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post #2971 of 4604 Old 06-04-2017, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
lol no.
Just from a physical size perspective, wouldn't the M2 just be too big with the dimensions he listed? I'd personally just do 708p all around and call it a happy day, especially with Seaton Submersives in the mix.

If I hadn't been so invested in PSB Imagine gear, and the 708p were available for local demo, I'd have probably went that route myself in my 20x15 room. But that would have pulled me into waiting for the SDP-75 upgrades for proper tunings without needing the special amps, so it would have been tough.
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post #2972 of 4604 Old 06-04-2017, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
Just from a physical size perspective, wouldn't the M2 just be too big with the dimensions he listed? I'd personally just do 708p all around and call it a happy day, especially with Seaton Submersives in the mix.

If I hadn't been so invested in PSB Imagine gear, and the 708p were available for local demo, I'd have probably went that route myself in my 20x15 room. But that would have pulled me into waiting for the SDP-75 upgrades for proper tunings without needing the special amps, so it would have been tough.
If he was pushing the speakers up against the side walls, the center point of the M2 would be 5" over compared to the 708. The 708 does not approach the performance of the M2.
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post #2973 of 4604 Old 06-05-2017, 11:51 AM
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Can you "safely" swap out the fans in the iTech and DCi amps for quieter ones? I know it is possible in most pro amps but is it possible with these ones?
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post #2974 of 4604 Old 06-05-2017, 11:57 AM
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Can you "safely" swap out the fans in the iTech and DCi amps for quieter ones? I know it is possible in most pro amps but is it possible with these ones?
Put them outside the room.
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post #2975 of 4604 Old 06-05-2017, 12:00 PM
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Put them outside the room.
I could but it will take some work/drilling and making holes in concrete walls to route the cables. If I can swap out the fans for quieter ones, it will make things quite a bit easier for me.

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post #2976 of 4604 Old 06-05-2017, 12:34 PM
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I could but it will take some work/drilling and making holes in concrete walls to route the cables. If I can swap out the fans for quieter ones, it will make things quite a bit easier for me.
Pretty sure that would void the warranty. I'll see what I can find out.
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post #2977 of 4604 Old 06-05-2017, 01:14 PM
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Pretty sure that would void the warranty. I'll see what I can find out.
Thanks.
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post #2978 of 4604 Old 06-05-2017, 01:37 PM
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Nobody has did it because they're so expensive, and it would definitely void the warranty. Honestly, they spin so much because they put off so much heat. Even at idle.

I cannot keep the door closed on my large closet they're in otherwise it gets to be well over 120 degrees inside there and quickly. Then they spin even higher because they're recirculating a higher T(0). They need to be left alone. There's a reason Crown never released the update to run the lower mass spec on these amps.

You'll likely have to deal with the fan noise, find another room, or use different amps with the BLU separate units to give you the tuning files.
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post #2979 of 4604 Old 06-05-2017, 02:52 PM
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You can use whatever amp/dsp you want. The info has all been published, so recreating the curves in $eq_of_choice is trivial at this point. Even if you use one of their processors, there are still much better amps available.
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post #2980 of 4604 Old 06-05-2017, 10:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain View Post
Can you "safely" swap out the fans in the iTech and DCi amps for quieter ones? I know it is possible in most pro amps but is it possible with these ones?
Can't speak for the DCi's, but I would not advice to swap the iTech fans. Than fans provide feedback to the fan controllers which are an integrated part of the main circuit board making it more complicated than the various simple fan mods you see on forums.

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post #2981 of 4604 Old 06-06-2017, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by JonasHansen View Post
Can't speak for the DCi's, but I would not advice to swap the iTech fans. Than fans provide feedback to the fan controllers which are an integrated part of the main circuit board making it more complicated than the various simple fan mods you see on forums.
Thanks.

Looking at your signature, you have the M2 with the SUB18. How do you like the SUB18? Also, what are you using for surround speakers?
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post #2982 of 4604 Old 06-06-2017, 06:40 PM
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1. Any issues with having only the center M2 behind a woven AT screen while having the front left and right M2s out in the open? I am assuming no as I've seen quite a few people do this but will there be any issues with sound "consistency"?

2. Any issues with having the front left and right M2s in the corners of the room (but toed-in towards the main listening position)?
Good answers on this posted already, but one additional thing bears mentioning:

Having the speakers on either side of the screen means that sounds that are supposed to emanate from the left and right sides of the screen will emanate from outside the left and right of the screen. Sometimes I find this distracting. The sound does not precisely follow picture, if a sound event is specifically placed on screen.

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post #2983 of 4604 Old 06-06-2017, 06:48 PM
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My 2 cents worth, agree with all of the above. You do want a center channel. Down mixing to stereo and phantom imaging is a far cry from well done discrete L/C/R. Big difference in how you hear what's in the mix and how it was mixed.

Sitting 8 feet back from your setup with 3 M2's spaced only 15" apart will give poor imaging and probably phasing issues at your listening position.. Kind of a waste of great speakers, maybe the wrong speakers for your room.

You need to sit at the apex of an equilateral triangle to get good stereo phantom imaging for stereo only music playback (don't know if that is a concern), but it also makes for much better audio for video.

You could use smaller/narrower profile speakers (JBL LSR 708, Revel F208, Studio2 or Salon2 depending on budget) and gain some in speaker spacing. The M2 (and LSR 7 series) horn/waveguide has very wide dispersion, not great for your situation. Revel tweeters/waveguides might work better for your room.

Another question is, how are you handling low end, i.e. what about subs, how many, placement etc? If your room is small or has bad dimensions, you will have issues getting smooth bass response.

Sounds like you are trying to do much in a small room. Best A/V experience is to design the system for the room and sit in the right place based on your room dimensions.
Dead on!

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post #2984 of 4604 Old 06-06-2017, 07:05 PM
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OK, now have three M2s in the front of my theater, LCR, which replaced my 708s (which will be moving to side and rear surround duties). After living with the M2s for about a week, here are my thoughts on the M2s vs. the 708s. Room is 15.5' wide by 22' deep, FYI.

The M2s sound more open and spacious than the 708s. They also sound "bigger" (big surprise there). They also have less of the "hard edge" on the treble vs. the 708s. Still not as "silky" as the Revels, going from memory, but there will be more listening tests coming up (especially since my new Salon2s are now sitting out in the garage, yay!).

Downside: the M2s look kinda ridiculously big in my theater, like three big coffins. They make my 11 ft. wide Scope screen look small. Seriously, lol.

Center M2 is laying on its side - no acoustically transparent screen for me! Amazed how the "ventriloquist effect" keeps the dialogue centered on the screen (probably also thanks to the super wide dispersion of the waveguide). Ran the horizontal placement by Toole and Sprinkle - both said not perfect but perfectly acceptable, and way better than no center (and better than using a 708).

So thrilled with the sound, not thrilled with the aesthetics. I could go back to the 708s, which - like some have mentioned - may be a better match to the size of my room. Difference in sound is not huge, but appreciable. I do definitely prefer the M2s.

More to come as I play with them some more, and bring in the Salon2s later this week. I will post most comments in the Synthesis thread, though.

One quick note that kind of sums up the difference in sound between the 708 and M2. During the Griffith Park Planetarium scene in "LaLa Land," there is a quiet sequence with solo harp on the soundtrack, soon joined by flute (the harp is essentially playing the "Ave Maria" chords). With the M2s, there is more of a sense of acoustic space around the harp and flute, where on the 708s the sound was - how shall I say it - more compact and a bit more focused. However, that was at the expense of spaciousness and a convincing sense of "air" around the instruments.
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post #2985 of 4604 Old 06-06-2017, 07:12 PM
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Maybe you should borrow an AT screen, or get one to test it out. I know you are against them but maybe trying one might put things into more perspective and let you test the different center placement.

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post #2986 of 4604 Old 06-06-2017, 07:29 PM
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Maybe you should borrow an AT screen, or get one to test it out. I know you are against them but maybe trying one might put things into more perspective and let you test the different center placement.
Thanks Josh!

We are basically a "projection only" dealer - we only hang a flat panel under duress I also spent 5 years as head of sales and marketing for Panamorph, so I've seen just about every projector / screen combo there is. We also have samples of just about every screen material on the market on hand here at my house / showroom.

Here are the problems:

The only acoustically transparent screens I really like are the Stewart StudioTek Microperfs. I would definitely consider one IF I was not sitting 12 ft. from the screen, which is right at the threshold where the perfs are visible. If I needed to build out a wall to accommodate the M2s, I would be sitting even closer. I could move the seating back, but that puts the seats too close to the back row.

Other considerations:

We have on demo the JVC RS4500, which is a true 4K laser design and - IMO - the best projector on the market. If I put in an acoustically transparent screen, I am showing the RS4500 at a disadvantage. Woven screens definitely diffuse the image, destroying the incredible clarity of the 4500. The Microperf is ruled out based on what I stated above.

Lastly, with HDR in projection it is all about maximizing brightness on screen. All the woven materials are negative gain (despite claims to the contrary), and I would be sacrificing brightness as well as clarity.

So practical considerations get in the way. Even though this is my home, it's also our showroom. I have to be able to present every component at its best. My concern at this point is that the M2s are so large it may be a turn off for some...

After reading what I wrote above, I went back and edited my post because it seemed to me I was somewhat down on the M2s. Don't get me wrong - I LOVE THEM - I'm just concerned about the aesthetic issues
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post #2987 of 4604 Old 06-06-2017, 07:45 PM
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i am familar with quite a few home operated businesses in ny state for audio/video...its definitely a challenge as a consumer, cant imagine as owner...lots of trust was needed when I purchased back then in new york, but i got the support and was never disappointed. appreciate your contributions john, wish focal had a guy like you...maybe you should adopt focal

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post #2988 of 4604 Old 06-06-2017, 07:46 PM
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Can't wait to hear the impressions of the M2 to the Salon2.
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post #2989 of 4604 Old 06-07-2017, 03:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
OK, now have three M2s in the front of my theater, LCR, which replaced my 708s (which will be moving to side and rear surround duties). After living with the M2s for about a week, here are my thoughts on the M2s vs. the 708s. Room is 15.5' wide by 22' deep, FYI.

The M2s sound more open and spacious than the 708s. They also sound "bigger" (big surprise there). They also have less of the "hard edge" on the treble vs. the 708s. Still not as "silky" as the Revels, going from memory, but there will be more listening tests coming up (especially since my new Salon2s are now sitting out in the garage, yay!).

Downside: the M2s look kinda ridiculously big in my theater, like three big coffins. They make my 11 ft. wide Scope screen look small. Seriously, lol.

Center M2 is laying on its side - no acoustically transparent screen for me! Amazed how the "ventriloquist effect" keeps the dialogue centered on the screen (probably also thanks to the super wide dispersion of the waveguide). Ran the horizontal placement by Toole and Sprinkle - both said not perfect but perfectly acceptable, and way better than no center (and better than using a 708).

So thrilled with the sound, not thrilled with the aesthetics. I could go back to the 708s, which - like some have mentioned - may be a better match to the size of my room. Difference in sound is not huge, but appreciable. I do definitely prefer the M2s.

More to come as I play with them some more, and bring in the Salon2s later this week. I will post most comments in the Synthesis thread, though.

One quick note that kind of sums up the difference in sound between the 708 and M2. During the Griffith Park Planetarium scene in "LaLa Land," there is a quiet sequence with solo harp on the soundtrack, soon joined by flute (the harp is essentially playing the "Ave Maria" chords). With the M2s, there is more of a sense of acoustic space around the harp and flute, where on the 708s the sound was - how shall I say it - more compact and a bit more focused. However, that was at the expense of spaciousness and a convincing sense of "air" around the instruments.
As someone that has listened to the 708i's for some time prior to the M2's, I agree with your comparisons between the 2, especially that last part with their being a "sense of air" around the instruments and the 708's sounding a bit more focused. I also agree that the M2's are absolutely humongous lol. Had to kind of shoehorn them into my theater, but after playing with treatments, placement (as best I can) and ARC, I got them to sound fantastic in my acoustic atrocity box theater. I'm house hunting right now so hopefully soon I'll be able to build an appropriate theater, but until then they are fantastic.

Oh, and they are capable of getting absolutely, ridiculously loud. Maybe even more so than the Cat 12C's. Over reference level (ear plugs in) I was monitoring levels, and on the absolute loudest peaks, the -20db mark on the I-tech 5000 HD's just BARELY started flickering occasionally. So they still had more to go at that insane level.
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post #2990 of 4604 Old 06-07-2017, 10:14 AM
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Good answers on this posted already, but one additional thing bears mentioning:

Having the speakers on either side of the screen means that sounds that are supposed to emanate from the left and right sides of the screen will emanate from outside the left and right of the screen. Sometimes I find this distracting. The sound does not precisely follow picture, if a sound event is specifically placed on screen.
Would you say a 16" spread between the three M2 speakers as LCR is too close? Basically referring to this: M2 <--16"--> M2 <--16"--> M2. Most have said this is too close and may cause issues with the overall sound. However, if you have a look at Scott's setup, he has his three LCR speakers basically right next to each other: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/29-wha...o-ht-room.html

Secondly, you stated you are basically a "projection only" dealer. Since audio might not be the forefront of what you are trying to demo, have you considered using a micro-perf screen? They usually deliver solid/non-AT screen like picture quality while providing you the ability to place the LCR speakers behind the screen. Basically referring to something like the Stewart StudioTek 100.

Lastly, what is your opinion on 7.1.4 vs. 5.1.4? Will I miss out a lot by not having back surround speakers?
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post #2991 of 4604 Old 06-07-2017, 10:17 AM
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Why kind of setup are you aiming for currently? Referring to x.x.x. Will you be going with Atmos/DTS:X or a simpler 5.1 or 7.1 setup?
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post #2992 of 4604 Old 06-07-2017, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Kain View Post
Would you say a 16" spread between the three M2 speakers as LCR is too close? Basically referring to this: M2 <--16"--> M2 <--16"--> M2. Most have said this is too close and may cause issues with the overall sound. However, if you have a look at Scott's setup, he has his three LCR speakers basically right next to each other: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/29-wha...o-ht-room.html

Secondly, you stated you are basically a "projection only" dealer. Since audio might not be the forefront of what you are trying to demo, have you considered using a micro-perf screen? They usually deliver solid/non-AT screen like picture quality while providing you the ability to place the LCR speakers behind the screen. Basically referring to something like the Stewart StudioTek 100.

Lastly, what is your opinion on 7.1.4 vs. 5.1.4? Will I miss out a lot by not having back surround speakers?
Actually, audio is my passion, so my emphasis is always on the sound part of the equation. On the video side, we specialize in projection, but that doesn't mean that I want to sacrifice audio on the altar of great video At the same time, I don't want to make excuses for how good or bad a $35,000 projector looks based on screen material.

That said, I'd be all over the Stewart StudioTek Microperf if I didn't sit close enough that the perfs would be visible with certain content. We just put in a perfed StudioTek130 at a truly impressive install down the street, and it looks great as long as you are more than 12 ft. back.

We had one guy who wanted to put 5 JBL Everests side by side across the front of his room, only two inches apart (!). We recommended against it, but that's what he wanted. Jim at Harman called it an "Everest Sound Bar," lol.

I will reach out and see if I can get a better answer re: how close to place the M2s.

If you goal is eventually Atmos / Auro / DTS-X, I would say definitely worth it to go with 7.1. Even if you don't go immersive, the rear channels really help. I can think of one particular scene in one of the Mission Impossible movies where a car lifts over your head and crashes right behind you

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post #2993 of 4604 Old 06-07-2017, 12:40 PM
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Actually, audio is my passion, so my emphasis is always on the sound part of the equation. On the video side, we specialize in projection, but that doesn't mean that I want to sacrifice audio on the altar of great video At the same time, I don't want to make excuses for how good or bad a $35,000 projector looks based on screen material.

That said, I'd be all over the Stewart StudioTek Microperf if I didn't sit close enough that the perfs would be visible with certain content. We just put in a perfed StudioTek130 at a truly impressive install down the street, and it looks great as long as you are more than 12 ft. back.

We had one guy who wanted to put 5 JBL Everests side by side across the front of his room, only two inches apart (!). We recommended against it, but that's what he wanted. Jim at Harman called it an "Everest Sound Bar," lol.

I will reach out and see if I can get a better answer re: how close to place the M2s.

If you goal is eventually Atmos / Auro / DTS-X, I would say definitely worth it to go with 7.1. Even if you don't go immersive, the rear channels really help. I can think of one particular scene in one of the Mission Impossible movies where a car lifts over your head and crashes right behind you
Thanks. Will wait for you to get a response/answer on the spacing question. You're a great help on these forums.
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post #2994 of 4604 Old 06-07-2017, 01:27 PM
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@Blackdevil77

Why kind of setup are you aiming for currently? Referring to x.x.x. Will you be going with Atmos/DTS:X or a simpler 5.1 or 7.1 setup?
Right now I'm at a lowly 4.2 set up (phantom center). Currently house hunting for a more permanent residence and that is where I will build my dream theater. Not completely sure how many surrounds I will have, but I'm guessing it will be around a 7.4.6. Yes, 6 atmos speakers and at least 4 subs or 4 sub locations and most definitely, 3 M2's for L/C/R. The housing market is tough right now, I found 3 houses I liked and when I called to schedule a viewing, they were all in contract already, one of which was only listed for 7 days!
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post #2995 of 4604 Old 06-07-2017, 01:52 PM
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Right now I'm at a lowly 4.2 set up (phantom center). Currently house hunting for a more permanent residence and that is where I will build my dream theater. Not completely sure how many surrounds I will have, but I'm guessing it will be around a 7.4.6. Yes, 6 atmos speakers and at least 4 subs or 4 sub locations and most definitely, 3 M2's for L/C/R. The housing market is tough right now, I found 3 houses I liked and when I called to schedule a viewing, they were all in contract already, one of which was only listed for 7 days!
I see, thanks. Which pre/pro do you plan to use in order to support a 7.1.6 setup? Good luck with the house hunting too!
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post #2996 of 4604 Old 06-07-2017, 04:51 PM
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Thanks. Will wait for you to get a response/answer on the spacing question. You're a great help on these forums.
Thanks Kain! Glad someone feels that way

Here is what I got back from Harman:

While maybe more than a bit out of the ordinary, the 16” distance will be OK.

Hope that helps!

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The Screening Room Home Theater Sales and Design
JS Music and Sound Film Scoring and Sound Design
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post #2997 of 4604 Old 06-07-2017, 04:53 PM
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I see, thanks. Which pre/pro do you plan to use in order to support a 7.1.6 setup? Good luck with the house hunting too!
Obviously the JBL and Trinnov will do it

OR you can array the extra channels using an SDEC, even if your processor is 11 channels only.
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post #2998 of 4604 Old 06-07-2017, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Kain View Post
I see, thanks. Which pre/pro do you plan to use in order to support a 7.1.6 setup? Good luck with the house hunting too!
Depends what is available when the time comes.

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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
Obviously the JBL and Trinnov will do it

OR you can array the extra channels using an SDEC, even if your processor is 11 channels only.
Yes, the Trinnov piece is excellent, but is crazy $$$. The Altitude 24 should do the trick.
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post #2999 of 4604 Old 06-07-2017, 11:50 PM
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Thanks.

Looking at your signature, you have the M2 with the SUB18. How do you like the SUB18? Also, what are you using for surround speakers?
I like the SUB18s. They provide clean and "fast" bass (I hate that term, but don't know how else to describe it.). They sound very similar to the JBL S1S-EX but with more authority and "weight" to the sound. Those two subs are the best subs I have ever heard. Some will say that they suck because they lack <20hz extension.

IMO they are highly overpriced though, but I paid this to have the complete package.

Home Theater: JBL M2 & SUB18 powered by Crown and BSS.
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post #3000 of 4604 Old 06-08-2017, 05:04 AM
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I like the SUB18s. They provide clean and "fast" bass (I hate that term, but don't know how else to describe it.). They sound very similar to the JBL S1S-EX but with more authority and "weight" to the sound. Those two subs are the best subs I have ever heard. Some will say that they suck because they lack <20hz extension.

IMO they are highly overpriced though, but I paid this to have the complete package.
I have one Sub18 complementing my M2s, and it contributes, invisibly, a great amount of authority to demanding music. I can not imagine doing without it. It did require, however, significant effort using REW measurements to get the sub positioning just right for my listening position. I suspect the high quality design of the 18" driver along with the raw power of the ITech5000 provides a sound that competes vary favorably with anything else currently on the market.

I often wonder what 5 M2s and 4 Sub18s placed in a well engineered room would sound like. Of course, one would want to drive the M2s with 10 Mark Levinson mono blocks. One can dream.
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