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post #2071 of 4692 Old 02-09-2017, 01:38 PM
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ARC. Anthem. Huge improvement.

I stop EQ at 350 to 500 hz. Even with it engaged to 5k, it's better than the Audyssey curve.

To each their own. Hopefully Audyssey is listening and will offer future curves and the ability to limit processing.
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post #2072 of 4692 Old 02-09-2017, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
One of my favorite games! CATCH THAT BUZZ!!!!!

Easy and quick option is to ground the amp chassis to the denon chassis with a piece of 12ga wire. Try that first.

Next up, cable inspection. are you running RCA cables with a XLR converter or actual RCA->XLR cables? The shielding and grounding my not be proper. I use these:

https://www.amazon.com/Hosa-GXM-133-...8JRGZG3MANY573

Not sure if you need male or female but in your case run one of those directly off the back of the denon, with a true XLR cable all the way to the crown amps.
I'll see if I can fish a 12 gauge wire to ground the two chassis. I guess any old screw on the chassis will work?

As for the run, I have an RCA -> XLR adapter that Seaton provided with the Cats and then a 25' Mogami Gold XLR fished down to the amps. Did that so that when I get a proper XLR-having pre-amp I can just ditch the adapters.

Now, the adapters may not be wired right. I did have some issues with the Cats when I first got them, too, and I "fixed" them by plugging the Cats into a power conditioner with trigger. So, this issue has existed for a while, I've just been covering it up as best I can.

In fact, I have a lot of these kinds of issues in this house, and I don't know why. It feels like many people have no problems with RCA -> XLR, and I've had nothing but. Heck, I've had problems with all my externally amplified equipment through two different receivers and many times they've all been on the same circuit. I really wish I knew why.
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Originally Posted by shivaji View Post
The Art does not have a ground lift switch, so it might not work as you desire. One thing to try for the static sound in your speakers, is to turn the amp off first, then receiver. That is the usual recommended order of things and doing the opposite when turning things on.
It doesn't but if it's plugged into the same circuit as the Denon wouldn't that help it receive the RCA signal cleanly and then hopefully the XLR signal it creates is done correctly, isolated, and with proper signal grounding? I don't know, we'll see. It is certainly easier to connect a box like this to the same ground as the Denon than it is to connect the Crowns in my basement, but you're right...I don't know if it's going to fix it.

As for triggering the Crowns, I have no means to do that, so I just leave them on. I didn't budget for a sequencer or anything. Maybe I could DIY a cheap 20 amp relay.
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Dude, I have two of them sitting in a box and no need for them....
Well, I guess if I works I'll send it back and buy one of yours from you. If it doesn't, I'll...send it back anyway, lol.
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post #2073 of 4692 Old 02-09-2017, 01:43 PM
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I have a Crown K2 connected to my mains. it has a standby when it doesn't get a signal. Do the DCI amps also have that?
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post #2074 of 4692 Old 02-09-2017, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jsin_N View Post
ARC. Anthem. Huge improvement.

I stop EQ at 350 to 500 hz. Even with it engaged to 5k, it's better than the Audyssey curve.

To each their own. Hopefully Audyssey is listening and will offer future curves and the ability to limit processing.
They did listen. New audyssey app coming out in march will allow for target curve manipulation and correction limiting. To what extent, and how effective it will be we don't know, guess only time will tell.
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post #2075 of 4692 Old 02-09-2017, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shivaji View Post
I have a Crown K2 connected to my mains. it has a standby when it doesn't get a signal. Do the DCI amps also have that?
Yes, and also a contact closure feature. Though the 2450 amp has a different lineage and doesn't power down completely like the rest of the line regardless of signal sense or contact closure.

I use the Global Cache IP2CC and my remote software to open and close the contacts via ethernet

https://www.globalcache.com/products.../ip2cc-pspecs/

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post #2076 of 4692 Old 02-09-2017, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
They did listen. New audyssey app coming out in march will allow for target curve manipulation and correction limiting. To what extent, and how effective it will be we don't know, guess only time will tell.
Pretty sure the target curve is +/-3 db like the pro app, but if they give you the ability to limit correction, that should be good.
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post #2077 of 4692 Old 02-09-2017, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Jsin_N View Post
Pretty sure the target curve is +/-3 db like the pro app, but if they give you the ability to limit correction, that should be good.
Yea, Im hoping it will be more than that, otherwise Ill be right behind you on one of those avm60's

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post #2078 of 4692 Old 02-09-2017, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shivaji View Post
I have a Crown K2 connected to my mains. it has a standby when it doesn't get a signal. Do the DCI amps also have that?
If you're speaking to me -- I have the iTech 5000 HD, and @Gooddoc mentioned it does have standby. However, my guess is that if it is putting out static to the speakers (for whatever reason it's doing it) then it probably thinks it has signal (static), and thus will never enter standby. I didn't want to leave it noisy long enough to find out; I just left my receiver on all night, lol. What I didn't do is switch my receiver off this morning, when I presume the Crown was in standby, to see if the amp would "awaken" and play static. Regardless, even if it stayed asleep, I don't want to wait while it hisses away for it to shutdown.

Regardless, eventually, I should find an inexpensive way to shut the Crowns down via 12v trigger.
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post #2079 of 4692 Old 02-09-2017, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Yea, Im hoping it will be more than that, otherwise Ill be right behind you on one of those avm60's
I'm considering this unit, but...I wish it had independent sub-outs. It seems like it has a single output that is just internally y'd. That is useless to me because my two subs are not equidistant and, as such, need different delay applied to blend them. So, if I bought this, I would need to buy another thing to handle sub-blending, and that's just more $ to stick out.
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post #2080 of 4692 Old 02-09-2017, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Jsin_N View Post
I don't care at what level I was listening to. I had Audyssey for the last decade and I liked what it did to the bass, but the rest of the sound was ruined and I always had listener fatigue. It took me a long time to switch because I liked Denon and the receivers were great/bullet proof.

Now that I have, I know I was right. Their EQ curve sounds thin, boosts the highs, and smears the sound somehow.
I think that's three of us now who have noticed the "smeary" effect of Audyssey. Me, you and Gooddoc. As I've posted before, Harman is pretty adamant that EQ'ing above Schroeder is a bad idea. Talking to the Synthesis ARCOS calibrators, the highest they will go is about 500 hz, with up to 1000 hz for subjective "touch-ups."

I was talking to Kris Deering over the weekend about our new demo JVC RS4500 laser 4K projector and we got to talking about Anthem. Both of us thought that the Anthem does a much better job of integrating subs to satellites as well.

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post #2081 of 4692 Old 02-09-2017, 02:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post
So, if I bought this, I would need to buy another thing to handle sub-blending, and that's just more $ to stick out.
If one or more of your subs has a variable phase control you could do that part manually. [and of course level too]

I'm in agreement with Chris Kyriakakis that independent EQ of two subs isn't actually all that important. What really matters is their singular, summed EQ measured at the ear.
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post #2082 of 4692 Old 02-09-2017, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post
I'm considering this unit, but...I wish it had independent sub-outs. It seems like it has a single output that is just internally y'd. That is useless to me because my two subs are not equidistant and, as such, need different delay applied to blend them. So, if I bought this, I would need to buy another thing to handle sub-blending, and that's just more $ to stick out.
It is a Y out. I'm running four subs out of my AVM60. With Anthem, you use the quick measure to set the levels of each sub independently (so they match) and adjust polarity, etc, to get them to all play nice together. Mine are *almost* equidistant so not really a problem - fronts are equidistant from listening position, rears about a foot closer. Anthem suggest setting the distance to match the closest sub.

Might be worth a call to their tech support - you actually get a real human being on the phone who knows what you are talking about (and if they don't know the answer, they don't have a problem getting the next person up the chain that does).

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post #2083 of 4692 Old 02-09-2017, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
If one or more of your subs has a variable phase control you could do that part manually. [and of course level too]

I'm in agreement with Chris Kyriakakis that independent EQ of two subs isn't actually all that important. What really matters is their combined, singular EQ measured at the ear.
Yup - that's what Anthem says as well.

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post #2084 of 4692 Old 02-09-2017, 02:48 PM
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I can confirm that Audyssey boosts up to 9 dB for any single frequency. I second the recommendation to not use it at all. App support for target curve editor that's limited to +/- 3 dB is lame.

I personally use independent EQ on each of my subs, and it definitely gives me superior results (especially as far as multiple seats are concerned) than I can achieve by combining them. Part of that may be due to the asymmetry of my room. However, implementing independent EQ is not a trivial task because summing must take into account phase differences. I used software I wrote myself to do my EQ config. I can't speak for the performance of other tools that are available for this task (Dirac Unison and Harman SFM) because I have no experience with these tools.
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post #2085 of 4692 Old 02-09-2017, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
If one or more of your subs has a variable phase control you could do that part manually. [and of course level too]

I'm in agreement with Chris Kyriakakis that independent EQ of two subs isn't actually all that important. What really matters is their singular, summed EQ measured at the ear.
I have the older Seaton SubM's, so level-only (via gain control). I don't believe there is phase/delay on the older models.

As for independent EQ, I'd agree. The only thing I need a non-y'd output for is to set different distances (which I suppose ultimately equals delay / phase (though I believe a normal phase control is often non-linear across frequencies while digital delay is)).

That said, the flexibility that could be offered by an external sub-DSP may be nice.
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It is a Y out. I'm running four subs out of my AVM60. With Anthem, you use the quick measure to set the levels of each sub independently (so they match) and adjust polarity, etc, to get them to all play nice together. Mine are *almost* equidistant so not really a problem - fronts are equidistant from listening position, rears about a foot closer. Anthem suggest setting the distance to match the closest sub.

Might be worth a call to their tech support - you actually get a real human being on the phone who knows what you are talking about (and if they don't know the answer, they don't have a problem getting the next person up the chain that does).
Well, polarity will just give me 180 deg phase, so that may be better (or worse) to itegrate the subs, but unlikely ideal.

Ultimately, there's just too much a difference in the distance between my nearfield sub and the one on the front wall. While I could move my nearfield sub to that wall (opposite corner) now that the equipment stand is out of there, I'd have to replace it with an end-table, as it's been collecting all the crap the we throw on it (laptop, tablet, various books, remotes, lol) . Right now it's pretty much kitty-corner in the room next to my couch.

Really, I need a dedicated room, lol. But, even there, I'd probably have a few sub-groups to phase-correct. So, anyone have a recommendation on a good outboard processor for that which won't break the bank (preferably not miniDSP since I've heard a lot of folks complain about their S/N ratio).
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post #2086 of 4692 Old 02-09-2017, 02:56 PM
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FYI getting very close to an in-wall M2 - JBL just revealed the Synthesis SCL2 at ISE in Amsterdam:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-spe...l#post50602961

I've known about these for a while - finally the cat's out of the bag
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post #2087 of 4692 Old 02-09-2017, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post
If you're speaking to me -- I have the iTech 5000 HD, and @Gooddoc mentioned it does have standby. However, my guess is that if it is putting out static to the speakers (for whatever reason it's doing it) then it probably thinks it has signal (static), and thus will never enter standby. I didn't want to leave it noisy long enough to find out; I just left my receiver on all night, lol. What I didn't do is switch my receiver off this morning, when I presume the Crown was in standby, to see if the amp would "awaken" and play static. Regardless, even if it stayed asleep, I don't want to wait while it hisses away for it to shutdown.

Regardless, eventually, I should find an inexpensive way to shut the Crowns down via 12v trigger.
Until then, I've been turning mine off via RF remote outlet switches. Works well, but it does suck having to have another remote. It's just an all off or on thing though, so no big deal.
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post #2088 of 4692 Old 02-09-2017, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by awediophile View Post
I can confirm that Audyssey boosts up to 9 dB for any single frequency. I second the recommendation to not use it at all. App support for target curve editor that's limited to +/- 3 dB is lame.

I personally use independent EQ on each of my subs, and it definitely gives me superior results (especially as far as multiple seats are concerned) than I can achieve by combining them. Part of that may be due to the asymmetry of my room. However, implementing independent EQ is not a trivial task because summing must take into account phase differences. I used software I wrote myself to do my EQ config. I can't speak for the performance of other tools that are available for this task (Dirac Unison and Harman SFM) because I have no experience with these tools.
I used MiniDSP and REW. Easy as hell, great results. You can even add LT to sealed subs if you have the power to spare. ARC did a great job, but ARC with MiniDSP did even better.
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post #2089 of 4692 Old 02-09-2017, 06:29 PM
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I mentioned above that the Cats would really rock at higher levels -- they shred! But, I can see myself being able to tolerate these at loud levels for much longer and they don't seem to overpower my room. I'm still pretty sure if I treated my room better that the Cats would not shred as hard, but now I don't really need to worry anywhere near as much about room treatments.
Ummmm...what does "shred" mean?
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post #2090 of 4692 Old 02-09-2017, 07:39 PM
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@DreamWarrior I had the buzz/hum problem as well in my system. For me, it was caused by the cable service. I disconnected the cable box from the cable line and disconnected everything that had to do with cable and the buzz would go away. Sometimes I do still get an occasional hum. I noticed around Christmas time when I had the Christmas lights come on via a timer, the speakers would have a slight buzz whenever the Christmas lights were on outside :/ Definitely one of the most annoying problems to deal with. It significantly raises the noise floor.
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post #2091 of 4692 Old 02-09-2017, 07:59 PM
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Ummmm...what does "shred" mean?
Join the metalhead's thread and we might tell you.
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post #2092 of 4692 Old 02-10-2017, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
I think that's three of us now who have noticed the "smeary" effect of Audyssey. Me, you and Gooddoc. As I've posted before, Harman is pretty adamant that EQ'ing above Schroeder is a bad idea. Talking to the Synthesis ARCOS calibrators, the highest they will go is about 500 hz, with up to 1000 hz for subjective "touch-ups."
Oh there are way more than just three of you guys I labeled it as a complete breakdown of soundstage several years ago and haven't looked back since. I agree I like what audyssey does in the bass area but that is about it. Limiting correction on the new app will be essential, or you'll be seeing a marantz 7703 up on the classifieds.

FWIW, and YMMV, but as much as I dislike Audyssey for my well-treated and designed room, I have installed 3 other systems with various levels of audyssey correction (XT/XT32) and have found that it does a wonderful job in less than ideal spaces. I just think that when you have speakers as capable as most of us around here do, with at least decent room acoustics, Audyssey tries to fix things that really don't need to be fixed. I like the whole, "If it aint broke..." mentality.



Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
If one or more of your subs has a variable phase control you could do that part manually. [and of course level too]

I'm in agreement with Chris Kyriakakis that independent EQ of two subs isn't actually all that important. What really matters is their singular, summed EQ measured at the ear.
Agreed, but as John pointed out, independent delay for subs that are not equidistant is absolutely essential, and the anthem on its own won't allow for this if I am ready everything correctly.
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post #2093 of 4692 Old 02-10-2017, 07:43 AM
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Oh there are way more than just three of you guys I labeled it as a complete breakdown of soundstage several years ago and haven't looked back since. I agree I like what audyssey does in the bass area but that is about it. Limiting correction on the new app will be essential, or you'll be seeing a marantz 7703 up on the classifieds.

FWIW, and YMMV, but as much as I dislike Audyssey for my well-treated and designed room, I have installed 3 other systems with various levels of audyssey correction (XT/XT32) and have found that it does a wonderful job in less than ideal spaces. I just think that when you have speakers as capable as most of us around here do, with at least decent room acoustics, Audyssey tries to fix things that really don't need to be fixed. I like the whole, "If it aint broke..." mentality.





Agreed, but as John pointed out, independent delay for subs that are not equidistant is absolutely essential, and the anthem on its own won't allow for this if I am ready everything correctly.
I don't understand the aversion to MiniDSP. Even more confusing when people are still trying to buy AS-EQ1's, but I'm glad. I never thought i would get rid of mine.
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post #2094 of 4692 Old 02-10-2017, 07:52 AM
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I don't understand the aversion to MiniDSP. Even more confusing when people are still trying to buy AS-EQ1's, but I'm glad. I never thought i would get rid of mine.
Agreed. and @DreamWarrior for sub duty, the SN ratio on the mini units shouldn't be a problem. I've had my Open DRC-AN unit on my subs for years now and it just works. I need to look into the delay settings in the software though, I have never even looked to see if it has delay adjustments since I have always just used the two independent delay settings in my marantz pre.

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post #2095 of 4692 Old 02-10-2017, 08:24 AM
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Agreed. and @DreamWarrior for sub duty, the SN ratio on the mini units shouldn't be a problem. I've had my Open DRC-AN unit on my subs for years now and it just works. I need to look into the delay settings in the software though, I have never even looked to see if it has delay adjustments since I have always just used the two independent delay settings in my marantz pre.
Looks like the DRC-AN has up to a second up delay if the image on its plugin's product page is correct.
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post #2096 of 4692 Old 02-10-2017, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
I think that's three of us now who have noticed the "smeary" effect of Audyssey. Me, you and Gooddoc. As I've posted before, Harman is pretty adamant that EQ'ing above Schroeder is a bad idea. Talking to the Synthesis ARCOS calibrators, the highest they will go is about 500 hz, with up to 1000 hz for subjective "touch-ups."

I was talking to Kris Deering over the weekend about our new demo JVC RS4500 laser 4K projector and we got to talking about Anthem. Both of us thought that the Anthem does a much better job of integrating subs to satellites as well.
I didn't notice it until I got my Anthem. Once I switched back and forth between the two when I was comparing them, that and so much more became obvious. Everything is MUCH better without Audyssey, at least in my system. I thought the AVM60 sounded "muffled," which was caused by getting used to the boosted highs of Audyssey. Now know what my actual speakers sound like.
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post #2097 of 4692 Old 02-10-2017, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Oh there are way more than just three of you guys I labeled it as a complete breakdown of soundstage several years ago and haven't looked back since. I agree I like what audyssey does in the bass area but that is about it. Limiting correction on the new app will be essential, or you'll be seeing a marantz 7703 up on the classifieds.

FWIW, and YMMV, but as much as I dislike Audyssey for my well-treated and designed room, I have installed 3 other systems with various levels of audyssey correction (XT/XT32) and have found that it does a wonderful job in less than ideal spaces. I just think that when you have speakers as capable as most of us around here do, with at least decent room acoustics, Audyssey tries to fix things that really don't need to be fixed. I like the whole, "If it aint broke..." mentality.
Yeah, I do think we are dumping a little more than is warranted on Audyssey. We still use it in installs where we are calibrating non-Harman speakers, as eq'ing the speaker in those cases may do some good. With Revel and JBL, all you are doing is undoing the fine work of the Harman engineers.

One of the major benefits I have found with Audyssey is in improving dialogue intelligibility. So many people have center speakers in cabinets or low to the ground. Audyssey can do a good job correcting for boundary issues in those cases and really improve clarity.

It is also good for creating a nice cohesive "bubble" for ATMOS / surround, as Gooddoc has pointed out. And their Dynamic EQ does a decent job keeping everything together at lower volumes.

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post #2098 of 4692 Old 02-10-2017, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post
Looks like the DRC-AN has up to a second up delay if the image on its plugin's product page is correct.
I would stick with the regular MiniDSP 2x4 or 2x4HD for subs. Or do the balanced version. Plenty good enough for subs.
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post #2099 of 4692 Old 02-10-2017, 08:55 AM
 
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Agreed, but as John pointed out, independent delay for subs that are not equidistant is absolutely essential,.
Well I'm sure there are tons of people, probably the majority, who would agree that if the (say two) subs aren't equidistant either physically or via phase manipulation, down to the inch, that there will be audible problems. Me on the other hand thinks this is baloney and that as long as the discrepancy between the two subs is under 1/4 wavelength of the highest frequency they will be reproducing that they are effectively as close as they need to be and any remaining, minor aberrations caused by a mismatch in distance, if they are even perceptible to a human in the first place, can be easily corrected at that point in the EQ stage.

For a top frequency of 80Hz this would mean a mismatch of even 3.4 feet should still be within the 1/4 wavelength range I deem acceptable. I'm guerssing many here reading this disagree, but unless they have evidence based science showing people can hear it under level matched, double blind conditions, I have no interest in discussing the matter any further based on sighted anecdotal accounts nor demonstrations that it can be measured with instrumentation. That means nothing.
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post #2100 of 4692 Old 02-10-2017, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Well I'm sure there are tons of people, probably the majority, who would agree that if the (say two) subs aren't equidistant either physically or via phase manipulation, down to the inch, that there will be audible problems. Me on the other hand thinks this is baloney and that as long as the discrepancy between the two subs is under 1/4 wavelength of the highest frequency they will be reproducing that they are effectively as close as they need to be and any remaining, minor aberrations caused by a mismatch in distance, if they are even perceptible to a human in the first place, can be easily corrected at that point in the EQ stage.

For a top frequency of 80Hz this would mean a mismatch of even 3.4 feet should still be within the 1/4 wavelength range I deem acceptable. I'm guerssing many here reading this disagree, but unless they have evidence based science showing people can hear it under level matched, double blind conditions, I have no interest in discussing the matter any further based on sighted anecdotal accounts nor demonstrations that it can be measured with instrumentation. That means nothing.
No argument there, however in this specific situation, as well as my personal situation, we are talking about needing to adjust delay for a nearfield sub to bring it back into proper time alignment with a farfield, often "Main" subwoofer setup. You could be talking about your "Main" sub being at a 10-15 foot distance while the nearfield sub is literally directly behind your seatback. In these instances, independent delay manipulation is almost essential. You may get lucky with a 180 degree phase shift, but it's never something you would want to count on.

If within 1/4 wavelength, two subs would essentially act as if they were a single sub, at the exact middle location between the two.

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