JBL 'M2' Master Reference Monitor - Page 162 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4831 of 4913 Old 09-19-2019, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
If the complexity of the M2 and concerns over amps and dsp is too much for you, just get the 4367's That's what I did, and haven't looked back since. I too use my HT for more music than movies and I am consistently thrilled with the performance of the 4367's.
I simply jump the gun and start asking questions prematurely. I get Crown amps and BSS are options which manual refers to. Also SDP-75 can do the task. I haven't read enough on the topic nor even read the manual and it sounded rather complex. I suppose manual for M2 hasn't been updated after SDP-75 release. Since I haven't read the manual I was hopping for some software solution where one could implement the filter using PC and use multichannel DAC or even mini dsp (not enough bi-quads to handle the correction?)...

Looks like we shouldn't be limited to Crown and BSS. Here is a good read.

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post #4832 of 4913 Old 09-19-2019, 06:47 PM
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4637 is awesome, like the coverage pattern of it better than the M2. I'd like it better if it had 2x 15s
I used to be all about pattern control and reduced coverage, but having owned both extremes I found I prefer the "spray it all over the place" approach.
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post #4833 of 4913 Old 09-19-2019, 07:24 PM
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4637 is awesome, like the coverage pattern of it better than the M2. I'd like it better if it had 2x 15s
I saw someone is stacking his older version 4365 for 2 x 15s

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post #4834 of 4913 Old 09-19-2019, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by WereWolf84 View Post
I saw someone is stacking his older version 4365 for 2 x 15s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yX_MNr9ycKw
That's terribad.
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post #4835 of 4913 Old 09-20-2019, 08:04 AM
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I saw someone is stacking his older version 4365 for 2 x 15s
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
That's terribad.
Oh my. I mean, in a room that small and live three weren't enough? Lol. That dudes needs to go to class...

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post #4836 of 4913 Old 09-20-2019, 08:13 AM
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Some think North Americans in the audiophile hobby are too steeped in woo and lack understanding of the fundamentals.
Japanese audiophiles say "Hold my sake...."
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post #4837 of 4913 Old 09-21-2019, 03:36 AM
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Just wondering anyone faced any QC issues with the M2's?

One of my M2's has a dead LF driver.

Replacement is on the way, just need to play the waiting game now.

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post #4838 of 4913 Old 09-21-2019, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Balbolito View Post
Just wondering anyone faced any QC issues with the M2's?

One of my M2's has a dead LF driver.

Replacement is on the way, just need to play the waiting game now.
You're the first time I've seen a bad driver reported.
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post #4839 of 4913 Old 09-21-2019, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
I would suspect a dead amp channel before a LF driver. Did you swap channels to make sure its the driver?
1.Swapped channels
2.Did a bump test with a battery from the outside of the terminals
3.Changed speaker cables
4.Changed XLR cables

forgot what else too

Finaly I took out the driver from the cabinet and connected a new speaker cable directly to the terminals behind the driver to do a bump test. dead 100%.



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post #4840 of 4913 Old 09-21-2019, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
You're the first time I've seen a bad driver reported.
Guess its just a case of bad luck.


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post #4841 of 4913 Old 09-21-2019, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Balbolito View Post
Guess its just a case of bad luck.


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I think you spelled QC wrong
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post #4842 of 4913 Old 09-26-2019, 11:36 AM
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@Gooddoc
You asked earlier for me to provide my comparisons between the Revel 228be and the M2. The Revels arrived yesterday, and I have spent the morning listening to them. They sound good, but I was expecting more - a lot more. First, it has been noted that the 228be is more similar than different to the Salon2, but I surely hope that isn't the case. If that is true, then I have no Earthly clue how the Salon2 topped the M2 in that shootout. I know everyone says mono is as good of a test as stereo, but something had to have been amiss during that shootout with the M2 setup.; or, the 228be is not in the same league as the Salon2. Don't get me wrong, the Revel 228be sounds good, but the M2 crushes it. After owning the M2, I just have an ear for it. This is all subjective of course, but there you have it.
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post #4843 of 4913 Old 09-26-2019, 12:24 PM
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Interesting your subjective impressions. We of course did our listening tests both double blind and sighted, with the sighted comparisons in stereo. Impressions were the same on both listening sessions, if you go back to the comments of all the people that were there.

Obviously comparisons should be done blind and with the speakers precisely level matched for the most reliable results. No one should know which speaker they are listening to, a protocol we adhered to stringently.

I've talked to the research group at Harman about the tests we did, and most of them were not all that surprised at the results. I'm still after them to recreate the test in the MLL so we can compare notes

Worth noting that Floyd had a lot of input into the test procedure, and he predicted what it would be close to a statistical tie. It was, actually, - the two speakers were had total scores less than 1.5 points apart (7.18 M2 to 8.4 Salon2). And we all know which speakers Floyd put in his theater:



Also very important to use a large variety of recorded material, as you can see we did from the above chart.

I will say this again, as those of us here in Colorado Springs had several weeks to compare both speakers under a variety of conditions - my speaker preference would sometime depend on the recorded material. For close mic'd percussion and brass instruments, I would often prefer the M2 (such as that Jen Chapin track, "You Haven't Done Nothin'," for example, where the mic is placed almost down the tenor sax' throat, lol). Pretty much everything else I prefer the Salon2s (or the F228Bes).

After discussing this with Floyd, he agreed this made sense - the M2s have a greater predominance of direct sound, while the Salon2s bring in more of the room. Close mic'd instruments would have more of that kind of "in the room" presence with the M2. Most recordings, though, have some sense of "space" around the instruments, and the Revels do a better job there (IMO, and that of most of the attendees at our shootout).
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post #4844 of 4913 Old 09-26-2019, 12:37 PM
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Yes, it was subjective, unscientific, and just my redneck opinion. Both my eyes are open and I know exactly what is being played. I have no ax to grind, since I own both. The Salon2 may simply be a superior speaker than the 228be, but if I recall the 228be does very well in blind testing against the higher tiers of Revel (maybe not). The M2 can play without a sub and dig deep. The Revel is shallower and thinner than M2 in the low end. I had forgotten what speaker "strain" was with the 4722 and M2. The knob rotates and it is just effortless. I rolled the volume on the Revels and I detect it being "loud". It wasn't breaking up or anything. I am probably doing a poor job of explaining it. The M2 and 4722 could go to dangerous levels without realizing it was "loud". I bought the Revel for 2 channel listening. I was expecting it to be more musical than the M2. In my subjective opinion, its not. Different ears, different rooms, etc - I get it. We all like what we like.
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post #4845 of 4913 Old 09-26-2019, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Yes, it was subjective, unscientific, and just my redneck opinion. Both my eyes are open and I know exactly what is being played. I have no ax to grind, since I own both. The Salon2 may simply be a superior speaker than the 228be, but if I recall the 228be does very well in blind testing against the higher tiers of Revel (maybe not). The M2 can play without a sub and dig deep. The Revel is shallower and thinner than M2 in the low end. I had forgotten what speaker "strain" was with the 4722 and M2. The knob rotates and it is just effortless. I rolled the volume on the Revels and I detect it being "loud". It wasn't breaking up or anything. I am probably doing a poor job of explaining it. The M2 and 4722 could go to dangerous levels without realizing it was "loud". I bought the Revel for 2 channel listening. I was expecting it to be more musical than the M2. In my subjective opinion, its not. Different ears, different rooms, etc - I get it. We all like what we like.
Yeah, there is definitely more bass with the M2 or Salon2. Have the F228Be and Salon2 in my house, so have compared those as well. The Salon2s have pride of place in my theater with the SCL2 in the wall. Same feeling regarding the SCL2 as I do with the M2, but of course you need a sub (or two, or four). Sadly, right now the F228Bes are in my office - they come out for demos. Terrific speakers, but my house is so overloaded with speakers I have no room for them anywhere else

I will be setting up an SDP75 sometime in the next week or two and will be able to directly A/B the SCL2s with the Salon2s, and any other speaker. The 75 has a lot of versatility, that's for sure.

As you can imagine, over the years we've compared a ton of speakers. Right now I can pull out and compare:

SCL2
Salon2
LSR708i
F228Be
F36
C763L
F206
F208
F228Be
M16
Voice2
C208
C205
308P
305P

Crazy, huh? All in my house, lol. The 308Ps are in my mix room.

What amp are you using? I have played the Salon2s and F228Bes to earsplitting levels with my ATI AT6003 without any strain. However, I do feel that the Salon2s still sound a bit smoother on top than the F228Bes even at intense volume levels (which is why I still prefer the Salon2s).

Good track that shows off Salon2 (and SCL2) dynamics - Infected Mushroom, Never Mind.

And for whatever it's worth, all of the above speakers are wonderfully musical I also listen to a lot of orchestral (I am a sometime film composer by trade), and it's the silkiness in the strings that really sells me on the Revels. I think Floyd's thoughts on the predominance of direct sound of the M2 holds true here - that's why strings sound a little "dry" on them. It's interesting that the SCL2 - with its broader dispersion - has more of that silky sound than the M2, IMO. And why I noticed the same thing with the M2 vs. the LSR708 - the more focused waveguide on the LSR708 also resulted in a dryer sound vs. the M2.

But the nice thing here is that all of these speakers can be counted on to be neutral, without any unwanted or unnecessary colorations. It's kinda like the choice you make to acoustically treat your room - if you want a dryer, more direct sound, absorb first reflections. If you want a more spacious, open sound, leave them alone or add diffusion. Season to taste.

FWIW, I chose to split the difference - my room is neither live nor dead, based on some input from Floyd and Gerry LeMay.

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post #4846 of 4913 Old 09-26-2019, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Yes, it was subjective, unscientific, and just my redneck opinion. Both my eyes are open and I know exactly what is being played. I have no ax to grind, since I own both. The Salon2 may simply be a superior speaker than the 228be, but if I recall the 228be does very well in blind testing against the higher tiers of Revel (maybe not). The M2 can play without a sub and dig deep. The Revel is shallower and thinner than M2 in the low end. I had forgotten what speaker "strain" was with the 4722 and M2. The knob rotates and it is just effortless. I rolled the volume on the Revels and I detect it being "loud". It wasn't breaking up or anything. I am probably doing a poor job of explaining it. The M2 and 4722 could go to dangerous levels without realizing it was "loud". I bought the Revel for 2 channel listening. I was expecting it to be more musical than the M2. In my subjective opinion, its not. Different ears, different rooms, etc - I get it. We all like what we like.
It could just be the room and placement. At Axpona they had the salon2's and the 228Be's in two different room and two completely different layouts. I know what the salon2's are capable of but unfortunately they were one of my least favorite presentations at the show....What a shame. The 228's on the other hand sounded incredible. They played "Planet Dada" by Yello and the top end little clicks and shimmers felt like they were flying straight from that Be tweeter straight into my brain stem. It was crazy. It was almost like I didn't even hear those effects, I just immediately "felt" them inside my head.
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post #4847 of 4913 Old 09-26-2019, 01:12 PM
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Nothing fancy, just an Onkyo 1100z. I could use an external since I have a Outlaw audio (rebadged Ati) not in use, but I don't think I am lacking amplification. I certainly wasn't playing it very loud. It could be the room, but this is my living room, so there will be no wall treatments, subs, etc. Either way, I put them up for sale in the classifieds. If they sell fine, if not I will keep them. On the positive, they are stunning and classy looking, so the wife likes them. Don't get me wrong, these speakers sound really, really good. I just prefer the M2. I had set pretty high hopes for these. Didn't Dr. Toole say that a deterring factor in not choosing the M2 for his home was amp noise and aesthetics? Maybe I misread.
Correct about Floyd. He didn't chose the Salon2 because he thought it sounded better, it was mostly aesthetics and his belief that the two speakers were essentially tied for performance. What I found fun was how closely he followed our shootout, not only in setup, but in checking in on the results as well.

There is no doubt that a good compression driver has insane impact and slam.

Interesting to note that the new F328Be will have all new, considerably more powerful motors for almost all of the drivers, which should definitely help in the dynamics. That's one of the advantages of the Salon2, in that the motor assemblies are superior to the F228Be (particularly in the tweeter, from what I understand).

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post #4848 of 4913 Old 09-26-2019, 01:50 PM
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Try this track on the F228Bes - one I think really shows off their strengths:

Anne Bisson - Us and Them

Listen to the bells at the very beginning, or the percussion when it comes in at 2:17.

I actually like this track better on the F228Bes than the Salon2s.

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post #4849 of 4913 Old 09-26-2019, 02:14 PM
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Try this track on the F228Bes - one I think really shows off their strengths:

Anne Bisson - Us and Them
I always learn great demo material from you! THANKS.
[I have only so far heard the Youtbe compressed version but even there it is stellar]

The sound is extremely "intimate" and has almost no room sound. This makes it useful for specific tests where you seek that. It is almost as if it were recorded anechoically.

Is this cut also a show favorite like Jen Chapin?

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post #4850 of 4913 Old 09-26-2019, 03:21 PM
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@Gooddoc
You asked earlier for me to provide my comparisons between the Revel 228be and the M2. The Revels arrived yesterday, and I have spent the morning listening to them. They sound good, but I was expecting more - a lot more. First, it has been noted that the 228be is more similar than different to the Salon2, but I surely hope that isn't the case. If that is true, then I have no Earthly clue how the Salon2 topped the M2 in that shootout. I know everyone says mono is as good of a test as stereo, but something had to have been amiss during that shootout with the M2 setup.; or, the 228be is not in the same league as the Salon2. Don't get me wrong, the Revel 228be sounds good, but the M2 crushes it. After owning the M2, I just have an ear for it. This is all subjective of course, but there you have it.
You're not the first to own both a top Revel and the M2 and prefer the latter. I think they are all outstanding loudspeakers with their unique strengths and weaknesses with preferences depending on room, setup, personal preference, output capability, etc.

I was over @DreamWarrior 's place recently to hear his M2's and the SQ was simply outstanding. The pinnacle of sound reproduction IMO. He has 6 Seaton subs in his room and they are all tuned manually without any room correction whatsoever. When a setup sounds that good there is simply no reason to worry about whether there might be better. IMO
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post #4851 of 4913 Old 09-26-2019, 03:32 PM
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You're not the first to own both a top Revel and the M2 and prefer the latter. I think they are all outstanding loudspeakers with their unique strengths and weaknesses with preferences depending on room, setup, personal preference, output capability, etc.

I was over @DreamWarrior 's place recently to hear his M2's and the SQ was simply outstanding. The pinnacle of sound reproduction IMO. He has 6 Seaton subs in his room and they are all tuned manually without any room correction whatsoever. When a setup sounds that good there is simply no reason to worry about whether there might be better. IMO
Agreed. I can't pull off M2's in the living room for aesthetic and noise reasons or I would have bought two more. Same with the 708, the wife wanted a furniture grade speaker. She put her foot down on the ugly, black boxes that have invaded her domicile for years. The industrial, all business looking gear is relegated to the theater. The wife likes the 228be, so they are staying. They are much like the M2 where content is king. Good recordings sound fabulous, bad ones....well you know how that goes.
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post #4852 of 4913 Old 09-26-2019, 06:03 PM
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I always learn great demo material from you! THANKS.
[I have only so far heard the Youtbe compressed version but even there it is stellar]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fj0DeArcxTQ

The sound is extremely "intimate" and has almost no room sound. This makes it useful for specific tests where you seek that. It is almost as if it were recorded anechoically.

Is this cut also a show favorite like Jen Chapin?
Yup!

Updated demo song list - check out "With a Little Help From My Friends" from Anne Bisson as well. Some spooky L/R vocal effects:

These Bones - Fairfield Four
With a Little Help From My Friends – Anne Bisson
Us and Them – Anne Bisson
Never Mind - Infected Mushroom
Planet Dada (Flamboyant) – Yello
You Haven’t Done Nothin’ – Jen Chapin
Fragments of Time - Daft Punk
The Girl in the Other Room - Diana Krall
Trans-Island Skyway - Donald Fagen
Fever - Malia / Boris Blank
Los - Rammstein
Magnetic Lies - Malia / Boris Blank
Let's Get it On - Lisa Lovbrand
Spanish Harlem - Rebecca PIdgeon
Fly Like An Eagle - Seal
Coldest Winter - Kanye West
Desafinado - Ana Caram
Isn't She Lovely - Livingston Taylor
Yesterday - The Persuasions
Little Amsterdam - Tori Amo
Here We Go Again (Ray Charles / Norah Jones)
Welcome to My World (Depeche Mode)
Cheek to Cheek (Tony Bennet / Lady Gaga)
Brick House (Sara K.)
Thanks to You (Boz Scaggs)
Goodbye Yellow Brick Road (Sara Bareilles, Live at the Variety Playhouse)
Rosewood (Main Theme, John Williams, Original Soundtrack)
Cousin John (Marcus Miller)
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post #4853 of 4913 Old 09-26-2019, 07:44 PM
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I have been listening to them all day and still listening as we speak. They are just different, so I may just need some time to adjust to the differences. This is my first tweeter speaker that I have owned in probably nine years. I was just listening to 10cc - I'm Not in Love and it was superb. I don' t think a buyer is going to jump forward anytime soon. I will continue to put them through their paces. First world problems.....
Yeah, IMO, best to let yourself adjust to them (what us audiophile types call speaker break-in) and then compare. What I also went through a few months ago when I bought a second pair of dipoles. Although they had somewhat similar imagining characteristics, damn did they sound different. If I listened to one brand or another for an extended period of time, then found that it would take a little while to get 'used' to other again.
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post #4854 of 4913 Old 09-26-2019, 08:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
It could just be the room and placement. At Axpona they had the salon2's and the 228Be's in two different room and two completely different layouts. I know what the salon2's are capable of but unfortunately they were one of my least favorite presentations at the show....What a shame. The 228's on the other hand sounded incredible. They played "Planet Dada" by Yello and the top end little clicks and shimmers felt like they were flying straight from that Be tweeter straight into my brain stem. It was crazy. It was almost like I didn't even hear those effects, I just immediately "felt" them inside my head.
I agree and even liked the newly revised L100s better, much better.

I noticed many manufactures' top of their line speaker was a disaster. ML with the Neolith, MBL with the Extreme, and although it wasn't their room nor their top of their line, the Maggie 3.7i. The $650 LRSs were much better IMO. I could go on and on. I may try or also try RMAF next year to see if I just generally like the sound of those rooms better than I did at AXPONA.
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post #4855 of 4913 Old 09-26-2019, 09:45 PM
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JBL 'M2' Master Reference Monitor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Nothing fancy, just an Onkyo 1100z. I could use an external since I have a Outlaw audio (rebadged Ati) not in use, but I don't think I am lacking amplification.

I hate to blame the electronics, but here there’s a reasonable case for it. An AVR could easily be current limited into a speaker that’s hard to drive. After all, AVR amps are primarily designed to swing decent voltage into bass managed speakers.

I’d count the F228Be, with 4 ohm impedance in the upper bass and some steep phase angles, as hard to drive. Maybe the Outlaw won’t change anything. But it might.
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post #4856 of 4913 Old 09-29-2019, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post
I hate to blame the electronics, but here there’s a reasonable case for it. An AVR could easily be current limited into a speaker that’s hard to drive. After all, AVR amps are primarily designed to swing decent voltage into bass managed speakers.

I’d count the F228Be, with 4 ohm impedance in the upper bass and some steep phase angles, as hard to drive. Maybe the Outlaw won’t change anything. But it might.
Could be, especially since you’re ( @Molon_Labe ) are used to more inherently efficient compression systems for 9 years..

I haven’t heard the M2’s or Salon2 but I’ve heard the Studio2 and F226Be (RMAF with a Mark Levinson Integrated) and of course the F208.

Really impressed with the F226Be

I would try the external amp especially since you have it.

What source for playback? DAC internal to receiver?

Wish you’d ordered walnut...
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post #4857 of 4913 Old 09-29-2019, 09:15 PM
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@John Schuermann have you listened to Lori Lieberman & The Matangi Quartet - The Girl and the Cat

Empty Chairs is a good one
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post #4858 of 4913 Old 09-30-2019, 05:21 AM
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Originally Posted by laserjock II View Post
Could be, especially since you’re ( @Molon_Labe ) are used to more inherently efficient compression systems for 9 years..

I haven’t heard the M2’s or Salon2 but I’ve heard the Studio2 and F226Be (RMAF with a Mark Levinson Integrated) and of course the F208.

Really impressed with the F226Be

I would try the external amp especially since you have it.

What source for playback? DAC internal to receiver?

Wish you’d ordered walnut...
I did order walnut. You want to trade?
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post #4859 of 4913 Old 09-30-2019, 06:53 AM
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I did order walnut. You want to trade?
Ah, I thought you had ordered the piano black.

Maybe we can work something out. Hmmm

BTW, here’s your amp specs per Sound and Vision tests.

This graph shows that the TX-RZ1100’s left channel, from CD input to speaker output with two channels driving 8-ohm loads, reaches 0.1% distortion at 124.8 watts and 1% distortion at 184.2 watts. Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1% distortion at 133.5 watts and 1% distortion at 255.6 watts.


Read more at https://www.soundandvision.com/content/onkyo-tx-rz1100-av-receiver-review-test-bench#ss3ckkGxPyT1hXCp.99
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post #4860 of 4913 Old 09-30-2019, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laserjock II View Post
@John Schuermann have you listened to Lori Lieberman & The Matangi Quartet - The Girl and the Cat

Empty Chairs is a good one
No yet - will check them out!

@Molon_Labe - you might look at the new JVB HDI series box speakers shipping early next year - better looks than an M2 or 708 for sure, and a lot of trickle down technology. They certainly had that type of dynamic sound when I heard them at CEDIA.

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