JBL 'M2' Master Reference Monitor - Page 136 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4051 of 4622 Old 08-03-2018, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
Hello all! Sorry I’ve been away for so long – based on some messages I’ve received, it looks like I was missed, which is a nice little ego boost 😊 The reasons for my absence are two-fold: one, we’ve had several very large local jobs that have taken up a large part of my time, and two – I’ve been trying hard to get back to work on a feature film I’ve had in development for the last couple of years. More on that in a bit – hope you’ll read on to learn about it, since the themes of the film touch on so many topics covered in these Harman threads (believe it or not!).

But first, I’d like to say that I’m very pleased that @Rex Anderson is essentially going to be taking over my role most of the time on these threads. Rex is outstanding at supplying everyone with truly informed thoughts and opinions, plus now has the same kind of high level access to Harman personnel that I have enjoyed – which means he is able to get authoritative answers to your questions. As anyone who reads his posts knows, Rex is incredibly knowledgeable about all things audio and bases his comments on solid science and an understanding of what is really important in an A/V system. Since Rex and I started working together we’ve found that we speak in almost exactly the same “voice” – one we think is based in a solid, “evidence-based” approach to these technologies. As a result, Rex now has a direct line to people like Dr. Floyd Toole, Dr. Sean Olive, Kevin Voecks, Mark Glazer and others at Harman that can provide high level feedback for those who are posting here. All the introductions have been made and Rex is now poised to be the “go to” for ACCURATE Harman / Revel / Lexicon / JBL Synthesis info. The whole team at Harman stands by ready to support him 😊

Once you know a little background on Rex I think you can see why he is the ideal person to take over - he learned audio fundamentals at the Institute of Audio Research in New York and got a Bachelor's Degree in Audio Engineering from the University of Illinois. He was the Director of Audio and Video Services for the School of Music there for 32 years. Rex has also worked as a recording, mixing, editing, mastering and live sound engineer, having engineered thousands of recordings and produced numerous vinyl records and CDs for professional artists. He has extensive knowledge of room acoustics and experience as an audio systems designer for professional and consumer audio, recording studios, live sound systems, and home theaters.

I will be dropping in from time to time but as mentioned above I am getting pulled in other directions. I honestly think Rex is “the guy” to take my place here on AVS.

Stand by for my next post – a little “self-publicity” on a movie I’m working on 😊
Well, after that post about Rex, sounds like we don't need you here anymore. Glad to hear things are going so well!
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post #4052 of 4622 Old 10-01-2018, 12:54 PM
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@Gooddoc

I asked quite a long time ago what the difference would be between powering the M2 with the 5000HD vs. the SDA/DCi N amps. You stated the following:

Quote:
The iTech 5000HD is a more robustly built touring amp. It has a better S/N ratio, greater input gain adjustability, lower THD, greater damping factor, better dc output offset voltage, and it has an AES/EBU input. Among other things. But most importantly, you need an SDEC for the M2 crossovers whereas the iTech 5000HD has BSS OMNIDRIVEHD DSP with 24-bit, 192kHz Cirrus Logic SHARC A/D and D/A converters built-in.
Source: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...l#post52483217

However, I also recall you stating, at another time, that if the SDA or DCi N amps were available at the time you purchased your M2s, you would have gotten them over the 5000HD amps. My question is, if you stated all those positives for the 5000HD over the SDA/DCi N amps, why would you pick the SDA/DCi N amps over the 5000HD if you had the chance to do it over again?
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post #4053 of 4622 Old 10-01-2018, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Kain View Post
@Gooddoc

I asked quite a long time ago what the difference would be between powering the M2 with the 5000HD vs. the SDA/DCi N amps. You stated the following:



Source: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...l#post52483217

However, I also recall you stating, at another time, that if the SDA or DCi N amps were available at the time you purchased your M2s, you would have gotten them over the 5000HD amps. My question is, if you stated all those positives for the 5000HD over the SDA/DCi N amps, why would you pick the SDA/DCi N amps over the 5000HD if you had the chance to do it over again?
@Kain

I'm not Gooddoc, however, I did travel to Harman and spend time with Charles Sprinkle. In my visit I asked which amp I should go with. He told me without hesitation that he uses the DCi and would see no reason for the I Tech in the typical home setting unless one has a ballroom for 5000 people and were going to play at very high SPL. I did purchase the DCi and now it's for sale for an incredible price.

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post #4054 of 4622 Old 10-01-2018, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain View Post
@Gooddoc

I asked quite a long time ago what the difference would be between powering the M2 with the 5000HD vs. the SDA/DCi N amps. You stated the following:



Source: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...l#post52483217

However, I also recall you stating, at another time, that if the SDA or DCi N amps were available at the time you purchased your M2s, you would have gotten them over the 5000HD amps. My question is, if you stated all those positives for the 5000HD over the SDA/DCi N amps, why would you pick the SDA/DCi N amps over the 5000HD if you had the chance to do it over again?
Hmmm. Perhaps I said that, can't recall to be honest. But if I did I'm pretty sure it would be due to cost, primarily. When I bought the M2's there was no other amp that could take the tunings. Once the tunings were made DCi compatible the landscape changed.
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post #4055 of 4622 Old 10-02-2018, 04:39 AM
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I am personally very interested in the difference between various amps. Some people say that there is not difference as long as they are within their limits and others say there can be night and day differences.

DCi amps are "standard" Class D topology and iTech are Class I. I know that everytime I have heard Class I on subs the bass have had a dynamic and "control" that was extremely good. Class I also have higher switching frequency compared to the DCi which (in theory) should improve reproduction of higher frequencies.

But I would love to hear about others experience about using different amplifiers and if it actually makes a difference. There was one guy in this thread which changed to an Emotiva amp for the M2s for example. Don't remember his conclusions.

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post #4056 of 4622 Old 10-02-2018, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by JonasHansen View Post
I am personally very interested in the difference between various amps. Some people say that there is not difference as long as they are within their limits and others say there can be night and day differences.

DCi amps are "standard" Class D topology and iTech are Class I. I know that everytime I have heard Class I on subs the bass have had a dynamic and "control" that was extremely good. Class I also have higher switching frequency compared to the DCi which (in theory) should improve reproduction of higher frequencies.

But I would love to hear about others experience about using different amplifiers and if it actually makes a difference. There was one guy in this thread which changed to an Emotiva amp for the M2s for example. Don't remember his conclusions.
I agree that amps will be indistinguishable within their sweet spot. But as they are pushed perhaps audible differences will show up. I may have made a different choice based on cost if there was an option at the time, but I'm happy I have amps that will wring every potential ounce of performance, cleanly, out of the M2's. I also prefer that the DSP is integrated into the amp or prepro, so a separate box like the SDEC doesn't appeal to me.
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post #4057 of 4622 Old 10-02-2018, 09:03 AM
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I keep hoping that one day JBL will just take the cake pan dsp/amps they have in the 7P series and put it in the M2/4367/SCL-2 cabinets.

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post #4058 of 4622 Old 10-02-2018, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
I agree that amps will be indistinguishable within their sweet spot. But as they are pushed perhaps audible differences will show up. I may have made a different choice based on cost if there was an option at the time, but I'm happy I have amps that will wring every potential ounce of performance, cleanly, out of the M2's. I also prefer that the DSP is integrated into the amp or prepro, so a separate box like the SDEC doesn't appeal to me.
For people using the M2s in a theater setting, there will be a box like the SDEC anyway But I understand your choice. Simplicity is good on the integrated solution.

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post #4059 of 4622 Old 10-02-2018, 01:05 PM
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I have not decided on an amp yet. I assume those that are using the SDA amps are using a single channel for each driver (or power a pair of M2s with a single 4ch amp) or are you bridging outputs and using a single SDA for each M2?

Thanks

Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #4060 of 4622 Old 10-02-2018, 01:34 PM
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Thanks for the replies to my question.

I had a quick look at prices online and it seems the I-Tech 5000HD and DCi 2|2400N are pretty much the same price and power wise. Based on what Gooddoc stated in my post quoting him from an earlier post regarding I-Tech vs. DCi and what JonasHansen said a few posts up regarding amp topology of the I-Tech and DCi, is there any reason to pick the DCi over the I-Tech?
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I have not decided on an amp yet. I assume those that are using the SDA amps are using a single channel for each driver (or power a pair of M2s with a single 4ch amp) or are you bridging outputs and using a single SDA for each M2?

Thanks
This speaker has no real passive crossover in the traditional sense and must be bi-amplified. You need 4 channels of power per pair.
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post #4062 of 4622 Old 10-02-2018, 04:26 PM
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This speaker has no real passive crossover in the traditional sense and must be bi-amplified. You need 4 channels of power per pair.
I’m aware of that.

My question was if any M2 owners were using a single 4 ch SDA amp for EACH speaker? (bridging each pair of outputs to connect to each driver of a single M2)?
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post #4063 of 4622 Old 10-02-2018, 04:28 PM
 
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Oops sorry. My bad.
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post #4064 of 4622 Old 10-02-2018, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by JonasHansen View Post
For people using the M2s in a theater setting, there will be a box like the SDEC anyway But I understand your choice. Simplicity is good on the integrated solution.
What I need is a prepro with ARCOS and SFM instead of Dirac or Audyssey...
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post #4065 of 4622 Old 10-02-2018, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Kain View Post
Thanks for the replies to my question.

I had a quick look at prices online and it seems the I-Tech 5000HD and DCi 2|2400N are pretty much the same price and power wise. Based on what Gooddoc stated in my post quoting him from an earlier post regarding I-Tech vs. DCi and what JonasHansen said a few posts up regarding amp topology of the I-Tech and DCi, is there any reason to pick the DCi over the I-Tech?
It really depends on what components your looking to integrate the amps with. For a Synthesis system, the DCi seems to make sense. If more connection flexibility is needed, the iTech.

I don't believe there would be anything but theoretical advantages and specmanship differences between the two. The choice should be based on integration needs.
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I am personally very interested in the difference between various amps. Some people say that there is not difference as long as they are within their limits and others say there can be night and day differences.
The differences worth noting for Class D amps relate to the interaction amp's source impedance and the driven load. Here, that is not an issue as the speaker and amplifier are a closed system. Any differences are accounted for in the tuning file.

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post #4067 of 4622 Old 10-03-2018, 12:08 AM
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I’m aware of that.

My question was if any M2 owners were using a single 4 ch SDA amp for EACH speaker? (bridging each pair of outputs to connect to each driver of a single M2)?
I'm using an SDA4600 for Lt+Rt ch. when red lights appear the volume is very high, very high. Listening distance is 11ft.
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I’m aware of that.

My question was if any M2 owners were using a single 4 ch SDA amp for EACH speaker? (bridging each pair of outputs to connect to each driver of a single M2)?
The center channel is driven with a single bridged SDA4600 and I've never seen the limiter lights. Never once.
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post #4069 of 4622 Old 10-03-2018, 01:37 AM
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The "Rob Hahn Theater" designed by Keith Yates, use Mark Levinson No531H and No533H which are rated to 300w (continuously. Peak is higher though). This is a big theater. That was a surprise to me but I guess there is reasoning behind this choice.

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They aren't what I'd choose for myself but I can see why if I were a professional installer, that I'd recommend these. Besides the fat profit margins.
  • They are silent in operation, no fans. I also gather their electrical noise is low enough where it can't be heard through high efficiency speakers in a soundproofed theater.
  • They can be networked with remote fault reporting directly to the mfg.'s service
  • They are built like tanks but also are clean and modular inside so quick on-site repairs can be made via module swapping.

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post #4071 of 4622 Old 10-03-2018, 07:56 AM
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I’m aware of that.

My question was if any M2 owners were using a single 4 ch SDA amp for EACH speaker? (bridging each pair of outputs to connect to each driver of a single M2)?
I've only seen people use the sda 1250|4 for a pair of speakers and in that particular orientation, would still be more power than you'd ever need to get to reference in even the largest home theaters.

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post #4072 of 4622 Old 10-03-2018, 11:48 AM
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What I need is a prepro with ARCOS and SFM instead of Dirac or Audyssey...
Good question for Kevin or Jim Garrett. John will see them this weekend at Rocky Mountain Audio Fest and ask about it.

The current Lexicon has the ARCOS target curve but is using Dirac. From our understanding, you can do SFM with the Lexicon using an outboard MiniDSP. John is trying to do this.

I'll do my best to keep you up to date as I learn more.
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Good question for Kevin or Jim Garrett. John will see them this weekend at Rocky Mountain Audio Fest and ask about it.

The current Lexicon has the ARCOS target curve but is using Dirac. From our understanding, you can do SFM with the Lexicon using an outboard MiniDSP. John is trying to do this.

I'll do my best to keep you up to date as I learn more.
I know the Lex units were a little glitchy upon release, has that been remedied? I am ok if they still only offer the global crossover point as that is fine with me.

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post #4074 of 4622 Old 10-03-2018, 12:42 PM
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Good question for Kevin or Jim Garrett. John will see them this weekend at Rocky Mountain Audio Fest and ask about it.

The current Lexicon has the ARCOS target curve but is using Dirac. From our understanding, you can do SFM with the Lexicon using an outboard MiniDSP. John is trying to do this.

I'll do my best to keep you up to date as I learn more.
It's unfortunate that Harman has decided that the only access to ARCOS and SFM will be in the stratosphere of hardware/software pricing with a minimum entry fee of 7-10k(SDEC) and jumping right to 25-30k(SDP-75). Their speaker range is generally on the high price side, but reasonably affordable. Too bad it's unaffordable to stay in the Harman family for calibration.
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It's unfortunate that Harman has decided that the only access to ARCOS and SFM will be in the stratosphere of hardware/software pricing with a minimum entry fee of 7-10k(SDEC) and jumping right to 25-30k(SDP-75). Their speaker range is generally on the high price side, but reasonably affordable. Too bad it's unaffordable to stay in the Harman family for calibration.
I unfortunately have to agree with this 100%. If the lexicon could get me even close with the arcos in it, I would consider it, but I am already pretty happy still with the avm-60 and what I can do with it, so not in a huge hurry.....but I could be convinced I guess
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I unfortunately have to agree with this 100%. If the lexicon could get me even close with the arcos in it, I would consider it, but I am already pretty happy still with the avm-60 and what I can do with it, so not in a huge hurry.....but I could be convinced I guess
I think the dilemma for Harman is that even if they decided to offer ARCOS in a pre-pro for the masses, the calibration would cost as much as the prepro. I suspect that what makes ARCOS superior to Dirac or Audyssey has as much to to with the expensive microphone arrays and measuring minutia as it does with the actual ARCOS software. In other words, using the same technique for measuring the room that is forced upon Dirac and Audyssey - cheap mics and clueless consumers - the results would probably not be better.
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I know the Lex units were a little glitchy upon release, has that been remedied? I am ok if they still only offer the global crossover point as that is fine with me.
Been using my Leixicon MC10 since it launched. Zero issues. Using Dirac according to Harman instructions (which are quite different than the Dirac instructions).

Yes, one crossover point for the floor and a separate one for heights.

Can window the correction and adjust the curves, using the Harman target.

The supposed issue with bass management is / was a non-issue. I measured before and after EQ using REW and it blends just like it should

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post #4078 of 4622 Old 10-03-2018, 04:12 PM
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Here are the REW measurements of my right Salon2, before and after Dirac using the Lexicon MC10. I have some boundary issues I am still working through, but you get the idea:

No EQ:



With EQ:

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post #4079 of 4622 Old 10-03-2018, 05:55 PM
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Here are the REW measurements of my right Salon2, before and after Dirac using the Lexicon MC10. I have some boundary issues I am still working through, but you get the idea:
Are those measurements at the listening position? Also, it would be really helpful to combine them on one graph and just offset. Makes comparison much easier . Oh, and make scale 10dB increments. And feel free to be like, FU Gooddoc, do it yourself! Haha

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post #4080 of 4622 Old 10-03-2018, 05:59 PM
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Here are the REW measurements of my right Salon2, before and after Dirac using the Lexicon MC10. I have some boundary issues I am still working through, but you get the idea:

No EQ:



With EQ:

With a 240 dB vertical scale, I can make anything look great. Try the default 105-45 scale, and realistically 50 hz to 20khz on the horizontal scale.
Wookii likes this.

Ask your doctor if DIY is right for you. Side effects of DIY may include anxiety, elevated blood pressure, lightheadedness, rapid heartbeat, skeletal muscle flaccidity, euphoria, psychological dependence, insomnia, confusion, blurred vision, implusivity, uncontrolled or repeated movements.
michael hurd is offline  
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