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post #1891 of 4920 Old 01-08-2017, 09:05 PM
 
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Anything new from CES ?
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post #1892 of 4920 Old 01-09-2017, 04:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12B4A View Post
Reading through the rest of his posts, he seems to have a lot of experience. However, he's starting off with many incorrect premises about the basic technology that it's hard to trust his conclusion. It's probably best to let him live in his world.
That's what I was thinking. Even hearing them probably wouldn't change his mind, unless it was during a double blind test.
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post #1893 of 4920 Old 01-09-2017, 07:57 AM
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3900's

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Originally Posted by mmiles View Post
Curious any comments on the S4700 and S3900 the cousins of the M2?
I have the 3900's currently. They are an excellent and very underrated speaker IMO. I've also heard the M2's. The M2's are better of course, but the biggest difference IMO was in the Bass. The M2's are a true, full-range speaker (and not many speakers really are). The 3900's image like crazy, are dynamic and do an excellent job down to about 35hz. They do hit low, but don't have the absolute room shaking impact that the M2's do. But, with a subwoofer to give me that extra Thump (I cross them at 40hz) - they are excellent.

I've also heard the 4700's, and I prefer the 3900's

But, one thing I really like is they are very dynamic, but they do not get bright or harsh in any way, even as the volumes approach 90db's +.

If I had the room/space/funding for the M2's would I have them (probably, though I would look at the 9900's also), but I'm happy with the 3900's.
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post #1894 of 4920 Old 01-09-2017, 06:35 PM
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GG,

Thanks!

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post #1895 of 4920 Old 01-09-2017, 08:02 PM
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So apparently the demo discs are better than the mastered theatrical releases for atmos
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post #1896 of 4920 Old 01-09-2017, 08:13 PM
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So apparently the demo discs are better than the mastered theatrical releases for atmos
If your expectation is that ***** is flying around your head for the whole movie, then you may be disappointed. .

Some use the heights sparingly, some more aggressively. Overall, I find the heights to a great addition to my system, and some movies have done a great job with Atmos.

Just off the top off my head I recently watched a horror flick(can't remember the name), and there was furniture being moved around a floor above where the camera and characters were. You could hear the furniture moving back and forth above your head for real. Haha. That was cool.
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post #1897 of 4920 Old 01-09-2017, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
If your expectation is that ***** is flying around your head for the whole movie, then you may be disappointed. .

Some use the heights sparingly, some more aggressively. Overall, I find the heights to a great addition to my system, and some movies have done a great job with Atmos.

Just off the top off my head I recently watched a horror flick(can't remember the name), and there was furniture being moved around a floor above where the camera and characters were. You could hear the furniture moving back and forth above your head for real. Haha. That was cool.
I know they're going overboard with the effects on the demos, but they go way under with the movies I've seen so far. Which isn't a lot, admittedly. The demos are sweet though. I hope they get a little more aggressive with their mixes.
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post #1898 of 4920 Old 01-09-2017, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bartl007 View Post
I think of JBL synthesis as the Apple of high end audio. They want you to use their family of products and nothing else. It's a very closed system. I think this is one reason Dennis Erskine rarely specs JBL in his builds.
Dennis is a dealer. He spec's what he sells. I think he avoids JBL because his other brands are more profitable for him. I don't think it has anything to do with performance or 'freedom of choice'. Dennis is one of the most restrictive designers out there in terms of what he will incorporate into his design.

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Say you had a full synthesis system prior to Atmos being released to the consumer market, now you want to upgrade to overhead speakers and wides for more immersion. With JBL synth, you're somewhat restricted to the speakers JBL has available with their dispersion patterns/SPL capabilities, the processors capable of their proprietary room correction, etc.
If I'm not mistaken, JBL Synthesis was the first to offer Atmos in the home. They worked out a deal with Dolby to use their CP850 which was the first Atmos decoder. It worked for both cinema & home, but Dolby wouldn't allow it to be purchased for the home, with Synthesis being an exception. Trinnov came later, and they switched to that.

As far as speakers go, they have packaged systems, but they'll allow other gear from Harman to be used, and in some cases even gear from other manufactures, especially by designers that they trust know what they're doing. As an example, the SDEC is considered the heart of every Synthesis system, but Keith gets a pass with Trinnov/Lake.

It is somewhat of a closed system, but from a practical standpoint so is every other speaker manufacturer. If you had all Triad speakers, or all Procella speakers, and Atmos came out, they're both going to recommend you wait for a 'timbre' matched version of their speakers. You could say "hell with it, I'm not waiting" and get Kef or Tannoy, but there's no stopping you from doing that with a Synthesis system either.

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I never quite understood the relationship between the computational fluid dynamics based EQ system utilized by KYDG (BassCAMP) and the one JBL uses (FLO). I'm not sure if JBL licenses this tech from Keith's firm or vice versa?
I asked John before and he said it's Keith's tech which JBL uses

My understanding is it starts with the Welti work for sub placement. Call that v1.0. In the white paper, under "Limiting Assumptions", Todd underlined that the model is for rectangular rooms. Presumably that's to make the math easier. No soffit, riser, stage, 'L' or otherwise irregular shaped room. It's an imaginary shoe box with nothing in it. They pre-computed locations that offered the smoothest seat to seat response in their theoretical rectangular room, which can serve as best practice starting points in real rooms in lieu of more advanced techniques.

v2.0 was SFM in the SDEC. You place the subs either using the Welti method or as best you can for your room. The room doesn't have to be a rectangle. The SDEC measures each sub and manipulates the delays to optimize the smoothing effects of multiple subs. Because it's measuring, it's able to "hear" and attempt to compensate for real world irregularities introduced by the room or sub location. Then with seat to seat variance minimized (which normal EQ can't do), they apply global EQ to flatten / adjust to taste & integrate with the mains.

v3.0 was BassCamp. SFM does the best it can, but it's limited by the subs physical placement within the room, which may be sub-optimal. With BassCamp, they model the room with everything in it, then use CFD math to see how the subs in various simulated locations work out in terms of seat to seat response (based on the subs interaction with each other and the room). They iterate through thousands (or tens of thousands) of different location combinations, find the best results, visualize & present it. That gives you the best locations to put the subs in 3D space.
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post #1899 of 4920 Old 01-10-2017, 04:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12B4A View Post
Reading through the rest of his posts, he seems to have a lot of experience. However, he's starting off with many incorrect premises about the basic technology that it's hard to trust his conclusion. It's probably best to let him live in his world.
Another thing he mentioned is that a "good" 15" driver starts to break up around 200Hz, due to the mass of the cone at those frequencies. I know larger drivers have a hard time producing higher frequencies due to the mass of their cone, I didn't know it was as low as 200Hz for a 15" driver. Is there any indication of this on the 15" driver in the M2 between 200Hz and the 800Hz crossover to the CD? I'm guessing either their isn't or if there is, it's not audible/noticeable.
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post #1900 of 4920 Old 01-10-2017, 07:55 AM
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rabident: What does SFM stand for, out of curiosity? I am going to have to look up what is available in the public domain on those problems. That is cool stuff. I did a bit of similar stuff in grad school, more specifically computational thermodynamics, but fluid dynamics is one level higher in that it is 2nd order is all dimensions, rather than single order in one and 2nd in the others. I imagine the boundary value conditions are rather complex.

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post #1901 of 4920 Old 01-10-2017, 08:18 AM
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One poster claimed to see it on the driver's response data sheet. I dunno. It seems like a conclusion looking for data.
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...p?33565-2216Nd

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post #1902 of 4920 Old 01-10-2017, 08:40 AM
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I think evidence of breakup is most often easiest to see when looking at the response together with the impedance. Usually the impedance wiggles (if not overly smoothed) a bit lower than the response peaks/dips.

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post #1903 of 4920 Old 01-10-2017, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonasHansen View Post
Doing the calibration today of my M2-theater and just did a quick measurement from 5 feet distance with only the M2 presets in the BSS.

The flatness of the frequency response is really impressive!

EDIT: 80hz high-pass is applied... Just if you are wondering about the low freq. response.
Initial measurement of M2/Sub18 stereo system taken at seating position 12' from speakers, and with JBL presets in the three I-Tech5000s with 80hz crossover. Moving the sub would not effect the dip at around 100hz, I assume. I wonder if going into System Architect with the Crown DSP is advisable to correct this. The dip at the upper frequency is puzzling. Any suggestions?
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post #1904 of 4920 Old 01-10-2017, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12B4A View Post
One poster claimed to see it on the driver's response data sheet. I dunno. It seems like a conclusion looking for data.
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...p?33565-2216Nd
Yeah that's what it sounds like. I find it unlikely that they noticed it and Harman, with all the time and effort they put into this speaker, didn't. And if they did, it must of been negligible or inaudible.
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post #1905 of 4920 Old 01-10-2017, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioJosh View Post
rabident: What does SFM stand for, out of curiosity? I am going to have to look up what is available in the public domain on those problems. That is cool stuff. I did a bit of similar stuff in grad school, more specifically computational thermodynamics, but fluid dynamics is one level higher in that it is 2nd order is all dimensions, rather than single order in one and 2nd in the others. I imagine the boundary value conditions are rather complex.
HARMAN Sound Field Management (SFM) system
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post #1906 of 4920 Old 01-10-2017, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganduy View Post
Initial measurement of M2/Sub18 stereo system taken at seating position 12' from speakers, and with JBL presets in the three I-Tech5000s with 80hz crossover. Moving the sub would not effect the dip at around 100hz, I assume. I wonder if going into System Architect with the Crown DSP is advisable to correct this. The dip at the upper frequency is puzzling. Any suggestions?
Are you sure the subwoofer is on? Or the level is correct?

Your bass drops off 20 DB under 70 hertz
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post #1907 of 4920 Old 01-10-2017, 05:00 PM
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Are you sure the subwoofer is on? Or the level is correct?

Your bass drops off 20 DB under 70 hertz
Sure enough, the Crown serving the sub somehow got deselected from bridged to dual mode make it output much less into the sub.
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post #1908 of 4920 Old 01-10-2017, 06:14 PM
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Quick question for you M2 owners. Mostly about center channel options. I know the absolute best and ultimate center would be a third M2, but since it's not recommended they be laid down on their side and I don't currently have an acoustically transparent screen, I was going through center options in my mind, IF I were to sell my Cat 12C's for M2's after hearing them this upcoming weekend. I'm just wondering what would make the best center in my situation. Basically it's looking like

Phantom center vs. LSR708i vs Cat 12C (keeping the center Cat 12C). The Cat 12C makes one HELL of a center channel as you can imagine and would have no problem keeping up with M2's, I'm sure. I'm just wondering how bad of a timbre match they would be.

One more stupid question. If I got a DCi 4/300 (4 channel amp) can I use 2 of those channels for a center 708i bi-amping it, and the remaining 2 channels for the surround left and right channels, or if you bi-amp, does it have to be all or none?
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post #1909 of 4920 Old 01-10-2017, 07:06 PM
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M2 has to be biamped whereas the 708 does not (most don't from what I gathered)

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post #1910 of 4920 Old 01-10-2017, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackdevil77 View Post
Quick question for you M2 owners. Mostly about center channel options. I know the absolute best and ultimate center would be a third M2, but since it's not recommended they be laid down on their side and I don't currently have an acoustically transparent screen, I was going through center options in my mind, IF I were to sell my Cat 12C's for M2's after hearing them this upcoming weekend. I'm just wondering what would make the best center in my situation. Basically it's looking like

Phantom center vs. LSR708i vs Cat 12C (keeping the center Cat 12C). The Cat 12C makes one HELL of a center channel as you can imagine and would have no problem keeping up with M2's, I'm sure. I'm just wondering how bad of a timbre match they would be.

One more stupid question. If I got a DCi 4/300 (4 channel amp) can I use 2 of those channels for a center 708i bi-amping it, and the remaining 2 channels for the surround left and right channels, or if you bi-amp, does it have to be all or none?
Hard to say how you hear things. Personally, I don't think the Cat's and the M2's sound alike, although I haven't had them in the same room. But it's really down to your tolerance of any differences. I also thought the Danley and M2 sounded very different, but another M2 who owns both feels the difference is small. So who knows. You can always keep the Cat12 to see if you like it in the center. Try it, see how you like it, and sell it if you don't.
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post #1911 of 4920 Old 01-11-2017, 12:10 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackdevil77 View Post
Quick question for you M2 owners. Mostly about center channel options. I know the absolute best and ultimate center would be a third M2, but since it's not recommended they be laid down on their side and I don't currently have an acoustically transparent screen, I was going through center options in my mind, IF I were to sell my Cat 12C's for M2's after hearing them this upcoming weekend. I'm just wondering what would make the best center in my situation. Basically it's looking like

Phantom center vs. LSR708i vs Cat 12C (keeping the center Cat 12C). The Cat 12C makes one HELL of a center channel as you can imagine and would have no problem keeping up with M2's, I'm sure. I'm just wondering how bad of a timbre match they would be.


One more stupid question. If I got a DCi 4/300 (4 channel amp) can I use 2 of those channels for a center 708i bi-amping it, and the remaining 2 channels for the surround left and right channels, or if you bi-amp, does it have to be all or none?
You really want three identical LCR speakers at all the same height. I wouldn't sacrifice that at the level you want to play at.
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post #1912 of 4920 Old 01-11-2017, 04:29 AM
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Hard to say how you hear things. Personally, I don't think the Cat's and the M2's sound alike, although I haven't had them in the same room. But it's really down to your tolerance of any differences. I also thought the Danley and M2 sounded very different, but another M2 who owns both feels the difference is small. So who knows. You can always keep the Cat12 to see if you like it in the center. Try it, see how you like it, and sell it if you don't.
They probably don't. I just know the Cat makes a hell of a center with gobs of dynamics and headroom. They're just severely mismatched. I'm just not sure what would make a better center. The 708 which is probably a better timbre match, or the Cat 12C's which would probably be able to better match the dynamics and output. I may try it as you said and see what it sounds like.

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You really want three identical LCR speakers at all the same height. I wouldn't sacrifice that at the level you want to play at.
I know, in a perfect world I would get a third M2, vertically placed at identical height behind an acoustically transparent screen. In my current room, a center M2 just isn't possible, unless JBL makes a horizontally oriented M2. But I'd rather have identical L/C/R anyway.

When I move into a new house in a few years, I want to build a dedicated room completely from scratch. It'll be an extension on the house. Then I'll be able to build the room around the equipment I plan on using.
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post #1913 of 4920 Old 01-11-2017, 07:53 AM
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You can biamp the 708i and use the two remaining for surrounds. The tuning files have options for biamping, although you don't have to biamp. I'd probably opt for the 708 center.
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post #1914 of 4920 Old 01-11-2017, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Blackdevil77 View Post
Another thing he mentioned is that a "good" 15" driver starts to break up around 200Hz, due to the mass of the cone at those frequencies. I know larger drivers have a hard time producing higher frequencies due to the mass of their cone, I didn't know it was as low as 200Hz for a 15" driver. Is there any indication of this on the 15" driver in the M2 between 200Hz and the 800Hz crossover to the CD? I'm guessing either their isn't or if there is, it's not audible/noticeable.
These arguments are exactly why that guy shouldn't be taken seriously. Plenty of 15" drivers are capable of playing up to or above 1 kHz without encountering break-up. This claim betrays a strong ignorance as well as prejudice against pro-style drivers and pro-style system designs in general.

FWIW, while sound quality is sometimes sacrificed for output in pro applications, this is a design choice rather than a strict consequence of using a system with pro-style components. IMO, most hifi-style systems sacrifice too much in sound quality and output capability in order to make systems more marketable. As examples, horns or waveguides are avoided because buyers think horns sound bad. Large baffles and large drivers are avoided because of "wife acceptance" issues or myths about large woofers being "too slow". Self-powered active-crossover designs are avoided in high end products because they prevent people from using their overpriced audiophile amps, etc.

I doubt the hifi market will be around much longer with younger people ignoring all the marketing B.S. and primarily choosing audio products that deliver convenience instead, albeit with mediocre sound quality. It's hard to blame them, given the lack-luster performance offered by most "hifi" solutions and the poor quality of audio exhibited almost everywhere these days. Few people even know what a good system sounds like.
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post #1915 of 4920 Old 01-11-2017, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by AudioJosh View Post
You can biamp the 708i and use the two remaining for surrounds. The tuning files have options for biamping, although you don't have to biamp. I'd probably opt for the 708 center.
That's probably what I'll end up doing then. A DCi 4/300 with 2 channels for a bi-amped center 708i and the remaining 2 channels for the left and right surround speakers.

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Originally Posted by awediophile View Post
These arguments are exactly why that guy shouldn't be taken seriously. Plenty of 15" drivers are capable of playing up to or above 1 kHz without encountering break-up. This claim betrays a strong ignorance as well as prejudice against pro-style drivers and pro-style system designs in general.

FWIW, while sound quality is sometimes sacrificed for output in pro applications, this is a design choice rather than a strict consequence of using a system with pro-style components. IMO, most hifi-style systems sacrifice too much in sound quality and output capability in order to make systems more marketable. As examples, horns or waveguides are avoided because buyers think horns sound bad. Large baffles and large drivers are avoided because of "wife acceptance" issues or myths about large woofers being "too slow". Self-powered active-crossover designs are avoided in high end products because they prevent people from using their overpriced audiophile amps, etc.

I doubt the hifi market will be around much longer with younger people ignoring all the marketing B.S. and primarily choosing audio products that deliver convenience instead, albeit with mediocre sound quality. It's hard to blame them, given the lack-luster performance offered by most "hifi" solutions and the poor quality of audio exhibited almost everywhere these days. Few people even know what a good system sounds like.
This sounds more in line with what I thought to be true. I didn't think a 15" driver started breaking up and losing control as low as 200hz (obviously depending on it's designed intended use).

And yes, I care about sound quality and performance above all other things. That's why I look at pro stuff and stuff like the JTR/Seaton offerings. Not downplaying other offerings, there are plenty that actually are very good, but at wider cost to performance ratio.
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post #1916 of 4920 Old 01-14-2017, 04:37 PM
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There's some M2's with iTech 12k's on Audiogon if you're wanting to pull the trigger
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post #1917 of 4920 Old 01-14-2017, 06:37 PM
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There's some M2's with iTech 12k's on Audiogon if you're wanting to pull the trigger
I just saw that. I'm friends with a pro retailer on facebook. I didn't connect the dots realizing he's able to get the M2's as well. The price he gave me for everything, brand new, shipped is close to what that ad is. Only difference is, that's with the 5000's. I'm sure there has to be some kind of DSP limit in place to keep the full power of the 12k's from going into the M2's. The 12k's are no joke.

What I'm gonna try to do is get the M2's brand new from my facebook friend, assuming I don't get a similar deal elsewhere and get the I-tech's used. Everything should be about 10k.
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post #1918 of 4920 Old 01-14-2017, 09:54 PM
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15" drivers can play above 1khz but will usually start to exhibit beaming. Whenever the wavelength is shorter than the diameter of the driver beaming starts to occur, some call this break up. About 900hz has a wavelength of 15" but actual moving surface area of the driver might be less so it is possible to go to 1khz. About 13.5" is about 1khz. Either way it is definitely more than 200hz.
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post #1919 of 4920 Old 01-15-2017, 01:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellebob View Post
15" drivers can play above 1khz but will usually start to exhibit beaming. Whenever the wavelength is shorter than the diameter of the driver beaming starts to occur, some call this break up. About 900hz has a wavelength of 15" but actual moving surface area of the driver might be less so it is possible to go to 1khz. About 13.5" is about 1khz. Either way it is definitely more than 200hz.
I've never heard of beaming in a driver being referred to as break-up. But anyway, this assessment is quite correct. I would add that for a cylindrical piston, at least, the -6 dB point is about about +/- 45 degrees when the wavelength is the same as the radiator diameter. Typically, this would be described as a 90 degree pattern. As frequencies increase, the beam narrows. As frequencies decrease, the beam widens until the radiation is constrained primarily by the baffle, until its dimension is too small to affect the wave and the pattern becomes omnidirectional.

The reason I bring this up is that the M2 appears to follow some other 2-way waveguide-based designs in which the XO frequency is chosen to roughly match the beam width of the woofer to the dispersion of the waveguide. For the M2, the waveguide pattern is roughly 120 degrees, so it makes sense that the XO falls a bit lower than 900 Hz. In any case, the relatively smooth off-axis response through the XO (albeit, smoother in the horizontal than the vertical plane) is one of the key characteristics that make the speaker sound so good.

So it goes without saying that the aforementioned critic of the M2 does not understand the design or its merits.
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post #1920 of 4920 Old 01-26-2017, 03:03 PM
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Something interesting happened today.



Thanks to @Gooddoc for inviting me to his home and letting me lug my Catalyst 12Cs with me. I'll post my thoughts once I get home. Mark, feel free to post anything you wish, no need to wait for me.
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