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post #4561 of 4705 Old 06-06-2019, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
The M2 w/DCI sounds stupid good to my ears. Not scientific, but damn....these speakers are sonic bliss.
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Give me a call. I’ll remote in and check for you
I assume you had the tunings loaded correctly?
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post #4562 of 4705 Old 06-06-2019, 09:08 AM
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I assume you had the tunings loaded correctly?
Yep. He was all good..
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post #4563 of 4705 Old 06-06-2019, 11:29 AM
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Thanks again Tony!
Anytime!

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post #4564 of 4705 Old 06-06-2019, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
The bad news is that I had an 80's compilation SACD in the player so the first sounds I heard out of these bad boys was Rick Astley - Never Gonna Give You Up. I abhorred that song in the 80s and despise it at an immeasurable level today. Regardless, its the best that song has ever sounded to my ears.
Haha, your system Rick Rolled you? That's the best thing I've heard in days.

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Am I the only person in the world who finds stereo recordings listened to with headphones vary slightly and the center stage vocalist, drums, whatever shifts a few degrees laterally simply because one changes the recording? Drives me crazy.
NO. I am hyper sensitive to this and can hear this clearly on my HT setup when listening to music. I understand some songs it is intentional but I am truly amazed at how far vocals can drift either way. I am usually finding they drift left as opposed to right for whatever reason.
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post #4565 of 4705 Old 06-06-2019, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Haha, your system Rick Rolled you? That's the best thing I've heard in days.



NO. I am hyper sensitive to this and can hear this clearly on my HT setup when listening to music. I understand some songs it is intentional but I am truly amazed at how far vocals can drift either way. I am usually finding they drift left as opposed to right for whatever reason.
Drift left instead of right huh? Maybe your right ear is going bad? Time for a hearing test
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post #4566 of 4705 Old 06-06-2019, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Haha, your system Rick Rolled you? That's the best thing I've heard in days.



NO. I am hyper sensitive to this and can hear this clearly on my HT setup when listening to music. I understand some songs it is intentional but I am truly amazed at how far vocals can drift either way. I am usually finding they drift left as opposed to right for whatever reason.
With headphones, you only hear whats coming directly out of the left or right speaker with some imaging centered in your head. If you have a headphone amp with a cross-feed feature, you can get to sound more like speakers in a room. It's a nice little effect. I believe Roon also has this feature.

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post #4567 of 4705 Old 06-07-2019, 07:53 AM
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Drift left instead of right huh? Maybe your right ear is going bad? Time for a hearing test
All good there homey. I do hearing tests pretty regularly and still test with tones on my own on top of that. Hearing out of both ears is still exceptional with just a splash of tinnitus from my car audio days. Im surprised I came out as good as I did honestly, and I must have gotten lucky cuz it certainly wasnt for lack of trying to blow an ear drum back then.

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post #4568 of 4705 Old 06-07-2019, 01:09 PM
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Finally... M2s installed... and 4 Seaton F18s




Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.

Last edited by thebland; 06-07-2019 at 01:14 PM.
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post #4569 of 4705 Old 06-07-2019, 01:13 PM
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Finally... M2s installed... and 4 Seaton F18s
You lucky guy. Three, identical, state of the art speakers (I assume behind an AT screen), on the same plane. Nice!
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post #4570 of 4705 Old 06-07-2019, 08:10 PM
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Real men have their L/R speakers outside the screen Just kidding, I wish I could have gone wider than 127" on the screen but my angled ceilings got in the way. Looks awesome @thebland You are the reason I don't post pics of my home theater
Subs that make the M2's look small. Sweet :}

I will bet the output belies the size of those M2's though
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post #4571 of 4705 Old 06-07-2019, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post
Finally... M2s installed... and 4 Seaton F18s







Looks amazing!

Why did you choose not to go with a baffle wall? Looks like an Erskine design who usually recommends baffle walls.

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post #4572 of 4705 Old 06-08-2019, 04:33 AM
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Looks amazing!

Why did you choose not to go with a baffle wall? Looks like an Erskine design who usually recommends baffle walls.

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For M2s, Dennis (And JBL) said they were not needed for this speaker... Thanks!

Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #4573 of 4705 Old 06-08-2019, 06:58 AM
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Interesting. I would assume that speaker baffle width would dictate the need for a baffle wall. (i.e. how omnidirectional it is at lower frequencies). And the M2s are not different than for example Procella P815 which is always put in a baffle.

But there might be something to it that I am not aware of.

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post #4574 of 4705 Old 06-08-2019, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by JonasHansen View Post
Interesting. I would assume that speaker baffle width would dictate the need for a baffle wall. (i.e. how omnidirectional it is at lower frequencies). And the M2s are not different than for example Procella P815 which is always put in a baffle.

But there might be something to it that I am not aware of.
I think Dennis is the #1 Procella installer. He was adamant no baffle wall needed for the M2s.

Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #4575 of 4705 Old 06-08-2019, 09:35 AM
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M2s are not immune to boundary interference. I would go with a baffle wall.
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post #4576 of 4705 Old 06-08-2019, 10:04 AM
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Baffle wall placement can potentially be beneficial to any monopole speaker (and potentially detrimental in some regards too) but there's nothing about the M2 which requires it, in fact the owners manual doesn't even discuss it as an option.
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post #4577 of 4705 Old 06-08-2019, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Baffle wall placement can potentially be beneficial to any monopole speaker (and potentially detrimental in some regards too) but there's nothing about the M2 which requires it, in fact the owners manual doesn't even discuss it as an option.
No speakers require a baffle wall. A baffle wall does not improve the performance of the speaker (if we disregard added spl) but it fixes some issues caused by speaker and room.

That is why it sounds weird to me that the M2 should be a special case for a baffle. M2 does not bend the laws of physics

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post #4578 of 4705 Old 06-08-2019, 10:22 AM
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No speakers require a baffle wall.
This one does: https://hometheaterreview.com/jbl-sy...-wall-speaker/
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post #4579 of 4705 Old 06-08-2019, 10:26 AM
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Baffle placement has a downside too: it locks the user from being able to play around with differing amounts of toe-in, height, and spacing after the fact. These can greatly alter the sound stage and image placement.

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post #4580 of 4705 Old 06-08-2019, 11:19 AM
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Baffle placement has a downside too: it locks the user from being able to play around with differing amounts of toe-in, height, and spacing after the fact. These can greatly alter the sound stage and image placement.
You can still toe a speaker in a baffle wall.

That said, the M2 has 120 degree coverage pattern. Toe isn't going to change a whole lot.
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post #4581 of 4705 Old 06-08-2019, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Baffle placement has a downside too: it locks the user from being able to play around with differing amounts of toe-in, height, and spacing after the fact. These can greatly alter the sound stage and image placement.
We discussed a baffle wall. Had one on previous theater. It was a conscious decision to leave with the M2s. Sound stage is large and great dailog. Dont feel I'm missing much (if anything).
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Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #4582 of 4705 Old 06-08-2019, 11:55 AM
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You can still toe a speaker in a baffle wall.
If you create a rectangular hole in your baffle wall with side gaps (to allow significant speaker toe-in rotation) then the edges of that rectangle create an objectionable hard edge, an object, in close proximity to the tweeter CD for the high frequency sound to diffract against which can blur imaging. Even thought this is 90 degrees away from the main axis, manufacturers go to great lengths to avoid sharp edges in the entire front hemisphere and is why the M2 doesn't have a grill, at all, and somewhat rounded off front cabinet side edges.

More on possible set backs with baffles from Toole:

"In perusing some Internet photos of baffle-wall installations I have seen examples of bad practice in that the loudspeakers were placed inside enclosures sunk into the wall, and the cavity around the loudspeakers were not closed off or filled. Figure 9.9, p. 272 shows what might happen. The loudspeakers should be flush mounted without gaps. This achieves a perfect 2π mounting, which is beneficial to the bass output, but then there is the matter of the changed diffraction around the edges of the enclosure at higher frequencies. The edge diffraction of enclosures is part of the loudspeaker design and removing it or changing it actually changes the loudspeaker design. This is more likely to be a problem with cone/dome designs than designs using large horns, but it cannot be ignored.
I would be inclined to avoid a baffle wall for loudspeakers designed to be free/floorstanding because of the diffraction issue, which affects off-axis performance. Equalization can compensate for the bass rise, as it would have to in the baffle wall case, and also the adjacent-boundary dip due to wall behind. Baffle walls are a “cinema” thing, not a requirement for routine domestic installations."

Source: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...l#post56172434
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post #4583 of 4705 Old 06-08-2019, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
If you create a rectangular hole in your baffle wall with side gaps (to allow significant speaker toe-in rotation) then the edges of that rectangle create an objectionable hard edge, an object, in close proximity to the tweeter CD for the high frequency sound to diffract against which can blur imaging. Even thought this is 90 degrees away from the main axis, manufacturers go to great lengths to avoid sharp edges in the entire front hemisphere and is why the M2 doesn't have a grill, at all, and somewhat rounded off front cabinet side edges.
It's trivial to fill any gaps around the speaker. The M2 has fairly sharp side edges last I remember seeing them
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There are some on this forum, and manufacturers, who insist rear wall bounce is beneficial and adds to three dimensionality, spaciousness, and "depth", but I am unaware of any specific research to back this up. It could be their imagination; I don't know. I don't dismiss it out of hand as impossible though. Without a doubt, increasing the number of room reflections is going to alter the sound in some ways, as 4-pi placement indeed does, beyond just SBIR.

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post #4585 of 4705 Old 06-08-2019, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
The M2 has fairly sharp side edges last I remember seeing them
It is sort of rounded off:

https://images.reverb.com/image/uplo...gguhxucdec.jpg

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".
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It is sort of rounded off:
better pic

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post #4587 of 4705 Old 06-08-2019, 12:22 PM
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^Interestingly I see the top edge of the wave guide has the same "shaved off corner" design.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".
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post #4588 of 4705 Old 06-09-2019, 02:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Baffle wall placement can potentially be beneficial to any monopole speaker (and potentially detrimental in some regards too) but there's nothing about the M2 which requires it, in fact the owners manual doesn't even discuss it as an option.
See attachment from the brochure.
EDIT: Last paragraph mentions soffit mounting.
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post #4589 of 4705 Old 06-09-2019, 05:45 AM
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The manual from the north american site mentions taking off the rubber feet for soffit mounting (pg. 8) and later under the specifications states the speaker is floor standing or soffit mountable (pg. 11). Anyway, thebland's pics of his room shows he's got quite a fair amount of acoustic treatment so that coupled with the directivity performance of the M2 may mitigate SBIR to the point where a baffle wall may not be worth the time, effort, cost, and space especially when the same baffle wall would also have to handle the energy from those Seatons.
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post #4590 of 4705 Old 06-09-2019, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
There are some on this forum, and manufacturers, who insist rear wall bounce is beneficial and adds to three dimensionality, spaciousness, and "depth", but I am unaware of any specific research to back this up. It could be their imagination; I don't know. I don't dismiss it out of hand as impossible though. Without a doubt, increasing the number of room reflections is going to alter the sound in some ways, as 4-pi placement indeed does, beyond just SBIR.

That's true, I did, but I've said little about rear wall. Front wall, yes. And now in the early days with another set of Maggies, the new LRSs, true again.
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