JBL 'M2' Master Reference Monitor - Page 150 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4471 of 4608 Old 03-19-2019, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by nickmoon View Post
The power supplies are the weak link.. Turns out it didn’t pop this time. The power strip did or something connected to it. Took out two Monster AVS2000’s in the process


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That's very odd. I use a Zero Surge unit on all of my equipment and haven't had any issues with my BSS or anything else.
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post #4472 of 4608 Old 03-26-2019, 08:43 AM
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Not clear on your setup and interconnect issues. I make (or have made) custom length RCA to XLR cables using Mogami 2549 to avoid adapters if I have to.


Redco does a fine job if you don't want to make cables.
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post #4473 of 4608 Old 03-26-2019, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
How many of you are only EQ'ing below Schroeder? My current NAD is unbalanced only, and I am not liking the idea of having to use RCA to XLR to Phoenix. In fact, all of my speakers and subs are XLR now. I bought my NAD prior to getting the JBL M2 and 7 series, so it wasn't an issue at the time but now here we are. I really miss the fit, finish, and rock solid performance that my old Marantz 8802a provided. However, Audyssey made a mess of dialog and provided a "wet blanket" effect with my previous 4722s. I am thinking of going back to the 8805 with the new app and just limiting correction to 200hz and taking advantage of the PEQ with the JBLs if needed. Thoughts?
I have XLR to all my Crown amps, but still using RCA to XLR wires for subs due to MiniDSP HD.

The wires on monoprice that are RCA one end and XLR the other have been great.

Having said that, I would rather have all XLR if I can find a solution that allows greater than 7 ms delay for subs.
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post #4474 of 4608 Old 03-26-2019, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
How many of you are only EQ'ing below Schroeder? My current NAD is unbalanced only, and I am not liking the idea of having to use RCA to XLR to Phoenix. In fact, all of my speakers and subs are XLR now. I bought my NAD prior to getting the JBL M2 and 7 series, so it wasn't an issue at the time but now here we are. I really miss the fit, finish, and rock solid performance that my old Marantz 8802a provided. However, Audyssey made a mess of dialog and provided a "wet blanket" effect with my previous 4722s. I am thinking of going back to the 8805 with the new app and just limiting correction to 200hz and taking advantage of the PEQ with the JBLs if needed. Thoughts?
Why do you need RCA -> XLR -> Phoenix? As others have mentioned, using RCA -> XLR should be fine. But I completely understand your OCD - for LCR+subs I want balanced interconnects everywhere.

Regarding EQ: My experience with Audyssey has been dissapointing in the entire frequency range (also below 200hz). As a matter of fact, I started out with 4722 as you did and an Audyssey pro kit. Never got it to sound good and went for manual parametric EQ with REW. Can the 8805 do parametric EQ on each channel? Then that would be my recommendation to you.

I'm using full-range EQ on my M2s. I am getting the best result by EQ'ing up to around 800hz and a single shelf filter at ~8khz to do a slight roll-off in the high frequencies. JBL also EQ to 800hz in their ARCOS calibrations.

The M2s do behave very well in-room - see my front right filters in the attached image for example.
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Home Theater: JBL M2 & SUB18 powered by Crown and BSS.

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post #4475 of 4608 Old 03-26-2019, 11:11 AM
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I have worked in a heck of a lot of recording studios and just use whatever cables and connectors necessary to get the job done. I never hesitated to make anything I needed but did prefer to not kludge together adapters.


IMO, Phoenix connectors are fine as long as the wires are tight in them. It's just another connector, make sure it's plugged in well and check them now and then. Never a bad idea to unplug and plug things back in to keep audio connections clean.
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post #4476 of 4608 Old 03-26-2019, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
The RCA to XlR adapters worked fine with my subs and the 7 series (powered), but I wasn't to thrilled about going to Phoenix. I have four subs and eleven speakers all doing RCA to XLR. Maybe I am OCD, but it is just a cable mess that I would like to simplify. Are you using full range room correction on your M2s?
I actually stopped using any RC in Anthem.
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post #4477 of 4608 Old 03-26-2019, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
The DCI amps only have Phoenix blocks for input.

I never liked Audyssey but I never had the ability to limit the frequency response. How did you limit to only under 200hz? I thought the Pro kit still EQ'd the entire range. Not sure about the parametric EQ but I don't think so.
I didn't have the ability to limit to only do EQ below 200hz. But the bass sucked after calibration which, to me, indicates that Audyssey did not do a good job.

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post #4478 of 4608 Old 03-26-2019, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Funny how we have different ears and rooms because I thought Dirac's bass was anemic compared to Audyssey. I am looking at the NAD M17 as well but it is substantially more than what I can get the 8805 for. It would also be B stock and still a good bit more.
I'm not the only one: http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/201...etric-eq-html/
But yes, rooms are different - so all I can tell about are my own experiences.

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post #4479 of 4608 Old 03-26-2019, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
What AVR/AVP are you using? I think I recall you having the NAD M17. If so, you getting any of the hdmi sync or hiss issues being reported in that thread?
I'm using the Yamaha CX-A5100 (as a pure decoder). All EQ, DSP etc is done in a BSS Soundweb.

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post #4480 of 4608 Old 03-26-2019, 04:51 PM
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As a point of reference, the JBL Synthesis traditional line ups with the SDP-5, SDP-25, and SDP-40 all used StraightWire cables that were RCA to Phoenix to connect to the SDEC-3000, SDEC-4000, and SDEC-4500. Then it was Phoenix back to RCA cables to connect to the Synthesis amps.

If you went from the SDEC-xxxx to an amp that had XLR, then you could hit all three types of connectors.

If you picked up the SDP-40HD, then you could go XLR to Phoenix to the SDEC then Phoenix back to XLR to the amp.

At first it all seems silly and inconsistent, but the proof is in the pudding, and the complete Synthesis lineup with a JBL (extra cost) calibration in a treated room is a delicious pudding indeed!

(I'm getting close to seeing/hearing how the Lex/SDI/M2 pudding "tastes," forsaking SDEC and only using DiracLive.)
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post #4481 of 4608 Old 03-26-2019, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
How many of you are only EQ'ing below Schroeder? My current NAD is unbalanced only, and I am not liking the idea of having to use RCA to XLR to Phoenix.

What do you need the XLR for? Is there a processor before your amps?

You can just go RCA to Phoenix.

The Marantz is fine. It is nothing special in terms of performance, but should be good enough.

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post #4482 of 4608 Old 03-26-2019, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
You know, you could just cut up a generic RCA cable and use one of the phoenix ends... however it's best to make your own using a 3 wire cable instead of a 2 wire... this way you can have the shield connected on the balanced side and floating on the rca side.
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post #4483 of 4608 Old 03-26-2019, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post

I don’t see the spacing listed. There are several sizes of terminal. Better to hack up a cheap RCA you already have.

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708p's and subs.

Ah, so not in line to the same speaker. Basically you have all RCA outs and different types of balanced ins in different places in the room. I’m not seeing where that’s a problem. I’d hack up RCA cables for the M2 amp, and RCA-XLR adapters at the AVR and XLR cables for the longer runs.

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post #4484 of 4608 Old 03-26-2019, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post
I don’t see the spacing listed. There are several sizes of terminal. Better to hack up a cheap RCA you already have.

Ah, so not in line to the same speaker. Basically you have all RCA outs and different types of balanced ins in different places in the room. I’m not seeing where that’s a problem. I’d hack up RCA cables for the M2 amp, and RCA-XLR adapters at the AVR and XLR cables for the longer runs.

Yeah, I am going to go ahead and keep the NAD 777v3 and just run the adapters.
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post #4485 of 4608 Old 03-27-2019, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
How many of you are only EQ'ing below Schroeder? My current NAD is unbalanced only, and I am not liking the idea of having to use RCA to XLR to Phoenix. In fact, all of my speakers and subs are XLR now. I bought my NAD prior to getting the JBL M2 and 7 series, so it wasn't an issue at the time but now here we are. I really miss the fit, finish, and rock solid performance that my old Marantz 8802a provided. However, Audyssey made a mess of dialog and provided a "wet blanket" effect with my previous 4722s. I am thinking of going back to the 8805 with the new app and just limiting correction to 200hz and taking advantage of the PEQ with the JBLs if needed. Thoughts?
I was only eqin below well, 500hz on my old anthem. I switched from the 7704 marantz which had the app and I tried it there too. Anthem was a drastic step up in RC, I would NEVER go back to audyssey to be honest. Even with the app. THEN I moved to the lex mc10 with dirac and am in love. As you know, I run the 4367's but only with dirac for the first time am I running full band RC and liking it. FWIW there is very little being done to my response above schroeder anyways, but I digress...

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Originally Posted by Jsin_N View Post
I have XLR to all my Crown amps, but still using RCA to XLR wires for subs due to MiniDSP HD.

The wires on monoprice that are RCA one end and XLR the other have been great.

Having said that, I would rather have all XLR if I can find a solution that allows greater than 7 ms delay for subs.
If you aren't eqing below about 15hz, the DBX driverack pa2 is a great option...
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post #4486 of 4608 Old 03-27-2019, 07:29 AM
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The Lexicon MC-10 is at the top of my list for updates when I get my system going again.
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post #4487 of 4608 Old 03-27-2019, 09:54 AM
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Baller.... I am covetous. If I had your money, I would burn mine
What is street price on this? Isn't this rebadged Arcam?
Are you keeping your M2's now?
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post #4488 of 4608 Old 03-27-2019, 10:03 AM
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I was only eqin below well, 500hz on my old anthem. I switched from the 7704 marantz which had the app and I tried it there too. Anthem was a drastic step up in RC, I would NEVER go back to audyssey to be honest. Even with the app. THEN I moved to the lex mc10 with dirac and am in love. As you know, I run the 4367's but only with dirac for the first time am I running full band RC and liking it. FWIW there is very little being done to my response above schroeder anyways, but I digress...



If you aren't eqing below about 15hz, the DBX driverack pa2 is a great option...
How much does one of these usually go for?

How do the filters compare to MiniDSP and user options? If I'm using MSO, is it one to one?

Pretty sure the MSO creator has me on block or is ignoring me, so I have to ask before I buy something like this. MiniDSP is easy to use. Plus, if I ever go that route with a 75, is supported by Harman now apparently for SFM2.
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post #4489 of 4608 Old 03-27-2019, 10:07 AM
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Are you keeping your M2's now?
Yes - we are keeping the theater/game room.
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post #4490 of 4608 Old 03-27-2019, 11:37 AM
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Baller.... I am covetous. If I had your money, I would burn mine
What is street price on this? Isn't this rebadged Arcam?
Haha, boy I dunno about that... Good deals can be had on these units

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How much does one of these usually go for?

How do the filters compare to MiniDSP and user options? If I'm using MSO, is it one to one?

Pretty sure the MSO creator has me on block or is ignoring me, so I have to ask before I buy something like this. MiniDSP is easy to use. Plus, if I ever go that route with a 75, is supported by Harman now apparently for SFM2.
Dunno about MSO loading into them or not. I know Guitar Center has them for $350 or so? I've got one currently unopened but plan to mess around with it at some point. My mini was acting up and a scooped it to replace then the mini started behaving again so I haven't gotten around to it but perhaps I will soon enough... Filters and capabilities look amazing though, and all with talbet or phone control via BT.
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I've got a decently large room at 20'w x 30'L x 13'h and my first seat is 16' from the screen. I'm wondering if it is necessary (or just a good idea) to get the DCi 4/1250 and a DCi 2/1250 for an M2 LCR vs the SDA 4/600 x2. I'm not sure if the SDA is a better amp in any way or not and also whether the extra power is meaningful in my room.

Thanks!
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post #4492 of 4608 Old 03-28-2019, 06:26 AM
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I'm installing M2s this week. Using an SDA-4600 for each M2. I asked about the larger amps (1250W) and was told that sometimes there can be more hiss. I just can't recall where I saw this or whom may've told me. Good luck. My room is finally near completion SCL-4s on sides, SCL-3 atop.

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post #4493 of 4608 Old 03-28-2019, 06:44 AM
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I'm installing M2s this week. Using an SDA-4600 for each M2. I asked about the larger amps (1250W) and was told that sometimes there can be more hiss. I just can't recall where I saw this or whom may've told me. Good luck. My room is finally near completion SCL-4s on sides, SCL-3 atop.
I'm really curious how you compare the 75 vs the trinnov once you get up and running.
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post #4494 of 4608 Old 03-28-2019, 02:29 PM
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I'm installing M2s this week. Using an SDA-4600 for each M2. I asked about the larger amps (1250W) and was told that sometimes there can be more hiss. I just can't recall where I saw this or whom may've told me. Good luck. My room is finally near completion SCL-4s on sides, SCL-3 atop.
Certainly there exists hiss and noise with my Crowns -- fix is to adjust the gain and sensitivity. But, at some point, the sensitivity gets so high that most pre amps lack the output voltage to drive the amp to full power. At which point, why have a high power amp?

At times, I wish the other options (BSS London / SDP-75) were known / available to me when I bought my M2s. I probably wouldn't have bought the iTechs if they were. Oh well, I will never run out of power!
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post #4495 of 4608 Old 03-28-2019, 03:21 PM
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Certainly there exists hiss and noise with my Crowns -- fix is to adjust the gain and sensitivity. But, at some point, the sensitivity gets so high that most pre amps lack the output voltage to drive the amp to full power. At which point, why have a high power amp?
If I'm understanding you correctly you are saying you've tweaked it for, paraphrased: "I can blast my system for ear-deafening reproduction levels, making my audience envious of my system's shear power, yet it stays clean and undistorted".

I'm thinking maybe you could dial in a compromise of "my system plays as loud as I'd need it 99% of the time, but by dialing it back a bit and slightly reducing my maximum possible SPL I've successfully reduced the faint hiss I hear so the sound is more enjoyably during the quiet passages where I am more likely to hear that faint hiss".


. . . . Just an idea. YMMV.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".
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post #4496 of 4608 Old 03-29-2019, 02:36 PM
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If I'm understanding you correctly you are saying you've tweaked it for, paraphrased: "I can blast my system for ear-deafening reproduction levels, making my audience envious of my system's shear power, yet it stays clean and undistorted".

I'm thinking maybe you could dial in a compromise of "my system plays as loud as I'd need it 99% of the time, but by dialing it back a bit and slightly reducing my maximum possible SPL I've successfully reduced the faint hiss I hear so the sound is more enjoyably during the quiet passages where I am more likely to hear that faint hiss".


. . . . Just an idea. YMMV.
My point was more that if one sets the input sensitivity to reduce hiss in a way in which they can no longer drive the amplifier to full power, maybe it would have been better to just buy a lower power amp that was quieter to begin with.

To your comment, I've adjusted mine, and could probably tweak them a bit more if I were so inclined. I believe my pre-amp is powerful enough to drive the Crown at even its max sensitivity of 8v (I have it currently set to 4v). But, my previous pre had only 2v outputs (at least that was its spec) and in that case, I'd never have been able to take full advantage of the amplifier before seriously clipping the pre's outputs (of course, I didn't really need to).

This all comes back around to, "I should have just bought the BSS unit and less powerful, quieter, amps" -- I would have, had I known I could have back when I bought my set up.
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post #4497 of 4608 Old 03-29-2019, 04:09 PM
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My point was more that if one sets the input sensitivity to reduce hiss in a way in which they can no longer drive the amplifier to full power, maybe it would have been better to just buy a lower power amp that was quieter to begin with.

To your comment, I've adjusted mine, and could probably tweak them a bit more if I were so inclined. I believe my pre-amp is powerful enough to drive the Crown at even its max sensitivity of 8v (I have it currently set to 4v). But, my previous pre had only 2v outputs (at least that was its spec) and in that case, I'd never have been able to take full advantage of the amplifier before seriously clipping the pre's outputs (of course, I didn't really need to). This all comes back around to, "I should have just bought the BSS unit and less powerful, quieter, amps" -- I would have, had I known I could have back when I bought my set up.
I ran into gain structure issues when I was working as a live sound engineer. Venues provided systems and sometimes they were a mess. Big 4 way PA's, huge subs, racks of amps that were too many watts for the venues and shows I was mixing. I had to turn amps and crossover levels down to be able to run the console at optimal gain structure. It took time to get the systems tuned. More is not always better. A well designed system does not have too much power, it's a waste of money and a hassle to configure. Calculate how many watts you need to drive your speakers to the level you want to achieve in the venue whether it's a concert hall with a PA system or a home theater. In pro audio we know mixing consoles operate at 0 VU = + 4 dBu = 1.23 volts.

I ran into this issue a few times because I worked for many bands in a lot of different venues. I'd get there early and check the system by playing CD's of music and pink noise. First thing was to get proper levels on the console input channels and master outputs and deal with the EQ settings on the 31 band EQ's the last guy used. Most of the time I would zero everything out and start from scratch, work by ear and adjust gains on the crossover outputs. These were the days before room analysis tools (SMAART etc) though we did have a Crown RTA-2. Once I had good gain structure and spectral balance, I could fine tune things during sound check with the band and eliminate feedback problems. Tons of fun....

Last edited by Rex Anderson; 03-30-2019 at 05:45 AM.
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post #4498 of 4608 Old 04-02-2019, 07:35 AM
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I have a BSS and Crown amps for my M2s. I'm currently using CTs1200 amps with a S/N of 105db which is actually lower than BSS rating (108).

The BSS is still the weak link with regards to hiss. I would assume that this is the same for the itechs? That the DSP is what makes the hiss - not the amp.

On the BSS it is the input A/D which is the weak link.

But we are in the area of small improvements... So weak link might sound more negative than it should

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Home Theater: JBL M2 & SUB18 powered by Crown and BSS.
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post #4499 of 4608 Old 04-15-2019, 12:05 PM
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Getting a lot closer on finishing the room. The screen should be in this week, so I can build the framing for it. I am still waiting on the equipment rack and other various other nick-knack items to arrive. Once the rack arrives, I can get the amps mounted and listen to these monsters for the first time. They are a lot bigger (and heavier I might add) than they look in pictures. For reference, my room is 20' wide and those subs are 24" and dual 18". Obviously, as one can tell from the white speaker wire hanging down, I still need to mount the four 705i's to the ceiling.











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post #4500 of 4608 Old 04-15-2019, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Getting a lot closer on finishing the room. *snip*
OT but I'm in the market for a theater chair. Would you recommend what you got?

Sorta on topic: I can't remember if Valin or Goodoc had posted a 705 sitting on top of a M2 but it sure made the M2 give the impression that it could splay out your nostrils and cavitate your eye sockets if it felt like it.

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