**The Official Chane Music and Cinema owner's thread** - Page 143 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4261 of 4643 Old 06-05-2019, 09:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
How did you measure your noise floor?


I didn't. I could hear it drop, such was the delta between pre and post implementation.


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post #4262 of 4643 Old 06-05-2019, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post
I didn't. I could hear it drop, such was the delta between pre and post implementation.
If you still have the old cord and a mic, I'd be curious to see how much of a difference it made, since I can't hear it from here . If you have time, of course.

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post #4263 of 4643 Old 06-05-2019, 02:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
If you still have the old cord and a mic, I'd be curious to see how much of a difference it made, since I can't hear it from here . If you have time, of course.


I do and i do and i do not. I am scheduled for about a trial every week from now until the beginning of October. I've got zero time.

And it would be a waste of my time, anyway. I started with audible hiss from 8 ft away in a quiet room and now i have no hiss from one foot away at the same gain level. Granted i don't have the best power, but that's going to be tens of dB difference in my professional experience.


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post #4264 of 4643 Old 06-06-2019, 01:45 AM
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I think it's only proper to couch lobing effects in what people have actually heard from them in real terms, in the real world, with real listening material. I've heard awful to amazing, depending on driver spacing, driver offset, driver selection, and crossover design choices.

People throw the word around here on AVS and Reddit. But nobody seems to be able to make the jump to 'explaining to the jury' what it means for what people will actually hear. Not what theory says they SHOULD hear, but what they DO hear.
You don't hear a lot of discussion about it, so I was glad to see it mentioned. I doubt many, even here, have heard the difference, although wave guides and MTMs are becoming more common. We are perhaps used to our downward tilting lobes, and as you mentioned, it is but one factor of many with good and bad examples depending on other design choices made.
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post #4265 of 4643 Old 06-06-2019, 06:42 AM - Thread Starter
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You don't hear a lot of discussion about it, so I was glad to see it mentioned. I doubt many, even here, have heard the difference, although wave guides and MTMs are becoming more common. We are perhaps used to our downward tilting lobes, and as you mentioned, it is but one factor of many with good and bad examples depending on other design choices made.


Very well said. Agreed 100%.

I understand and sympathize with the desire to attempt to draw meaningful conclusions from data, but the data set is so incomplete and the jump so large. Elihawk highlights a solid point that for ID brands, there needs to be some way to triage the available options down to a manageable number of concrete options. I wish there were that mechanism. But, right now, there just isn't.

Where we currently stand is tantamount to looking at a Dyno graph and spec sheet of a race car and using that to "predict" a lap time on a real track. The prediction is very close to meaningless when discussing similar motors and similar chassis. It's literally a futile exercise.

So the option we have is to understand and accurately contextualize real user accounts, soliciting as much input from the actual user as is possible and reasonable. Weigh that against their experience level and taste (unless they have none/are a neophyte). And that's all we can do right now.

I realize that if this fact were truly observed, forum traffic would dwindle and post counts would stagnate for many users here. But that MUST be okay.


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post #4266 of 4643 Old 06-06-2019, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Transmaniacon View Post
Updated some of my cables to clean things up and improve aesthetics.

If anyone needs a good stand for the Chanes, I highly recommend the Monoprice Monolith stands, great build quality and aesthetics.

Very Very nice looking system. I have the same power bar from Amazon for my treadmill. It keep it from tripping the breaker in my bedroom. Now I might get another if I ever get my system up and running.

I bet people that come over will think your system is priced higher then it is. Great work.
Feeling good about your system is also key to it sounding great.
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post #4267 of 4643 Old 06-06-2019, 07:13 AM
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Very Very nice looking system. I have the same power bar from Amazon for my treadmill. It keep it from tripping the breaker in my bedroom. Now I might get another if I ever get my system up and running.



I bet people that come over will think your system is priced higher then it is. Great work.

Feeling good about your system is also key to it sounding great.


Thanks! I work on it here and there when I can, next up is a nicer audio rack.
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post #4268 of 4643 Old 06-06-2019, 03:26 PM
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Where we currently stand is tantamount to looking at a Dyno graph and spec sheet of a race car and using that to "predict" a lap time on a real track. The prediction is very close to meaningless when discussing similar motors and similar chassis. It's literally a futile exercise.

So the option we have is to understand and accurately contextualize real user accounts, soliciting as much input from the actual user as is possible and reasonable. Weigh that against their experience level and taste (unless they have none/are a neophyte). And that's all we can do right now.
I think we're mixing threads, but yes, I agree with your assessment, for as it stands now there's little beyond axial frequency response. It doesn't have to be that way as has been lamented in the "How to Choose a Loudspeaker: What the Science Shows" thread. For a lot of companies, it's probably not in their best interest to publish comprehensive data. In a fair world, the companies who do would be rewarded, but who said life is fair?

Opinions from actual users are a double edged sword. I enjoy reading member's experiences, but I can't say it sways my opinion one way or the other generally. There are so many variables, it's hard to glean any definitive information, and how many times have you read a post from a member you "know" (in the forum sense) and respect, who doesn't share the same opinion of a speaker you have heard or own?

So what do we do? The best we can.
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post #4269 of 4643 Old 06-06-2019, 09:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Vergiliusm View Post
I think we're mixing threads, but yes, I agree with your assessment, for as it stands now there's little beyond axial frequency response. It doesn't have to be that way as has been lamented in the "How to Choose a Loudspeaker: What the Science Shows" thread. For a lot of companies, it's probably not in their best interest to publish comprehensive data. In a fair world, the companies who do would be rewarded, but who said life is fair?

Opinions from actual users are a double edged sword. I enjoy reading member's experiences, but I can't say it sways my opinion one way or the other generally. There are so many variables, it's hard to glean any definitive information, and how many times have you read a post from a member you "know" (in the forum sense) and respect, who doesn't share the same opinion of a speaker you have heard or own?

So what do we do? The best we can.


You should know that none of what I've said in this thread or others was in any measure directed at you.

I tend to agree with your post, but i remain deeply concerned with people who make clear, apparently definitive statements about loudspeakers which they have never heard at all. I'm being kind, but a plain reading of many posts would easily indicate to virtually all reasonable readers that the person making the comment HAD heard the speakers.

It comes across to me like a bunch of chemistry enthusiasts standing outside a wine tasting, with a running commentary on what the wines inside the tasting event SHOULD taste like (because 'science'), and then proselytizing people as they are walking in about which wines they should and should not taste. And how each SHOULD strike the pallet. It's the curation, driven by ambiguous and deceptive narrative, that i will remain concerned about.

To be clear, i don't mislead anybody about what i have and haven't heard. I've never said I've heard, or lead anyone to believe i have heard, any speaker that i have not in fact heard. I live in a reality and a profession where that is basically career suicide.

I can't tell anyone else how to conduct themselves, but i think that some clarifying questions may need to be asked, going forward, just to prevent new readers or Google searchers post-jump from getting the incorrect idea.


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post #4270 of 4643 Old 06-06-2019, 10:59 PM
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I took it in the way you intended, so no worries. I know of the thread you mean. In this thread, among other things, you were talking about physical time alignment, which I was hoping would lead into a discussion about general issues in the time domain. Most of the talk in any thread about measurements typically revolves around frequency response, and it is very important, especially if it includes more than just on-axis measurements. Time measurements like impulse and step responses are less common, harder to interpret for some, and there's not even complete agreement about their level of importance.

As for the other thread and issue, I'm sympathetic to your viewpoint. Ideally, a member should disclose if they've heard the speakers under discussion. I can understand deriving opinions from other peripheral information, because after all, we are into this more than the average person, but the usual disclaimers should apply. I think in most cases there's no malice intended.

But back to the Chane thread, I'm genuinely interested in what you and Jon wish to share about your viewpoints on the time domain, and I'm sure others are too.
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post #4271 of 4643 Old 06-07-2019, 06:43 AM - Thread Starter
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**The Official Chane Music and Cinema owner's thread**

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Originally Posted by Vergiliusm View Post
I took it in the way you intended, so no worries. I know of the thread you mean. In this thread, among other things, you were talking about physical time alignment, which I was hoping would lead into a discussion about general issues in the time domain. Most of the talk in any thread about measurements typically revolves around frequency response, and it is very important, especially if it includes more than just on-axis measurements. Time measurements like impulse and step responses are less common, harder to interpret for some, and there's not even complete agreement about their level of importance.



As for the other thread and issue, I'm sympathetic to your viewpoint. Ideally, a member should disclose if they've heard the speakers under discussion. I can understand deriving opinions from other peripheral information, because after all, we are into this more than the average person, but the usual disclaimers should apply. I think in most cases there's no malice intended.



But back to the Chane thread, I'm genuinely interested in what you and Jon wish to share about your viewpoints on the time domain, and I'm sure others are too.


Well, as for what will be shared right now, honestly not much. Lol.

However, the debate of its importance will soon change.

Too soon for details. But they will come.

As for no malice, i tend to agree. It just becomes difficult to logically accept when time and time again two speakers, both of which i have heard, receive solicitations for comment so that the solicitor can make a purchase decision.... then comments arrive, and the purchase decision gets made. Then i actually go back and READ the comments tendered and they're not representative of the real world.

Bearing in mind that I'm a professional audio and video forensic engineer, an expert witness on the subject of audio in court, and i finished my annual audiogram on Tuesday (no hearing loss, yay!), I have a better idea than most of what's going on in a loudspeaker just by listening. So when i see information that collides and contrasts with my extensive real world experience, my BS detector goes off. However, that happens all the time here on AVS. The alarm comes from the fact that, for the same reason that people cannot compare systems in a showroom, the person who buys the mildly flawed speaker vs the less mildly flawed one, THEY'LL NEVER KNOW what they left on the table.

There are lots of speakers I've heard that i don't talk about here on AVS for various reasons; with issues of professionalism and proximity being chief among them. But that means that when, say, a loudspeaker with a dry treble presentation and mediocre imaging at low to moderate volumes gets compared to another that has treble that isn't dry, with better imaging and much higher dynamic limits.... yet they're both called 'even' that tells me either the info is bad or the people tendering the opinion aren't listening properly (great Harman training on that subject, btw).

Either way, the consumer receives incorrect info and makes a purchase decision based off of that. Which should alarm everybody here. I know it alarms you, V. But it should alarm everybody.


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post #4272 of 4643 Old 06-07-2019, 06:47 AM
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Well, as for what will be shared right now, honestly not much. Lol.

However, the debate of its importance will soon change.

Too soon for details. But they will come.

As for no malice, i tend to agree. It just becomes difficult to logically accept when time and time again two speakers, both of which i have heard, receive solicitations for comment so that the solicitor can make a purchase decision.... then comments arrive, and the purchase decision gets made. Then i actually go back and READ the comments tendered and they're not representative of the real world.

Bearing in mind that I'm a professional audio and video forensic engineer, an expert witness on the subject of audio in court, and i finished my annual audiogram on Tuesday (no hearing loss, yay!), I have a better idea than most of what's going on in a loudspeaker just by listening. So when i see information that collides and contrasts with my extensive real world experience, my BS detector goes off. However, that happens all the time here on AVS. The alarm comes from the fact that, for the same reason that people cannot compare systems in a showroom, the person who buys the mildly flawed speaker vs the less mildly flawed one, THEY'LL NEVER KNOW wear they left on the table.

There are lots of speakers I've heard that i don't talk about here on AVS for various reasons; with issues of professionalism and proximity being chief among them. But that means that when, say, a loudspeaker with a dry treble presentation and mediocre imaging at low to moderate volumes gets compared to another that has treble that isn't dry, with better imaging and much higher dynamic limits.... yet they're both called 'even' that tells me either the info is bad or the people tendering the opinion aren't listening properly (great Harman training on that subject, btw).

Either way, the consumer receives incorrect info and makes a purchase decision based off of that. Which should alarm everybody here. I know it alarms you, V. But it should alarm everybody.


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What are you thoughts on toe-in for the A1.4? I’ve got my toed in a bit to my listening position, but not sure if you’ve found a sweet spot?

I’ve got about 3’ to each side wall and 2’ behind them, roughly 6’ apart at the moment.
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post #4273 of 4643 Old 06-07-2019, 06:53 AM - Thread Starter
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What are you thoughts on toe-in for the A1.4? I’ve got my toed in a bit to my listening position, but not sure if you’ve found a sweet spot?

I’ve got about 3’ to each side wall and 2’ behind them, roughly 6’ apart at the moment.


Can you take a picture from the MLP?

I've found that the range of toe where the A Line performs really well it's actually broad. However, it's a smaller window where they do special stuff.

I typically have A Line speakers aimed to converge between 6 and 18" behind my head. Typically.


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post #4274 of 4643 Old 06-07-2019, 06:55 AM
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Can you take a picture from the MLP?

I've found that the range of toe where the A Line performs really well it's actually broad. However, it's a smaller window where they do special stuff.

I typically have A Line speakers aimed to converge between 6 and 18" behind my head. Typically.


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I’ll take one when I get home from work today, I’d say that’s pretty close to where I have them now, I can just see the inside faces of the cabinets when I am at the main listening position.
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post #4275 of 4643 Old 06-07-2019, 07:01 AM - Thread Starter
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I’ll take one when I get home from work today, I’d say that’s pretty close to where I have them now, I can just see the inside faces of the cabinets when I am at the main listening position.


That's my usual MO; a sliver of the inside surface of the cabinet.

But play around. Moving a few degrees at a time. Every room is different.


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post #4276 of 4643 Old 06-07-2019, 07:04 AM
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That's my usual MO; a sliver of the inside surface of the cabinet.

But play around. Moving a few degrees at a time. Every room is different.


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Thanks I’ll give it a try! Supposed to rain all weekend here so I’ll have plenty of time to listen and tweak. Also got myself looking at some used SACD players, seems like Marantz has some nice vintage ones that are cheap, the DV6001 might be the ticket.
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post #4277 of 4643 Old 06-07-2019, 07:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks I’ll give it a try! Supposed to rain all weekend here so I’ll have plenty of time to listen and tweak. Also got myself looking at some used SACD players, seems like Marantz has some nice vintage ones that are cheap, the DV6001 might be the ticket.


Now is the time to get into that. Prices are crazy good.

I snagged a great DVD/CD player from Toshiba a while back for a song before CDs became hot again.

I should probably try to flip it for some $$$ but it sounds fantastic. The DV6001 is a front runner for me. With SQ being a primary concern and the interface being significantly less so for CD and SACD in my use.


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post #4278 of 4643 Old 06-07-2019, 07:54 AM
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Now is the time to get into that. Prices are crazy good.

I snagged a great DVD/CD player from Toshiba a while back for a song before CDs became hot again.

I should probably try to flip it for some $$$ but it sounds fantastic. The DV6001 is a front runner for me. With SQ being a primary concern and the interface being significantly less so for CD and SACD in my use.


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Thanks that’s good to know!
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post #4279 of 4643 Old 06-07-2019, 07:57 AM - Thread Starter
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**The Official Chane Music and Cinema owner's thread**

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Originally Posted by Transmaniacon View Post
Thanks that’s good to know!


This is the Toshiba i bought:

https://www.stereophile.com/hirezplayers/407/index.html

CD/DVD-V/DVD-A

EDIT: I've had it for many years now and i doubt i paid more than $100 shipped for a minty one with remote on fleabay, back when bought it (maybe in 2011-2012? Maybe earlier. I don't remember).


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post #4280 of 4643 Old 06-07-2019, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post
This is the Toshiba i bought:

https://www.stereophile.com/hirezplayers/407/index.html

CD/DVD-V/DVD-A


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That is hefty! I’ll dive in later on, but looks like an endgame unit for sure. I submitted an offer for one on EBay so we will see if the seller accepts.

Used CDs are so cheap nowadays, I’d like to get back to collecting them vs. streaming everything.
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post #4281 of 4643 Old 06-07-2019, 08:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Transmaniacon View Post
That is hefty! I’ll dive in later on, but looks like an endgame unit for sure. I submitted an offer for one on EBay so we will see if the seller accepts.

Used CDs are so cheap nowadays, I’d like to get back to collecting them vs. streaming everything.


It sounds disproportionately awesome for the price i paid. And in the review it noted a quirk of the firmware; you must set the digital output to PCM to get full audio quality from the analog outputs.


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post #4282 of 4643 Old 06-07-2019, 09:55 AM
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Every room is different, so it takes a little time to dial them in, as Buford mentioned. It looks like they have plenty of room to breathe, so that'll help. Mine are slightly toed-in, converging about18" behind the mlp. I think I've had them a little over a year now, and I'm still amazed at the image they throw, the authority they can deliver, and the nuances they can resolve for such a small, inexpensive speaker.

I don't know if I've mentioned before, but I'm ready for the L3's. I'm overdue for a speaker shift: the L3's or L3c's will go up front, the A1.4's will go to the rear, and the Kef Q100's will go up for atmos.
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post #4283 of 4643 Old 06-07-2019, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vergiliusm View Post
Every room is different, so it takes a little time to dial them in, as Buford mentioned. It looks like they have plenty of room to breathe, so that'll help. Mine are slightly toed-in, converging about18" behind the mlp. I think I've had them a little over a year now, and I'm still amazed at the image they throw, the authority they can deliver, and the nuances they can resolve for such a small, inexpensive speaker.

I don't know if I've mentioned before, but I'm ready for the L3's. I'm overdue for a speaker shift: the L3's or L3c's will go up front, the A1.4's will go to the rear, and the Kef Q100's will go up for atmos.
Perhaps you've already posted this somewhere, but I see you have the Chane A1.4s and the kef q100s. I have the kefs and would be curious to know how the chanes sound in comparison.
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post #4284 of 4643 Old 06-07-2019, 12:51 PM
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I really like the Uni-Q drivers. For some types of music, especially acoustic instruments in the jazz or folk genres and even classical, they can sound really special, with a very natural presence and detail. The downside is they lean a little bright, and because of the coaxial design, they can lose their composure as the volume rises. The brightness was mitigated to some degree by not toeing them in, but my system is multi-use--about 70/30 music and movies, so even in my smallish room, I felt like I needed fronts that could better handle the dynamic peaks in digital soundtracks.

The Kefs aren't bad in that regard by any means, but the Chanes are definitely better for my listening habits, most likely due to the xbl2 motors. I feel like the Chanes give me better performance all around, which is why I moved the Kefs to the rear. Imo, they are both excellent 2-ways in the budget range.

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post #4285 of 4643 Old 06-07-2019, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vergiliusm View Post
I really like the Uni-Q drivers. For some types of music, especially acoustic instruments in the jazz or folk genres and even classical, they can sound really special, with a very natural presence and detail. The downside is they lean a little bright, and because of the coaxial design, they can lose their composure as the volume rises. The brightness was mitigated to some degree by not toeing them in, but my system is multi-use--about 70/30 music and movies, so even in my smallish room, I felt like I needed fronts that could better handle the dynamic peaks in digital soundtracks.

The Kefs aren't bad in that regard by any means, but the Chanes are definitely better for my listening habits, most likely due to the xbl2 motors. I feel like the Chanes give me better performance all around, which is why I moved the Kefs to the rear. Imo, they are both excellent 2-ways in the budget range.
Thank you. I can say your experience with the kefs is similar to mine. I do more often listen at lower volumes and in room that is not very bright, so they mostly work for me. But who knows about what I might decide to try at another time...
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post #4286 of 4643 Old 06-07-2019, 03:48 PM
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If you're looking at about the same internal volume, the new A1.5s would be a good choice. If they're around the same size as the A1.4s, they will be a little taller than the Q100s, but not as deep. I may not be remembering correctly, but I thought Jon said he reworked the cabinets for a little more volume on the new models. If you want to jump up an acoustical class, then the L3 (bookshelf) or L3c (MTM) look really good from the little info. that has been shared on the Chane forum.

Considering what Jon did on the budget limited A series, I can't imagine the L series not being another knockout, and more refined that hits well above its weight class (price).

Incidentally, I've been really pleased with the Kefs as surround speakers. Those coaxial drivers throw out a wide, consistent image. I know some folks think of the surrounds as an afterthought, but I listen to a lot of hi-rez multichannel music, DTS CD's, and movies to a lesser degree, so the surrounds are very important to me for a cohesive, enveloping soundstage.
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Last edited by Vergiliusm; 06-07-2019 at 03:53 PM.
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post #4287 of 4643 Old 06-08-2019, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post
There are lots of speakers I've heard that i don't talk about here on AVS for various reasons; with issues of professionalism and proximity being chief among them...

[W]hen, say, a loudspeaker with [x] gets compared to another that has [y]...yet they're both called 'even' that tells me either the info is bad or the people tendering the opinion aren't listening properly...

Either way, the consumer receives incorrect info and makes a purchase decision based off of that. Which should alarm everybody here.
Many of us have said that when sound at the ear matters, hearing the device is the only way to know it. It's time to add that "science" - which is rigorous, vetted knowledge, hopefully of a comprehensive enough scope as to capture its relevant aspects - can be distinct enough from speculation as to actually refute it.

In order to be definitive, identify these factors as a matter of course.
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post #4288 of 4643 Old 06-10-2019, 06:10 AM
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I am about to place my order for a 5.1 system from chane (a5.4, 2.4, etc) but I want to do atmos in ceiling speakers. What recommendations do you guys have to match this system from an in ceiling or on ceiling standpoint?
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post #4289 of 4643 Old 06-10-2019, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vergiliusm View Post
If you're looking at about the same internal volume, the new A1.5s would be a good choice. If they're around the same size as the A1.4s, they will be a little taller than the Q100s, but not as deep. I may not be remembering correctly, but I thought Jon said he reworked the cabinets for a little more volume on the new models. If you want to jump up an acoustical class, then the L3 (bookshelf) or L3c (MTM) look really good from the little info. that has been shared on the Chane forum.

Considering what Jon did on the budget limited A series, I can't imagine the L series not being another knockout, and more refined that hits well above its weight class (price).

Incidentally, I've been really pleased with the Kefs as surround speakers. Those coaxial drivers throw out a wide, consistent image. I know some folks think of the surrounds as an afterthought, but I listen to a lot of hi-rez multichannel music, DTS CD's, and movies to a lesser degree, so the surrounds are very important to me for a cohesive, enveloping soundstage.
Where is this info on the L series? I've been following Chane for a few years, but I've lost track recently.
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post #4290 of 4643 Old 06-10-2019, 12:32 PM
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As mentioned, it's on the Chane forum. I intentionally said there was a little info. because at this stage of the game I wouldn't expect much more. As far as I can tell, the designs have been finalized, but they haven't gone into production, so I'm sure there's not much to report beyond alignment and configuration. Oh, and the drivers are from a certain Northern European design house.
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