or two beyond the 18th. The recent hurricane affected ports in the southeastern US and a few hundred A2.4s and A5.4s scheduled into Jacksonville and then Tampa were briefly delayed.

Yesterday afternoon we had some weather-related outages which interrupted communications. Service was restored just before end of the business day, and since it's now Saturday I doubt the warehouse lead will update us before Monday. I do know that all orders are processed to go, and when they do they'll all go together. The team is very good - the best I've ever worked with - and will do everything to expedite.

I really appreciate the generous understanding so many of you have shared. Thanks, folks!
@Jon Lane Thanks for the write. I take it from the update that 2.4s and 5.4s have *not* yet arrived in your warehouse ??
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post #3459 of 4761 Old 09-22-2018, 03:43 PM
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Soulburner, the premise assumes similar sized systems before equalization and similar efficiencies - apples to apples. The vented system will see a lower acoustical -3dB and less cone excursion (with the exceptions noted). The comparable sealed system will cutoff higher but slower, and will then experience higher output at some distance well below it, say -15dB or greater, although potentially with considerable excursion.

Electrical equalization naturally changes these factors.

One generally doesn't drive a vented system below resonance. Above it and where port output reinforces cone output, it has the advantage (with the exception of increased group delay).

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post #3460 of 4761 Old 09-22-2018, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by padu86 View Post
@Jon Lane Thanks for the write. I take it from the update that 2.4s and 5.4s have *not* yet arrived in your warehouse ??

Not having been in touch yesterday, I don't know. They could actually already be shipped to you although if they were typically I'd have gotten reports. We'll know Monday for sure.
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post #3461 of 4761 Old 09-22-2018, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Lane View Post
Soulburner, the premise assumes similar sized systems before equalization and similar efficiencies - apples to apples. The vented system will see a lower acoustical -3dB and less cone excursion (with the exceptions noted). The comparable sealed system will cutoff higher but slower, and will then experience higher output at some distance well below it, say -15dB or greater, although potentially with considerable excursion.

Electrical equalization naturally changes these factors.

One generally doesn't drive a vented system below resonance. Above it and where port output reinforces cone output, it has the advantage (with the exception of increased group delay).
I did a little more reading and you are right that distortion is reduced at and above port tuning frequency. That is counter to what I previously thought (maybe I was mixing it up with other aberrations such as group delay?). This is because the efficiency granted by the port can reduce excursion. That is the meat that I was looking for. And by advantage, clearly you mean in output and distortion, but at the expense of a higher Q as well.

Regarding extension, we agree on the characteristics of the curves, for the most part. However I still take issue to the differences in extension based on the language used. You would probably agree that the differences are much better explained by graphs rather than words. However, quality sealed subwoofers have lower extension. Take for example two otherwise comparable models: Rythmik F15HP (sealed) and FV15HP (vented). The former is -2dB at 14Hz, while the latter is -2dB at 17Hz.
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post #3462 of 4761 Old 09-22-2018, 06:06 PM
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It depends on where you peg that extension, Soulburner, whether at -3 or even -6dB, or at an octave below cutoff....
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post #3463 of 4761 Old 09-22-2018, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
I did a little more reading and you are right that distortion is reduced at and above port tuning frequency. That is counter to what I previously thought (maybe I was mixing it up with other aberrations such as group delay?). This is because the efficiency granted by the port can reduce excursion. That is the meat that I was looking for. And by advantage, clearly you mean in output and distortion, but at the expense of a higher Q as well.

Regarding extension, we agree on the characteristics of the curves, for the most part. However I still take issue to the differences in extension based on the language used. You would probably agree that the differences are much better explained by graphs rather than words. However, quality sealed subwoofers have lower extension. Take for example two otherwise comparable models: Rythmik F15HP (sealed) and FV15HP (vented). The former is -2dB at 14Hz, while the latter is -2dB at 17Hz.
I think subwoofers and ported speakers should be treated separately. I agree that sealed subs work better in the deep bass for the reasons you stated. But ported mains have the benefit of lower driver excursion at and above the port tuning frequency without the drawbacks below the tuning frequency assuming you have the system crossed over sufficiently high. I don't really know how high is enough but I usually cross around 100Hz which puts the signal down 12 db at 50Hz, close to the typical port tuning frequency of 5-6" bookshelf speakers.
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post #3464 of 4761 Old 09-23-2018, 09:54 AM
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If it makes you feel better, Soulburner, if your goal is to have sub extension in the low teens, I think we'd all agree that sealed is the way to go, but as mentioned, its a separate issue from the alignment of the main speakers and the system crossover.. It is an interesting topic, nonetheless, and this discussion will be helpful for members new to these concepts.

When I was using the Kef Q100s as mains, I crossed over at 100 Hz. Now with the Chane 1.4s, I crossover at 80. I think its a fairly subtle difference. Ultimately, you have to look at all the variables(equipment, room, placement, and preferences)and for us who are into it, experiment, measure, and LISTEN. I've had a lot of fun, but my girlfriend probably thinks I'm crazy.

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post #3465 of 4761 Old 09-24-2018, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Lane View Post
Not having been in touch yesterday, I don't know. They could actually already be shipped to you although if they were typically I'd have gotten reports. We'll know Monday for sure.


@Jon Lane - would be good to get an update ....
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post #3466 of 4761 Old 09-24-2018, 01:02 PM
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@Jon Lane - would be good to get an update ....

Thanks padu86. Customer shipping resumed today around 1:30pm Eastern and the first few dozen have been sent to the dock. Tracking numbers will being issued throughout the day. We should have everything to FedEx before end of day tomorrow.

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post #3467 of 4761 Old 09-24-2018, 02:29 PM
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Thanks padu86. Customer shipping resumed today around 1:30pm Eastern and the first few dozen have been sent to the dock. Tracking numbers will being issued throughout the day. We should have everything to FedEx before end of day tomorrow.
Great news,,, thanks Jon!!

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post #3468 of 4761 Old 09-24-2018, 05:46 PM
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FYI to those wondering on status -- I just received my fedex shipping notification. My 2.4s and 1.4s will be in MN by Thursday!
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post #3469 of 4761 Old 09-25-2018, 01:02 PM
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I am still loving my trio of Chane A2.4s and had the opportunity this weekend to listen to some larger, more expensive speakers. Although the other speakers were definitely more efficient and could fill a large space with little effort, I came away even more impressed with the A2.4. Don't get me wrong, the other speakers were a bit better and got louder with less power, but given how favorably the Chanes compared to something more than double the cost and size, the A2.4 is an amazing speaker.

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post #3470 of 4761 Old 09-25-2018, 03:44 PM
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I am still loving my trio of Chane A2.4s and had the opportunity this weekend to listen to some larger, more expensive speakers. Although the other speakers were definitely more efficient and could fill a large space with little effort, I came away even more impressed with the A2.4. Don't get me wrong, the other speakers were a bit better and got louder with less power, but given how favorably the Chanes compared to something more than double the cost and size, the A2.4 is an amazing speaker.
I'm getting jacked up here with more comments like this especially after receiving my FedEx confirmation numbers for all of my speakers today. M-U-S-T C-A-L-M D-O-W-N
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post #3471 of 4761 Old 09-26-2018, 02:11 PM
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I'm getting jacked up here with more comments like this especially after receiving my FedEx confirmation numbers for all of my speakers today. M-U-S-T C-A-L-M D-O-W-N
Same here. Pumped. Building a house with dedicated HT which won't be done until April. Ordered these and already prepped the wife to get comfortable with us hooking them up in our 600 sqft apartment Will probably have to settle for using the 1.4s as L & R only for such a small space. 2.4 L/C/R across the front might get us kicked out!
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post #3472 of 4761 Old 09-26-2018, 05:29 PM
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Same here. Pumped. Building a house with dedicated HT which won't be done until April. Ordered these and already prepped the wife to get comfortable with us hooking them up in our 600 sqft apartment Will probably have to settle for using the 1.4s as L & R only for such a small space. 2.4 L/C/R across the front might get us kicked out!
Man that is going to take more discipline than i have lol. Hopefully you can use both even at lower volumes so their well broken in by April. Not sure if they need higher volumes to really get broken in but any use will be good.
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@jonlane

Any progress on the L7s?

Any details you can share what they gonna look like? Spec-wise??
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post #3474 of 4761 Old 09-27-2018, 04:43 AM
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Any progress on the L7s?

Any details you can share what they gonna look like? Spec-wise??
Thanks, mpk1970. There's a thread in our forum and I'd be happy to fill you in personally if you'd care to get in touch. I look forward to it.

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post #3475 of 4761 Old 09-27-2018, 06:31 AM
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Same here. Pumped. Building a house with dedicated HT which won't be done until April. Ordered these and already prepped the wife to get comfortable with us hooking them up in our 600 sqft apartment Will probably have to settle for using the 1.4s as L & R only for such a small space. 2.4 L/C/R across the front might get us kicked out!
You will enjoy them at lower volumes as well.
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post #3476 of 4761 Old 09-29-2018, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by chucks0 View Post
I am still loving my trio of Chane A2.4s and had the opportunity this weekend to listen to some larger, more expensive speakers. Although the other speakers were definitely more efficient and could fill a large space with little effort, I came away even more impressed with the A2.4.
Thanks, Chucks0. Chane needs to get into some larger format models...
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post #3477 of 4761 Old 09-30-2018, 09:29 AM
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I thought about posting a new thread but thought I would post in the owners thread to give Lane et al. a chance to see this.

I am looking into replacing my L/C/R and am interested in the 5.4/2.4 and perhaps the L series based on some reading I did on your native forum.

A brief background on my history as it is somewhat relevant. My current speakers are AV123 X-SLS and X-CS speakers with a crossover/tweeter upgrade from "skiing ninja," who at the time worked for the company. I forget the guys real name. At the time, I drank the AV123/Mark Shefter koolaid. Was active on their forums, etc. The guy was a hell of a salesman, but sadly a crook as those who know that story know too well. Sadly he ended up scamming me out of a subwoofer when the whole thing went belly up. Lesson learned I suppose. Last I heard he was in prison but maybe had weaseled his way back into the AV industry.

Anyway, I preface my questions with that brief story as I have seen all of this before. Small ID company, rabid fanboys, great "bang for your buck" reviews, etc, so my trust is somewhat guarded. Additionally, Craigsub/Craig Chase was around at AV123 when all this went down so his prior involvement (although I understand he's gone) with this venture gives me pause.

So circling back around, my reading has lead me to the usual suspects, and I am looking closer at the Emotiva T1/T2 and C1 vs the Chane line. I am trying to figure out if this is the same trap that I found myself in years ago with an ID brand, and wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt as from what Ive read you seem like a good guy.

I will probably wait and see what this upcoming October/November sale looks like and see where the L series shakes up before making a decision. Feel free to PM me if thats easier given the somewhat touchy backstory.
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post #3478 of 4761 Old 09-30-2018, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavinwow View Post
I thought about posting a new thread but thought I would post in the owners thread to give Lane et al. a chance to see this.
Hi Mavinwow; finishing preliminary design on a few new models and saw this come over the transom. I'll address a few things before hopefully knocking off for the day.

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Originally Posted by Mavinwow View Post
A brief background on my history as it is somewhat relevant. My current speakers are AV123 X-SLS and X-CS speakers with a crossover/tweeter upgrade from "skiing ninja," who at the time worked for the company. I forget the guys real name.
Sean Park, a great guy - and a supplier for one of my custom models a few years back. I hope he's well.

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Originally Posted by Mavinwow View Post
At the time, I drank the AV123/Mark Shefter koolaid. Was active on their forums, etc. The guy was a hell of a salesman, but sadly a crook as those who know that story know too well. Sadly he ended up scamming me out of a subwoofer when the whole thing went belly up. Lesson learned I suppose. Last I heard he was in prison but maybe had weaseled his way back into the AV industry.
I'm genuinely sorry to hear that. I have no experience with the product and for that matter, the company for 17 years. If Sean was involved it could have been good stuff for all I know, but even that's not for me to say further.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavinwow View Post
Anyway, I preface my questions with that brief story as I have seen all of this before. Small ID company, rabid fanboys, great "bang for your buck" reviews, etc, so my trust is somewhat guarded. Additionally, Craigsub/Craig Chase was around at AV123 when all this went down so his prior involvement (although I understand he's gone) with this venture gives me pause.
Of course how you react is entirely up to you, Mavinwow, although I've been at this since 2003 and in general, since the 80's. I certainly have no plans for anything but growth - we're enjoying our best year yet and have spent the last three years in design and expanded sourcing. Still, Chane is small and largely a labor of idealism and love.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavinwow View Post
So circling back around, my reading has lead me to the usual suspects, and I am looking closer at the Emotiva T1/T2 and C1 vs the Chane line. I am trying to figure out if this is the same trap that I found myself in years ago with an ID brand, and wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt as from what Ive read you seem like a good guy.
Again, how you react is yours to decide...although usual suspects is an interesting choice of words. We've been maligned our share and in each case for phantoms or agenda. As I said, I'm in this for the idealism of doing X or Y right and if for some reason I cannot, then indeed there's no reason to play at it. I like to conclude that when we make a design according to specific rationale our customers hear it like we do. In fact, I consistently hear them describe back to me exactly the sensations we aimed to create, as modest as our current offerings are. There are worse ways to pass your time, I think you'll agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavinwow View Post
I will probably wait and see what this upcoming October/November sale looks like and see where the L series shakes up before making a decision. Feel free to PM me if thats easier given the somewhat touchy backstory.
If I can lend a hand or an ear, please, call or write. I'm genuinely happy to fill you in on whatever interests you in this regard. Many have and I trust they've come away informed.

You'll understand that there's little more I care to add in public and I genuinely wish you the best in whatever path you choose.

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post #3479 of 4761 Old 10-04-2018, 11:35 AM
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entertrainment center to fit 1.4s and 2.4

Hello All,

I am trying to find an entertainment center that will fit LCR of 1.4/2.4/1.4. I calculate that the 1.4s, would take up a little over 12 inches each of wall space (I'll be sitting pretty close, maybe 5 feet plus or minus). That would leave me with a max TV size of ~34 inches (width ~30 inches). Of course I would prefer to go much bigger on the TV, perhaps a 55 inch (width ~49"). But then I would need to put all three speakers under the TV. I am struggling to find an entertainment center that can fit these three speakers under the TV and still have room for an AVR, Blue ray player, etc. I was mostly drawn to the Chanes because you can plug them. I simply don't have room to have the speakers 12-18 inches away from the wall. However, the speaker sizes are a little more awkward to fit under a TV than say with an Emotiva set up.

On Amazon, I found the "Whalen Furniture Santa Fe 3-in-1 TV Stand" but the shelf height won't fit the 1.4s.

Any ideas?

~tubby
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post #3480 of 4761 Old 10-04-2018, 04:18 PM
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Speaker stands.
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