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post #2041 of 4691 Old 02-08-2017, 04:30 AM
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LOL! Back to previously scheduled program.
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post #2042 of 4691 Old 02-08-2017, 07:12 AM
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It spiraled out from the fact that the JBL subs drop off in the audible range and typically have a huge downward slope in response, not that it originally was in the wrong spot. It was more entertaining and insightful than the usual posts though
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post #2043 of 4691 Old 02-08-2017, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Incorrect, there's lots of deep, subwoofer bass content above the 20Hz point when the 10Hz super deep special effect note appears. Notice the loud note which appears at -6dB on this graph, below, at 30Hz?


That's not an acoustical/subwoofer distortion or amp distortion: I made this measurement in the electrical domain so everyone playing this scene is getting that loud 30Hz signal.
You called it! I was looking for that graph actually and couldn't track it down. Guess what that spike at 30hz actually is? A harmonic.

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Originally Posted by thrang View Post
Though this conversation in the wrong thread, it does at least make me laugh.

So for the 74 people worldwide that can go to 10hz allegedly cleanly, there is a push for the industry to meet their specs?

Sorry, you put your money in a bad spot....
I guess I am one of those 74 people. Along with probably another dozen I could easily list right here if I wanted to, but for the sake of taking this completely off the rails, I won't tag anyone.

On another note, I am world renowned heart surgeon, and when I am suturing up after a quad bypass I usually get to a point where I think to myself, "Yea that's good enough for all but about 74 people worldwide. I'll quit now" when I could have just added that little extra to satisfy everyone ya know? Same should go for the pinnacle of the audio mixing profession. These guys that work the blockbuster films I feel like should ALL want to produce a soundtrack that would demonstrate their maximum ability to master for FULL BANDWIDTH. You think LeBron James gets out on the court and thinks to himself, "I'm not going to play to the best of my ability tonight 'cuz I don't have to and we will still win?"

(Obviously no, I am not heart surgeon, but you get the point)

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Originally Posted by Jsin_N View Post
It spiraled out from the fact that the JBL subs drop off in the audible range and typically have a huge downward slope in response, not that it originally was in the wrong spot. It was more entertaining and insightful than the usual posts though
Thanks for that. I would hope that for the most part remaining civil and producing factual information would allow for a good debate.

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post #2044 of 4691 Old 02-08-2017, 08:53 AM
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The analogies are not valid

UPDATED 4/29/17 Thrang's Home Theater (for now...)
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post #2045 of 4691 Old 02-08-2017, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by thrang View Post
The analogies are not valid
Well, that's just like, your opinion, man!


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post #2046 of 4691 Old 02-08-2017, 11:52 AM
 
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You called it! I was looking for that graph actually and couldn't track it down. Guess what that spike at 30hz actually is? A harmonic..
Well I'm not surprised you couldn't track it down because I made it myself, yesterday, although I wouldn't be surprised if there are other versions floating around too.

That loud 30Hz signal isn't a harmonic from my subs nor my amps. I am not measuring my system but rather the digital recording itself in a DAW and no, they don't "generate harmonics" when analyzing the signal. Regardless of how it got there it is clearly there, embedded in the digital sound itself, and every single person reproducing this soundtrack is getting that exact same loud 30Hz signal, during the 10Hz note.

It is pretty easy to see where it occurs on the waveform, around 35s in:
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post #2047 of 4691 Old 02-08-2017, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Well I'm not surprised you couldn't track it down because I made it myself, yesterday, although I wouldn't be surprised if there are other versions floating around too.
Yes, there are other versions, as well as speclab shots of those exact harmonics showing through my exact system when we recorded the clip using a very expensive professional measurement rig. I will keep trying to find it.

When i refer to the "Harmonic" I am not referring to what's coming from the sub or amp, like THD, I know you ran the digital out to get your graph. That harmonic is the 3rd order harmonic from the true recording. Odd-order harmonics are often used in sound effects and are unavoidable with instruments and are considered in many cases as beneficial or even "Pleasing" to the ear. check it out:

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-harmonics.htm

Sure they could have scrubbed it from the recording, but they left it ,intentionally or not? Once again, we would have to ask the sound engineer personally, but my guess would be the specific effect was done this way on purpose.

I'll give you the fact that at -6.2 you are definitely going to get some of that through your subs provided all parts of the system are set up to achieve it. But I also want to point out that at 6dB higher, the 10hz tone will overshadow it pretty easily and in my space, you can CLEARLY tell a difference between the first (30hz fundamental) tone and the fifth (10hz fundamental) tone. And once again, no, it is not distortion, or, "My A/C line and speaker line" rattling, or port noise (sealed setup), over-excursion, whatever.

We have seemed to really get fixated though on JUST 10hz. I gotta be honest here that at 10hz, in my slab concrete room, I need a TON of output to really get an effect there, but as you start climbing the ladder to 20hz, the requirement I feel I personally need to be able to reproduce those frequencies increases with each step almost exponentially:

~20hz it is absolute requirement for me. With the exception of a few VERY steeply filtered movies (Im looking at you STB, Hobbit, etc), there is ample 20hz effect in most action movies being released today.
~15hz I can handle in other people's theaters and still be happy, but I will always have capability to 15hz in my own space at least. Still very present in many movie soundtracks old and new.
~12hz we start hitting questionable territory for me, and if I were to go to a vented design, I would likely choose 12hz as my tuning. still glad I have it now. Starting to hit rare movie effect territory now, but still quite a few movies that will have a couple of these effects through the production.
~10hz is basically inaudible but the pressure in the room creates an "Underwater" type feeling that is almost unnerving when it happens. I've got it now, but would I miss it? Probably not. Not too many effects here at all, but they present themselves every once in a while.
~5hz I need not chase on a slab, but I have experienced it on a suspended floor (over a garage) and it was a pretty awesome effect. I will not add to an already large system just to reach it better. Only a handful of effects in movies ever recorded with enough "Umph" to be worth it, and you definitely need to be on a suspended floor. Why chase it? Hey, whatever "Floats your boat" right? You can call it silly, while others call it necessity. the whole "If it's in the original recording, I want my system to reproduce it." Mentality comes to mind.

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post #2048 of 4691 Old 02-08-2017, 12:51 PM
 
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Here's a test I also made yesterday with a voice over announcing the following sequence of frequencies being played, all at the same level:
100 Hz, 80, 60, 50, 40, 30, 25, 24, 23, 22, 21, 20, 19, 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, and 1 Hz.

This simultaneously measures your sub, room, placement, and hearing all in one. Of course it is only good up until you hit the weakest link in the chain but still I find it interesting in many regards, including it is an excellent way to hear what else in your room your sub is rattling. Even well past the point where I don't hear anything there are still some frequencies that make items like cables that lean against my rack start to dance/buzz against it.

Please excuse the plosives my voice over has here or there, such as when announcing 12 Hz, but I couldn't locate my windscreen and this was really just meant as a fast, down and dirty test.

Updated Download:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0By...21iNVNacUdRNjA

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post #2049 of 4691 Old 02-08-2017, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellebob View Post
You are correct that the issue is a lot more complicated in many areas between large and small room acoustics. I work in them all the time, in fact I will be in an auditorium today. You don't deal with room modes in large rooms but you deal with bass decay instead. Many RT60 values only show to 125hz but when you go lower the decay becomes much longer. A recent church I working had decay times of 8 seconds at 50hz causing very bloaty bass hang that they were complaining about. That also has to be dealt with. Working in theses spaces you would be surprised how much drop off you get below 35hz even with multiple large 18" subs. Calculating ground plane, distance and boundary are great in theory but you are losing a lot through walls at that frequency range unless in a bunker of a building and real world experience shows me to go below 20hz in these spaces is not an easy task for multiple reasons.
Thanks for sharing the anecdote. An 8 second RT60 is definitely pretty severe. There's probably a reason why my local Atmos cinema has what appears to be ~ 12 inches of fluffy insulation (painted dark gray) covering every inch of its ceiling. I do have to point out, however, that this long RT60 implies that the losses through the walls of that church are probably quite low or else it would not be possible for all of that bass energy to accumulate.

As for subs dropping off below 35 Hz in these spaces, I assume you are using typical ported pro-audio subs, which are specifically designed to extend no lower than 30-40 Hz and to maximize output at and above those frequencies. These subs will drop off rapidly below this range even in small rooms. Very few pro subs are designed to play lower than that, mostly because there's little market demand for such capability. If the movie industry embraced lower sub extension as a premium feature like 4k, 3D, HFR, or HDR video, then that could change rapidly. The technology is already here. The only thing keeping capable products off the market is the lack of buyers.
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post #2050 of 4691 Old 02-08-2017, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by awediophile View Post
Very few pro subs are designed to play lower than that, mostly because there's little market demand for such capability. If the movie industry embraced lower sub extension as a premium feature like 4k, 3D, HFR, or HDR video, then that could change rapidly. The technology is already here. The only thing keeping capable products off the market is the lack of buyers.
What large theaters need is about 24 of these

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/danle...pec-sheet1.pdf

That should get the frequency response in those large theater rooms down to 20hz and slightly below.
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post #2051 of 4691 Old 02-08-2017, 05:40 PM
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Part of the bass energy accumulation was because of the stage acting like a big subwoofer. We had to fix that problem but even after that you still had 5-6 second RT60 in that size space at lower frequencies which needed to be solved by various means. In bigger spaces we try for RT60 of 2 seconds while in treated home theaters it is usually between .25 and .5 second.

While many theater subs are geared towards 40hz and up, that is not all of them. Anyway 8 Meyer X-800 subs (dual 18s) had to use quite a bit of boost to get 25-30hz at a good level. Those are not wimpy subs and are rated to 20hz as they are THX subs. Big rooms have more involved than simple calculations. Go bring two of the dual 21s to a local church, auditorium or cineplex and take some measurements, I think you will be surprised.

I am not saying it wouldn't be nice to go below 20hz but most homes and commercial spaces are simply not willing to do what needs to be done to achieve it. When the day comes that something the size of a Bose cube can push that much air you might see it. Right now it is just not practical except for those 74 people like Beast
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post #2052 of 4691 Old 02-08-2017, 10:05 PM
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So, I'll just leave this here....

Thanks once again @Gooddoc , there's absolutely no way I could have got them running tonight without you. Well, maybe if I installed the jet engines in the room, lol. You, my friend, went above and beyond! Beers, food, and tunes are awaiting the next time you're in my area. Don't be a stranger!

As for initial impressions...well, I don't really want to say a bunch, yet. But, I'll say a few things I notice right off the bat on tracks I've loved on the Cats and feel I know well.

1) Imaging is different on these. I probably still have to play with position, and they are in a different spot than the Cats were, so it's not 1:1. That said, there were times on the Cats where I'd notice a "cool effect" where a voice would shift a little bit as, for example, the singer modulated their notes. These speakers, the singer's voice sits rock solid at the same spot without "warbling." In this case, I will surmise the "cool effect" was a "distortion" that the M2s don't have. However, in some tracks, I more clearly noticed smoother panning on the Cats. Yet, these place things more exactly. So...there's a noticeable difference, and I think I have to dial them in to get the best of each. Unfortunately, I don't know if I'll ever know what's "right" because headphones, for some odd reason, never seem to image really well for me; always sounds like I'm in a box.

2) Detail is definitely greater on the M2s. I'd say that's especially noticeable to me thus far in the lower ranges. For example, I can pick apart bass guitar riffs better. The Cats were excellent here, these are better. Also, the highs "sparkle" a bit more (with the Cats I needed to let Audyssey do its thing to tweak the highs a bit and, while that added some harshness, I preferred it).

3) Still some things on tracks I can't make out even with these, lol. So, either the track isn't mixed well enough to let me, or it's my room (or ears, lol). For example, I've tried to hear what these weird, but audible, background vocals were trying to say in Temple Of Theives - In The Garden (Collecting Souls) and I still bloody can't.

That said, I have a few things to work on -- tweaking position, tweaking gains, trying to remove a bit of hum (which isn't really audible at my seat, but...still, fanatical and all, lol) which is probably caused by RCA -> XLR on my Denon. I had it slightly on the Cats, too, and had to connect them to a power cleaner which also powered my Denon (and probably just supplied a better common ground) to get rid of it. I don't have that option here, so... Also, I should find a way to trigger the amps on and off because I don't think they should be on all the time, not because they suck down power, just because they shouldn't, lol.

And now, I'm going to finish my beer, listen to a few more tracks, and head to bed. Tomorrow, maybe I'll get to crank them a bit more and see what I can wring out, lol.
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post #2053 of 4691 Old 02-08-2017, 11:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackdevil77 View Post
What large theaters need is about 24 of these

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/danle...pec-sheet1.pdf

That should get the frequency response in those large theater rooms down to 20hz and slightly below.
Just how large of a theater are we talking about? Only four of those would get the job done outdoors at 15 meters. Two might be enough indoors, but why skimp?

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Originally Posted by Ellebob View Post
Part of the bass energy accumulation was because of the stage acting like a big subwoofer. We had to fix that problem but even after that you still had 5-6 second RT60 in that size space at lower frequencies which needed to be solved by various means. In bigger spaces we try for RT60 of 2 seconds while in treated home theaters it is usually between .25 and .5 second.

While many theater subs are geared towards 40hz and up, that is not all of them. Anyway 8 Meyer X-800 subs (dual 18s) had to use quite a bit of boost to get 25-30hz at a good level. Those are not wimpy subs and are rated to 20hz as they are THX subs. Big rooms have more involved than simple calculations. Go bring two of the dual 21s to a local church, auditorium or cineplex and take some measurements, I think you will be surprised.

I am not saying it wouldn't be nice to go below 20hz but most homes and commercial spaces are simply not willing to do what needs to be done to achieve it. When the day comes that something the size of a Bose cube can push that much air you might see it. Right now it is just not practical except for those 74 people like Beast
It looks like Meyer pulled all their product data offline for that model. In any case, the amount of boost doesn't really tell you about room gain unless you also have an outdoor response measurement for reference. Likewise, the rating of 20 Hz is meaningless without response data. Likewise, the outdoor response data tells us nothing about the actual performance capabilities of the subs. That requires max output and/or burst measurements, also done outdoors.

This data is required even for "simple calculations" to be at all worthwhile. That's why I based my reasoning on subwoofer systems for which this data is available. And do keep in mind that my calculations assumed proper corner loading. Flying the sub some distance away from the front and side-walls certainly won't achieve the same gain as installing them directly into the room corners.
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post #2054 of 4691 Old 02-09-2017, 03:23 AM
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Just how large of a theater are we talking about? Only four of those would get the job done outdoors at 15 meters. Two might be enough indoors, but why skimp?
A typical large theater.

Exactly. Drastic overkill
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post #2055 of 4691 Old 02-09-2017, 05:45 AM
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So, I'll just leave this here....

Thanks once again @Gooddoc , there's absolutely no way I could have got them running tonight without you. Well, maybe if I installed the jet engines in the room, lol. You, my friend, went above and beyond! Beers, food, and tunes are awaiting the next time you're in my area. Don't be a stranger!
No problem man. We cranked that out, lol. When I pulled up and saw the M2's sitting on your porch I really didn't think we'd have them up and running considering I knew we had nothing to install them. But we packed up your Cat's, ran a dedicated 20 amp outlet, and installed the amps remotely without a single item needed for the install before I walked through the door. Pretty impressive actually .

You definitely need to set the M2's up, we just plopped them in the room and they’re not even close to being symmetrical or level matched at the MLP

Good luck with them and enjoy. And yeah, next time I'm over I'm kicking back with a beer in hand, not wire strippers
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Wow, look at all those toys.
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post #2057 of 4691 Old 02-09-2017, 07:13 AM
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You're running those with Audyssey? You'll be even happier once you switch away from that.
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post #2058 of 4691 Old 02-09-2017, 07:21 AM
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Wow, look at all those toys.
Those are carefully disguised diffusers
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Wow, look at all those toys.
Yeah, I wonder how many of them will end up getting pushed inside the M2's through those bottom ports!
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post #2060 of 4691 Old 02-09-2017, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post
So, I'll just leave this here....

Thanks once again @Gooddoc , there's absolutely no way I could have got them running tonight without you. Well, maybe if I installed the jet engines in the room, lol. You, my friend, went above and beyond! Beers, food, and tunes are awaiting the next time you're in my area. Don't be a stranger!

As for initial impressions...well, I don't really want to say a bunch, yet. But, I'll say a few things I notice right off the bat on tracks I've loved on the Cats and feel I know well.

1) Imaging is different on these. I probably still have to play with position, and they are in a different spot than the Cats were, so it's not 1:1. That said, there were times on the Cats where I'd notice a "cool effect" where a voice would shift a little bit as, for example, the singer modulated their notes. These speakers, the singer's voice sits rock solid at the same spot without "warbling." In this case, I will surmise the "cool effect" was a "distortion" that the M2s don't have. However, in some tracks, I more clearly noticed smoother panning on the Cats. Yet, these place things more exactly. So...there's a noticeable difference, and I think I have to dial them in to get the best of each. Unfortunately, I don't know if I'll ever know what's "right" because headphones, for some odd reason, never seem to image really well for me; always sounds like I'm in a box.

2) Detail is definitely greater on the M2s. I'd say that's especially noticeable to me thus far in the lower ranges. For example, I can pick apart bass guitar riffs better. The Cats were excellent here, these are better. Also, the highs "sparkle" a bit more (with the Cats I needed to let Audyssey do its thing to tweak the highs a bit and, while that added some harshness, I preferred it).

3) Still some things on tracks I can't make out even with these, lol. So, either the track isn't mixed well enough to let me, or it's my room (or ears, lol). For example, I've tried to hear what these weird, but audible, background vocals were trying to say in Temple Of Theives - In The Garden (Collecting Souls) and I still bloody can't.

That said, I have a few things to work on -- tweaking position, tweaking gains, trying to remove a bit of hum (which isn't really audible at my seat, but...still, fanatical and all, lol) which is probably caused by RCA -> XLR on my Denon. I had it slightly on the Cats, too, and had to connect them to a power cleaner which also powered my Denon (and probably just supplied a better common ground) to get rid of it. I don't have that option here, so... Also, I should find a way to trigger the amps on and off because I don't think they should be on all the time, not because they suck down power, just because they shouldn't, lol.

And now, I'm going to finish my beer, listen to a few more tracks, and head to bed. Tomorrow, maybe I'll get to crank them a bit more and see what I can wring out, lol.
Nice! Congrats, I can't wait to join you guys.
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post #2061 of 4691 Old 02-09-2017, 11:57 AM
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No problem man. We cranked that out, lol. When I pulled up and saw the M2's sitting on your porch I really didn't think we'd have them up and running considering I knew we had nothing to install them. But we packed up your Cat's, ran a dedicated 20 amp outlet, and installed the amps remotely without a single item needed for the install before I walked through the door. Pretty impressive actually .

You definitely need to set the M2's up, we just plopped them in the room and they’re not even close to being symmetrical or level matched at the MLP

Good luck with them and enjoy. And yeah, next time I'm over I'm kicking back with a beer in hand, not wire strippers
Indeed! I was telling my mom this morning that I have to take you out for dinner. I was telling my wife you tried to pay for pizza, lol. Like I would have let that happen. You're too nice!

And, after you left, I did break out the tape measure to get them the same distance from the side walls (+- 1" or so). So, they should be pretty close, but not laser-accurate.
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Wow, look at all those toys.
HAHA! Yeah, it's a multi-purpose room and my daughter rules it at the moment. Hopefully when I get the basement situation under control I'll either get a dedicated room for them down there or I'll at least move the pool table downstairs so baby girl can have the living room and I can keep the family room more tidy.
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You're running those with Audyssey? You'll be even happier once you switch away from that.
No, ran it with the Cats, though. Haven't even bothered with these yet.
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Those are carefully disguised diffusers
HAHA!
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Yeah, I wonder how many of them will end up getting pushed inside the M2's through those bottom ports!
One already, my wife dug it out.
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Nice! Congrats, I can't wait to join you guys.
Best of luck!
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post #2062 of 4691 Old 02-09-2017, 12:08 PM
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So, on another note, I got to crank them a bit today. Yeah, I've heard @Gooddoc get them up there in volume, but never knew how much of the clarity was due to his room. But, I can get these to pretty good levels and not feel any need to turn them down. I mentioned above that the Cats would really rock at higher levels -- they shred! But, I can see myself being able to tolerate these at loud levels for much longer and they don't seem to overpower my room. I'm still pretty sure if I treated my room better that the Cats would not shred as hard, but now I don't really need to worry anywhere near as much about room treatments.

On another note -- I really need to get this hum situation under control. Last night when I switched the receiver (Denon 4311ci) off, the Crown amps started putting this crazy staticky noise out to the speakers. It has to be something to do with the RCA -> XLR situation I have going on, but I need it fixed. Any ideas? I was thinking of picking up an Art Cleanbox Pro. Maybe that will fix it?

edit: just bought the Cleanbox Pro on B&H, should be here tomorrow, hopefully it helps.

Last edited by DreamWarrior; 02-09-2017 at 12:31 PM.
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You're running those with Audyssey? You'll be even happier once you switch away from that.
Intelligent EQ systems, such as Audyssey, usually don't apply frequency boosts because it greatly saps amplifier power [for every attempt at boosting the frequencies by +3dB you effectively cut your available amplifier power in half, greatly increasing the possibility of clipping on peaks,] so instead all they do is apply cuts. This effectively means the EQ'd signal always has a reduced overall average signal level and consumers attempting to make assessments as to "what sounds better" pretty much never apply level matching procedures to correct this loudness differential during their evaluations of the pre and post EQ sound, hence they often are subliminally seduced by the slightly louder signal the non-processed signal possesses.

They also almost never undertake their testing under blind conditions.

For those not familiar with the pitfalls of sighted (not blind) audio testing and not carefully level matching:
http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=6338
http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=5539
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post #2064 of 4691 Old 02-09-2017, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post
So, on another note, I got to crank them a bit today. Yeah, I've heard @Gooddoc get them up there in volume, but never knew how much of the clarity was due to his room. But, I can get these to pretty good levels and not feel any need to turn them down. I mentioned above that the Cats would really rock at higher levels -- they shred! But, I can see myself being able to tolerate these at loud levels for much longer and they don't seem to overpower my room. I'm still pretty sure if I treated my room better that the Cats would not shred as hard, but now I don't really need to worry anywhere near as much about room treatments.

On another note -- I really need to get this hum situation under control. Last night when I switched the receiver (Denon 4311ci) off, the Crown amps started putting this crazy staticky noise out to the speakers. It has to be something to do with the RCA -> XLR situation I have going on, but I need it fixed. Any ideas? I was thinking of picking up an Art Cleanbox Pro. Maybe that will fix it?

edit: just bought the Cleanbox Pro on B&H, should be here tomorrow, hopefully it helps.
One of my favorite games! CATCH THAT BUZZ!!!!!

Easy and quick option is to ground the amp chassis to the denon chassis with a piece of 12ga wire. Try that first.

Next up, cable inspection. are you running RCA cables with a XLR converter or actual RCA->XLR cables? The shielding and grounding my not be proper. I use these:

https://www.amazon.com/Hosa-GXM-133-...8JRGZG3MANY573

Not sure if you need male or female but in your case run one of those directly off the back of the denon, with a true XLR cable all the way to the crown amps.

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The Art does not have a ground lift switch, so it might not work as you desire. One thing to try for the static sound in your speakers, is to turn the amp off first, then receiver. That is the usual recommended order of things and doing the opposite when turning things on.
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post #2066 of 4691 Old 02-09-2017, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Intelligent EQ systems, such as Audyssey, usually don't apply frequency boosts because it greatly saps amplifier power [for every attempt at boosting the frequencies by +3dB you effectively cut your available amplifier power in half, greatly increasing the possibility of clipping on peaks,] so instead all they do is apply cuts. This effectively means the EQ'd signal always has a reduced overall average signal level and consumers attempting to make assessments as to "what sounds better" pretty much never apply level matching procedures during their evaluations of the pre and post EQ sound, hence they often are subliminally seduced by the slightly louder signal the non-processed signal possesses.

They also almost never undertake their testing under blind conditions.

For those not familiar with the pitfalls of sighted (not blind) audio testing and not level matching:
http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=6338
http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=5539
Though my understanding this is not necessarily the case with EQ in the digital domain, i.e. the Crown DCi amps - gains are acceptable (though to what limits/ratios I don't know). Do I have that right? Thanks

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post #2067 of 4691 Old 02-09-2017, 01:11 PM
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edit: just bought the Cleanbox Pro on B&H, should be here tomorrow, hopefully it helps.
Dude, I have two of them sitting in a box and no need for them....
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Though my understanding this is not necessarily the case with EQ in the digital domain, i.e. the Crown DCi amps - gains are acceptable (though to what limits/ratios I don't know). Do I have that right? Thanks
Well if you increase parts of the frequency range via EQ, regardless if the boosting occurs in the digital domain or analog domain, you are giving the power amplifiers downstream of that EQ point a harder task.

Another way to get around this potential problem is to allow some limited degree of auto EQ boosts and to re-establish the signal's average level such that the new boosted EQ'd level's peak(s) becomes the signal's new maximum level, i.e. the main, average signal level is consequentially greatly reduced. This protects you from clipping the amps downstream but it also greatly reduces the average level, hence one would have a tendency to want to turn up their volume knob and this effectively reintroduces the problem.

Different companies use different approaches but I suppose ones that also have some say in the amplification that will be applied have a better understanding of what approach works best in that particular scenario. [And if you have gobs of extra reserve power on hand this concern is pretty much gone.]

Sorry, I don't know what specific approach Crown uses.

Note, I have been discussing two factors: Perceived loudness and how to efficiently use amplifier power. In overall system design you also have to juggle a third thing, the gain factor from device to device, so as to maximize the overall signal to noise ratio. In a nutshell that means playing each device at the maximum level it can achieve without distorting either itself nor the input stage of the next device in the chain.

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post #2069 of 4691 Old 02-09-2017, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Intelligent EQ systems, such as Audyssey, usually don't apply frequency boosts because it greatly saps amplifier power [for every attempt at boosting the frequencies by +3dB you effectively cut your available amplifier power in half, greatly increasing the possibility of clipping on peaks,] so instead all they do is apply cuts. This effectively means the EQ'd signal always has a reduced overall average signal level and consumers attempting to make assessments as to "what sounds better" pretty much never apply level matching procedures to correct this loudness differential during their evaluations of the pre and post EQ sound, hence they often are subliminally seduced by the slightly louder signal the non-processed signal possesses.

They also almost never undertake their testing under blind conditions.

For those not familiar with the pitfalls of sighted (not blind) audio testing and not carefully level matching:
http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=6338
http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=5539
I don't care at what level I was listening to. I had Audyssey for the last decade and I liked what it did to the bass, but the rest of the sound was ruined and I always had listener fatigue. It took me a long time to switch because I liked Denon and the receivers were great/bullet proof.

Now that I have, I know I was right. Their EQ curve sounds thin, boosts the highs, and smears the sound somehow.

It has nothing to do with level matching and A/B'ing the results.
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post #2070 of 4691 Old 02-09-2017, 01:35 PM
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I don't care at what level I was listening to. I had Audyssey for the last decade and I liked what it did to the bass, but the rest of the sound was ruined and I always had listener fatigue. It took me a long time to switch because I liked Denon and the receivers were great/bullet proof.

Now that I have, I know I was right. Their EQ curve sounds thin, boosts the highs, and smears the sound somehow.

It has nothing to do with level matching and A/B'ing the results.
So what are you incorporating now?

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