JBL 'M2' Master Reference Monitor - Page 149 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4441 of 4910 Old 01-31-2019, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post
All good information. Thanks!

Hiss is my biggest concern here. Both amp options will drive the speakers.

Anyone notice inordinate hiss with their M2s?
When my girlfriend sees them, there's an audible hiss.

What I can afford, when I can afford it...
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post #4442 of 4910 Old 01-31-2019, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post
All good information. Thanks!

Hiss is my biggest concern here. Both amp options will drive the speakers.

Anyone notice inordinate hiss with their M2s?
I would say no, but my room is far from what yours will be with sound control.
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post #4443 of 4910 Old 01-31-2019, 03:07 PM
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Follow up from John re: his recent calibration.

"I used the standard MiniDSP 2x4 ($99) to do what I describe below, but need to upgrade to the MiniDSP HD to put in the SFM values. I hope to do that next week. Here is a description of what I did to get everything to blend well using Dirac in the Lexicon MC-10.

I used the MiniDSP to match all the subs in volume and to manipulate phase so I had the flattest response at the MLP. It was easy to do the tweaking in the MiniDSP in terms of volume, mute, and phase vs. running around the room and adjusting everything. Problem I was having was that my two JBL S2S-EX subs (with SDA4600 amp) were being run out of the Lexicon MC10’s balanced outs and my two JBL HTPS400 subs were being run via the RCA out (Y’d). The Lexicon outputs the same signal to both at the same time, but I could not get them to match in volume while running Dirac. After I ran Dirac it always ended up sounding bass anemic and the smaller HTPS400 subs were playing louder than the S2S-EX subs (which would explain the reduced output and extension). With the MiniDSP, I came out of the single RCA sub output and split that out four ways via RCA – two to my HTPS400 subs and two via an RCA to Phoenix adapter to the SDA Synthesis amp that powered the S2S-EXs. The MiniDSP software allowed me to properly match the subs volume and adjust phase at the MLP while measuring the response and output with REW (and my ears). I didn’t do any filtering in the MiniDSP. The guys at Harman suggested, until I do SFM (hopefully next week), it’s best to level match the subs and do all EQ in Dirac. Doing EQ in the subs before using Dirac could stress the subs, especially if applying any boost. The other thing they said to not do, was EQ the subs individually, they should only be EQ’d as a system, all run together (after level and phase matching). They suggested leaving everything mono and level matched before running room correction. Once I have the right numbers from SFM, I will be entering the properly delays and levels. Now I have very flat bass at the MLP. Once I have SFM, I will have much better seat to seat consistency. It’s fairly consistent seat to seat now, but I know SFM will make it much better."

Please direct question to me so John does not have to field multiple PM's. He is very busy and I'm trying to help him minimize the time he dedicates to the AVS Forum. I'm happy to help in any way I can!
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post #4444 of 4910 Old 01-31-2019, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
Once I have the right numbers from SFM, I will be entering the properly delays and levels. Now I have very flat bass at the MLP. Once I have SFM, I will have much better seat to seat consistency. It’s fairly consistent seat to seat now, but I know SFM will make it much better."

Please direct question to me so John does not have to field multiple PM's. He is very busy and I'm trying to help him minimize the time he dedicates to the AVS Forum. I'm happy to help in any way I can!
This is the first I've heard of using SFM to provide information to DSP devices not made by Harman. For per-sub delay and attenuation, there is no problem. But SFM uses one per-sub PEQ to reduce seat-to-seat frequency response variation. One of the parameters of the PEQ is "Q". I've found, through user experience with MSO, that different DSP vendors use different definitions of the "Q" parameter, and the definition used can even vary between different products of a given vendor (Behringer iNuke and DCX2496 use different definitions). I wrote an article about the known "Q" conventions and the math behind them. If SFM makes a certain assumption about the definition of PEQ "Q" and they want to provide data for other hardware, the conventions used by SFM and by the target vendor need to be known and taken into account in the information provided to the end user.

Edit: I should add that if SFM now provides miniDSP-compatible text files of biquad coefficients for the needed filters, the concerns about the definition of "Q" for PEQ filters go away. But I've not heard of such an announcement from Harman that they now do this. This would seem to be a bad thing for their DSP business if they did so.

Last edited by andyc56; 01-31-2019 at 07:19 PM.
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post #4445 of 4910 Old 01-31-2019, 08:04 PM
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I can't find a post to point to at the moment but Harman SFM using a mini-dsp has been mentioned since late summer last year as a product in the works. It seems it will only be available as a service for those with the latest round of Arcam Lexicon products. AFAICT, it hasn't been stated whether Dirac's new bass module would be available at Tier 1 for Lexicon owners even though there are two independently adjustable subwoofer outputs. If it's the case that it will not be available for Lexicon owners with multiple subs, then the mini-dsp/SFM route may be the closest to a turnkey solution for multi-sub management.
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post #4446 of 4910 Old 02-01-2019, 04:56 AM
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When the Monprice unit hits in the fall, it is going to be a big disruption to these car priced processors. A product with 16 channels with Dirac Live for 1/5 of the price. I am sure the brand elitists will stay with Synthesis because price is still equated with superiority. I am still shocked people buy the JBL subs when there are vastly superior offerings for less.
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post #4447 of 4910 Old 02-01-2019, 08:26 AM
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I think this is great capability via the minidsp. I have the open-drc an right now and wonder if they would do SFM for it as well? Currently my subs setup is pretty whack. Skhorn running 100hz down to ~34hz, 4 sealed 18's running from there down along with the two nearfield 18's as well. It works pretty good but don't think SFM would approve of splitting up the passband like that. I kinda of just want to run everything all out, just with a HP on the skhorn at around 20hz or so and see what shakes out but running ported and sealed over the same passband is an extremely finicky way of handling things...

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post #4448 of 4910 Old 02-02-2019, 02:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
It'd be pretty much the same with any speaker. It's a narrow stage.
Thanks.

Will there be any issues if the front left and right speakers are *almost* tucked into the corners (say roughly 3-4 inches from the back wall and 7-8 inches from the side wall)? This is with 30" spacing between the M2s instead of the 22" of my first post.

Basically, what's better? 22" spacing between the M2s with 3-4" from the back wall and 17-18" from the side wall or 30" spacing between the M2s with 3-4" from the back wall and 7-8" from the side wall?

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post #4449 of 4910 Old 02-04-2019, 03:39 PM
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Hey,

Any updates? Were you able to try out the M2s? If yes, any thoughts on how they compare to your 708Ps?
Sorry for the wait was on vacation.

No updates on the M2, there sitting in the closet for now. Setting them up is going to require some help to run wires and what not. The 708ps are fantastic though so I don’t feel the pressure to get rolling on it just yet. Probably around April I’ll buy 6 705s for heights and just do everything then. BTW If anyone has ceiling mount suggestions for the 705s please let me know.
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post #4450 of 4910 Old 02-04-2019, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by forin View Post
Sorry for the wait was on vacation.

No updates on the M2, there sitting in the closet for now. Setting them up is going to require some help to run wires and what not. The 708ps are fantastic though so I don’t feel the pressure to get rolling on it just yet. Probably around April I’ll buy 6 705s for heights and just do everything then. BTW If anyone has ceiling mount suggestions for the 705s please let me know.

I believe the 705's use the JBL Uniball and there are versions of that for ceiling mount.
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post #4451 of 4910 Old 02-04-2019, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by forin View Post
Sorry for the wait was on vacation.

No updates on the M2, there sitting in the closet for now. Setting them up is going to require some help to run wires and what not. The 708ps are fantastic though so I don’t feel the pressure to get rolling on it just yet. Probably around April I’ll buy 6 705s for heights and just do everything then. BTW If anyone has ceiling mount suggestions for the 705s please let me know.
Man, if everyone keeps buying M2's and putting them in storage, this is going to be a boring thread .
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post #4452 of 4910 Old 02-04-2019, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forin View Post
Sorry for the wait was on vacation.

No updates on the M2, there sitting in the closet for now. Setting them up is going to require some help to run wires and what not. The 708ps are fantastic though so I don’t feel the pressure to get rolling on it just yet. Probably around April I’ll buy 6 705s for heights and just do everything then. BTW If anyone has ceiling mount suggestions for the 705s please let me know.
The official JBL ceiling mounts for the 705s are adapt tech multi mount mm-008-cm.
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post #4453 of 4910 Old 02-04-2019, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
I believe the 705's use the JBL Uniball and there are versions of that for ceiling mount.
Nope. A pair of M6 screws spaced 2.7in apart on the top, bottom, and two pairs on the rear of the 705i.

Gooddoc once recommended Peavy versamounts (70s for 708s and 35s for 705i) along with pics using them in his room. That led me to try them with my atmos heights and I'd have no problem recommending them for others to use. They are solid.
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post #4454 of 4910 Old 02-05-2019, 05:58 AM
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Nope. A pair of M6 screws spaced 2.7in apart on the top, bottom, and two pairs on the rear of the 705i.

Gooddoc once recommended Peavy versamounts (70s for 708s and 35s for 705i) along with pics using them in his room. That led me to try them with my atmos heights and I'd have no problem recommending them for others to use. They are solid.

Thanks. I realized when I woke up this morning what I posted last night was incorrect.
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@Floyd Toole - Are there any issues with mounting the M2 upside down? The LF driver will be above ear level, but I won't have anything in the audio path i.e. screen frame. Can the top of the speaker support the weight? There isn't alot of cabinet material above the wave-guide.
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Home Theater: JBL M2 & SUB18 powered by Crown and BSS.
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post #4456 of 4910 Old 02-05-2019, 11:47 AM
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@Floyd Toole - Are there any issues with mounting the M2 upside down? The LF driver will be above ear level, but I won't have anything in the audio path i.e. screen frame. Can the top of the speaker support the weight? There isn't alot of cabinet material above the wave-guide.
I debated about inverted M2s vs. inverted Salon2s. The Revels won because of visual aesthetics. Both can play more than adequately loud - cinema level. I would support the M2s from the rear portion of the cabinet, but sitting on a shelf would probably work. They should sound just fine - you will localize the sound to the horn.
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Originally Posted by 12B4A View Post
Nope. A pair of M6 screws spaced 2.7in apart on the top, bottom, and two pairs on the rear of the 705i.

Gooddoc once recommended Peavy versamounts (70s for 708s and 35s for 705i) along with pics using them in his room. That led me to try them with my atmos heights and I'd have no problem recommending them for others to use. They are solid.
Awesome, thank you sir!
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post #4458 of 4910 Old 02-05-2019, 12:16 PM
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Those look suspended and not sitting on the top of the speaker. My concern is the weight being supported by the thinnest part of the cabinet. Maybe its an unfounded worry. I think I remember seeing a picture that showed Dr Toole having his Revels upside down.

@COACH2369 - Could you perceive any differences with your LF drivers being above ear level when you had your 4722 center inverted?
I wouldn't worry about it in the least. Flip them and enjoy. There is nothing "thin" about any part of that cabinet.
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post #4459 of 4910 Old 02-05-2019, 12:18 PM
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I wouldn't worry about it in the least. Flip them and enjoy. There is nothing "thin" about any part of that cabinet.
Thank you for confirming. I was trying to avoid unpacking them until I was ready to set them. Finishing up the drywall repairs this week and should start building the screen stand next week.
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post #4460 of 4910 Old 02-05-2019, 01:27 PM
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Forgive my ignorance, but what do you mean by this? The sound will appear to emanate from the horn regardless of their orientation i.e. it doesn't matter if the LF driver is higher or I will get localization (a negative) if they are upside down?
Humans tend to focus on high frequencies, and especially high frequency transients. This happens in real life, as in concert halls where there is colossal confusion of direct and reflected sounds. In the inverted Salon2s I localize to the tweeter/midrange. You will localize to the horn. It matters not that the system is inverted, except that the floor bounce is gone - good riddance????
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post #4461 of 4910 Old 02-05-2019, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Those look suspended and not sitting on the top of the speaker. My concern is the weight being supported by the thinnest part of the cabinet. Maybe its an unfounded worry. I think I remember seeing a picture that showed Dr Toole having his Revels upside down.

@COACH2369 - Could you perceive any differences with your LF drivers being above ear level when you had your 4722 center inverted?
No, I couldn't tell any difference by having it inverted. In fact, I have flipped my center 4429 to keep it at ear level and in line with my L and R speaker.
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post #4462 of 4910 Old 02-05-2019, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
You will localize to the horn. It matters not that the system is inverted, except that the floor bounce is gone - good riddance????
That just increases the floor bounce delay, not get rid of it, no? You just change the frequency of the modes and nulls from the floor and ceiling...
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post #4463 of 4910 Old 02-05-2019, 04:13 PM
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That just increases the floor bounce delay, not get rid of it, no? You just change the frequency of the modes and nulls from the floor and ceiling...
I know, I know. I was trying to be cute. But additional delay is additional attenuation.
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I know, I know. I was trying to be cute. But additional delay is additional attenuation.
Gotta be careful, some people take everything you say as gospel
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post #4465 of 4910 Old 02-06-2019, 12:07 PM
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Anyone use Powersoft on M2? Wondering if anyone has an Armonia file already built. My BSS blew up again. Might sell it along with the Emotiva XPR2's and just go to a platform I likje more.

thanks
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...except that the floor bounce is gone - good riddance????
Not in my experience. Something doesn't sound right when the floor bounce is absorbed. Maybe I'm just used to it.

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post #4467 of 4910 Old 02-06-2019, 02:31 PM
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There's still a floor bounce when you invert a speaker however the frequency it causes an "Allison dip" at will differ because the reflection's travel time has changed. [Plus let's not forget there are ceiling and wall reflections to contend with.]



There are on-line calculators and spreadsheets which let's one determine the frequencies. Not that I have used them.

https://david-janszen.squarespace.com/

As with all comb filtering effects the dip is not as prominent as one might calculate, as is discussed at the link, because we aren't hearing just the direct wave, nor just the direct wave plus single room boundary reflections: we are hearing a scrambled sound of many surface reflections, some banking off more than one room boundary before it reaches the ear. [Although each subsequent reflection is attenuated compared to earlier ones.]
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Originally Posted by nickmoon View Post
Anyone use Powersoft on M2? Wondering if anyone has an Armonia file already built. My BSS blew up again. Might sell it along with the Emotiva XPR2's and just go to a platform I likje more.

thanks
Nick
How does one blow up the BSS? Unhook the fan? Cause that's what I was planning when I briefly had one I couldn't figure out.
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How does one blow up the BSS? Unhook the fan? Cause that's what I was planning when I briefly had one I couldn't figure out.


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post #4470 of 4910 Old 02-06-2019, 07:54 PM
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Not in my experience. Something doesn't sound right when the floor bounce is absorbed. Maybe I'm just used to it.
Check out Section 4.7.5 "Floor Reflections, a Special Case". You are not alone; it may be a human trait.
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