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post #1981 of 4913 Old 02-01-2017, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by thrang View Post
Me too....
Are you not happy with the SCL's then? What issues have you encountered with them?
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post #1982 of 4913 Old 02-01-2017, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Are you not happy with the SCL's then? What issues have you encountered with them?

They are really very good, don't get me wrong. I just feel they sound more like an uncle to the rest of the line, not brethren... I think it's the dynamics that is most different, and perhaps the sonic signature from a large (wall) baffle. To me it alters the sound compared to cabinet models.

Just me surmising...
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post #1983 of 4913 Old 02-01-2017, 09:24 AM
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It would probably "normalize" if the other cabinet speakers were flush mounted. SBIR etc.

Life is Lambertian
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post #1984 of 4913 Old 02-01-2017, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by 12B4A View Post
It would probably "normalize" if the other cabinet speakers were flush mounted. SBIR etc.
Yes, degrade all the other ones...
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post #1985 of 4913 Old 02-01-2017, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by thrang View Post
Well, as we get older we tend to get larger...so to do aspects of a maturing home theater....708's on top....
So now you are all JBL? Pictures please
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post #1986 of 4913 Old 02-01-2017, 09:31 AM
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So now you are all JBL? Pictures please
I've neglected my build thread for some time need to take some new photos...should have a quick ones I can post...I'll check soon, but I'm too busy watching my AAPL stock value...
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post #1987 of 4913 Old 02-01-2017, 09:49 AM
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post #1988 of 4913 Old 02-01-2017, 09:52 AM
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Sweet

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Originally Posted by thrang View Post
a few...









You have gone pro all around! The sound must be phenomenal

What pre/pro do you use?

Would love to come for a listen but am on the other side of the US
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post #1989 of 4913 Old 02-01-2017, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by wse View Post
You have gone pro all around! The sound must be phenomenal

What pre/pro do you use?

Would love to come for a listen but am on the other side of the US
MX160

There's a new JBL pro processor coming, the Intonato 24, which I may look at...still need a prepro, but for switching and codec decoding, not correction - but have no idea how it will compare to RP which l really admire compared to anything else I've heard.

And yes, by far, and especially with the 708's up top, I've never been more please with the sound in the theater. There is still some tweaking re room modes I want to look at one day, but no rush...

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post #1990 of 4913 Old 02-01-2017, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
If your expectation is that ***** is flying around your head for the whole movie, then you may be disappointed. .

Some use the heights sparingly, some more aggressively. Overall, I find the heights to a great addition to my system, and some movies have done a great job with Atmos.

Just off the top off my head I recently watched a horror flick(can't remember the name), and there was furniture being moved around a floor above where the camera and characters were. You could hear the furniture moving back and forth above your head for real. Haha. That was cool.
LOL - reminds me of my wife's review of ATTACK OF THE CLONES when we watched it last year in preparation for THE FORCE AWAKENS:

"It was just two and half hours of s**t flying around."

LOL again, as I remember her saying that.

Of course, I've always been a STAR TREK guy, so heartily agreed.

Best ATMOS mix I've heard so far is UNBROKEN.

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post #1991 of 4913 Old 02-01-2017, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by AudioJosh View Post
rabident: What does SFM stand for, out of curiosity? I am going to have to look up what is available in the public domain on those problems. That is cool stuff. I did a bit of similar stuff in grad school, more specifically computational thermodynamics, but fluid dynamics is one level higher in that it is 2nd order is all dimensions, rather than single order in one and 2nd in the others. I imagine the boundary value conditions are rather complex.
Maybe already defined by someone else (I'm late to the party), but it stands for Sound Field Management. It's what gives you the excellent blend between the subs and satellites as well as flat and even bass seat to seat. It's also one of the things that differentiates a Synthesis cal vs. a JBL Pro cal - JBL Pro cals tend to be for the mix position only.

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post #1992 of 4913 Old 02-01-2017, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by AdvancedTheater View Post
Anything new from CES ?
Nothing from Synthesis, other than the JBL 4312SEs (which are an anniversary version Studio Monitor series speaker). Most of the new product was Revel - the F208Bes and M106Bes (discussed extensively in the Revel thread).

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post #1993 of 4913 Old 02-01-2017, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by ganduy View Post
After adjusting listening position and sub location utilizing REW, I finally have the JBL Sub18 blended with the M2s to my satisfaction. I gave it the acid test, playing Dark Side of the Moon SACD, and it was the most amazing sound I have ever heard from a stereo system. In addition to providing palpable base, the sub appears to allow the two 15" drivers in the M2s to breath and express their full dynamic range capability. Breathtaking.

Oddly enough, the room measures about the same with or without the four 8 foot 18" bass tube traps. I will leave the lateral first reflections alone rather than mess them up with treatment, but have several ceiling first reflection treatment options under consideration. So, other than cautiously experimenting with a little bit of acoustical treatment, I have finally reached audio Nirvana.

Thank you, Harman.
Great to hear (no pun intended). People really shouldn't write off the JBL subs just due to cost. As I wrote to someone else today:

I know the S2S-EX subs are pricey, but I can personally attest to how incredible they sound. I have never heard the JTRs, so can’t realty make a comparison, but I do know that in terms of impact and tightness I have never experienced a better sub than the S2S-EX. I’ve heard SVS, HSU, etc, and they do perform well, but in terms of sheer visceral impact the JBLs have put everything else I’ve ever had here to shame.

I'm sure the SUB18 just takes that up to 11

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post #1994 of 4913 Old 02-01-2017, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
Great to hear (no pun intended). People really shouldn't write off the JBL subs just due to cost. As I wrote to someone else today:

I know the S2S-EX subs are pricey, but I can personally attest to how incredible they sound. I have never heard the JTRs, so can’t realty make a comparison, but I do know that in terms of impact and tightness I have never experienced a better sub than the S2S-EX. I’ve heard SVS, HSU, etc, and they do perform well, but in terms of sheer visceral impact the JBLs have put everything else I’ve ever had here to shame.

I'm sure the SUB18 just takes that up to 11
Nice subs, but I'll stick with 4 LMS ultras and less Crown amps for bass. Especially losing almost half an octave of bass that is able to be heard.
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post #1995 of 4913 Old 02-01-2017, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Jsin_N View Post
Nice subs, but I'll stick with 4 LMS ultras and less Crown amps for bass. Especially losing almost half an octave of bass that is able to be heard.
The SUB18 seems to have usable output below 20hz in room. I always wondered why these offerings from JBL don't extend as low as some other designs. I don't doubt that they probably sound wonderful and are as visceral as John is saying. My Seaton Submersives have that extremely tight punchy sound as well. I can't compare it to the synthesis stuff, but I would like to reserve judgement until I hear them. As soon as I get a chance, I'm gonna visit the Harman store in NYC.
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post #1996 of 4913 Old 02-01-2017, 06:19 PM
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-6 db point is at 23hz. I'm sure nice impulse and transient response for a driver along with the output (upper low bass?), but for $3250, just for the one 18" sub, there is sure as hell a lot easier and cheaper ways to get great bass. Then tack on the price for an Itech.

Just my 2 cents.

I'm sure it is awesome, but not for that cost. They have to make it more reasonable.
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post #1997 of 4913 Old 02-02-2017, 03:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Jsin_N View Post
-6 db point is at 23hz. I'm sure nice impulse and transient response for a driver along with the output (upper low bass?), but for $3250, just for the one 18" sub, there is sure as hell a lot easier and cheaper ways to get great bass. Then tack on the price for an Itech.

Just my 2 cents.

I'm sure it is awesome, but not for that cost. They have to make it more reasonable.
Yeah I understand what you're saying. That's one of the reasons I'm keeping my Submersive HP's. I'm curious why they don't design their subs to extend deeper. I'm sure they can make subs that go lower, but it seems like they just don't make them. I wonder if it's because they feel it's unnecessary, or does increasing the extension compromise something else? I wouldn't think so, but I'd like to hear their answer.
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post #1998 of 4913 Old 02-02-2017, 06:21 AM
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One can learn a lot from all the bench-marking data they've taken at Databass
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post #1999 of 4913 Old 02-02-2017, 10:43 AM
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I don't have a definitive answer as far as JBL is concerned, but let me give a perspective from the point of the mixer. If you put up this question - "do we need bass response below 20 hz in our home theater subwoofers?" - on a pro forum like Gearslutz or Pro Tools, the film and music mixers will tell you "we didn't put anything there." Yes, there are recordings that you can find that have energy below 20 hz, but it's extremely likely that the mixing engineer or artist never heard it on the mastering stage (most mix stages are lucky to get down to 20 hz). And we are talking probably less than 1% of all music and movie mixes that would even have any intentional energy that low anyway. What gets through is likely slop ("slop" as in it was unintended).

I imagine JBL's answer is that going that low is not really relevant to the artist's intent, plus that going that low requires performance compromises elsewhere within the operational range of the subwoofer.

To my point:

http://www.genelec.com/studio-monito...udio-subwoofer

The Genelec sub I linked to above is in many film mix studios (as are the JBLs discussed above). From the Genelec specs:

Low frequencies are extended down to 25 Hz, while Genelec’s Laminar Spiral Enclosure (LSE™) ensures unwavering precision and enhanced, colour-free low end capacity.


You can see that same Genelec subwoofer in Scott Wilkinson's talk with Tim Hoogenakker on Home Theater Geeks - Tim spends a lot of time translating Dolby ATMOS theatrical mixes to home theater mixes. It's a great listen:


Lots of studios are putting in M2s, LSR7s, etc (http://www.jblpro.com/www/news/news-...7.1-nyc-stages) combined with JBL subs, and it's interesting that the SUB18 was created for accurate monitoring / mixing of films and music with intense low bass content.

Bass extender plugins are often used to give modern soundtracks that extra "boom":

http://www.musicradar.com/news/tech/...plugins-639124

...but again, is the mixing engineer even hearing all of the subterranean effects that these are creating? Probably not.
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post #2000 of 4913 Old 02-02-2017, 11:27 AM
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Seems dangerous to pass these low frequencies on to consumers systems without knowing what's going through then. Why not just filter it out to be sure?

Also, it still goes back to cost. Take a look at the theater 4645c JBL sub measurements and tell me you cant do better elsewhere for cheaper. I'm guessing the 137db max output for the sub18 is also around 80-100 hertz.

Great subs, and I would like to have all JBL, but that price/performance ratio though...

More power to anyone that can afford them, but I want 4 and that price is insane.
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post #2001 of 4913 Old 02-02-2017, 11:34 AM
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I get your point. Would love to do some A/B listening tests sometime. And of course the JBL subs we are talking about are engineered for the abuse they would get on a mix stage, so that factors into cost as well. For HT, that over engineering may be overkill

IIRC it was pointed out in one of the threads about Blu-rays that contain sub 20 hz content that it's becoming less and less common. It's possible they are filtering it out, especially as remixing for the home becomes more and more of a thing.

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post #2002 of 4913 Old 02-02-2017, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
I don't have a definitive answer as far as JBL is concerned, but let me give a perspective from the point of the mixer. If you put up this question - "do we need bass response below 20 hz in our home theater subwoofers?" - on a pro forum like Gearslutz or Pro Tools, the film and music mixers will tell you "we didn't put anything there." Yes, there are recordings that you can find that have energy below 20 hz, but it's extremely likely that the mixing engineer or artist never heard it on the mastering stage (most mix stages are lucky to get down to 20 hz). And we are talking probably less than 1% of all music and movie mixes that would even have any intentional energy that low anyway. What gets through is likely slop ("slop" as in it was unintended).
+1 million.

Also to add to what that accidental "slop" in the recording comes from, it is often the building's HVAC system, distant traffic (truck/bus) rumble, or for studios in major cities, subway rumble. Recording studios and soundstages are very well isolated for a good reason but no matter how hard they try that super deep ~ 20Hz rumble from the outside, industrial world can slip past even the thickest layers of sound absorbing, fiberglass wall panel/ room treatments.
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post #2003 of 4913 Old 02-02-2017, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
+1 million.

Also to add to what that accidental "slop" in the recording comes from, it is often the building's HVAC system, distant traffic (truck/bus) rumble, or for studios in major cities, subway rumble. Recording studios and soundstages are very well isolated for a good reason but no matter how hard they try that super deep ~ 20Hz rumble from the outside, industrial world can slip past even the thickest layers of sound absorbing, fiberglass room treatments.
+2 million

I know exactly what you speak of. Often when I'm doing dialogue editing on a film, one of the first things I do is filter out all the low bass frequencies, as they are just "slop" and take up an awful lot of energy. Usually they are exactly the types of sounds you mention - traffic, HVAC, etc. Door slams create HUGE peaks that need to be tamed.
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post #2004 of 4913 Old 02-02-2017, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Jsin_N View Post
Seems dangerous to pass these low frequencies on to consumers systems without knowing what's going through then. Why not just filter it out to be sure?.
Filtering out the very deep bass is exceeding common, especially for Rock music made prior to digital [because it is hard for cartridges to tack at high levels].

Turn on your subs, or use good headphones, and listen at a good level to the nice swirling around the room of the descending bass note in Heart's classic, "Magic Man", for an example. [Jump to 4m in and listen to the deep note at least until 4m17s]:

Pretty pleasing and deep, right? Well interestingly it actually has gone through a steep filter and there's pretty much no serious content below 50Hz!




People often think they need perfect 20Hz or lower bass extension but they often don't. There are some recordings that do truly get that low but they aren't exactly common and most that I know of aren't rock music.
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When I was mastering the recordings I did in concert halls of orchestras (and everything else), I used a high pass filter that cut anything below 20 Hz to avoid problems of room and stage rumble. I wanted to avoid wasting amplifier power trying to reproduce that junk and make sure I didn't release material that could damage woofers.

Unless you are using true full range monitors (with or with out subs) or looking at spectral analysis, you don't know what might be living down there.

I used a very expensive linear phase EQ (Algorithmix PEQ Red) plugin Bob Katz recommended for that function.

http://www.algorithmix.com/en/peq1.htm
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Ditto on everything I've done...
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As long as they don't fall down, the 708's are incredible as top/height speakers...I am getting imaging above me that is creating precise sound placement like the bed layer...a more significant upgrade then I anticipated...

Thanks to my dealer adidino for his assistance...
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What kind of pricing are people getting on these? Discount off MSRP? Anyone bought in Canada?

Please PM me.

Thanks.
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post #2009 of 4913 Old 02-06-2017, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jsin_N View Post
Seems dangerous to pass these low frequencies on to consumers systems without knowing what's going through then. Why not just filter it out to be sure?

Also, it still goes back to cost. Take a look at the theater 4645c JBL sub measurements and tell me you cant do better elsewhere for cheaper. I'm guessing the 137db max output for the sub18 is also around 80-100 hertz.

Great subs, and I would like to have all JBL, but that price/performance ratio though...

More power to anyone that can afford them, but I want 4 and that price is insane.
More and more often we are seeing pretty steep filtering in movie soundtracks, but there are still some gems coming out that have the goods all the way down to the single digits.

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+2 million

I know exactly what you speak of. Often when I'm doing dialogue editing on a film, one of the first things I do is filter out all the low bass frequencies, as they are just "slop" and take up an awful lot of energy. Usually they are exactly the types of sounds you mention - traffic, HVAC, etc. Door slams create HUGE peaks that need to be tamed.
SLOP? C'mon. At least in your case with dialogue parts of editing, I can certainly see filtering out the very lows that were unintentionally recorded, but when it comes to the SFX part of the soundtrack, I think it's a complete sin to do such a thing. Do a spectral analysis of a door slamming or someone walking around on the floor above you. You will clearly see content in that all the way down to 4-5hz with a rig capable of recording it. Do you think a gun blast or mortar explosion doesn't have content below 20hz? Do you walk around with headphones everyday that filter out all the sub 20hz material from your everyday life? No? Then it shouldn't be done in movies either.

Perhaps people are concerned about using too much amp to dig into the single digits, but if I am easily able to accomplish just that in my mid-sized HT, why in the world would a professional mixing stage not attempt to do the same thing, especially with a much higher budget than one little HT enthusiast would have? The answer should not be, "Because 99% of people who will watch this move will not have that capability." But hey, doing effects down to say 9hz may take more work or time, time is money, so let's just not worry about it, right? WRONG.

I built what I believe to be an uncompromising HT for the maximum experience available, only to more often than not now getting the mixes chopped off at the knees. It kinda stinks.

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post #2010 of 4913 Old 02-06-2017, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
More and more often we are seeing pretty steep filtering in movie soundtracks, but there are still some gems coming out that have the goods all the way down to the single digits.



SLOP? C'mon. At least in your case with dialogue parts of editing, I can certainly see filtering out the very lows that were unintentionally recorded, but when it comes to the SFX part of the soundtrack, I think it's a complete sin to do such a thing. Do a spectral analysis of a door slamming or someone walking around on the floor above you. You will clearly see content in that all the way down to 4-5hz with a rig capable of recording it. Do you think a gun blast or mortar explosion doesn't have content below 20hz? Do you walk around with headphones everyday that filter out all the sub 20hz material from your everyday life? No? Then it shouldn't be done in movies either.

Perhaps people are concerned about using too much amp to dig into the single digits, but if I am easily able to accomplish just that in my mid-sized HT, why in the world would a professional mixing stage not attempt to do the same thing, especially with a much higher budget than one little HT enthusiast would have? The answer should not be, "Because 99% of people who will watch this move will not have that capability." But hey, doing effects down to say 9hz may take more work or time, time is money, so let's just not worry about it, right? WRONG.

I built what I believe to be an uncompromising HT for the maximum experience available, only to more often than not now getting the mixes chopped off at the knees. It kinda stinks.
The circular logic here is that the films like WOTW and other low content films are not being produced with <20hz content in 7 figure theaters. So, why mix for it? Considering most commercial theaters are employing JBL which cannot handle the range, maybe John is right. But, when recording natural things like thunder or cannon shots, of course that frequency is there. I'm not sure what the correct answer is, but I know I want a sub that can play at least in the audible range to reference, or higher, and not fall off. I'm still trying to get there myself.
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