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post #2101 of 4705 Old 02-10-2017, 09:22 AM
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I'm running 4 subs with ARC and my rear subs are about 2 ft closer to my MLP as the fronts. I'm not noticing anything objectionable - in fact, I've never heard bass as tight and integrated like this outside of some Synthesis demos. The S2S-EX subs are definitely getting down to about 20 hz (if not a bit lower), nice and clean.
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post #2102 of 4705 Old 02-10-2017, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Jsin_N View Post
I would stick with the regular MiniDSP 2x4 or 2x4HD for subs. Or do the balanced version. Plenty good enough for subs.
Is there a balanced HD version, didn't see it.... I didn't see delay on the 2x4 plug-in pages, but probably missed it.

Honestly, the best solution (for me anyway) would be to get the new plate amps from Seaton that have x-over, level, delay built in. I could probably do everything I need with that. But, I need to get him on the horn first, and that seems hard to do lately.
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No argument there, however in this specific situation, as well as my personal situation, we are talking about needing to adjust delay for a nearfield sub to bring it back into proper time alignment with a farfield, often "Main" subwoofer setup. You could be talking about your "Main" sub being at a 10-15 foot distance while the nearfield sub is literally directly behind your seatback. In these instances, independent delay manipulation is almost essential. You may get lucky with a 180 degree phase shift, but it's never something you would want to count on.

If within 1/4 wavelength, two subs would essentially act as if they were a single sub, at the exact middle location between the two.
Exactly, I wouldn't care if they were close. But, my nearfield sub is like 2' away and my front wall sub is like 19'. I figure a 17' distance is probably enough to mess things up.
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post #2103 of 4705 Old 02-10-2017, 10:58 AM
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Is there a balanced HD version, didn't see it.... I didn't see delay on the 2x4 plug-in pages, but probably missed it.

Honestly, the best solution (for me anyway) would be to get the new plate amps from Seaton that have x-over, level, delay built in. I could probably do everything I need with that. But, I need to get him on the horn first, and that seems hard to do lately.

Exactly, I wouldn't care if they were close. But, my nearfield sub is like 2' away and my front wall sub is like 19'. I figure a 17' distance is probably enough to mess things up.
I'm not sure you need the HD version for subs. Unfortunately the 2x4 balanced isn't HD. The 4x10 is or you can use conversion cables/ends.

As for the speakerpower amps, I'm not sure what Seaton does with them, but you can also order them from the website.
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post #2104 of 4705 Old 02-10-2017, 12:41 PM
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I'm not sure you need the HD version for subs. Unfortunately the 2x4 balanced isn't HD. The 4x10 is or you can use conversion cables/ends.

As for the speakerpower amps, I'm not sure what Seaton does with them, but you can also order them from the website.
I probably don't, but I didn't see anything on the non-HD version to do delay. But, I can't seem to extract a lot of information off their site in a short period of time, so...I'll just defer to people who know.

Regardless, I got in touch with Mark Seaton (woot, I always feel like I've scored when that happens, the man's so busy) and I can leverage his awesome exchange offer to switch my current SubM amplifiers with a new amplifier that can do delay. His newest products offer awesome features that make them very easy to integrate. While I'm at it, I may pick up an F18 and slaves for the front-wall, too and move both my current SubM's to the rear.
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post #2105 of 4705 Old 02-10-2017, 01:14 PM
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I probably don't, but I didn't see anything on the non-HD version to do delay. But, I can't seem to extract a lot of information off their site in a short period of time, so...I'll just defer to people who know.

Regardless, I got in touch with Mark Seaton (woot, I always feel like I've scored when that happens, the man's so busy) and I can leverage his awesome exchange offer to switch my current SubM amplifiers with a new amplifier that can do delay. His newest products offer awesome features that make them very easy to integrate. While I'm at it, I may pick up an F18 and slaves for the front-wall, too and move both my current SubM's to the rear.
It's definitely there. The regular version only allows up to 7ms of delay difference though if I remember now why I bought the HD version. Turns out I didn't need anymore than that though. You set the delay to the subs based on the difference in the length from the furthest sub away. I thought about changing to speakerpower amps with the delays, but I still like the miniDSP because I can set target curves if I want (housecurve) with 4 different presets. Something to think about. Plus I get better results with than without.

If you're not about tweaking, what you have above will definitely work for you.
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post #2106 of 4705 Old 02-10-2017, 04:48 PM
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I really REALLY hate to bring this back up, but I saw this on a Facebook group I'm apart of called "Home Theater Enthusiasts" and I just kept thinking about the conversation in here about movie sound tracks with sub 20Hz material. I attached a picture to this post. It's hard for me to read, but according to the posts on Facebook, there is significant material down to the single digits on this movie. It was mentioned in here that newer movies are filtering out these frequencies more and more. So what do you make of this, intentional, or slop?
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post #2107 of 4705 Old 02-10-2017, 06:01 PM
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List of things that can't reproduce full level, clean, single digit bass in movies:

A) The control room monitors, mixing stage, etc., i.e. if it is there in the sound, the people who decide what the sound should be are unaware that it is there, hence it is not their intention for it to be there.
B) Any commercial movie theater in the United States [Psst, movies are made for these venues.]
C) 99.9% of consumer home movie theaters and television sets.

So what do you think? I vote slop/ someone forgot to engage their high pass filter.

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post #2108 of 4705 Old 02-10-2017, 06:06 PM
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People also can't hear single digit bass, but why should that matter?

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".
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post #2109 of 4705 Old 02-10-2017, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
List of things that can't reproduce full level, clean, single digit bass in movies:

A) The control room monitors, mixing stage, etc., i.e. if it is there in the sound, the people who decide what the sound should be are unaware that it is there, hence it is not their intention for it to be there.
B) Any commercial movie theater in the United States [Psst, movies are made for these venues.]
C) 99.9% of consumer home movie theaters and television sets.

So what do you think? I vote slop/ someone forgot to engage their high pass filter.
I would think slop as well, but how can that much be missed? On the facebook group, they're all giddy over this.
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post #2110 of 4705 Old 02-10-2017, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Blackdevil77 View Post
I really REALLY hate to bring this back up, but I saw this on a Facebook group I'm apart of called "Home Theater Enthusiasts" and I just kept thinking about the conversation in here about movie sound tracks with sub 20Hz material. I attached a picture to this post. It's hard for me to read, but according to the posts on Facebook, there is significant material down to the single digits on this movie. It was mentioned in here that newer movies are filtering out these frequencies more and more. So what do you make of this, intentional, or slop?
Was it intentional? I would say it was probably not intended directly. Most likely, no one said, "Wow! This effect would be so much more realistic if we put some strong 5 Hz bass in the track."

However, it does appear likely that the sound crew put a lot of work into recording or synthesizing realistic effects of military gun fire and explosions instead of hyping the 30-40 Hz range as is done for a lot of movies. The latter is likely to be louder and more bombastic, especially in a cinema. But the effects in the former soundtrack may resemble sounds in real life a lot more, even as they aren't as loud as the 30-40 Hz centric effects.

On systems that can accurately reproduce them, the full-bandwidth effects potentially have a lot more emotional impact. This is for two reasons. First of all, ,ost of us have at least some familiarity with the sound of large scale acoustic events such as large impacts, thunder, wind, large movement of water (waterfalls, turbulent oceans, etc., fireworks, rockets, sonic booms, and for those with military experience, military ordinance. Mind you, 125 SPL is weak sauce compared to the sound thunder and live fireworks up close, neither of which hold a candel to the SPL encountered from weapons of war. Nevertheless, all of these real life things are present at sufficient SPL for us to readily perceive the infrasonic content that is present. By reproducing this content in the scaled down replica of that sound in a movie, realism and immersion are increased and the experience is more emotionally impactful.

Infrasound doesn't just enhance big boomy action movies. Anyone familiar with "Song of the Sea"? SOtS is a family-friendly animation from the Irish Animation studio Cartoon Salon. The visuals of this film are breathtaking, and the infrasonic content throughout really stood out to me. I don't know if infrasonics were monitored or not, but I know that all kinds of stuff sounded very extended from combustion engines to wind, thunder, underwater, and the sound of ocean waves rolling in. Infrasound can terrify us like with explosions and storms and can relax as as with the sound of the ocean. Either way, it seems to act on a more primal level of sensory processing.

Don't knock it till you try it.

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post #2111 of 4705 Old 02-10-2017, 06:27 PM
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So everyone, please tell my what's your lowest perceived frequency?
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-aud...l#post50677409
Yes, obviously the limit may be your system, not your hearing, but this test simultaneously evaluates whatever your bottleneck is at normal listening levels.

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post #2112 of 4705 Old 02-10-2017, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
So everyone, please tell my what's your lowest perceived frequency?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/r4ppd06iuc...20wav.wav?dl=0

Yes, obviously the limit may be your system, not your hearing, but this test simultaneously evaluates whatever your bottleneck is.
This is not a reliable way to test your hearing limits at all nor is the same sort of thing suitable for measuring high frequency limits. For a valid test, you have to address the fact that SPL thresholds increase dramatically for low frequency sounds and you have to limit confounding factors like distortion. Almost any system without a high pass filter will make sound when presented with single digit bass at a high enough level. But very few will be able to reproduce the fundamental at a higher enough SPL to hear, and even fewer at sufficiently low distortion to make this test valid.

On the other hand, I already posted a scientific paper that documents human hearing of single digits bass as a distinct sensation from vibro-tactile stimulation. Furthermore, hearing SPL thresholds are lower than tactile thresholds when controlling the surroundings for mechanical vibration that be induced to vibrate with less SPL. This was also verified by testing with deaf people. Your response about blowing in people's ears seemed to be a bit mocking or maybe was just meant to be humorous. Either way, it doesn't look like you bothered to read the paper.

If you have technical criticism of the conclusions in that paper to contribute, then please do share it, but discounting the conclusions out of hand is not productive to the discussion.

If you want to argue about whether single digits content is relevant in film soundtracks, perhaps you might look at the SPL thresholds in that paper and compare to the amount of headroom available in a theatrical soundtrack. Apart from a small percentage of super-sensors who are unusually sensitive to infrasound, most people wouldn't be able to hear most of the under 10 Hz stuff at reference level playback. On the other hand, those with suspended floors, risers, or high quality tactile actuators may still perceive this content with most of these people arguing that it adds to the experience.

Edit: Here's that article again.
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post #2113 of 4705 Old 02-10-2017, 07:36 PM
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So, I'll use this post for two things -- one to further document my M2 experience, lol, and two to weigh in with a lot of speculation (and I chose that word specifically lest you think I have some sort of industry knowledge -- I don't) regarding the "super-sub-bass" < 20 hz / single digit stuff.

First M2s -- Clean box is working fine (though, it could use a lower noise floor, but I turned its gain down a bit to minimize), hum is busted, Crown amp gains back at 0 w/ input sensitivity set at 2.9v; MUCH BETTER! The pre doesn't have to work near as hard to get them to suitable levels, some odd "pulsing" dynamics in a few songs are gone...yeah, proper gain stage is good, lol. It could still probably use tweaking, but until I at least get a chance to level match to reference, I won't be mucking about more (and yes, I can hear it, "you didn't even level match yet", well no, not with a meter, just close enough with my ears).

Anyway, this does bring up a new "problem" that may not really be a problem. I can now hear a soft hissing in the horns. And it isn't the same in both horns. In one there's a little bit of a whine in there, too. It's nowhere near as distracting as the bloody dumb hum, and it's significantly less audible than the hum was, but it's there. It's also there without the XLRs connected to the amplifiers, so...I guess it's just intrinsic of these high efficiency drivers. I can't complain too much, it's not like the Cats were without any hiss, they certainly had some, too.

Additionally, can anyone tell me why the manual of the Crown says the input sensitivity is rated up to 8v but I can only adjust it via the amp's menu up to like 3.18? I find this odd...but maybe it's just something that either happens because of the M2 program or because it can't be adjusted above that without accessing the amp through the network?

Ok -- so, enough of that...more listening impressions:

Well, what can I say...detail, detail, detail, detail. Did I mention...detail? It's just crazy the things I've been hearing in tracks that I've listened to so many times I can't count. Though, it's sort of a love hate thing...I got a headache just from holding my eyes so closely shut so I could analyze every little piece of the song since there was so much more to hear than I've ever heard in that way before. I needed a beer...I think that was the problem...beer acquired, lol.

So, yeah, there's absolutely no doubt these things render music like nothing I've heard. Worth every penny? Well, if you have enough pennies...absolutely! I feel blessed that I did!

Now, for this super-sub-bass stuff -- remember I'm speculating like crazy here, but:

1) Obviously in the real world there is content here -- we feel thunder, what frequency is that at? I can find articles noting stuff all the way down to 6 hz and some that say even .2 (yes point 2) hz is a frequency responsible for generating thunder. Does it make its way to us, I don't know, the article is behind a paywall, lol. Additionally, cannon fire, insane artillery, helicopter blades, I'm sure the list goes on. If the mics can capture it and the gear maintain it all the way through editing and it's not "wasting" tons of bandwidth, I think the mix should contain it.

2) I'm going to go ahead and presume that we're entering a generation where folks who render sound content electrically or create special effects are taking notice of super-sub-bass. From music (e.g. EDM, Trap, etc genres) to movie effects trying to replicate in scale what we may have heard / felt in real life, super-sub-bass is being used.

So, if I had to try to decision tree this stuff, I'd say:

If the content has a ton of < 20 hz either: 1) it was engineered that way electronically to have a certain effect, 2) it wasn't properly removed and it's "slop".

If the content has a little bit and it seems erratic, it is probably "slop".

If the content has a little bit and it seems pretty natural, it was probably naturally recorded and preserved and not filtered out. And why should it be?

I don't know this is just my rambling thoughts, but....to wantonly dismiss it as always junk that should be removed seems really close minded. We're moving forward with technology that can reproduce it (think that rotary woofer which should be able to do it in larger spaces). Heck, we've always had technology that could be custom built to reproduce it (e.g. military simulations), now we're just figuring out how to bring it to more people. Why shouldn't we? Isn't this progress?

Just me....back to our regularly scheduled M2 discussion. I'm going back to my beer and listening, lol. My wife says I'm on deck for early baby duty in the morning, so I want to get as much listening in before I have to hit the sack.

edit: I had to put this in, too -- a long time back I remember some member (Vahalla PC, something, maybe) saying something about how when he turns off his monitor (or video signal) his sound gets better. Well, I'm in no way saying that it is for the reason he was proposing (I think some crazy electrical thing...I don't know). However, I will say, my Denon pops up the song info every time I change the volume or a new song comes on, it then video mutes it after a short period. Psycho-acoustically, every time the screen blanks, I can feel myself relaxing more into the music and suddenly it "sounds better". Maybe he had something, just attributed it to electronics rather than his brain. I post this, because I was listening to something with my laptop open here and as soon as it blanked the screen I had the same feeling. Darker = better sound...for me, anyway. Ok, now I'm done, lol.
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post #2114 of 4705 Old 02-10-2017, 08:16 PM
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This is not a reliable way to test your hearing limits at all nor is the same sort of thing suitable for measuring high frequency limits. For a valid test, you have to address the fact that SPL thresholds increase dramatically for low frequency sounds and you have to limit confounding factors like distortion..
The bass was made in the digital domain so if there is any distortion it is on your end, not mine. Riding the gain is not allowed. Anyone who argues "But of course we never reproduce our 100Hz sounds in a movie soundtrack at the same level as our 10 Hz tones: we always apply 30dB of boost during playback for that frequency" is cheating.

Tactile sensation is not hearing it is another sense. My test is for hearing at normal reproduction levels, and that's done with your cochlea.

You give me an article from "noise and health"? The question is not if bombarding a human with highly amplified noise is perceptible, by some combination of the senses, it is: "Is 10Hz sound and lower in movie soundtracks discernable [without riding the gain or applying huge amounts of EQ to unfairly boost that region] in actual, calibrated commercial movie house playback or commercially released music at the same playback level?" Here's the answer: It isn't.

10Hz and lower is never heard (via the cochlea) and through traditional loudspeakers, by any individual in any US cinema, at actually used playback levels, ever. Adding flashing LED lights or buzzing whoppie cushions to the seat and you are cheating by switching to another sense, not hearing.

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post #2115 of 4705 Old 02-10-2017, 08:29 PM
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Guys, I don't know how others feel but I'm all for occasional off topic digressions as I think they generally make threads more fun and interesting. However, once such a digression goes on "long enough" I sort of feel that the discussion should be continued in another thread. What do people think?
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Guys, I don't know how others feel but I'm all for occasional off topic digressions as I think they generally make threads more fun and interesting. However, once such a digression goes on "long enough" I sort of feel that the discussion should be continued in another thread. What do people think?
You're right. There are other places to discuss this sort of thing. If someone wants to discuss this further, I will happily follow to another thread. Except for m. zillch, for whom I believe further discussion would be unproductive.

And no, listening to sine tones at a constant level on whatever system is available is not at all a reliable way to assess how low (or how high) one can hear. The problem with distortion is that it causes *false positives*. In other words, it may give one the impression of hearing ability and/or reproduction capability that isn't actually there. I apologize if that wasn't obvious from my statement, but I've got to set the record straight. I read about people self-administering hearing tests all the time and coming away convinced by results that are actually meaningless because of the flawed test procedure.
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post #2117 of 4705 Old 02-11-2017, 09:03 AM
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I don't see what the big deal is. This thread stays pretty dormant if it doesn't go off topic. There's only so many M2 owners at the price they are, but I've enjoyed the sidebar conversation. Even if it went way passed the JBL sub extension side topic.
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post #2118 of 4705 Old 02-11-2017, 09:42 AM
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You're right. There are other places to discuss this sort of thing. If someone wants to discuss this further, I will happily follow to another thread. Except for m. zillch, for whom I believe further discussion would be unproductive.

And no, listening to sine tones at a constant level on whatever system is available is not at all a reliable way to assess how low (or how high) one can hear. The problem with distortion is that it causes *false positives*. In other words, it may give one the impression of hearing ability and/or reproduction capability that isn't actually there. I apologize if that wasn't obvious from my statement, but I've got to set the record straight. I read about people self-administering hearing tests all the time and coming away convinced by results that are actually meaningless because of the flawed test procedure.
Yeah, not an audiologist, but I'd guess the gear they use to assess hearing loss is calibrated to accurately produce pure tones. Which, I'd think, is not quite the same as a calibration we'd do to enjoy music / movies.
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post #2119 of 4705 Old 02-11-2017, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Zzzzz... View Post
Guys, I don't know how others feel but I'm all for occasional off topic digressions as I think they generally make threads more fun and interesting. However, once such a digression goes on "long enough" I sort of feel that the discussion should be continued in another thread. What do people think?
Yeah, when posts relating to the actual thread topic are drowned out by the off-topic stuff, its too much. The JTR thread is a great example of how to do it. It goes off topic but when post related to JTR speakers pops up the thread snaps back.

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So, I'll use this post for two things -- one to further document my M2 experience, lol, and two to weigh in with a lot of speculation (and I chose that word specifically lest you think I have some sort of industry knowledge -- I don't) regarding the "super-sub-bass" < 20 hz / single digit stuff.

First M2s -- Clean box is working fine (though, it could use a lower noise floor, but I turned its gain down a bit to minimize), hum is busted, Crown amp gains back at 0 w/ input sensitivity set at 2.9v; MUCH BETTER! The pre doesn't have to work near as hard to get them to suitable levels, some odd "pulsing" dynamics in a few songs are gone...yeah, proper gain stage is good, lol. It could still probably use tweaking, but until I at least get a chance to level match to reference, I won't be mucking about more (and yes, I can hear it, "you didn't even level match yet", well no, not with a meter, just close enough with my ears).

Anyway, this does bring up a new "problem" that may not really be a problem. I can now hear a soft hissing in the horns. And it isn't the same in both horns. In one there's a little bit of a whine in there, too. It's nowhere near as distracting as the bloody dumb hum, and it's significantly less audible than the hum was, but it's there. It's also there without the XLRs connected to the amplifiers, so...I guess it's just intrinsic of these high efficiency drivers. I can't complain too much, it's not like the Cats were without any hiss, they certainly had some, too.
I heard that whine when we turned them on and I think it is power related. Hissing is intrinsicly amp related and is different from that. Hum is likely cable related or a ground loop.

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Additionally, can anyone tell me why the manual of the Crown says the input sensitivity is rated up to 8v but I can only adjust it via the amp's menu up to like 3.18? I find this odd...but maybe it's just something that either happens because of the M2 program or because it can't be adjusted above that without accessing the amp through the network?
There is a setting you have to make on the amp to go lower than 3.18. There are two levels of input sensitivity.

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Ok -- so, enough of that...more listening impressions:

Well, what can I say...detail, detail, detail, detail. Did I mention...detail? It's just crazy the things I've been hearing in tracks that I've listened to so many times I can't count. Though, it's sort of a love hate thing...I got a headache just from holding my eyes so closely shut so I could analyze every little piece of the song since there was so much more to hear than I've ever heard in that way before. I needed a beer...I think that was the problem...beer acquired, lol.
Glad to read you're liking them . As I've said in the past, I feel like I'm not just listening "to" the music, but instead "into" the music. Sounds like you might be experiencing something similar.

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So, yeah, there's absolutely no doubt these things render music like nothing I've heard. Worth every penny? Well, if you have enough pennies...absolutely! I feel blessed that I did!
Yep, I'm with ya.

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edit: I had to put this in, too -- a long time back I remember some member (Vahalla PC, something, maybe) saying something about how when he turns off his monitor (or video signal) his sound gets better. Well, I'm in no way saying that it is for the reason he was proposing (I think some crazy electrical thing...I don't know). However, I will say, my Denon pops up the song info every time I change the volume or a new song comes on, it then video mutes it after a short period. Psycho-acoustically, every time the screen blanks, I can feel myself relaxing more into the music and suddenly it "sounds better". Maybe he had something, just attributed it to electronics rather than his brain. I post this, because I was listening to something with my laptop open here and as soon as it blanked the screen I had the same feeling. Darker = better sound...for me, anyway. Ok, now I'm done, lol.
The M2 rewards every bit of isolation dedicated to listening. Far more than other speakers I've owned. They just keep giving. Listening at night with the super low noise floor and isolation of the dark is simply an amazing experience. At times, it's hard to believe how good they sound.

Last edited by Gooddoc; 02-11-2017 at 09:48 AM.
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post #2120 of 4705 Old 02-11-2017, 01:52 PM
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. . . I sort of feel that the discussion should be continued in another thread.
Fair enough. For people that would like to test if there seems to be any valid reason for a movie to have 10 Hz sound for commercial movie theater reproduction, not that there are any that can do that, I now have a dedicated thread where people can try out my new and improved test, version 2, just posted:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-aud...l#post50677409

My test is one of the few that goes all the way down to 1 Hz!

PS. Although the posted chart only goes down to 20Hz (Hmm, I wonder what made them stop at that frequency?), use the equal loudness contour chart there to extrapolate how much louder a 10Hz tone would need to be compared to an 80 phon signal at 100Hz and then ask yourself this: "Does a movie contain *gulp* +40dB of headroom to accommodate the gain necessary for that 10Hz sound, assuming such a frequency is even audible in the first place?"
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post #2121 of 4705 Old 02-11-2017, 03:53 PM
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Where did you guys settle on toe in, for music in 2 channel?
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post #2122 of 4705 Old 02-11-2017, 06:41 PM
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Where did you guys settle on toe in, for music in 2 channel?
I am also curious what toe in seems to work. My M2s are pointed directly at my head with 9' center line spacing of speakers and 12' from speaker to listening position. 2'6" from side walls and 6' from front wall. Since the M2 is crossed over at 80Hz to the Sub18, this takes their position from the front wall beyond the point of boundary cancellation from that wall. The sub is located 1/4 over from left wall at room null position, and close to front wall in order to place the wall boundary cancellation well above 80Hz. This was all worked out with many measurements using REW. When the M2s are run full range without the sub, there is a huge 30db drop from 80 to 40Hz probably due to front wall boundary cancellation, so I never run this configuration.

I have just added three 2'x4'x4" absorbing panels suspended 4" at first reflection point on the ceiling, and it has really helped to clean up the upper and mid frequencies. Highly recommended. I am leaving lateral first reflections alone as suggested by Floyd Toole.

The sound is awesome, but I am still playing with toe in, so I am curious what others have found to be optimum.
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post #2123 of 4705 Old 02-11-2017, 07:29 PM
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I have just added three 2'x4'x4" absorbing panels suspended 4" at first reflection point on the ceiling, and it has really helped to clean up the upper and mid frequencies. Highly recommended. I am leaving lateral first reflections alone as suggested by Floyd Toole.
I want to do this too, but my Atmos ceiling speakers have complicated the task.

As to toe-in, I toe in slightly pointing at the outside seating.
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post #2124 of 4705 Old 02-11-2017, 07:38 PM
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People also can't hear single digit bass, but why should that matter?
They wanna feel the rotor whoosh in Black Hawk Down.
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post #2125 of 4705 Old 02-13-2017, 11:01 AM
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edit: I had to put this in, too -- a long time back I remember some member (Vahalla PC, something, maybe) saying something about how when he turns off his monitor (or video signal) his sound gets better. Well, I'm in no way saying that it is for the reason he was proposing (I think some crazy electrical thing...I don't know). However, I will say, my Denon pops up the song info every time I change the volume or a new song comes on, it then video mutes it after a short period. Psycho-acoustically, every time the screen blanks, I can feel myself relaxing more into the music and suddenly it "sounds better". Maybe he had something, just attributed it to electronics rather than his brain. I post this, because I was listening to something with my laptop open here and as soon as it blanked the screen I had the same feeling. Darker = better sound...for me, anyway. Ok, now I'm done, lol.
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The M2 rewards every bit of isolation dedicated to listening. Far more than other speakers I've owned. They just keep giving. Listening at night with the super low noise floor and isolation of the dark is simply an amazing experience. At times, it's hard to believe how good they sound.
Yes, additional sensory deprivation takes you to an entirely different level of immersion when listening to a good source, through an excellent set of speakers. I have been working on taking my room to "Next Level Darkness" and so far, I feel I have succeeded beyond what I thought possible previous. I've dimmed down (or out) all electronics LEDS, removed the electric reclining seat controls and black nail-polished over the LEDS in there, and electric-taped over the marantz port-hole display that I can't get the ring of blue to disappear from for some reason. When listening to music with the PJ off, you can't tell if your eyes are opened or closed any more. It's unbelievable.

Couple vision deprivation with a nose plug to remove of smell, 8 beers so you can't feel anything, and a quick swill of saline water to remove all taste, and you only have one sense that you need to focus on: Hearing. It really is quite an experience!

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post #2126 of 4705 Old 02-13-2017, 11:27 AM
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SEOS Fusion 10 Max, 88 Special, Volt 10 LX, SVS PB10 and DIY SI18 subs, Denon X4000, JVC RS400 & 2.35:1 AT Screen
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post #2127 of 4705 Old 02-13-2017, 12:17 PM
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Couple vision deprivation with a nose plug to remove of smell, 8 beers so you can't feel anything, and a quick swill of saline water to remove all taste, and you only have one sense that you need to focus on: Hearing. It really is quite an experience!


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post #2128 of 4705 Old 02-13-2017, 12:18 PM
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*snip*
Couple vision deprivation with a nose plug to remove of smell, 8 beers so you can't feel anything, and a quick swill of saline water to remove all taste, and you only have one sense that you need to focus on: Hearing. It really is quite an experience!
LOL, I'll stick to the beers and darkness...not too dark, though -- don't want to spill my beer!
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post #2129 of 4705 Old 02-13-2017, 12:30 PM
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Some of those float tanks have audio transducers built in on the bottom (I would guestimate 300hz-5Khz bandwidth). Phaedra from Tangerine Dream is kind of nice to listen to in a flotation tank.

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post #2130 of 4705 Old 02-13-2017, 12:38 PM
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Does our forum have a sensory deprivation flotation tank talk section?
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