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post #751 of 5175 Old 06-22-2016, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Nice layout Gooddoc.

Out of interest,is there much of a noticeable difference in performance between the 705's and 708's?
Don't know really. I have never listened to the 705's in anything but the ceiling positions. The system handles reference level and above effortlessly, and the soundfield is very cohesive and seamless. Beyond that I really can't give you any definitive comparo.
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post #752 of 5175 Old 06-22-2016, 10:15 AM
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We did hear the 705s and 708s sequentially at Harman Academy. The only real difference seemed to be bass output (which was the design goal). Obviously the 708 can also play louder.
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post #753 of 5175 Old 06-22-2016, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by AudioJosh View Post
Gooddoc,

That looks pretty tempting to me. That actually gave me some perspective on how to arrange my Atmos monitors (Concentric 8s..ala DIYSoundGroup). So you are doing 4.x.4 then I take it? Or do you have non-shown rears?
I just have 708 side surrounds in the 110 deg. position and the 4 705 ceilings. I have two more 708's and two more 705's in boxes and would like to do a couple of rears too. I just haven't figured out a way to do it in my room. There's too much traffic back there to put them on stands. They'd get knocked over for sure. Oh, and wides too, as soon as they get a couple more channels in a processor.
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post #754 of 5175 Old 06-22-2016, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
We did hear the 705s and 708s sequentially at Harman Academy. The only real difference seemed to be bass output (which was the design goal). Obviously the 708 can also play louder.
That would be my general impression, although I have yet to hear anything that sounds like the 705's are stressing, so not sure where their limits are.
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post #755 of 5175 Old 06-22-2016, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by 12B4A View Post
Every time I see the Alcon ribbon towers it just makes me think they are just higher power handling Newform Research ribbons. I had a pair of R630s for quite a few years.
Is that a good thing?

I've still got a pair, which for various reasons I've never used except as back surrounds, but I'm thinking of resurrecting them, possibly biamped using Trinnov Optimizer active XO function .

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post #756 of 5175 Old 06-22-2016, 10:24 AM
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When I was talking to one of the Synthesis designers, they suggested that I stick to 708s for side surrounds as they will typically get more full range signals than the heights. If I wasn't doing the Revel in-ceilings for heights already I'd use the 705s, just like you.

Technically, the Dolby spec calls for full range / full dynamics in all channels, but from what I was told at JBL it's rare that the ceiling channels get the same kind of dynamics as the sides and fronts. I would guess that it's because the sides usually have the surround "bed" plus discrete effects. I've noticed more and more filmmakers mixing dialogue into the sides and rears as well.
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post #757 of 5175 Old 06-22-2016, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
That would be my general impression, although I have yet to hear anything that sounds like the 705's are stressing, so not sure where their limits are.
I would think it's just a matter of bass extension, so crossing them over high enough should take care of it. My Revel C763L in-ceilings are crossed over at 120hz.

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post #758 of 5175 Old 06-22-2016, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Is that a good thing?

I've still got a pair, which for various reasons I've never used except as back surrounds.
Yeah they're pretty decent. It's kind of like adding a little bit of planar/line source image sizing to cone speakers or conversely, tamping down the large imaging of planars in favor of stronger cone bass and mid-bass. In the end, it's just a little different animal than full planar vs. cone/dome/mini-ribbon boxes. You're not quite getting all the benefits of both technologies but you're not getting the worse either. It's just different and might be preferential to some folks. I used mine as mains for over 10 years.

It's just that seeing the single source hype train of superlatives for Alcons over the past several months has made me little skeptical when the case could just be fickle flavored novelty.

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post #759 of 5175 Old 06-22-2016, 10:52 AM
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Interesting take, thanks, though I was hoping for some gushing over their ribbon clarity and finesse to re-inspire me

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post #760 of 5175 Old 06-22-2016, 12:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by 12B4A View Post
It's just that seeing the single source hype train of superlatives for Alcons over the past several months has made me little skeptical when the case could just be fickle flavored novelty.
If there is only a few major takeaways from the work of Toole & Olive and the research that Harman has conducted and seems dedicated towards over the years it is probably that subjective opinion is unreliable, and a lack of any serious measurements or objective data isn't trumped by opinion or listening alone.

While I don't have a lot of experience with the speakers you are taking about and so I won't make any judgements there specifically - in general I tend to sway towards the "no measurements, no good" camp until I'm proven wrong. It's rare, and fun, when I'm wrong; and I enjoy it too. I view it like finding something like a real diamond in a floor covered with cubic zirconias.

Certainly the higher end stuff tends to be better than the bottom end- but I also think price alone is rarely a true and significant validation.

I've seen a myriad of new speaker brands garner unwarranted hype and support only to turn out many models have significant flaws or problems, and it makes you wonder sometimes how so many people could be so wrong. I won't name names, but there is more than a few examples, even recently. Time and time again I've seen it play out and it never fails to amaze me. 90% of the people are ignorant to these realities on these boards and the other 10% grows too tired to fight the endless fight against the dogma.

It's 2016 and the evidence is overwhelming for the benefits so you'd think that any serious speaker company would be committed to accurate measurement and objective data; sadly that still isn't the case. I don't think that seems to bother the companies that do (like Harman) because I think they enjoy the influx of customers and postive enthusiast opinions that stem as a result. If everyone was doing it then it would be less special. But at the same time I think it really sucks for a lot of people who are trying to pick out speakers without good meaningful information to use and make intelligent choices based upon.
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post #761 of 5175 Old 06-22-2016, 01:02 PM
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Here is some info in the Alcons pro-ribbon driver: http://www.alconsaudio.com/line-array-technology/
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post #762 of 5175 Old 06-22-2016, 02:01 PM
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I think using the 705s for Atmos speakers makes a lot of sense and I can't imagine it would limit anything in the real world. I'm also not hanging 708s from the ceiling. They are just too big for that. But 708s for the sides, yeah.
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post #763 of 5175 Old 06-22-2016, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
When I was talking to one of the Synthesis designers, they suggested that I stick to 708s for side surrounds as they will typically get more full range signals than the heights. If I wasn't doing the Revel in-ceilings for heights already I'd use the 705s, just like you.

Technically, the Dolby spec calls for full range / full dynamics in all channels, but from what I was told at JBL it's rare that the ceiling channels get the same kind of dynamics as the sides and fronts. I would guess that it's because the sides usually have the surround "bed" plus discrete effects. I've noticed more and more filmmakers mixing dialogue into the sides and rears as well.
I thought Dolby said 100hz or so was good for the bottom end on the ceiling speakers.

There was a htgeek podcast about a year and a half ago. The guest was someone working in cinema audio. IIRC he said that 90% or greater of a movie's audio is coming through the center channel. It seems like a waste to spend a lot on surround channels. The Pioneer Atmos demo '14 convinced me that 5.1.4 is better than any number of surrounds without ceiling speakers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 12B4A View Post

It's just that seeing the single source hype train of superlatives for Alcons over the past several months has made me little skeptical when the case could just be fickle flavored novelty.
I wonder who. It isn't like he is saying the JBLs sound good in a demo, but you get listening fatigue after a week or so. Right Gooddoc?

I don't recall anyone having anything negative to say about the Alcon demo at Cedia. I am not someone who considers himself a goldenear, but it was one of the best audio demos of the show. Of course, I think you could throw a blanket over the top ten speakers and no one would be able to tell the difference.

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post #764 of 5175 Old 06-22-2016, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
When I was talking to one of the Synthesis designers, they suggested that I stick to 708s for side surrounds as they will typically get more full range signals than the heights.
Wondering why you shared his dated advice when you know better:

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
I would think it's just a matter of bass extension, so crossing them over high enough should take care of it. My Revel C763L in-ceilings are crossed over at 120hz.

Noah

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post #765 of 5175 Old 06-22-2016, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post
I thought Dolby said 100hz or so was good for the bottom end on the ceiling speakers.

There was a htgeek podcast about a year and a half ago. The guest was someone working in cinema audio. IIRC he said that 90% or greater of a movie's audio is coming through the center channel. It seems like a waste to spend a lot on surround channels. The Pioneer Atmos demo '14 convinced me that 5.1.4 is better than any number of surrounds without ceiling speakers.
I am going off the actual Dolby Cinema specs - here is the relevant portion from their commercial cinema white paper:

4.4 Surround Loudspeaker Sound Pressure Level: 99 dB

Each loudspeaker and associated amplifier must have a maximum output capability of 99 dB continuous SPL at the RLP (defined on page 1). Loudspeaker capability must be determined, as described in Section 6. We recommend an amplifier with 3 dB of headroom (that is, twice the required continuous power).

4.5 Surround Array Sound Pressure Level: 105 dB

Each surround array and the associated amplifiers must be able to produce 105 dB continuous SPL at the RLP. To meet this requirement for surround arrays with fewer than four loudspeakers, each loudspeaker must be able to produce more than 99 dB continuous SPL.

4.6 Surround Sound Frequency Response: 40 Hz to 16 kHz, +3/–6 dB Dolby Atmos auditoriums must support playback of full-range surround signals. To meet this specification standard, cinema
surround loudspeakers with limited bass response require bass management. If bass management is used, the surround loudspeakers frequency response (±3 dB) must extend to 90 Hz or lower. The crossover frequency should be set based on the capabilities of the surround loudspeakers, but must not be higher than 100 Hz.


In the cinema spec, there is no differentiation made between side and ceiling surrounds. All are full range channels. My post had to do with how they are likely to be implemented in an actual mix, where the ceiling channels are unlikely to be used (often) for intensely dynamic, full range signals.

RE: 90% of a movie coming from the center. This is not universally true, in fact it's very rarely the case at all. Perhaps if we are talking about a drama where it's almost all dialogue (or a Woody Allen movie) that might be true. But almost every movie ever made has a music score, and the music score is almost exclusively mixed to left, right and surrounds. So are the big sound effects in action and SF films.

Even if most of the movie is carried by the dialogue, whenever the music or sound effects kick in, those go out to the sides and surrounds and THAT is where most of the crazy dynamics live. I've mixed two films in surround, and while these were both independent films without lots of money for big FX or elaborate sequences, most of the dynamic energy still ended up coming from the main left and right channels. It's clear even if you look at the waveform - the center channel is almost always active, but most of it is pretty restrained in dynamics, while the big peaks come on the left and rights (this is not always the case, though, which is why you really do want a good quality center speaker).

This is all very easy to test out at home - just disconnect your center speaker during a movie like GODZILLA or THE FORCE AWAKENS, and you will hear all kinds of very dynamic sounds coming from all around you.

Another excellent test - either BIRDMAN or THE REVENANT, both cases where dialogue is also mixed into the side and rear surrounds, discretely.

I think it's also important to point out that this is all evolving, so even if mixers are not taking full advantage of all channels yet, that does not mean they won't be. I think that "80 - 90% from the center channel" was true in the Dolby Surround past, but not really any more

Hope that helps!

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post #766 of 5175 Old 06-22-2016, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Wondering why you shared his dated advice when you know better:
I wouldn't say it's dated at all - in fact, it comes from someone whose name you would probably all recognize, just a couple of weeks ago

Yes, bass management helps in these regards for sure. But eventually you can start putting more and more strain on those subs - you better have enough in the room with enough raw power behind them.

The fact of the matter is that the 8" driver on the 708 will handle the midrange and upper bass dynamics better than the 5" driver on the LSR705, even if you cross them over at 80 - 100 hz.

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post #767 of 5175 Old 06-22-2016, 07:34 PM
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Of course that's true, but the statement that "side surrounds ... will typically get more full range signals than the heights" is not true if they're XO'd at the same freq.

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post #768 of 5175 Old 06-22-2016, 07:50 PM
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Don't you think that is being a tad pedantic? Especially when you know what he meant? I get it, he should be clear, but still.
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post #769 of 5175 Old 06-22-2016, 10:56 PM
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Very possible.
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@JOHN ,
https://twit.tv/shows/home-theater-g...utostart=false
https://twit.tv/shows/home-theater-g...utostart=false

It was in one of these two podcasts.

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post #771 of 5175 Old 06-22-2016, 11:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
RE: 90% of a movie coming from the center. This is not universally true, in fact it's very rarely the case at all....


...I think it's also important to point out that this is all evolving, so even if mixers are not taking full advantage of all channels yet, that does not mean they won't be. I think that "80 - 90% from the center channel" was true in the Dolby Surround past, but not really any more
Randomly I just tried two movies, both fairly modern and big budget: Ted 2 [DD 5.1] on my Comcast DVR and Night at the Museum on BD [5.1 DTS-HD Master]. Unless my system has horrendously bad channel separation [in the electrical domain] I was clearly hearing both foley effects and music from the center channel right during the first scenes I happened to analyze. I listened to the center channel in isolation with all the other channels disconnected.

The last time I did similar testing, with one of the first consumer movies to have what was then called AC3, was with the movie True Lies I believe in 1995 or so. Back then things were more like you said but I suspect somewhere along the line things changed. Just a thought. [The opening/ closing credit's music might also differ from the music during the main movie scenes, which is what I was listening to.]

Another possibility is when they use a song for the soundtrack which arrives to them produced in 2ch they don't bother to mix some into the center, whereas if the soundtrack is made specifically for the film then there is center content. ?
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In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".

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post #772 of 5175 Old 06-23-2016, 03:07 PM
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Of course that's true, but the statement that "side surrounds ... will typically get more full range signals than the heights" is not true if they're XO'd at the same freq.
Sorry if I wasn't clear, but I was speaking in terms of the mix itself. Of course, technically all channels are spec'd full range for ATMOS. However, it is rare that a mixer will put a mix element that has insane dynamics and a wide frequency range into the height channels. Not saying it will never happen or that it does not happen, just that the most dynamic elements are typically mixed to the fronts, sides, rears, and heights (in that order).

Not an absolute, but typical of most mixes. Hope that clarifies things

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post #773 of 5175 Old 06-23-2016, 03:16 PM
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Is the LSR705i and LSR708i part of the Synthesis line-up? I don't see them on the JBL Synthesis website.
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post #774 of 5175 Old 06-23-2016, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Randomly I just tried two movies, both fairly modern and big budget: Ted 2 [DD 5.1] on my Comcast DVR and Night at the Museum on BD [5.1 DTS-HD Master]. Unless my system has horrendously bad channel separation [in the electrical domain] I was clearly hearing both foley effects and music from the center channel right during the first scenes I happened to analyze. I listened to the center channel in isolation with all the other channels disconnected.

The last time I did similar testing, with one of the first consumer movies to have what was then called AC3, was with the movie True Lies I believe in 1995 or so. Back then things were more like you said but I suspect somewhere along the line things changed. Just a thought. [The opening/ closing credit's music might also differ from the music during the main movie scenes, which is what I was listening to.]

Another possibility is when they use a song for the soundtrack which arrives to them produced in 2ch they don't bother to mix some into the center, whereas if the soundtrack is made specifically for the film then there is center content. ?
With bigger budget movies the scores are often recorded with discrete LCR + surround in mind - there will be a music stem with left, center, right and surround elements. As you mention, this is more typical of today's movies than movies in the past.

I can remember extracting 5.1 stems from Blu-rays and DVDs then isolating the channels in my mix studio, in order to analyze how the "big time pros" in Hollywood mixed their movies. One example was a party scene in SHATTERED GLASS, with party ambiance and background music mixed into the scene. If I killed the L & R, all that was left was the naked dialogue Now that has changed, as the multichannel reverb plugins have evolved, etc, and you will often hear these elements in all channels.

It may interest you to know that surround mix software will actually prohibit a mixer from mixing identical sounds LCR, as there can be real phase problems with that type of scenario. With a good surround reverb the sounds can be spread across the front in a much more believable manner vs. a mono signal going into 3 channels. Way too complicated to go into here.

Point being that mix practices are evolving and changing, and my guess is that we will see more and more full range and discrete elements making their way into sides, rears, and heights.

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post #775 of 5175 Old 06-23-2016, 03:23 PM
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Is the LSR705i and LSR708i part of the Synthesis line-up? I don't see them on the JBL Synthesis website.
They are listed on the Synthesis design and price sheets, however, since they are "borrowed" from JBL Pro they are not available in every region of the world due to regional restrictions between JBL Pro and Consumer.

New speakers such as the Synthesis SCL3 and SCL4 are based on LSR / M2 technology and are only available through Synthesis, so there you have a similar situation in reverse.

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post #776 of 5175 Old 06-23-2016, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post
Thanks for sharing those links - I know I've listened to the second one before, with Brian Vessa . And I do think I overstated my case when I said:

RE: 90% of a movie coming from the center. This is not universally true, in fact it's very rarely the case at all. Perhaps if we are talking about a drama where it's almost all dialogue (or a Woody Allen movie) that might be true. But almost every movie ever made has a music score, and the music score is almost exclusively mixed to left, right and surrounds. So are the big sound effects in action and SF films.


I still stand by most of that statement, but - as @m. zillch , pointed out - many modern film mixes incorporate music elements and foley into the center channel (in fact, foley is most often mixed to the center channel - if something is happening in the middle of the screen, that sound effect / element SHOULD be mixed to the center). With foley, it depends on the type of effect, as with many of the more modern sound plugins it is possible to mix sounds across the front soundstage much more seamlessly than in the past. And, being a part time film composer, I should not have said music is mixed only Left, Right and Surround.

If you listen to movies made in the 80s when Dolby surround was really coming into its own, you can often hear stereo foley type effects dropped across the front soundstage despite the dialogue / location sound track being mono. These FX stand out like sore thumbs to me, because they don't sound like they exist in the same space as the characters. I almost always mixed foley fx to mono during that time, because to me stereo foley fx just pulled me out of the reality the film was trying to create (an example would be a car door opening, or an alarm clock sound effect - all the other location sounds in the scene would be mono, and suddenly a car door opening is mixed left and right).

That said, I once again should have clarified what I meant by sound effects. Foley will often live in the center, but big effects like helicopters and explosions and giant monsters / robots stomping around are most often mixed most dynamically to the left and rights (plus occasionally surrounds). The center will get a good dose of those effects as well.

I would totally agree with the 80 - 90% statement if it were amended to read "front soundstage" vs. "center channel." It is true that great majority of the sound of most films is placed in a space about 60 degrees to each side of the listener, which would encompass LCR vs. instead of just the center.

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post #777 of 5175 Old 06-23-2016, 04:25 PM
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They are listed on the Synthesis design and price sheets, however, since they are "borrowed" from JBL Pro they are not available in every region of the world due to regional restrictions between JBL Pro and Consumer.

New speakers such as the Synthesis SCL3 and SCL4 are based on LSR / M2 technology and are only available through Synthesis, so there you have a similar situation in reverse.
Thanks.

Are there any members on AVS that have a full Synthesis setup?
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post #778 of 5175 Old 06-23-2016, 04:29 PM
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I'm sure there are. Last I heard rabident was doing a full Synthesis system much like we've been discussing.

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post #779 of 5175 Old 06-23-2016, 05:20 PM
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Sorry if I wasn't clear, but I was speaking in terms of the mix itself. Of course, technically all channels are spec'd full range for ATMOS...
I thought the discussion was in the context of home use, meaning bass management, so I stand by my statement.

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post #780 of 5175 Old 06-23-2016, 09:35 PM
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Ok, I think we are just talking past each other at this point anyway
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