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post #3151 of 3192 Old 09-12-2019, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by aarons915 View Post
Those are about ideal as far as the integration of the mains and subs, I noticed it's at 80Hz in that pic, you're saying you can localize that? If you're sure there is nothing vibrating or making noise from the bass you could go lower than 80. As far as the LS50, they are very good in a nearfield situation but your speakers seem to measure very well also, is there something you don't like about the current setup?

One thing I wanted to add about the LS50, it starts rolling off a bit under 120 in my room, it could be different in yours but that could make lower crossover frequencies a challenge if you want to go below 80Hz.
I don't have any problem with my current speaker setup, just wanted to keep my music (quality) and home theater (quantity) setups separated.

Wow that rolloff is much higher than I expected. The room is small and I'll be placing all the speakers close to walls, so hopefully that will help extend the bass response.

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post #3152 of 3192 Old 09-12-2019, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by simplyderp View Post
I don't have any problem with my current speaker setup, just wanted separate to keep my music (quality) and home theater (quantity) setups separated.

Wow that rolloff is much higher than I expected. The room is small and I'll be placing all the speakers close to walls, so hopefully that will help extend the bass response.
Your room seems a lot better in the bass than mine so I wouldn't worry about it, it's partly why I have to cross over a bit higher than normal because of a few dips. Your speakers already seem good but it can't hurt to try out a new pair.
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post #3153 of 3192 Old 09-12-2019, 03:02 PM
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I've found that the issue with my LS50s and a single sub isn't so much about localisation, but rather that the LS50s run out of puff below 150hz.

I can EQ the bass to get a similar extension to the LS50 Wireless, but reckon a pair of small subs crossed at 150Hz is ideal.

With a seperate big sub for the really low stuff.
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post #3154 of 3192 Old 09-12-2019, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Dodds View Post
I've found that the issue with my LS50s and a single sub isn't so much about localisation, but rather that the LS50s run out of puff below 150hz.

I can EQ the bass to get a similar extension to the LS50 Wireless, but reckon a pair of small subs crossed at 150Hz is ideal.

With a seperate big sub for the really low stuff.
They actually measure with a bass hump around 100Hz though, I think many of us use them in smaller rooms and they have a lot of SBIR cancellation, I personally have a large dip from about 120-150Hz because of it. They seem to follow their natural response very well in Simplyderp's room.
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post #3155 of 3192 Old 09-12-2019, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by aarons915 View Post
They actually measure with a bass hump around 100Hz though, I think many of us use them in smaller rooms and they have a lot of SBIR cancellation, I personally have a large dip from about 120-150Hz because of it. They seem to follow their natural response very well in Simplyderp's room.
That's not an LS50 lol

But I will be receiving a pair soon to test

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post #3156 of 3192 Old 09-12-2019, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by simplyderp View Post
That's not an LS50 lol

But I will be receiving a pair soon to test
Sorry I saw you had the Genelecs, I meant to say that they seem to follow the ideal room curve without any serious room modes.
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post #3157 of 3192 Old 09-12-2019, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by aarons915 View Post
Sorry I saw you had the Genelecs
You should look at the room picture.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #3158 of 3192 Old 09-12-2019, 04:27 PM
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You should look at the room picture.
I did but I see now they aren't the Genelecs in his Sig. The small room with treatments is probably why his measurements look so good, I'll be curious to see how the LS50 measure in that space.
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post #3159 of 3192 Old 09-12-2019, 04:45 PM
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Hello guys, i need help deciding if the KEF LS50 would work great for my setup.

i currently own w 4 yamaha ns333 bookshelfs / yamaha ns c-444 as centre / yamaha ns-s700 sub for a 5.1 setup.

also i do have these 2 AMPS http://www.beta3pro.com/item/57 and http://www.beta3pro.com/item/61 with a Yamaha Avantage RX2050 AV reciever.

my room is 15feet x 11.5feet , and listening position will be 13 feet away from the front speakers , would the KEF LS50 be a big upgrade for me ?

i keep hearing great things about them , and i never really tested other speakers than mine so cant really tell what i m missing, i do have a minidsp 88BM with dirac live for calibration. and i m starting to treat the room with bass traps and some acoustic foam panels.

i m planning to have 3 of them as front L R and C . ( How do i buy 3 as i always see them in pair )

any help would be greatly appreciated.

i ll be shipping them overseas so cannot try them before buying .

thank you a lot .

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post #3160 of 3192 Old 09-12-2019, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by tnaik4 View Post
  1. i need help deciding if the KEF LS50 would work great for my setup.
  2. would the KEF LS50 be a big upgrade for me ?
  3. i m starting to treat the room with bass traps and some acoustic foam panels.
  4. i m planning to have 3 of them as front L R and C . ( How do i buy 3 as i always see them in pair )
  5. i ll be shipping them overseas so cannot try them before buying .
  1. It's hard to know. It depends on what you mean by "great".
  2. Absolutely
  3. The people that sell treatments love to sell treatments.
  4. KEF sells a single speaker (at a slight premium). The [LS50 Single Center Speaker].
  5. Make sure you can return them.

I might type 2K for 1080p.
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post #3161 of 3192 Old 09-12-2019, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aarons915 View Post
They actually measure with a bass hump around 100Hz though, I think many of us use them in smaller rooms and they have a lot of SBIR cancellation, I personally have a large dip from about 120-150Hz because of it. They seem to follow their natural response very well in Simplyderp's room.
Yes, they have hump to disguise the fact they don't really extend happily to the stated figure.

If you check the Soundstage measurements, even with the bump they are rolling off at just below 150hz. This makes blending with a sub at 80hz tricky.

https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/in...nts&Itemid=153

I actually EQ mine to be flat down to 40Hz much like the Wireless version, then I crossover at 80hz.

I'd rather use two subs and cross at 150Hz though.
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post #3162 of 3192 Old 09-12-2019, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Dodds View Post
Yes, they have hump to disguise the fact they don't really extend happily to the stated figure.

If you check the Soundstage measurements, even with the bump they are rolling off at just below 150hz. This makes blending with a sub at 80hz tricky.
True but the NRC chamber doesn't take into account the port output so it's not quite that bad but I agree they are a bit trickier than other speakers to blend with subs.

I was curious since I saw you had the R3 as well, I'm guessing you've EQ'd them too? What are you thoughts on the 2 after both are EQ'd to be more neutral?
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post #3163 of 3192 Old 09-13-2019, 02:55 AM
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Originally Posted by aarons915 View Post
True but the NRC chamber doesn't take into account the port output so it's not quite that bad but I agree they are a bit trickier than other speakers to blend with subs.

I was curious since I saw you had the R3 as well, I'm guessing you've EQ'd them too? What are you thoughts on the 2 after both are EQ'd to be more neutral?
This is both EQed with ARC. It was done up to 2K.

Without the EQ, the R3 has a noticeable dip around 1K.

The LS50 has the famous peak at 2K.

Sonically they are very similar. The LS50 is a bit more lively, the R3 a bit more refined.

The R3 (with EQ) can be listened to without a sub.

The LS50 really can't unless you listen at low levels. The EQ just makes it easier to cross to one properly.

If you didn't have sub, or only had one sub, I would pick the R3.

If you had two subs, I would probably go for the LS50.
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post #3164 of 3192 Old 09-13-2019, 02:56 AM
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Originally Posted by aarons915 View Post
True but the NRC chamber doesn't take into account the port output so it's not quite that bad but I agree they are a bit trickier than other speakers to blend with subs.

I was curious since I saw you had the R3 as well, I'm guessing you've EQ'd them too? What are you thoughts on the 2 after both are EQ'd to be more neutral?
This is both EQed with ARC. It was done up to 2K.

Without the EQ, the R3 has a noticeable dip around 1K.

The LS50 has the famous peak at 2K.

Sonically they are very similar. The LS50 is a bit more lively, the R3 a bit more refined.

The R3 (with EQ) can be listened to without a sub.

The LS50 really can't unless you listen at low levels. The EQ just makes it easier to cross to one properly.

If you didn't have sub, or only had one sub, I would pick the R3.

If you had two subs, I would probably go for the LS50.
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post #3165 of 3192 Old 09-13-2019, 02:59 AM
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Assuming US, one can pick up a pair of LS50's and two subs for the same cost as a pair of R3's.

I'd pick that.

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post #3166 of 3192 Old 09-13-2019, 05:20 AM
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Assuming US, one can pick up a pair of LS50's and two subs for the same cost as a pair of R3's.

I'd pick that.
Indeed. The 'subs' don't even need to be especially massive.

A pair of sealed 8 or even 6 inch subs next to the LS50s work very well, with a bigger one elsewhere for the really deep stuff.
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post #3167 of 3192 Old 09-13-2019, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve Dodds View Post
This is both EQed with ARC. It was done up to 2K.

Without the EQ, the R3 has a noticeable dip around 1K.

The LS50 has the famous peak at 2K.

Sonically they are very similar. The LS50 is a bit more lively, the R3 a bit more refined.

The R3 (with EQ) can be listened to without a sub.

The LS50 really can't unless you listen at low levels. The EQ just makes it easier to cross to one properly.

If you didn't have sub, or only had one sub, I would pick the R3.

If you had two subs, I would probably go for the LS50.
Thanks these are my thoughts as well. Do you happen to notice a difference in the vocals being split between the woofer and midwoofer on the R3? I don't know why but after being used to the point-source nature of the LS50's and listening to the new R series it sounds odd to me.
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post #3168 of 3192 Old 09-17-2019, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Dodds View Post
Indeed. The 'subs' don't even need to be especially massive.

A pair of sealed 8 or even 6 inch subs next to the LS50s work very well, with a bigger one elsewhere for the really deep stuff.
I have the LS50's in my normal, to small living room and have a Definitive Technology Supercube 4000 subwoofer. This, to me, is the sweetest stereo setup I've ever had. So glad to have the remote for the DefTech sub, due to variations in recordings and their dynamic output.

Love that little DefTech Supercube!

Tom
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post #3169 of 3192 Old 09-24-2019, 04:59 AM
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LS50 with Classe Sigma AMP2

Hi all,

Please help me decide what should I buy for my setup.
I have 5.1.2 setup with 3 KEF LS50 (left, right, center) other speakers are Q Acoustics 3020i they are all connected on Denon AVR-3500H.
I have a chance to buy Classe Sigma AMP2 for 800€ which I think is really cheap to power my fronts when I'm listening to music.
Would that be a good match for LS50 or?

Thanks for your help
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post #3170 of 3192 Old 09-24-2019, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve Dodds View Post
Indeed. The 'subs' don't even need to be especially massive.

A pair of sealed 8 or even 6 inch subs next to the LS50s work very well, with a bigger one elsewhere for the really deep stuff.
I thought about using the 8" Kef sub as a midbass addition to LS50s, and have recently been looking at the Rythmik F8/FM8. 2 8" sealed drivers, rated to handle 50-250. It can also be set to go lower, if you don't have a deeper sub along with it. I couldn't find many other midbass specialty options out there, and these can play higher than the Kef subs.

I was thinking about attaching one (maybe 2) of these to the sub output of the LS50W, crossed as high as it can, to see if it will act like a 3 way. Should really fill out that midbass section for music. Then a bigger, 12" or 15" can be added to a processor for HT rumble. I'm out of the US right now, and will try this in Q1 2020 when I'm back. If you do something similar, I'd love to hear how it goes.
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post #3171 of 3192 Old 09-24-2019, 01:06 PM
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I used a pair of Lyngdorf BW-2 boundary subs to do something similar.

Sonically they worked very well. I had them crossed over at 150Hz, but unlike most subs they can play happily up to 800hz or so.

Mine went down to 25Hz in room without adding EQ (although I suspect they have some built-in). They are also very small and take up little space.

Alas, it was still too much space for my darling wife.

They are also excellent value (for Lyngdorf) at around $1.5K the pair.

I used to own a pair of Rythmik F12s which went louder and lower, but which would be overkill for the kind of bass reinforcement we're talking about.

I think a pair of KEF T2s would be a good choice too. They are sealed, thin so you can stick them directly behind the LS50s, play up to 250Hz and you can get new ones $500 on eBay.

If you really want to experiment, rather than the Rythmik f8s, a pair of their servo open baffles would be interesting.

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post #3172 of 3192 Old 10-12-2019, 10:56 PM
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Best amps for greatest synergy with LS50? Best Subwoofers? Interested in VALUE

Guys, I have currently KEF LS50 with NAD C268 class-D 80wpc amp supporting 4 ohm loads. Has with balanced inputs, too. I think it sounds pretty good but wondering if I could bring out even more from the LS50s with better amplification? MSRP on the NAD C268 was like $899, but I got mine for $599. Would I get more from a Crown amp that has like 450w? Those cost between $250-$400. Or would a class AB amp with a big toroidal transformer be best? How about getting a modern AV receiver with DSP to take into account room acoustics.. Something like a Yamaha mid-range receiver with pre-outs?

I don't want to spend like $2K on an amp. The LS50s cost me $1000.

Also, what's a perfect match subwoofer for the LS50?
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post #3173 of 3192 Old 10-13-2019, 03:17 AM
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Guys, I have currently KEF LS50 with NAD C268 class-D 80wpc amp supporting 4 ohm loads. Has with balanced inputs, too. I think it sounds pretty good but wondering if I could bring out even more from the LS50s with better amplification? MSRP on the NAD C268 was like $899, but I got mine for $599. Would I get more from a Crown amp that has like 450w? Those cost between $250-$400. Or would a class AB amp with a big toroidal transformer be best? How about getting a modern AV receiver with DSP to take into account room acoustics.. Something like a Yamaha mid-range receiver with pre-outs?

I don't want to spend like $2K on an amp. The LS50s cost me $1000.

Also, what's a perfect match subwoofer for the LS50?
Your amp is a good one, I don't think you'd get anything more out of the Crown amps. What is your source feeding the C268? Maybe that's where to improve. The C658 is the perfect mate to that amp, has twin subwoofer outputs, and Dirac Live!

How big is your room? I have my LS50's in my 10'x12' office and paired them with a KEF Kube 10b. It sounds beautiful together, and my NAD Masters M10 does a great job of integrating them.

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post #3174 of 3192 Old 10-13-2019, 09:13 AM
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Your amp is a good one, I don't think you'd get anything more out of the Crown amps. What is your source feeding the C268? Maybe that's where to improve. The C658 is the perfect mate to that amp, has twin subwoofer outputs, and Dirac Live!

How big is your room? I have my LS50's in my 10'x12' office and paired them with a KEF Kube 10b. It sounds beautiful together, and my NAD Masters M10 does a great job of integrating them.
My setup is:
XiangSheng (Chi-Fi) Dual Burr Brown DAC -> balanced out to NAD C268 Class-D 80w amp -> KEF LS50 speakers using 12 gauge speaker wire. The external DAC is connected to the source (My PC) via USB. I have not yet set up bit perfect playback and I'm getting content from YouTube just as a test. I will be looking to source high quality audio files of the music I like and set up bit perfect playback so that the results will be optimal.

My room is about 11'x12'. 1 wall has a large window, 2nd wall has 2 small windows at each end, 3rd wall is solid but right next to the door, 4th wall has a walk way to the attached bathroom. I have to put the LS50 on an IKEA shelving system, no space to put on stands 2-3' away from rear wall.

I will look into KEF Kube 10b. The C658 looks nice, and has balanced outputs. Is a bit expensive for me though, at $1650. I was also considering something like an iPad Pro or Mac Mini.

My LS50 cost me $1000 new. NAD C268 amp cost me $599 new. The dual Burr Brown DAC cost $250. So, that comes out to under $1900. Looks like that C658 has a DAC included, so if I were to sell off my dual Burr Brown DAC, that could help lower the cost of the C658 though.
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post #3175 of 3192 Old 10-13-2019, 11:30 AM
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I bought a pair of NAD C268s to replace Parasound A23s for driving side and rear LS50 surrounds -- energy efficiency. I initially had them connected to a Bryston SP3 processor, and for some reason front LR was sent to the C268s when I switched to cable input. What I learned from that screwup was that the LS50s driven by the C268 had a particularly open and clear sound, very impressive. The C268s are now connected to the surround outputs of my Oppo 205 where they perform the function for which I intended them admirably.
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post #3176 of 3192 Old 10-13-2019, 11:38 AM
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The C658 looks nice, and has balanced outputs. Is a bit expensive for me though, at $1650.
If you Google NAD C658 you will find several refurbished or open box units listed for around $1200.
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post #3177 of 3192 Old 10-13-2019, 02:22 PM
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I bought a pair of NAD C268s to replace Parasound A23s for driving side and rear LS50 surrounds -- energy efficiency. I initially had them connected to a Bryston SP3 processor, and for some reason front LR was sent to the C268s when I switched to cable input. What I learned from that screwup was that the LS50s driven by the C268 had a particularly open and clear sound, very impressive. The C268s are now connected to the surround outputs of my Oppo 205 where they perform the function for which I intended them admirably.
What are you using for the front LR instead of the C268? And what makes them better than the C268? You mentioned C268 had an open and clear sound that was very impressive, which is good to know since it alleviates some doubt that I made a good choice. But now I'm wondering if I could have made a better choice even.
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post #3178 of 3192 Old 10-13-2019, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by dbphd View Post
If you Google NAD C658 you will find several refurbished or open box units listed for around $1200.
Thanks, that's a good idea! But what about C368? It seems to be the partner unit for my C268 amp? C658 seems to be a higher end model, maybe intended more for Master series amps? It looks like the C368 has an amp but C658 doesn't?
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post #3179 of 3192 Old 10-13-2019, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by corinthos View Post
I have not yet set up bit perfect playback and I'm getting content from YouTube just as a test. I will be looking to source high quality audio files of the music I like and set up bit perfect playback so that the results will be optimal.
I wouldn't be too worried about bit perfect as long as the samplerate is the same as the source files but I definitely wouldn't be using youtube. Youtube is very ordinary audio quality.

The lowest quality I listen to is 320k MP3, with FLAC much preferred. From the PC I use foobar2000 and I set it to the ASIO output of my soundcard (Focusrite 6i6) so it automatically switches the samplerate to whatever the file is. Alternately I use HDMI to my Denon AVR.

Youtube sounds muffled and lacks dynamics and clarity to me. Youtube definitely wouldn't bring out the best in LS50s.

Also just my opinion but I can't hear a difference in quality between good quality DACs or Amplifiers (except valve amps). I haven't A/B'd though. I can hear a big difference in headphone amps though.

Personally I would go with an AVR with Audyssey (at least XT32) or Dirac and go via HDMI to that. Or if you're always using a PC as source, you can even do room correction using free software that runs on the PC (if you buy a UMIK-1) - REW, equaliser APO and Rephase.

Audyssey XT32 and Dynamic EQ has been the biggest difference in sound quality that I've experienced (a lot of that may be due to my subpar room layout though, with a better room it may not make as much difference). I've bought a UMIK-1 to measure the room but have only just started experimenting with that.

I would look into room correction or room treatment before I spent money to get that 0.01% increase in quality from a different amplifier.

Living Room: Kef Q900/Q600c/Q100, SVS SB2000, Denon AVR-X3500H.
PC Setup: Infinity R152, Sunfire XTEQ8, DIY 3e-Audio TPA3255 amp.
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post #3180 of 3192 Old 10-13-2019, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by corinthos View Post
Thanks, that's a good idea! But what about C368? It seems to be the partner unit for my C268 amp? C658 seems to be a higher end model, maybe intended more for Master series amps? It looks like the C368 has an amp but C658 doesn't?
The C368 is an integrated amp with the same power as the C268 power amp. If you wanted to make an upward move in power, plus get BluOS streaming and subwoofer output, look at the C388 with BluOS module.

https://www.safeandsoundhq.com/colle...ry-refurbished

The C658 pre-amp/DAC/streamer is unusual in having balanced outputs in a non-Masters unit. There is no direct equivalent within the Masters series, but there is the M12 pre-amp and M50.2 digital player. I have the M10, which is an all-in-one box that I use with my LS50's.

KEF R500, R200C, R100, R50, SVS SB2000 sub, NAD T758v3 AVR, LG UP875 4K BlueRay, Samsung UN55JU6500F 4K LED TV, KEF M500 headphones, Sony CDP-CE500 CD changer. Office: NAD M10, KEF LS50, KEF Kube 10b, Pro-Ject RPM1 TT w/ Ortofon 2M Red. Guest room: Hafler 300 L-R, KEF Reference Model 100 center, KEF iQ10 surrounds, modded M&K V-90 sub, Bluesound Vault 2.

Last edited by KenM10759; 10-13-2019 at 04:35 PM.
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