JBL 'M2' Master Reference Monitor - Page 141 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4201 of 4691 Old 12-03-2018, 04:33 PM
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I knew I had them just needed to find them. Here is the amperage draw of the DCi 4 1250N when the power is turned on and when it's playing at ~85dB in my room.
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post #4202 of 4691 Old 12-03-2018, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by ioanni View Post
So how worse would a theoretical solution be, of a BLU-XXX BSS processor and iNuke6000s, one handling the DSP/Crossovers and the other giving the raw power, instead of the Crown DCIs or any other amp, if the recommendation is to use lots of power because of the CD impedance? Inukes can be modded to have a silent fan on top. Of course the iNuke is a 300 pound amplifier versus the Crown being 5000 a piece, but is their main difference (only in their role as Power Amplifiers), apart from any build quality, the FR non-linearity you mention?
Why would you spend the money on an M2 then use a junk amp like the inuke?
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post #4203 of 4691 Old 12-03-2018, 07:42 PM
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Has anyone run the DCI 300n on the M2? Crazy output is not my goal. I would like to stay in the DCI 300n range since the 1250 is 20 amp native, and I don't want to run 20amp (too much construction work). I know the 1250 can be run with a 15amp cheater plug, which is also an option. We are only talking 6db between the 1250n and 300n correct? The 708 is doing fine output wise. The M2 would be primarily for improved detail/clarity and a bit more headroom for movie dynamics since I am on the boarder line distance wise with the 708.
I wouldn't worry about it. I have both 5000HD's and a 8/300N on one 20 amp circuit along with some other things. You'll be plenty fine with the higher power amps.
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post #4204 of 4691 Old 12-04-2018, 09:48 AM
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Pssttt.....
I heard some redneck in Texas just bought three M2's. Hopefully, the pedigree of said owner doesn't impact market value or product reputation
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post #4205 of 4691 Old 12-04-2018, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Pssttt.....
I heard some redneck in Texas just bought three M2's. Hopefully, the pedigree of said owner doesn't impact market value or product reputation
Atta boy!
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post #4206 of 4691 Old 12-04-2018, 10:09 AM
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Holy crap Chris!
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post #4207 of 4691 Old 12-04-2018, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Pssttt.....
I heard some redneck in Texas just bought three M2's. Hopefully, the pedigree of said owner doesn't impact market value or product reputation
Now you're talkin! YeeHaa!!
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post #4208 of 4691 Old 12-04-2018, 01:49 PM
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Pssttt.....
I heard some redneck in Texas just bought three M2's. Hopefully, the pedigree of said owner doesn't impact market value or product reputation
What did you decide to power them with?
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post #4209 of 4691 Old 12-04-2018, 02:09 PM
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I will be using 4x600n and 2x600n for M2 and use the 4x300n for Atmos 705's. 708s are powered.
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post #4210 of 4691 Old 12-04-2018, 02:19 PM
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Power as in plug in? Bro, after buying three of them.....here I am setting up Dirac Live and running measurements on my new gems.
Whaaat?? That is the quickest conversion from "I'm buying x speaker" post to ownership I've seen in some time. Bravo!

I hope you like them!
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post #4211 of 4691 Old 12-05-2018, 04:47 PM
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I hope you like them!
Man, I sure hope so. I am so over the speaker merry-go-round that has plagued me the last three years. The terrible and addictive habit of changing every so often is more expensive than just biting the bullet and paying for "the" speaker that continues to be in the back of your mind that you catch yourself always "wondering" about. I think each person has that "dream" speaker. Mine was the M2. I kept finding myself reading reviews from multiple forums and always wondering......

I fell in love with JBL back in the early 90s with the XPL-200s, which were a Greg Timbers design. From that day forward, I was a fan. Probably to a fault, but I just wasn't interested in other brands. I tried some here and there, but kept coming back to JBL. Eventually, I progressed to the pro cinema line moving through the 3677 and 4722s, which really took my home theater to another level. I would have never tried pro cinema if it weren't for the nuts here on AVS. I made some great virtual friends over the past couple of years in the 4722 section. I learned a ton from those guys.

I am hoping this is the end of the journey. Granted, these are not Everest or audiophile costs, but this was a substantial spend (at least for me) for a hobby. Thankfully,@John Schuermann and @Rex Anderson gave me great pricing on the M2s. In addition, @adidino gave me excellent pricing on some 705i's. The 708s and amps I pieced together randomly from multiple sources.

If it weren't for used and B stock, I wouldn't/couldn't have done it. This was my max. Taking time and being frugal paid off. I have my dream system now. I am very excited to get it online. The JBLs combined with @dgage amazing Deep Sea Sound subs, this should be a winner.
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post #4212 of 4691 Old 12-05-2018, 04:53 PM
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Take your time to set them up properly and you will be in love.
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post #4213 of 4691 Old 12-05-2018, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Man, I sure hope so. I am so over the speaker merry-go-round that has plagued me the last three years. The terrible and addictive habit of changing every so often is more expensive than just biting the bullet and paying for "the" speaker that continues to be in the back of your mind that you catch yourself always "wondering" about. I think each person has that "dream" speaker. Mine was the M2. I kept finding myself reading reviews from multiple forums and always wondering......

I fell in love with JBL back in the early 90s with the XPL-200s, which were a Greg Timbers design. From that day forward, I was a fan. Probably to a fault, but I just wasn't interested in other brands. I tried some here and there, but kept coming back to JBL. Eventually, I progressed to the pro cinema line moving through the 3677 and 4722s, which really took my home theater to another level. I would have never tried pro cinema if it weren't for the nuts here on AVS. I made some great virtual friends over the past couple of years in the 4722 thread.

I am hoping the M2 is the pinnacle of my JBL journey. As much as I have enjoyed the journey, I also want this to be the end of the road. Granted, these are not Everest or audiophile costs, but this was a substantial spend (at least for me) for a hobby. Thankfully,@John Schuermann and @Rex Anderson gave me great pricing on the M2s. In addition, @adidino gave me excellent pricing on some 705i's. The 708s and amps I pieced together randomly from multiple sources.

If it weren't for used and B stock, I wouldn't/couldn't have done it. This was my max. Taking time and being frugal paid off. I have my dream system now. I am very excited to get it online. The JBLs combined with @dgage amazing subs, this should be a winner.
Epic man. It was the end for me, hopefully you too. Can't believe I've had them for 4 years now! I'm excited for you!

I thought you had them already based on your last post?? But this post sounds like maybe not?

Make sure you post back with your impressions!!
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post #4214 of 4691 Old 12-05-2018, 05:05 PM
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@Motion _labe Enjoy them! Glad I could help.
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post #4215 of 4691 Old 12-05-2018, 06:43 PM
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@Molon_Labe Wow, can't believe that went over my head! I am laughing now though, was a good one!
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post #4216 of 4691 Old 12-05-2018, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post

I fell in love with JBL back in the early 90s with the XPL-200s, which were a Greg Timbers design.

I am hoping this is the end of the journey. Granted, these are not Everest or audiophile costs, but this was a substantial spend (at least for me) for a hobby. Thankfully,@John Schuermann and @Rex Anderson gave me great pricing on the M2s.
Congratulations! Your patience has been rewarded.

I still have a pair of XPL200a speakers in a spare room. I also have some JBL PT800s. Both are Timbers product, but it's the Ti domes that really make me keep them. For the XPL, it's the proper forming and damping of the Ti mid and tweeter that make it a beautiful speaker to listen to. The PT 800s have those glorious inverted Ti domes! The limit for me on both is when they're asked to play really (unreasonably) loud—they lose their composure. That's not going to happen with the M2.

John S was instrumental in me getting the SDA4600 amps and my third M2 for very sweet deals, as well as the Lexicon RV-6, which is essentially functioning as a processor. John (and surely Rex, whom I've never dealt with) is a great resource and patient seller.

At the risk of hurting John's feelings (sorry, John) I wasn't convinced by the "shootout" results that the Revel Ultima2 Salon was a better choice. (I was not there.) This was despite my long-lasting love affair with Ti drivers. I'd heard the Salons on several occasions, even once at Kevin Voeck's house, and thought they were great, but IME, a properly implemented M2 is just the top!

It's true these are not Everest or audiophile costs. These are just one of the greatest price to performance investments you can make, and you could pay more and get a lot less. Smart!

Good luck setting them up
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post #4217 of 4691 Old 12-06-2018, 07:51 PM
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Bravissimo!
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post #4218 of 4691 Old 12-07-2018, 02:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
If it weren't for used and B stock, I wouldn't/couldn't have done it. This was my max. Taking time and being frugal paid off. I have my dream system now. I am very excited to get it online. The JBLs combined with @dgage amazing Deep Sea Sound subs, this should be a winner.
That sounds like a dream setup, well done! I would be very interested to hear your thoughts/impressions on where to put the crossover for your DSS subwoofer, which if I remember correctly from other threads is a 24 inch beast. Is it the typical 80Hz one or you let the M2s play lower?

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post #4219 of 4691 Old 12-07-2018, 03:18 AM
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Originally Posted by ioanni View Post
That sounds like a dream setup, well done! I would be very interested to hear your thoughts/impressions on where to put the crossover for your DSS subwoofer, which if I remember correctly from other threads is a 24 inch beast. Is it the typical 80Hz one or you let the M2s play lower?
I crossed my 4722's between 40hz and 50hz. To my ears that sounded best. I will probably do the same with the M2's unless directed otherwise by the community.
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@Molon_Labe

Bravissimo!
Thanks man. I haven't seen you around in awhile. What have you been up to?

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post #4220 of 4691 Old 12-07-2018, 03:35 AM
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I crossed my 4722's between 40hz and 50hz. To my ears that sounded best. I will probably do the same with the M2's unless directed otherwise by the community.

Thanks man. I haven't seen you around in awhile. What have you been up to?
You should measure your M2s full range in all listening positions and determine their response. The reason for 80hz crossover is mainly to be able to correct acoustical issues through the use of multiple subwoofers. I cross all my M2s at 80hz in my theater. This is how JBL does it when setting up their Synthesis systems as well.
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post #4221 of 4691 Old 12-07-2018, 04:59 AM
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You should measure your M2s full range in all listening positions and determine their response. The reason for 80hz crossover is mainly to be able to correct acoustical issues through the use of multiple subwoofers. I cross all my M2s at 80hz in my theater. This is how JBL does it when setting up their Synthesis systems as well.

Good advice and exactly what I was going to suggest. Using an 80Hz crossover point in a bass managed system with multiple subs also allows the M2's to not need as much power to drive the woofers. You gain amp headroom.
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post #4222 of 4691 Old 12-07-2018, 05:11 AM
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Why am I concerned with headroom with a speaker than can play reference at 24ft when I am at 13ft? Obviously, I am not a speaker guru like many here, but I am at a loss why I would need to cross an M2 at 80hz?

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post #4223 of 4691 Old 12-07-2018, 05:21 AM
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Why am I concerned with headroom with a speaker than can play reference at 24ft when I am at 13ft? Obviously, I am not a speaker guru like many here, but I am at a loss why I would need to cross an M2 at 80hz?
Here is your answer: https://www.harman.com/sites/default...multsubs_0.pdf

A single speaker in a single position has issues in the bass region (and the issues are different in each seat). No EQ can fix this - but multiple subwoofers positioned correctly _can_ fix this. So it is not about headroom - it is about accuracy. But as I said, maybe there are no issues in your room, your seats and your speaker positioning. It needs analysis to determine what to do. No "one size fits it all" unfortunately.

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post #4224 of 4691 Old 12-07-2018, 05:25 AM
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Here is your answer: https://www.harman.com/sites/default...multsubs_0.pdf

A single speaker in a single position has issues in the bass region (and the issues are different in each seat). No EQ can fix this - but multiple subwoofers positioned correctly _can_ fix this. So it is not about headroom - it is about accuracy. But as I said, maybe there are no issues in your room, your seats and your speaker positioning. It needs analysis to determine what to do. No "one size fits it all" unfortunately.
I understand this, but why wouldn't I want to distribute my mid-bass to the M2s and the subs. Now I have even more room coverage. What am I missing?

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post #4225 of 4691 Old 12-07-2018, 05:29 AM
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Crossovers should not be set based on the capability of the speaker unless the speaker is not capable like small speakers which might require a higher crossover. They should be set based on room acoustics and the best location for bass frequencies is rarely if ever the best location for midrange and high frequencies. Having a sub allows one to get the bass right by placing it where it will be best in a given room and the speakers an be placed where they are optimal. Having two or more subs allows us to get the bass right in multiple seating locations, which is often impossible with one sub, proper placement is needed again. Getting more headroom and less distortion is a side benefit of crossing over higher than the speaker's low frequency limit but not the main reason it should be done.
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post #4226 of 4691 Old 12-07-2018, 05:57 AM
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Agreed, I understand. I currently have 4 subs that have been configured to allow better seat to seat bass response within the room. I am not understanding why the 80hz x-over is the spoken gospel when one has capable mains If I have four subs spreading out the 15hz+ why would I not want 3 other devices helping spread out the 40hz to 80hz. Is not 7 devices handling mid-bass better than just 4 subs?
I think in the case of a 40Hz crossover for your 3 devices, the 40Hz-80Hz content will only be sent to these 3 and not the subwoofers. So eventually you will have 3 out of 7 devices playing that content rather than all 7. Of course the subwoofers will play that content from the rest of your surround/Atmos speakers in case they don't have that low a crossover.

Unless you:
a) either configure them as full range and have an option in your Pre-Pro to direct bass to LFE+Main, but then your will have frequencies lower than 40Hz in your 3 mains or
b) keep the crossover at 80 Hz but then use an external additional crossover/mixer to redirect the subwoofer (and perhaps surround speakers) 40-80Hz content output back to your 3 LCR, like I remember reading people doing with their JTR Noesis 215RT in that thread, which is also a very bass-capable speaker. I do not know how easy or possible it is to do that within the BSS/Crowns
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post #4227 of 4691 Old 12-07-2018, 05:58 AM
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Agreed, I understand. I currently have 4 subs that have been configured to allow better seat to seat bass response within the room. I am not understanding why the 80hz x-over is the spoken gospel when one has capable mains If I have four subs spreading out the 15hz+ why would I not want 3 other devices helping spread out the 40hz to 80hz. Is not 7 devices handling mid-bass better than just 4 subs?
I might not be understanding you 100%... But for the optimization to work, all subs (or drivers) need to play the same signal. So if you are choosing to send all bass to both M2s and subs, then what you are saying could make sense.

The calibration and signal routing will be more complex though. I can't imagine that you can do this without having a BSS/QSC unit.
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post #4228 of 4691 Old 12-07-2018, 06:07 AM
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I might not be understanding you 100%... But for the optimization to work, all subs (or drivers) need to play the same signal. So if you are choosing to send all bass to both M2s and subs, then what you are saying could make sense.

The calibration and signal routing will be more complex though. I can't imagine that you can do this without having a BSS/QSC unit.
I use the MiniDSP 2x4 balanced.
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I think in the case of a 40Hz crossover for your 3 devices, the 40Hz-80Hz content will only be sent to these 3 and not the subwoofers. So eventually you will have 3 out of 7 devices playing that content rather than all 7. Of course the subwoofers will play that content from the rest of your surround/Atmos speakers in case they don't have that low a crossover.

Unless you:
a) either configure them as full range and have an option in your Pre-Pro to direct bass to LFE+Main, but then your will have frequencies lower than 40Hz in your 3 mains or
b) keep the crossover at 80 Hz but then use an external additional crossover/mixer to redirect the subwoofer (and perhaps surround speakers) 40-80Hz content output back to your 3 LCR, like I remember reading people doing with their JTR Noesis 215RT in that thread, which is also a very bass-capable speaker
The NAD 777v3 has the ability to do "double" bass. I guess that is what I forgot to mention. What is wrong with you guys, you can't follow my logic with half the information With the M2 being ported, I figured the frequencies below port tune would just roll off without issue. Maybe this could be bad... I am fine with following the group on this. I am far from an expert and probably more akin to "enough knowledge to be dangerous".
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Last edited by Molon_Labe; 12-07-2018 at 06:12 AM.
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post #4229 of 4691 Old 12-07-2018, 06:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Agreed, I understand. I currently have 4 subs that have been configured to allow better seat to seat bass response within the room. I am not understanding why the 80hz x-over is the spoken gospel when one has capable mains If I have four subs spreading out the 15hz+ why would I not want 3 other devices helping spread out the 40hz to 80hz. Is not 7 devices handling mid-bass better than just 4 subs?
In theory Yes. However they need to be placed well and all are playing the same material. There are two big rubs. it is not just about having more subs or speakers that can play the bass, it is about placement. Also, they all have to be playing the same thing. One will get a different bass response if bass is coming than the right speaker, left speaker, center speaker or combination of any of those. So all material below the crossover is sent to the subs so the bass is consistent and they are all getting the same signal. I don't know of any processors that takes the bass from one speaker and sends it to the other speakers so the bass comes from all of them.

A full range system can work in VERY large areas where you no longer deal with room modes. Other acoustic problems come into play with large spaces. Outside would be a good area for a full range system. But, even in those situations a lot more subwoofage (technical term) is needed to fill large areas and it might be better to offload the work to subwoofers that are much more capable. I think people feel if they are not running their speakers to their full capability they a missing out, in reality they are not.
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post #4230 of 4691 Old 12-07-2018, 06:22 AM
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BTW, 80hz is not gospel but just happens to work for a lot of situations so it is usually the starting point. Sometimes moving the crossover 5-20hz can helps solve some problems. Most of the time I find that crossover works best in the 80-100hz range, rarely lower than 80hz. So 80hz is usually (not always) the lowest one can use and still make everything come together nicely.
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