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post #3481 of 4616 Old 12-18-2017, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by JonasHansen View Post
The wall is 140 inches. (Without the space used for acoustics on side-walls).
So is the room about 12' wide? It's nice to see an M2 install in a room similar to what I'm likely to end up with. You start a build thread? Curious to see what you end up with for seats and screen. I have a bit to decide what I'm doing, but...I'm getting closer.

I'll be stacking two (maybe three) Seaton F18's in between each L/R and center, so it'll be a very similar layout!
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post #3482 of 4616 Old 12-18-2017, 11:20 AM
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Actually have not decided yet I will set everything up as 7.1 for a start with some Jamo dipoles (D600Sur) which I have from previous room. Simply have not decided on what speakers should replace them and now I just want to be able to watch some movies.

I'm looking at JBL Control 128W in-walls as ceiling/sides/rear for a start. A pair of sides for each row, rears and three pairs of ceiling. Then the layout should be future-proof.

I'm using BSS Soundwebs for M2-presets and overall room correction and Yamah CX-5100 surround processor.
Man o man that looks awesome! What is the CD height on that setup though? I presume second row is MLP with them up that high...

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post #3483 of 4616 Old 12-18-2017, 11:23 AM
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Man o man that looks awesome! What is the CD height on that setup though? I presume second row is MLP with them up that high...
Actually first row will be MLP. 13 feet from the speakers. Ceiling is only 6.5 feet so they might look higher than they are. I'm well within their dispersion pattern on first and second row.

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post #3484 of 4616 Old 12-18-2017, 12:10 PM
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So what does that put horn center height at anyways? close to 50" I would guess. I only ask as Ive been contemplating of sticking my 4367's (Narrower vertical than m2) on top of my sub cabs but am afraid of the horn, while still inside the pattern, being too high above ear level. My setup does double as 2 channel and movies with a pretty even split these days. I put more importance of the horn at ear level for 2 channel music than for movies of course.

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post #3485 of 4616 Old 12-18-2017, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
So what does that put horn center height at anyways? close to 50" I would guess. I only ask as Ive been contemplating of sticking my 4367's (Narrower vertical than m2) on top of my sub cabs but am afraid of the horn, while still inside the pattern, being too high above ear level. My setup does double as 2 channel and movies with a pretty even split these days. I put more importance of the horn at ear level for 2 channel music than for movies of course.
I've got 39 inches from floor to woofer centerline. Don't remember how far the woofer centerline and horn centerline are from each other - can measure later this week. Around 50" sound about right.

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post #3486 of 4616 Old 12-18-2017, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
So what does that put horn center height at anyways? close to 50" I would guess. I only ask as Ive been contemplating of sticking my 4367's (Narrower vertical than m2) on top of my sub cabs but am afraid of the horn, while still inside the pattern, being too high above ear level. My setup does double as 2 channel and movies with a pretty even split these days. I put more importance of the horn at ear level for 2 channel music than for movies of course.
flip em?
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post #3487 of 4616 Old 12-19-2017, 07:45 AM
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flip em?
Yep. That's on the table. Bought some good rubber/foam pads to secure them and hopefully avoid any and all movement.

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post #3488 of 4616 Old 01-01-2018, 02:46 PM
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I think this came up briefly about a year ago when a pair of used M2's popped up for sale with I-tech 12000HD's. Do the presets that you upload into the I-tech amps have limiters in place, or are you able to utilize the full power or whatever I-tech amp you use? Is there any benefit to using a 12000HD over a 5000HD with the M2's, or would it just be a waste of amplifier power that can't even bee used?

@notnyt I believe you unlocked the preset settings and saw everything. Did you notice any limiters in place that prevented the use of the full power of the I-tech amps with the M2 presets?
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post #3489 of 4616 Old 01-01-2018, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Blackdevil77 View Post
I think this came up briefly about a year ago when a pair of used M2's popped up for sale with I-tech 12000HD's. Do the presets that you upload into the I-tech amps have limiters in place, or are you able to utilize the full power or whatever I-tech amp you use? Is there any benefit to using a 12000HD over a 5000HD with the M2's, or would it just be a waste of amplifier power that can't even bee used?

@notnyt I believe you unlocked the preset settings and saw everything. Did you notice any limiters in place that prevented the use of the full power of the I-tech amps with the M2 presets?
There were LF limiters likely to prevent over excursion.



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post #3490 of 4616 Old 01-01-2018, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
There were LF limiters likely to prevent over excursion.



Perfect, thank you! I'm guessing that limiter is more for those running them full range.
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post #3491 of 4616 Old 01-01-2018, 04:50 PM
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Looking closely at those pages of EQ kinda blows my mind. It took someone a long time to dial those in to get such flat anechoic response.

Those speakers would sound horrible without all that EQ!

Curious about the LF pages. One is HP27 and the other is No HP. How does that work? One is used if hi-passed at 27 HZ and the other is used if no HP filter is used?
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post #3492 of 4616 Old 01-01-2018, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
Looking closely at those pages of EQ kinda blows my mind. It took someone a long time to dial those in to get such flat anechoic response.

Those speakers would sound horrible without all that EQ!

Curious about the LF pages. One is HP27 and the other is No HP. How does that work? One is used if hi-passed at 27 HZ and the other is used if no HP filter is used?
Rofl, it really doesn't take that long. Also, compression drivers require significant output shaping. The LF section, not as much.

The HP27 has a highpass at 27hz in th eq settings, the other doesn't.
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post #3493 of 4616 Old 01-02-2018, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
Looking closely at those pages of EQ kinda blows my mind. It took someone a long time to dial those in to get such flat anechoic response.

Those speakers would sound horrible without all that EQ!

Curious about the LF pages. One is HP27 and the other is No HP. How does that work? One is used if hi-passed at 27 HZ and the other is used if no HP filter is used?
You do realize that passive x-overs can perform output shaping, too, right? And that these don't have any.
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post #3494 of 4616 Old 01-02-2018, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
Those speakers would sound horrible without all that EQ!
If you don't apply any room correction EQ, at all, and just select the plain vanilla EQ settings for neutral response the suggested adjustments are very mild:

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post #3495 of 4616 Old 01-02-2018, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
If you don't apply any room correction EQ, at all, and just select the plain vanilla EQ settings for neutral response the suggested adjustments are very mild:
That's not showing the full eq applied, only the input. Look at the output.
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post #3496 of 4616 Old 01-02-2018, 05:10 PM
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That's not showing the full eq applied, only the input. Look at the output.
Would you please post the full standard EQ then.
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post #3497 of 4616 Old 01-02-2018, 05:15 PM
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You do realize that passive x-overs can perform output shaping, too, right? And that these don't have any.
No they can't. Passive drivers can basically only cut frequencies and not boost them. A lot of those settings would not be practical or even possible with a passive crossover.
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post #3498 of 4616 Old 01-02-2018, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Would you please post the full standard EQ then.
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post #3499 of 4616 Old 01-02-2018, 08:19 PM
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No they can't. Passive drivers can basically only cut frequencies and not boost them. A lot of those settings would not be practical or even possible with a passive crossover.
Semantics, I suppose, regarding the term "shaping"? The more you have to "EQ" in a passive network the more you lose efficiency in the system. Still, passive systems can "shape" (tweak, tune, tone, refine...any better term?) the sound and I'd guess any speaker network would be better optimized with some amount.

So, to say these speakers would sound "terrible" without any "EQ" is a bit disingenuous, IMO because any raw drivers placed in a box without anything but a simple x-over will probably sound better if optimized ("shaped"?). I suppose a horn system needs a bit more help here, but it's not like it can't be done passively (ala SCL-2 which supposedly rivals the M2 and other passive horn speakers that also sound great in their own right).

Anyway, the point is that the M2s could sound great with a passive network if JBL wanted to design them that way. However, I agree, you can do more within an active system and even more in a DSP-based system, to go the extra mile.
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post #3500 of 4616 Old 01-03-2018, 12:54 AM
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anyway, the point is that the m2s could sound great with a passive network if jbl wanted to design them that way.

4367

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post #3501 of 4616 Old 01-03-2018, 10:57 AM
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^^^And yea, they sound great!
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post #3502 of 4616 Old 01-03-2018, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post
Semantics, I suppose, regarding the term "shaping"? The more you have to "EQ" in a passive network the more you lose efficiency in the system. Still, passive systems can "shape" (tweak, tune, tone, refine...any better term?) the sound and I'd guess any speaker network would be better optimized with some amount.

So, to say these speakers would sound "terrible" without any "EQ" is a bit disingenuous, IMO because any raw drivers placed in a box without anything but a simple x-over will probably sound better if optimized ("shaped"?). I suppose a horn system needs a bit more help here, but it's not like it can't be done passively (ala SCL-2 which supposedly rivals the M2 and other passive horn speakers that also sound great in their own right).

Anyway, the point is that the M2s could sound great with a passive network if JBL wanted to design them that way. However, I agree, you can do more within an active system and even more in a DSP-based system, to go the extra mile.
I never said these speakers would sound terrible without EQ. I am just saying there are advantages to an active system that just can't be done with a passive design.
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post #3503 of 4616 Old 01-03-2018, 01:46 PM
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I never said these speakers would sound terrible without EQ. I am just saying there are advantages to an active system that just can't be done with a passive design.
I know you didn't, but the poster I originally responded to did, and I was just clarifying why I made the original response.

Rex said they must sound like crap because of the active EQ. I was basically saying that wasn't a fair statement because a passive version would have "EQ" as well.
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When I saw the EQ notnyt originally posted (#3490) I thought it was the EQ necessary to get flat response in the anechoic chamber.

My statement was, they would sound like crap like without EQ if they needed all that to get flat response.

I know the 4367 is the passive crossover version and the spin looks pretty good (not as good as the M2 though).

Sorry for any confusion.
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post #3505 of 4616 Old 01-03-2018, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
When I saw the EQ notnyt originally posted (#3490) I thought it was the EQ necessary to get flat response in the anechoic chamber.

My statement was, they would sound like crap like without EQ if they needed all that to get flat response.

I know the 4367 is the passive crossover version and the spin looks pretty good (not as good as the M2 though).

Sorry for any confusion.

That's what it is, that's the EQ for flat freq response from them.
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I dunno, it seems like if only the driver matching crossover EQ slopes were implemented and none of the anechoic corrections, it would still be fairly close. Certainly not neutral but definitely opposite from "crap." I don't think it'd be hard to find raving reviews of past speakers and cross-check with NRC data showing larger variations in response.

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post #3507 of 4616 Old 01-20-2018, 02:06 PM
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Judging by the other cabinets and applications the D2 driver is used in, you think there would be any benefit to using I-tech 12000HD's with the M2's? Would that increase headroom/power reserve? I'm guessing when crossed at 80hz, not trying to play lower frequencies, the M2 should be able to handle a little extra power, without running the risk of over excursion. Not that they need it, the 5000HD's matched with these are insane as it is, I was just wondering if it would be done and if there would be a benefit since I've seen a few people get the M2's with the 12000's rather than the 5000's.

@John Schuermann Was it you that mentioned somebody that uses I-tech 12000HD's with the M2's?

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post #3508 of 4616 Old 01-25-2018, 03:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Blackdevil77 View Post
Judging by the other cabinets and applications the D2 driver is used in, you think there would be any benefit to using I-tech 12000HD's with the M2's? Would that increase headroom/power reserve? I'm guessing when crossed at 80hz, not trying to play lower frequencies, the M2 should be able to handle a little extra power, without running the risk of over excursion. Not that they need it, the 5000HD's matched with these are insane as it is, I was just wondering if it would be done and if there would be a benefit since I've seen a few people get the M2's with the 12000's rather than the 5000's.

@John Schuermann Was it you that mentioned somebody that uses I-tech 12000HD's with the M2's?
With the 5000HD's you'll get 108 dB Peak SPL @ 8m.

If you need larger peaks or is increasing distance from the speaker in a home theater, then I guess the 12000HDs would benefit.

So my answer: I don't see any real-life-scenario benefit for choosing the 12000HDs. I have not seen anyone do so - more often I see people choosing the DCI/SDA amps which are 600w pr. driver.

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post #3509 of 4616 Old 01-25-2018, 03:34 AM
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Originally Posted by JonasHansen View Post
With the 5000HD's you'll get 108 dB Peak SPL @ 8m.

If you need larger peaks or is increasing distance from the speaker in a home theater, then I guess the 12000HDs would benefit.

So my answer: I don't see any real-life-scenario benefit for choosing the 12000HDs. I have not seen anyone do so - more often I see people choosing the DCI/SDA amps which are 600w pr. driver.
There's no situation I would ever be in that I would need extra output (I don't think at least), I was just wondering if there would be a benefit or increased output by running an I-tech 12000HD since there is a limiter in place for the low frequency driver. I don't know nearly as much as some, but as notnyt said, it's likely there to prevent over excursion, so I'm wondering if it'll ever see enough power from an I-tech 5000HD to run that risk when crossed over at 80hz. JBL claims 3 times greater output with the use of the SUB18 (or any capable sub, I would guess). Is that 108 db at 25 feet (8m) with or without a sub?
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post #3510 of 4616 Old 01-25-2018, 06:05 PM
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Sorry I missed this - what I posted was that Charles Sprinkle, the man responsible for coming up with much of what is in the M2 (especially the waveguide) uses the Crown DCi4|1250n to power his personal pair of M2s.

He told me I was totally good getting to earsplitting levels cleanly in my space with the SDA4600 at 600 watts top and bottom, but that he went with the 1250 watt top and bottom Crown "just in case."

I think that the 12000HDs would make you instantly deaf

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