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post #1411 of 5175 Old 10-29-2016, 07:32 AM
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@Gooddoc

I know you are using JTR subwoofers with your M2 setup. How do you like the subwoofers? Is your room made of concrete? Do you get good ultra-low frequency response? If I recall correctly, you are considering replacing them with JBL subwoofers such as the new SUB18. Will you be going through with that or keeping your JTRs? Any comments/opinions on how you feel about bass below 20 Hz? Do you feel it is an "important" part of the experience with movies that actually have content down that low?

Thanks
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post #1412 of 5175 Old 10-29-2016, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Kain View Post
@Gooddoc

I know you are using JTR subwoofers with your M2 setup. How do you like the subwoofers? Is your room made of concrete? Do you get good ultra-low frequency response? If I recall correctly, you are considering replacing them with JBL subwoofers such as the new SUB18. Will you be going through with that or keeping your JTRs? Any comments/opinions on how you feel about bass below 20 Hz? Do you feel it is an "important" part of the experience with movies that actually have content down that low?

Thanks
The JTR's are great. Can't tell you how many times I've had guests ask me if the butt shakers came with the theater chairs or if I added them. It never gets old telling them I don't have butt shakers, that it's just the subs .

I never seriously considered the JBL subs. They're awesome, but way too expensive on a price/performance basis IMO compared to the ID companies like JTR, Seaton, etc.

I know it's easy to think that because I bought the M2's that I don't mind spending a lot of money. I do . I am a big price/performance guy and if I can get similar or better performance for less I'm going for it. The M2's represent the best price/performance in the speaker class I wanted, which was a high output constant directivity compression driver design. Sure, you can spend less than the M2, but not get the same performance. IMO . But JTR subs represent better performance at less cost. A no-brainer for me .

Edit: Oh, do I think sub 20 is important? No, not so much really. Nice to have I think for the OCD in me that wants to reproduce as much of the signal coming in as possible, but I think the real money in HT is the 25 - 60 range. Get huge output there and you won't be thinking much about sub 20 .

Last edited by Gooddoc; 10-29-2016 at 05:33 PM.
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post #1413 of 5175 Old 10-30-2016, 01:10 AM
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Edit: Oh, do I think sub 20 is important? No, not so much really. Nice to have I think for the OCD in me that wants to reproduce as much of the signal coming in as possible, but I think the real money in HT is the 25 - 60 range. Get huge output there and you won't be thinking much about sub 20 .
From my experience, if possible, you really want subs that go lower. Though I haven't looked into this carefully, whenever someone has said a film has great bass but I've found it lacking, in every case that I can recall, the bass contained nothing or very little below 20 Hz. On the other hand, IIRC, all my favorite bass experiences have contained sub 20 Hz content, usually down to 10 Hz. Anyway, just my personal experience. (My system is flat down to about 9 Hz.)
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post #1414 of 5175 Old 10-30-2016, 02:12 AM
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From my experience, if possible, you really want subs that go lower. Though I haven't looked into this carefully, whenever someone has said a film has great bass but I've found it lacking, in every case that I can recall, the bass contained nothing or very little below 20 Hz. On the other hand, IIRC, all my favorite bass experiences have contained sub 20 Hz content, usually down to 10 Hz. Anyway, just my personal experience. (My system is flat down to about 9 Hz.)
Yeah, maybe you're right. I've had great subs for so long maybe I take it for granted . The rumbles of that deep stuff is cool, but I've always thought that it wouldn't be a big deal if it weren't there. But then again, I never actually tried it.
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post #1415 of 5175 Old 10-30-2016, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
The JTR's are great. Can't tell you how many times I've had guests ask me if the butt shakers came with the theater chairs or if I added them. It never gets old telling them I don't have butt shakers, that it's just the subs .

I never seriously considered the JBL subs. They're awesome, but way too expensive on a price/performance basis IMO compared to the ID companies like JTR, Seaton, etc.

I know it's easy to think that because I bought the M2's that I don't mind spending a lot of money. I do . I am a big price/performance guy and if I can get similar or better performance for less I'm going for it. The M2's represent the best price/performance in the speaker class I wanted, which was a high output constant directivity compression driver design. Sure, you can spend less than the M2, but not get the same performance. IMO . But JTR subs represent better performance at less cost. A no-brainer for me .

Edit: Oh, do I think sub 20 is important? No, not so much really. Nice to have I think for the OCD in me that wants to reproduce as much of the signal coming in as possible, but I think the real money in HT is the 25 - 60 range. Get huge output there and you won't be thinking much about sub 20 .
Thanks.

If both subwoofers, the JTRs and JBLs, were the same price, which would you pick? Secondly, I can't recall if you've mentioned this before but what are the dimensions of your room?
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post #1416 of 5175 Old 10-30-2016, 01:44 PM
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Under 16-20hz is pointless on a slab other than to stress your house's walls. My opinion. On a suspended floor the most interesting sub frequencies are the ones that hit the floors natural frequency, or even approach it within 2 to 3 hz. Or your chair, etc.
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post #1417 of 5175 Old 10-30-2016, 04:24 PM
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Thanks.

If both subwoofers, the JTRs and JBLs, were the same price, which would you pick? Secondly, I can't recall if you've mentioned this before but what are the dimensions of your room?
I'd take the JBL's for the same price. It's a nice sub for sure, but mostly it would be just to go JBL all the way .
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post #1418 of 5175 Old 10-30-2016, 07:50 PM
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I just powered up the 4x3500 and the M2's for the first time an hour ago. . . HOLY SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT

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post #1419 of 5175 Old 10-31-2016, 03:56 AM
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I just powered up the 4x3500 and the M2's for the first time an hour ago. . . HOLY SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT
There goes another one...
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post #1420 of 5175 Old 10-31-2016, 04:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain View Post
@Gooddoc

I know you are using JTR subwoofers with your M2 setup. How do you like the subwoofers? Is your room made of concrete? Do you get good ultra-low frequency response? If I recall correctly, you are considering replacing them with JBL subwoofers such as the new SUB18. Will you be going through with that or keeping your JTRs? Any comments/opinions on how you feel about bass below 20 Hz? Do you feel it is an "important" part of the experience with movies that actually have content down that low?

Thanks
I have recently ordered two SUB18's together with the M2s for a home theater. I chose the SUB18s because my experience with the JBL Synthesis S1S-EX subs were really good and on paper, the SUB18s are better. I also like the idea of having speakers and subs from the "Master Reference" lineup.

I plan on setting them up in a month or so, and I can post my experiences. They are definately on the expensive side if you consider only SPL and frequency response, but from personal experience I think there is more to a subwoofer than just how loud and how deep it goes. This is where I think their 2242H driver excels so I hope this is the same for 2269H driver in the SUB18.
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post #1421 of 5175 Old 10-31-2016, 04:33 AM
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Originally Posted by SciFiJunkie View Post
I just powered up the 4x3500 and the M2's for the first time an hour ago. . . HOLY SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT
Awesome, aren't they? The M2 is a very special speaker.
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post #1422 of 5175 Old 10-31-2016, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by JonasHansen View Post
I have recently ordered two SUB18's together with the M2s for a home theater. I chose the SUB18s because my experience with the JBL Synthesis S1S-EX subs were really good and on paper, the SUB18s are better. I also like the idea of having speakers and subs from the "Master Reference" lineup.

I plan on setting them up in a month or so, and I can post my experiences. They are definately on the expensive side if you consider only SPL and frequency response, but from personal experience I think there is more to a subwoofer than just how loud and how deep it goes. This is where I think their 2242H driver excels so I hope this is the same for 2269H driver in the SUB18.
Thanks.

Would love to read your experience with the SUB18.

By the way, other than the JBL Synthesis S1S-EX, do you have any experience with other subwoofers?
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post #1423 of 5175 Old 10-31-2016, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by JonasHansen View Post
I have recently ordered two SUB18's together with the M2s for a home theater. I chose the SUB18s because my experience with the JBL Synthesis S1S-EX subs were really good and on paper, the SUB18s are better. I also like the idea of having speakers and subs from the "Master Reference" lineup.

I plan on setting them up in a month or so, and I can post my experiences. They are definately on the expensive side if you consider only SPL and frequency response, but from personal experience I think there is more to a subwoofer than just how loud and how deep it goes. This is where I think their 2242H driver excels so I hope this is the same for 2269H driver in the SUB18.
Yeah, can't go wrong there . The fact is that it's a ported design with tons of output and the JBL driver in there is bullet proof. You made a great choice! I'm generally of the opinion that subs SQ is very quantifiable by measurements, much moreso than speakers. But I am also of the opinion that the JBL pro subs are as good as they come, bar none. They have a premium, but it is not unwarranted.
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post #1424 of 5175 Old 10-31-2016, 08:20 AM
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Thanks.

Would love to read your experience with the SUB18.

By the way, other than the JBL Synthesis S1S-EX, do you have any experience with other subwoofers?
Have heard some different subwoofers, but not as many as some on this forum. To name a few, I have experience with:
- Velodyne DD-series
- Earthquake Supernova 15" MKVI
- LMS Ultra 5400 sealed build
- SVS PC-13 Ultra
- M&K X12 and MX350
- Procella P15 and P18
- JBL Array 1500/JBL S2S-EX

Of all the subs, I like the S1S-EX the best (and ended up with four of them). I power them with a Crown CTs2000 bridged for each sub.

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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
Yeah, can't go wrong there . The fact is that it's a ported design with tons of output and the JBL driver in there is bullet proof. You made a great choice! I'm generally of the opinion that subs SQ is very quantifiable by measurements, much moreso than speakers. But I am also of the opinion that the JBL pro subs are as good as they come, bar none. They have a premium, but it is not unwarranted.
The differences I have heard on subs measuring the same, is hard to describe without using all the audiophile'ish terms which I really don't like! The best way to describe it is speed and articulation. The subwoofers ability to start/stop and react instantly on the signal and its ability to produce details in the bass. I know this is very dependentant on the room and calibration as well.
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Last edited by JonasHansen; 10-31-2016 at 08:28 AM.
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post #1425 of 5175 Old 10-31-2016, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by JonasHansen View Post
Have heard some different subwoofers, but not as many as some on this forum. To name a few, I have experience with:
- Velodyne DD-series
- Earthquake Supernova 15" MKVI
- LMS Ultra 5400 sealed build
- SVS PC-13 Ultra
- M&K X12 and MX350
- Procella P15 and P18
- JBL Array 1500/JBL S2S-EX

Of all the subs, I like the S1S-EX the best (and ended up with four of them). I power them with a Crown CTs2000 bridged for each sub.
The JBL S2S-EX are great subs and should be considered. I have pair with my M2 and they are a great match.



http://www.jblsynthesis.com/productdetail/s2s-ex.html
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post #1426 of 5175 Old 10-31-2016, 09:34 AM
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Looks like a good choice.
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post #1427 of 5175 Old 10-31-2016, 04:30 PM
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@Kain - remember, if you end up wanting the whole system calibrated and certified by JBL Synthesis, you do need to use JBL (or Revel) subs. JBL will not certify with any other brand in the system (they will calibrate, but they won't certify, as they only certify systems where the performance of all components downstream from the SDEC are known quantities, which means Harman products).

You are not giving up anything there, though, as the JBL subs are bulletproof (as Gooddoc says) and are - again - often the subs used on the mix stages.

I just would like to echo @JonasHansen 's comment about the sound of the JBL subs, even though I hate the audiophile terms as much as he does My new S2S-EX subs sound incredibly tight and impactful, without a hint of sloppiness. Now, part of that I'm sure is that I'm using 4 subs (per Todd Welti's research) and I think I have really good temporary room correction in the form of Anthem's ARC.

This means I also want to second @adidino 's comments about the S2S-EX subs being outstanding. I have been playing the Dolby ATMOS demo clip from UNBROKEN and the impact of the bass in this scene is just astonishing. I finally have the same visceral bass in my own home theater that I experienced at the original Synthesis demo I heard using OPEN RANGE years ago - it just hits you in the chest.

This is the same scene Alcons was using during their CEDIA demo, and I have to say the combo of the LSR708s with the S2S-EX subs lacks nothing compared to the Alcons demo. I can turn this combo up extremely loud without any sign of strain and it lacks the "hardness" some reported with the Alcons. However, I think Alcons had their demo so far above reference level it's still hard for me to draw any real conclusions.

So, for demoing your M2s / 708s / SUB18s / S1S-EX / S2S-EX sub combo, may I heartily recommend the bombing run scene from UNBROKEN

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post #1428 of 5175 Old 10-31-2016, 04:31 PM
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@mmiles , I know nothing about an M2 replacement being on the drawing board.

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post #1429 of 5175 Old 10-31-2016, 04:37 PM
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I am thinking the 2269 drivers would be nearly perfect in my soon to be empty 4645b cabinets. Simple quasi DIY Sub18. Not as decor friendly tho, the JBL Pro Cinema subs are not pretty.

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post #1430 of 5175 Old 10-31-2016, 04:37 PM
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Model #? Please?

Perhaps you're referring to the 4367?
Yes, I'm sure he meant the 4367s.

I still have the CEDIA demo 4367s sitting in my mix studio and have yet to fire them up (!). Just haven't had time. I'm trying to arrange a listening party

We did get to hear them again at RMAF and I still love these speakers. I just don't have room for them so eventually they will have to find a good home. If I had an acoustically transparent screen there is no question I'd keep them. These are the same three speakers JBL used for their Synthesis demo at CEDIA:

http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...4BghmUxYrfu.97

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post #1431 of 5175 Old 10-31-2016, 05:21 PM
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Thanks JS

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post #1432 of 5175 Old 10-31-2016, 05:56 PM
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I just powered up the 4x3500 and the M2's for the first time an hour ago. . . HOLY SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT
I can't recall, what speakers did you replace?
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post #1433 of 5175 Old 10-31-2016, 06:20 PM
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I am thinking the 2269 drivers would be nearly perfect in my soon to be empty 4645b cabinets. Simple quasi DIY Sub18. Not as decor friendly tho, the JBL Pro Cinema subs are not pretty.
Veneer and/or duratex solves that problem. And fabbing up a grill cover is nearly trivial.

Do it! Do it!
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post #1434 of 5175 Old 10-31-2016, 09:06 PM
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I can't recall, what speakers did you replace?
The M2's are for the new bar area in my garage/machine shop. So they are not replacing anything as the entire 4000 sq ft. building is new. The pic I posted previously is of the bar room but it has come a long way since then. I promise to get some new pics of the room when it is done later this month. I do have DIY JBL 4311's in another part of the building that I have had forever. I know that dates me.

Our home theater is in my house and it doubles as my stereo-audiophile listening room. I never posted pics of it before but maybe I should. It is cool in its own way with suede felt covered sound dampening panels all around the room but it really does not compare to your theater. Those LR speakers are B&W Nautilus 801's. These were my best speakers!

When I turned on the M2's for the first time, it was instantly obvious to me that they are in another league from the B&W's. The 801's have a sweetness in the vocals that are world class and I have always loved them for that. But the M2's are like that on steroids. They have this effortless ability to breathe amazing delicate to powerful vocals, the artist IS in the room with you. (I was playing "The Sound of Silence" by Disturbed and "December" by Ariana Grande). I have never heard horns that sound this way (I usually shy away from audiophile systems using horns). I don't even have the M2's properly set up yet but I am having a hard time getting this smile off my face.

To quote Sam Gamgee "That is an eye-opener make no mistake".
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post #1435 of 5175 Old 10-31-2016, 09:39 PM
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The M2's are for the new bar area in my garage/machine shop. So they are not replacing anything as the entire 4000 sq ft. building is new. The pic I posted previously is of the bar room but it has come a long way since then. I promise to get some new pics of the room when it is done later this month. I do have DIY JBL 4311's in another part of the building that I have had forever. I know that dates me.

Our home theater is in my house and it doubles as my stereo-audiophile listening room. I never posted pics of it before but maybe I should. It is cool in its own way with suede felt covered sound dampening panels all around the room but it really does not compare to your theater. Those LR speakers are B&W Nautilus 801's. These were my best speakers!

When I turned on the M2's for the first time, it was instantly obvious to me that they are in another league from the B&W's. The 801's have a sweetness in the vocals that are world class and I have always loved them for that. But the M2's are like that on steroids. They have this effortless ability to breathe amazing delicate to powerful vocals, the artist IS in the room with you. (I was playing "The Sound of Silence" by Disturbed and "December" by Ariana Grande). I have never heard horns that sound this way (I usually shy away from audiophile systems using horns). I don't even have the M2's properly set up yet but I am having a hard time getting this smile off my face.

To quote Sam Gamgee "That is an eye-opener make no mistake".
Yeah, I hear you. To this day I dont believe the M2's have a "sound". They are just vessels. I know that sounds a bit hokey, but its true. They just sound like whatever they're playing. Pretty amazing actually. That will become more apparent over time. They define "neutral" and, perhaps more importantly, timbre accuracy.
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post #1436 of 5175 Old 10-31-2016, 11:36 PM
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I am thinking the 2269 drivers would be nearly perfect in my soon to be empty 4645b cabinets. Simple quasi DIY Sub18. Not as decor friendly tho, the JBL Pro Cinema subs are not pretty.
Make sure the 4645 have enough depth for the 2269 driver. It is a lot deeper than 2242 and it requires more air gap behind the driver to dissipate heat.
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post #1437 of 5175 Old 11-01-2016, 05:39 AM
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Make sure the 4645 have enough depth for the 2269 driver. It is a lot deeper than 2242 and it requires more air gap behind the driver to dissipate heat.
You are right in target, the Differential Drive® design is very deep. Will measure the depth behind the driver in the cabinet when I pull the 2242's. Several other alternatives are being considered, but the 2269H is a beastly driver that should improve the performance I loved from the 2242's.
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post #1438 of 5175 Old 11-01-2016, 02:12 PM
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Thanks for the info John.
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post #1439 of 5175 Old 11-02-2016, 02:18 PM
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Thanks JS for pointing me to this part of the thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post

As pretty much all of us in this thread know, Harman has about the only double blind speaker testing facility in the world. Yet here is Kevin Voecks - one of the biggest proponents of double blind testing there is - talking about differences very much like what you are describing, in relation to a speaker shuffler test between Revel models. The listener was Tom Norton at Sound and Vision, who during the session preferred the F208 to the Studio2 Ultima:

Kevin had the following comments on blind tests using short selections, with which I fully agree:

"As you know, many people argue about double-blind tests. Most of their arguments are without merit, but not all. One of the most important is that in my opinion and observation, it does indeed take extended listening sessions to hear the more subtle differences. The important thing is that these more subtle differences can indeed become more evident over time. Having listened to the Performa3 series and Ultima2 series both for very long periods of time, the difference at high frequencies especially is dramatic. The Ultima2 tweeter is so much "cleaner," with vastly lower distortion (even though the Performa3 distortion is far below most speakers) that it is much easier to listen to without fatigue. Combined with the advantages of low diffraction, it is the high frequency range that causes the Ultima2 series to win in long-term listening tests. Getting back to the blind testing, that kind of difference is best heard with longer sessions. There must be breaks between long sessions, as fatigue sets in, but that is where differences that audiophiles live for become apparent."


The rest of the article is here:

http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...Tb7SMRklIE6.97

I completely agree with the S&V quote regarding Kevin’s SalonII comments.

With the SalonII/Levinson system that I have evolved to, I listen (often at quite loud levels) for hours on end without any “fatigue” setting in. I could also do this in stereo with my Amati Homage as well, but could not get a surround system to my liking at that time, although the Amati’s created an awesome 3D image surrounding me partially from behind me (not directly behind) and incredible depth behind and of course in front of the speakers. The lack of fatigue at high levels was mostly in the tweeters to me, but every driver and crossover mattered.

Since I loved Logic7, I tried different centers and surrounds and amps for them to add to my Amati’s with no success. Then I left 2 channel nirvana (at least to me at that time) for an equivalent movie and multi-channel experience that was quite elusive. I got back to nirvana in multi-channel with the Salon/Levinson and pretty darn close in stereo (something magical about the Amati’s other than the Dali tweeter that they used, as I also got a set of Dali Euphonia’s and Dynaudio thinking that would sooth my quest).

Once I felt this type of nirvana and mistakenly took it for granted, I missed it and sought it again.

Almost all other system attempts that were affordable to me at least resulted in reaching an earlier point of becoming fatigued and I just couldn’t listen any more.

Thus, once I evolved to the SalonII/Levinson as the base system (for me)…I changed power sources, power cables, interconnects, RCA to XLR, speaker cables, dedicated lines, etc.

I could then detect the subtle changes (or imagined I did) by finding that the fatigue saturation point, or my brain just knowing something just wasn’t right…not scientifically.

I got to the point where I could tell immediately by listening to only a few discs and a few short bursts of certain tracks that I could feel (or not) the differences. I said feel not hear (it must be the dopamine produced in the brain from the experience).

My logic (or rationalization of nonsense?) is that our (or my) brain can detect all of the imperfections present, but chooses to ignore them (same amplified even more with video). Hence a large part of the break in period for equipment/cables, etc. is for the brain to sort out the errors and learn how to ignore them (I know about capacitors, etc.). Hopefully it does this in a reasonable period of time, or you end up sending it back.

Now when you remove most of the flaws in the “expensive” systems, any time you notice them it becomes irritating and annoying sooner an sooner. Same with learning fine wines, etc.…you get conditioned and great wine still annoys you even with one sip (I am not that way)…actually most things in life are this way.

Perhaps it is just in my nature, as I can immediately find flaws in all endeavors, in fact I am attracted to them like a magnet, which is why I had a successful career, I learned to spot errors quickly and then address them. (Not mentioning this attribute is quite a detriment in marital relationships!)

Thus, Nirvana to me is not noticing any flaws even when you try hard to listen for them (or view them) and getting that brain saying “thumbs up" for hours on end. I often need to listen twice, once to convince myself there aren't any detectable flaws, and then go back to try and just listen.
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post #1440 of 5175 Old 11-02-2016, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post

Kevin had the following comments on blind tests using short selections, with which I fully agree:

"As you know, many people argue about double-blind tests. Most of their arguments are without merit, but not all. One of the most important is that in my opinion and observation, it does indeed take extended listening sessions to hear the more subtle differences. The important thing is that these more subtle differences can indeed become more evident over time. Having listened to the Performa3 series and Ultima2 series both for very long periods of time, the difference at high frequencies especially is dramatic. The Ultima2 tweeter is so much "cleaner," with vastly lower distortion (even though the Performa3 distortion is far below most speakers) that it is much easier to listen to without fatigue. Combined with the advantages of low diffraction, it is the high frequency range that causes the Ultima2 series to win in long-term listening tests. Getting back to the blind testing, that kind of difference is best heard with longer sessions. There must be breaks between long sessions, as fatigue sets in, but that is where differences that audiophiles live for become apparent."


The rest of the article is here:

http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...Tb7SMRklIE6.97
I don't know how I missed this post. I love the sanity of Kevin V on this hot button topic. Many AVSrs do not understand the scientific rigor required to have a valid blind - or double blind - test. I used to have the international standard for detecting small, but statistically significant, differences. It was very intensive, with multiple controls that are very difficult to properly design an empkoy.

Done well, they are very powerful. Done improperly they can be fun but not very informative.
John Schuermann and Goalline like this.

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