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post #3121 of 3192 Old 08-10-2019, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by jima4a View Post
Totally agree with Ken above and would like to add that the Reference series IMO provides the scaled up versions of the LS50 or stated another way, the LS50 IMO is a mini Reference.
I have a half dozen LS50s and a pair of Ref 1s. Although I haven't heard Blades or Blade 2s, I thought the LS50 are more mini Blades than mini References series. LS50s and Blades share innovative cabinet design aimed at maximizing acoustics, whereas a more traditional appearance was a design parameter for the reference series -- my rosewood Ref 1s are quite handsome. I understand the LS50s, reference series, and Blades share many high-tech elements including cabinet material.

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post #3122 of 3192 Old 08-10-2019, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by dbphd View Post
I have a half dozen LS50s and a pair of Ref 1s. Although I haven't heard Blades or Blade 2s, I thought the LS50 are more mini Blades than mini References series. LS50s and Blades share innovative cabinet design aimed at maximizing acoustics, whereas a more traditional appearance was a design parameter for the reference series -- my rosewood Ref 1s are quite handsome. I understand the LS50s, reference series, and Blades share many high-tech elements including cabinet material.

db
Can you share what differences in sound you found between the two? I have 7 LS50, and been thinking about changing my front two for Ref 1. I have two powerful Rythmik subwoofers already.
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post #3123 of 3192 Old 08-10-2019, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Geronimo.USMC View Post
Can you share what differences in sound you found between the two? I have 7 LS50, and been thinking about changing my front two for Ref 1. I have two powerful Rythmik subwoofers already.
The Ref 1s seem to have a bit more dynamic range than the LS50s, and possibly a sweeter more refined sound. I replaced a pair of mid-90s KEF Ref 107/2s with first LS50s then Ref 1s. Both the LS50s and Ref 1 seem superior to the 107.2 for the fine timbre detail and imaging of the jazz and chamber music I prefer, but both lack the slam of the 107.2s for the quick crescendos of some large orchestrations. To obfuscate that judgement the 107.2s were driven by a Parasound JC 2 preamp and JC 1 monoblocks, the LS50s and Ref 1s by Ayre KX-5/20 preamp and VX-5/20 amp. When I play a Bill Evans trio recording using the Ayre/Ref 1 setup, I can easily believe the trio is in my room, something the 107.2s didn't quite pull off as fully; when I play the Decca Blu-ray of Aida, I'm a bit disappointed compared to my memory of the JC 1/107.2 setup. I prefer listening to jazz, baroque and classical music, but I enjoy the Stones and the Ref 1s are superb for that.

The exceptional sound of the LS50s seems difficult to beat for value.

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post #3124 of 3192 Old 08-17-2019, 02:22 PM
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post #3125 of 3192 Old 08-21-2019, 03:27 PM
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Any LS50 owners from Bay Area here?

My speaker selection is narrowed down to four: Paradigm 75F/85F floorstander, Ascend tower, Revel Performa F208 - or KEF LS50 (W or passive).

Would love to chat to someone who's owned KEF LS50 for a while?

I'm living in Menlo Park.
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post #3126 of 3192 Old 08-21-2019, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Neotinto View Post
Any LS50 owners from Bay Area here?

My speaker selection is narrowed down to four: Paradigm 75F/85F floorstander, Ascend tower, Revel Performa F208 - or KEF LS50 (W or passive).

Would love to chat to someone who's owned KEF LS50 for a while?

I'm living in Menlo Park.
Not from the Bay area but I've lived with the LS50's for awhile and compared them to RAAL bookshelf speakers and Revel M105, all were good speakers but none made me want to replace my LS50s. Since the other speakers you're considering are towers, the only way the LS50s are going to keep up in the bass department is by having subs along with them and crossed over around 100Hz. If you listen really loud and/or are not planning on using subs and properly dialing them in, I would go with the F208 towers. With dual subs properly setup, there isn't a speaker on the planet that would put the LS50s to shame, in my opinion.

Here is someone elses article with a similar opinion comparing the LS50 to some monster JBL speakers:
https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/revie...cordings-r768/
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post #3127 of 3192 Old 08-22-2019, 11:10 AM
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Last night I did a bit of listening to the system in the living room: Roon to Ayre Codex via microRendu, Ayre A73 integrated, LS50s. I was once again impressed with how well the LS50 portrayed the double bass in the various jazz pieces I played. For ducks I tried the last movement of Schubert's 9th symphony. The LS50s acquitted themselves well. Made me wonder about the much more expensive system upstairs.
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post #3128 of 3192 Old 08-23-2019, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neotinto View Post
Any LS50 owners from Bay Area here?

My speaker selection is narrowed down to four: Paradigm 75F/85F floorstander, Ascend tower, Revel Performa F208 - or KEF LS50 (W or passive).

Would love to chat to someone who's owned KEF LS50 for a while?

I'm living in Menlo Park.
I live in Fremont. I've had my LS50's for about a year. The LS50's are the first set of speakers that I've ever spent more than $500 on. So, I can't say much in comparison, as in my limited experience they're in a whole new class than my previous "crap". As my signature shows below, I'm using them with a Kef 8" sub.
Overall, I'm fairly satisfied.

I was wondering - do you know of a good retail KEF dealer in the Bay Area?

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Denon X3400H, KEF LS50. KEF Kube8b, KEF R200c, KEF R50
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post #3129 of 3192 Old 08-23-2019, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by tpro8 View Post
I live in Fremont. I've had my LS50's for about a year. The LS50's are the first set of speakers that I've ever spent more than $500 on. So, I can't say much in comparison, as in my limited experience they're in a whole new class than my previous "crap". As my signature shows below, I'm using them with a Kef 8" sub.

Overall, I'm fairly satisfied.



I was wondering - do you know of a good retail KEF dealer in the Bay Area?


On my last trip to SF a few years back I stopped in Audio Vision. Brief visit, but good experience, so I’d suggest checking them out. Locals may have a different opinion!

http://www.audiovisionsf.com


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post #3130 of 3192 Old 08-25-2019, 09:36 AM
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Hi,

I'm totally new to KEF LS50 speakers so I need little help, please.
Until last week I had Q Acoustics 5.1.2 system (3020i as front. 3090ci as a center, 3020 as back and atmos, and a subwoofer) powered with Denon AVR-X2400H.
Now I replaced the front left, right and center with KEF LS50 all black.
My next purchase will be better AVR cause I think that this one is a little weak for these speakers, but for now, I need to settle with what I have.
I also have Rega turntable for my music, Apple TV 4K as a streamer for movies, PS4 Pro for gaming.
This is how I spend my time: 40% music, 40% movies, 20% gaming

Can you help me with my setup:
1. Should I leave Denon at 8ohms or maybe at 6ohms?
2. Crossover settings for left, right and center?
3. Advice which AVR should I buy to goo good with these speakers?

Thank you in advance
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post #3131 of 3192 Old 08-25-2019, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by mark2305 View Post

Can you help me with my setup:
1. Should I leave Denon at 8ohms or maybe at 6ohms?
2. Crossover settings for left, right and center?
3. Advice which AVR should I buy to goo good with these speakers?

Thank you in advance
1. I don't think it really matters, 8 ohm should be fine, all 6 does I believe is limits the power somewhat to not go into clipping with 4 ohm speakers but as long as you don't listen ridiculously loud it won't be a problem.

2. This is somewhat room dependent but I personally think the LS50s sound best with higher crossover points, I would be in the 100-120Hz range but the setup becomes more important so that you don't localize the subs.

3. Your AVR is probably fine unless it doesn't have some feature that you want to upgrade for. This depends on how loud you listen as well, most of us never put more than 1-2 Watts into our speakers.
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post #3132 of 3192 Old 08-25-2019, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by mark2305 View Post
40% music, 40% movies, 20% gaming
2. Crossover settings for left, right and center?
You should use Audyssey to get starting point for a crossover, distance, off-set etc. If you don't want to use it you can disable it.

The LS50 -3dB point (anechoic) is about 70Hz so you might expect a 60-80Hz value from Audyssey, As you approach 80Hz the low bass starts to be localizable and it's nice to avoid that if possible. You can get test tracks to check bass localization in *your* room. I set all my LS50s to 60Hz, Audyssey set FR/FL to 40 and the rest to 60.

If you like Denon AVRs I'd suggest you wait until the x700 models come out (2020) to get HDMI 2.1 say the 3700.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #3133 of 3192 Old 08-25-2019, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by mark2305 View Post
Hi,

I'm totally new to KEF LS50 speakers so I need little help, please.
Until last week I had Q Acoustics 5.1.2 system (3020i as front. 3090ci as a center, 3020 as back and atmos, and a subwoofer) powered with Denon AVR-X2400H.
Now I replaced the front left, right and center with KEF LS50 all black.
My next purchase will be better AVR cause I think that this one is a little weak for these speakers, but for now, I need to settle with what I have.
I also have Rega turntable for my music, Apple TV 4K as a streamer for movies, PS4 Pro for gaming.
This is how I spend my time: 40% music, 40% movies, 20% gaming

Can you help me with my setup:
1. Should I leave Denon at 8ohms or maybe at 6ohms?
2. Crossover settings for left, right and center?
3. Advice which AVR should I buy to goo good with these speakers?

Thank you in advance
1) Just leave it at 8ohms, it'll be fine.
2) My crossover sweet spot is 90hz. You should experiment between 90-110hz and pick what you like best.
3) LS50's do benefit from a good power amp, but will run and sound good with your X2400H. You'd need pre-outs so you have to upgrade to an X3400/3500 if you want an external amp. You do however get audyssey XT32 and dual sub eq with the X3400/3500.

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post #3134 of 3192 Old 08-25-2019, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by pase22 View Post
1) Just leave it at 8ohms, it'll be fine.
2) My crossover sweet spot is 90hz. You should experiment between 90-110hz and pick what you like best.
3) LS50's do benefit from a good power amp, but will run and sound good with your X2400H. You'd need pre-outs so you have to upgrade to an X3400/3500 if you want an external amp. You do however get audyssey XT32 and dual sub eq with the X3400/3500.
I also have the crossover at 90hz, on my 2-channel NAD M10 running Dirac Live with my LS50's. Seamless integration with my KEF Kube 10b sub.

KEF R500, R200C, R100, R50, SVS SB2000 sub, NAD T758v3 AVR, LG UP875 4K BlueRay, Samsung UN55JU6500F 4K LED TV, KEF M500 headphones, Sony CDP-CE500 CD changer. Office: NAD M10, KEF LS50, KEF Kube 10b, Pro-Ject RPM1 TT w/ Ortofon 2M Red. Guest room: Hafler 300 L-R, KEF Reference Model 100 center, KEF iQ10 surrounds, modded M&K V-90 sub, Bluesound Vault 2.
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post #3135 of 3192 Old 08-25-2019, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by KenM10759 View Post
I also have the crossover at 90hz, on my 2-channel NAD M10 running Dirac Live with my LS50's. Seamless integration with my KEF Kube 10b sub.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pase22 View Post
1) Just leave it at 8ohms, it'll be fine.
2) My crossover sweet spot is 90hz. You should experiment between 90-110hz and pick what you like best.
And Ken: At 90 Hz and above aren't you getting close to being able to localize the sub? What slope are you using?
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post #3136 of 3192 Old 08-25-2019, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by dbphd View Post

And Ken: At 90 Hz and above aren't you getting close to being able to localize the sub? What slope are you using?
No problem with that as long as I'm not too far to the left, where the sub is actually located. I believe the slope is set to 18dB/octave.

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post #3137 of 3192 Old 08-25-2019, 06:14 PM
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And Ken: At 90 Hz and above aren't you getting close to being able to localize the sub? What slope are you using?
I'm not Ken obviously lol, but no, there are a few studies about sub localization that I found recently and posted in this thread: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-au...n-studies.html

Basically, no study I've ever found says you need to crossover your sub below 100Hz. Even more, if your sub is located close to your mains or between them, you can go higher. If you have dual subs, localization is even less of an issue. With a proper setup and preferably dual subs placed in the front, close to your mains you could go up to 120Hz no problem, and that's with a 4th order high pass. If you have a 2nd order like most receivers, I have no doubt you could go higher but there's not really a point in doing that, 120Hz is the max I would ever use.
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post #3138 of 3192 Old 08-26-2019, 06:25 AM
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Thank you all for your inputs!!!
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post #3139 of 3192 Old 09-11-2019, 01:50 PM
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I'm not Ken obviously lol, but no, there are a few studies about sub localization that I found recently and posted in this thread: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-au...n-studies.html

Basically, no study I've ever found says you need to crossover your sub below 100Hz. Even more, if your sub is located close to your mains or between them, you can go higher. If you have dual subs, localization is even less of an issue. With a proper setup and preferably dual subs placed in the front, close to your mains you could go up to 120Hz no problem, and that's with a 4th order high pass. If you have a 2nd order like most receivers, I have no doubt you could go higher but there's not really a point in doing that, 120Hz is the max I would ever use.
It depends a lot on the room acoustics (size and absorption) and placement of speaker and listener. In my small 5 ft listening distance setup, bass is localizable to around 50hz.

LG C8 | Genelec 8341A | KEF LS50 | SVS SB-2000 | miniDSP SHD | NAD 758 V3 | GIK Acoustics
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post #3140 of 3192 Old 09-11-2019, 01:56 PM
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Will the LS50 work great at 5~ feet listening distance for home theater, or should I look at other options? One other speaker I'm comparing to is Klipsch RP-600M.

LG C8 | Genelec 8341A | KEF LS50 | SVS SB-2000 | miniDSP SHD | NAD 758 V3 | GIK Acoustics
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post #3141 of 3192 Old 09-11-2019, 02:02 PM
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It depends a lot on the room acoustics (size and absorption) and placement of speaker and listener. In my small 5 ft listening distance setup, bass is localizable to around 50hz.
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Will the LS50 work great at 5~ feet listening distance for home theater, or should I look at other options? One other speaker I'm comparing to is Klipsch RP-600M.
It's hard to say that without room measurements, do you have a Mic and REW? Bass wavelengths at 100Hz are over 10 feet , so at a listening distance of 5ft I can't see them being localizable unless you have some serious setup issues. As far as the LS50, I'd say at a close distance like that there is no better option, coaxials are very good in nearfield listening. I'm only a few feet further and they sound great for music and movies to me.
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post #3142 of 3192 Old 09-11-2019, 05:48 PM
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Will the LS50 work great at 5~ feet listening distance for home theater, or should I look at other options? One other speaker I'm comparing to is Klipsch RP-600M.
I think the usual concern is being too far not too close given their relative inefficiency. I would be surprised if the Klipsch can do as well.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #3143 of 3192 Old 09-11-2019, 06:13 PM
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Basically, no study I've ever found says you need to crossover your sub below 100Hz.
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Bass wavelengths at 100Hz are over 10 feet , so at a listening distance of 5ft I can't see them being localizable unless you have some serious setup issues.
There seem to be quite a few assumptions here. A better approach would optimize your layout as best you can and then check localization. Audiocheck has Left/Right test files that sweep down that you test with your sub off. When you start the sweep the sound is obviously coming from the left or right. As it sweeps down it suddenly becomes non-localizable (apparently most people "localize" it to the center because psych.). You can experiment with the general idea if you can generate your own sweeps.

In my small living room I can localize down to ~70 Hz.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #3144 of 3192 Old 09-11-2019, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
There seem to be quite a few assumptions here. A better approach would optimize your layout as best you can and then check localization. Audiocheck has Left/Right test files that sweep down that you test with your sub off. When you start the sweep the sound is obviously coming from the left or right. As it sweeps down it suddenly becomes non-localizable (apparently most people "localize" it to the center because psych.). You can experiment with the general idea if you can generate your own sweeps.

In my small living room I can localize down to ~70 Hz.
No assumptions that I can see, 100Hz wavelength is 11.25 ft so that was accurate. 4 scientifically controlled studies showed that the crossover could be anywhere between 100-150Hz without localization. If you can really localize 70Hz, it would be better to show spatially averaged measurements around your listening area of your Mains(separate measurements) and your subs and then your mains + subs to see what is going on. If your high and low pass rolloff is consistent, there shouldn't be any localization.
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post #3145 of 3192 Old 09-11-2019, 06:50 PM
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No assumptions that I can see ...
  1. You can't possibly be wrong.
  2. Faced with empirical evidence of your error then something is wrong with me or my set-up.
  3. The studies you found are the only ones that are relevant/correct.
Here's the thing -- none of what you say matters when I can localize bass above ~70 Hz (in my room) and I can't localize bass (in my room) with my set-up (sub not colocated with center channel) with a cross-over of 60 Hz.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #3146 of 3192 Old 09-11-2019, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
  1. You can't possibly be wrong.
  2. Faced with empirical evidence of your error then something is wrong with me or my set-up.
  3. The studies you found are the only ones that are relevant/correct.
Here's the thing -- none of what you say matters when I can localize bass above ~70 Hz (in my room) and I can't localize bass (in my room) with my set-up (sub not colocated with center channel) with a cross-over of 60 Hz.
My point wasn't to question what frequency you can localize your bass, everyone's setup is different, that's why it's pointless to tell anyone what frequency 1 person thinks he/she can localize. If you show measurements, it at least shows what's going on in your listening space, many people boost their subs 5 decibels or more relative to their mains, which will affect their ability to localize their subs. Also, many people have different high and low pass slopes in their crossovers which will obviously affect their ability to localize bass.
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post #3147 of 3192 Old 09-11-2019, 10:05 PM
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It's hard to say that without room measurements, do you have a Mic and REW? Bass wavelengths at 100Hz are over 10 feet , so at a listening distance of 5ft I can't see them being localizable unless you have some serious setup issues. As far as the LS50, I'd say at a close distance like that there is no better option, coaxials are very good in nearfield listening. I'm only a few feet further and they sound great for music and movies to me.
Measurements: https://i.imgur.com/SNErw6o.png

Placement: https://i.imgur.com/0X6Uy08.jpg

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post #3148 of 3192 Old 09-12-2019, 06:23 AM
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Left/Right test files that sweep down that you test with your sub off.
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My point wasn't to question what frequency you can localize your bass, everyone's setup is different, that's why it's pointless to tell anyone what frequency 1 person thinks he/she can localize. ...Also, many people have different high and low pass slopes in their crossovers which will obviously affect their ability to localize bass.
I was pointing out my results as an example. That's no more pointless than someone providing a rule of thumb about where to set a crossover with no context. In any case this test is done with the sub off (and crossover set below any expected value). If your front speakers are inaudible at 120 Hz that might be an issue but that's not the case for the LS50.

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post #3149 of 3192 Old 09-12-2019, 07:14 AM
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Those are about ideal as far as the integration of the mains and subs, I noticed it's at 80Hz in that pic, you're saying you can localize that? If you're sure there is nothing vibrating or making noise from the bass you could go lower than 80. As far as the LS50, they are very good in a nearfield situation but your speakers seem to measure very well also, is there something you don't like about the current setup?

One thing I wanted to add about the LS50, it starts rolling off a bit under 120 in my room, it could be different in yours but that could make lower crossover frequencies a challenge if you want to go below 80Hz.

Last edited by aarons915; 09-12-2019 at 10:14 AM.
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post #3150 of 3192 Old 09-12-2019, 09:52 AM
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I haven't tried it with my LS50s, but a step in setting up the subs with a Velodyne SMS-1 bass manager is to mute the subs so only the in-room acoustic output of the speakers is displayed in the 15-200 Hz sweeps. The in-my-room response of the KEF Ref 1s is pretty flat to just below 30 Hz after which it rolls off steeply. I suspect this accounts for their quite satisfying portrayal of jazz bass and just enough a taste of pipe organ pedal notes to be aware one was played. My perception is that the LS50s, although not quite as capable as the Ref 1s for LF, do a very good job of portraying jazz, including tracking the bass, so it's the in-room response in your listening room that counts, not published response.

Adding the Velodyne HGS-10 and HGS-15 subs extends the in-room response in my room to below 20 Hz with a shallow roll-off to 15 Hz. I'll be adding another HGS-10 and HGS-15 today I just picked up from repair, so the sub array will be two HGS-10s and two HGS-15s controlled by daisy-chained SMS-1s. I use four LS50s for side and rear surround.

I'm using a pair of racing red LS50s without subs for stereo in our living room.
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