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post #2311 of 4623 Old 03-20-2017, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
The person I talked to at JBL told me he did not want to jump in and comment on that debate - but he DID tell me that he is personally using the DCi4|1250n in his own home. And this is someone who knows that speaker inside and out

Audible differences in amps is something not agreed on by all at Harman. Some say there are audible differences, others say no, with the general consensus being that any well designed amp operating within its limits should sound like another.

Interestingly Kevin V. at CES told me they may start bringing amps into the MLL for double blind evaluations. I'd love to see (hear) that!
That's very telling!
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post #2312 of 4623 Old 03-20-2017, 04:52 PM
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Hey John - do you typically like to keep your subs flat relative to the mains or are you following more of the Synth curve (or similar) on the AVM60?
I just let ARC do it's thing and have been very happy with the auto settings in this regard. Someday my system will be Synthesis so I haven't tried much in the way of custom setup.
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post #2313 of 4623 Old 03-20-2017, 07:46 PM
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What are you guys using in terms of AC power? In my case:

3 x M2 = 3,600w
8 x 705/708 = 2,400w
4 x JL f113 = 8,000w
projector = 1200w max
AVM60 + SDEC = 100w

That's 15,300 watts max on the output side. Class D is efficient but nothing is 100%. But then I am not realistically going to use all that power at once, so it's a wash? 2,400 per 20amp circuit. Does that mean I need 7 (6.375) dedicated 20amp lines to power my gear?

I've been getting conflicting info. Some say get one 20 amp circuit and run everything off of it. Others say I need 7+... basically a dedicated 20amp circuit for each component. Original design was for a ~6,000w isolation transformer which powered everything (except lights).

 

 

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post #2314 of 4623 Old 03-20-2017, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by rabident View Post
What are you guys using in terms of AC power? In my case:

3 x M2 = 3,600w
8 x 705/708 = 2,400w
4 x JL f113 = 8,000w
projector = 1200w max
AVM60 + SDEC = 100w

That's 15,300 watts max on the output side. Class D is efficient but nothing is 100%. But then I am not realistically going to use all that power at once, so it's a wash? 2,400 per 20amp circuit. Does that mean I need 7 (6.375) dedicated 20amp lines to power my gear?

I've been getting conflicting info. Some say get one 20 amp circuit and run everything off of it. Others say I need 7+... basically a dedicated 20amp circuit for each component. Original design was for a ~6,000w isolation transformer which powered everything (except lights).
I had a dedicated sub panel installed, 20 breaker, and put 15 or 20 amp circuits for anything connected in the theater. Amps, projector, and primary source rack all have 20 amp circuits, secondary source locations have 15 amp.

It's more important having the dedicated panel, isolated from the house and properly wired and grounded - whether they are 15 or 20 amp less important (only the 2400 watt and higher amps require 20 amp circuits I believe)
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post #2315 of 4623 Old 03-21-2017, 04:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabident View Post
What are you guys using in terms of AC power? In my case:

3 x M2 = 3,600w
8 x 705/708 = 2,400w
4 x JL f113 = 8,000w
projector = 1200w max
AVM60 + SDEC = 100w

That's 15,300 watts max on the output side. Class D is efficient but nothing is 100%. But then I am not realistically going to use all that power at once, so it's a wash? 2,400 per 20amp circuit. Does that mean I need 7 (6.375) dedicated 20amp lines to power my gear?

I've been getting conflicting info. Some say get one 20 amp circuit and run everything off of it. Others say I need 7+... basically a dedicated 20amp circuit for each component. Original design was for a ~6,000w isolation transformer which powered everything (except lights).
Same here. Dedicated panel and a dedicated 20amp circuit for each amp and one for all source gear.
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post #2316 of 4623 Old 03-21-2017, 04:24 AM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
OK, recent input from JBL:

The DCi14|1250n is a great amp to pair with a set of M2s for even large home theater spaces. In fact, it was developed with the M2 in mind - plenty of power except for all but the most strenuous of professional applications (large mix suites / unmastered, raw recordings). We ran the M2s during all three of our HT Seminars off of the Synthesis SDA4600 (the same as the DCi4|600n) and it handled even the large hotel spaces without any issues, and it's half the power.

The anechoic data / DSP is the same for the DCi-n amps as for the iTechs.

Obviously, lots of love for the Anthem AVM60 here. BTW, we had Kris Deering - tech editor for Sound and Vision - out for our Seminars and he is a huge fan of the AVM60 as well.
Thanks for all of the feedback on the processor.

All of these processors seem to mainly have HDMI inputs. I have tended to use a USB input on a streaming renderer for music feed. It looks like I may have to use an USB to HDMI cable to make that solution work.

The Sonore micro Rendu is the device that I have used.

Thanks!
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post #2317 of 4623 Old 03-21-2017, 06:40 AM
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I don't have a crawl or a basement, so I had to use the wiring that is there.

I have all the crown amps, Plasma, Anthem, DirectTV, Oppo, and two high power sub (5k and 3.6kw) amps on one 20 A breaker. I have another sub amp (5k) on another. It's just the way I have to have it and don't have a choice unless I rip out drywall and rewire.

I've tripped the breaker 3 times and it was extremely loud running the subs 5-10db hot.

I would like to have everything isolated and 20-30 amp extras, but, in my experience, I've gotten by great as is. Minus the 3 times. I wouldn't listen that loud very often anyway.
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post #2318 of 4623 Old 03-21-2017, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by jtwrace View Post
I'm following this thread carefully as I'm planning to listen to M2's soon.
While not the m2's I am just a short 2 hr. or so drive up the mountain if you want to hear the 4367's in a dedicated space. Same componentry, just a passive design as opposed to active, which very well may be a viable option for you if having to have amps in the same room. The lower noise floor of running fanless amps on the 4367's would very easily trump the benefits of the m2 with those vacuum cleaner itechs in the same room.

But then again, does the dci 4|1250 not have any fans or runs silent? I have no experience with it, so perhaps someone can answer that question.

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Thanks Blackdevil. Glad you enjoyed it! Was nice having you.
How are you liking the 4500? Did you have one of the newer JVC's beforehand, like the rs600? any impressions and thoughts between the two would be great. You can pm if you don't want to clog up this thread

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post #2319 of 4623 Old 03-21-2017, 09:28 AM
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That's my issue, not wanting to tear into the soundproof shell to install a sub panel, run new wire, and outlets. I can plug an isolation transformer into the 240v and get 50amps @ 120v available through multiple 20a and 15a sockets. I suspect that will be enough at realistic volumes & not test tones. But with a drywall crew already going to be onsite for soffit work, now would be the best time to do a sub panel if I was going to do it. I wish I could plug everything in and try it, but that's not really an option.

When you guys say isolated, is a sub panel considered isolated if it is dedicated to the theater, or did you do something special to isolate it like the Torus, Equitech, or RichardGray products? Does it matter if the sub panel is fed from one of the main house breaker boxes, or it should be fed from the outside service box?

 

 

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post #2320 of 4623 Old 03-21-2017, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtwrace View Post
I'm following this thread carefully as I'm planning to listen to M2's soon.
While not the m2's I am just a short 2 hr. or so drive up the mountain if you want to hear the 4367's in a dedicated space. Same componentry, just a passive design as opposed to active, which very well may be a viable option for you if having to have amps in the same room. The lower noise floor of running fanless amps on the 4367's would very easily trump the benefits of the m2 with those vacuum cleaner itechs in the same room.

But then again, does the dci 4|1250 not have any fans or runs silent? I have no experience with it, so perhaps someone can answer that question.

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Thanks Blackdevil. Glad you enjoyed it! Was nice having you.
How are you liking the 4500? Did you have one of the newer JVC's beforehand, like the rs600? any impressions and thoughts between the two would be great. You can pm if you don't want to clog up this thread
If you're willing to let me have a listen I'd love to come up. I can't PM you here since I have less than 15 posts. Can you PM me and I be able to respond?
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post #2321 of 4623 Old 03-21-2017, 09:48 AM
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The DCi Amps all have fans and they're loud enough, but not as loud as the iTechs.
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post #2322 of 4623 Old 03-21-2017, 10:21 AM
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The DCi Amps all have fans and they're loud enough, but not as loud as the iTechs.
Thanks. It seems as though a DCI has a better chance of not tripping breakers too based on the spec sheet of current draw.
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I'm actually curious, I'm sure @notnyt knows the answer to this. What are the limiters set to in the ITechs/DCi amps with the M2 presets? Does the woofer get the full 1250 from the ITech? I'm sure the second channel with the compression driver presets are greatly reduced from the full 1250 watts into 8 ohms, although I believe the CD in the M2s are 20 ohms.
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post #2324 of 4623 Old 03-21-2017, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Blackdevil77 View Post
I'm actually curious, I'm sure @notnyt knows the answer to this. What are the limiters set to in the ITechs/DCi amps with the M2 presets? Does the woofer get the full 1250 from the ITech? I'm sure the second channel with the compression driver presets are greatly reduced from the full 1250 watts into 8 ohms, although I believe the CD in the M2s are 20 ohms.
The M2 has two tuning files for the LF section. One with a 27hz HPF and one without.

They both have a limiter set to 128Vpk on the LF section. This is between 1000 and 1400 watts depending on the impedance of the cab which I don't recall seeing plotted, though the driver is 5 ohms.

Here are the tunings for the M2.




Last edited by notnyt; 03-21-2017 at 10:46 AM.
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post #2325 of 4623 Old 03-21-2017, 12:44 PM
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The M2 has two tuning files for the LF section. One with a 27hz HPF and one without.

They both have a limiter set to 128Vpk on the LF section. This is between 1000 and 1400 watts depending on the impedance of the cab which I don't recall seeing plotted, though the driver is 5 ohms.
Very interesting, thanks. Wow, no limiter set for the D2 compression driver, I'm surprised. Then again, maybe it's not that surprising since it's impedance is rated at 20 ohms.
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Thanks. It seems as though a DCI has a better chance of not tripping breakers too based on the spec sheet of current draw.
I really think there is a low probability either way. I have a ton of ish on one 20 amp. You'll be fine with either
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post #2327 of 4623 Old 03-21-2017, 01:53 PM
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Very interesting, thanks. Wow, no limiter set for the D2 compression driver, I'm surprised. Then again, maybe it's not that surprising since it's impedance is rated at 20 ohms.
Yeah, doubt the compression driver would ever see anything close to full power. Honestly, I'm wondering if the iTech 5000HD isn't a waste, having so much headroom that will never be used or be limited away.

I wish Harmon built profiles that would allow us to amplify the M2s horizontally...guess we could always wipe the pre-built profiles from our amps and do it manually if so inclined.
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post #2328 of 4623 Old 03-21-2017, 02:46 PM
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I really think there is a low probability either way. I have a ton of ish on one 20 amp. You'll be fine with either
Thanks.
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post #2329 of 4623 Old 03-21-2017, 03:04 PM
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Yeah, doubt the compression driver would ever see anything close to full power. Honestly, I'm wondering if the iTech 5000HD isn't a waste, having so much headroom that will never be used or be limited away.

I wish Harmon built profiles that would allow us to amplify the M2s horizontally...guess we could always wipe the pre-built profiles from our amps and do it manually if so inclined.
Seems to me the amps are sized well considering the limiters. You'd be lucky to get another dB or two of clean power if the limiters were removed, and this keeps the M2 in the sweet spot of the amp at all times. It's exactly how I would want it sized.

They do have horizontal profiles, just not publicly available.
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Seems to me the amps are sized well considering the limiters. You'd be lucky to get another dB or two of clean power if the limiters were removed, and this keeps the M2 in the sweet spot of the amp at all times. It's exactly how I would want it sized.

They do have horizontal profiles, just not publicly available.
I agree the limiter isn't going to be taking away much from the bass driver, but there is so much "wasted" power on the compression driver. Though, I suppose horizontally bi-amping them with a smaller amp on the compression driver isn't going to save a lot of money. But, if I were to buy a center, I may consider re-purposing the one iTech to L/R woofer duty and instead of buying another iTech, buy something less for the L/R compression and use the other iTech for the whole center (only because I already have it). I guess, though, that'd depend if the cost of another iTech vs. whatever I could use for the compression drivers made fiscal sense over the PITA of configuring it, lol.
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I agree the limiter isn't going to be taking away much from the bass driver, but there is so much "wasted" power on the compression driver. Though, I suppose horizontally bi-amping them with a smaller amp on the compression driver isn't going to save a lot of money. But, if I were to buy a center, I may consider re-purposing the one iTech to L/R woofer duty and instead of buying another iTech, buy something less for the L/R compression and use the other iTech for the whole center (only because I already have it). I guess, though, that'd depend if the cost of another iTech vs. whatever I could use for the compression drivers made fiscal sense over the PITA of configuring it, lol.
Yeah, a single box is the simplest solution. Given the amount of problems and questions with this current level of complexity, it's clear anything more would be a support nightmare.
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post #2332 of 4623 Old 03-21-2017, 03:30 PM
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Very interesting, thanks. Wow, no limiter set for the D2 compression driver, I'm surprised. Then again, maybe it's not that surprising since it's impedance is rated at 20 ohms.
They actually have a pair of 16 ohm coils, and it's run at 32 ohms iirc. Still, 128Vpk into 32 ohms is like 256 watts. That's fairly significant. That said, it would also be fairly painful. I don't think people are that likely to push treble as hard as they are bass, so who knows.
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They actually have a pair of 16 ohm coils, and it's run at 32 ohms iirc. Still, 128Vpk into 32 ohms is like 256 watts. That's fairly significant. That said, it would also be fairly painful. I don't think people are that likely to push treble as hard as they are bass, so who knows.
That's very interesting as well. For how much they harp on how important measurements are, there sure are inconsistencies with their published specs. The M2 manual states the nominal impedance is 20 ohms. The manual also says the peak SPL is 129db while their website says 123db.

Either way, 256 watts is still insanity into a compression driver.
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That's very interesting as well. For how much they harp on how important measurements are, there sure are inconsistencies with their published specs. The M2 manual states the nominal impedance is 20 ohms. The manual also says the peak SPL is 129db while their website says 123db.

Either way, 256 watts is still insanity into a compression driver.
peak spl is +6db over a real spl reading. It's like the peak watts crap :/

They also have a small network for the HF section, that might drop the impedance and pad the driver further. I'm gonna pull up the schematics now.
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There is an lpad, R1= 13R, R2 = 11R, so looking at like 8-9db of padding, so likely why there's no concern for sending too much power to it.
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post #2336 of 4623 Old 03-21-2017, 05:54 PM
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peak spl is +6db over a real spl reading. It's like the peak watts crap :/

They also have a small network for the HF section, that might drop the impedance and pad the driver further. I'm gonna pull up the schematics now.
Ah, okay

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There is an lpad, R1= 13R, R2 = 11R, so looking at like 8-9db of padding, so likely why there's no concern for sending too much power to it.
Cool, thanks for the info. Sounds like they definitely had amps like the I-tech in mind when designing the D2 for the M2.
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post #2337 of 4623 Old 03-21-2017, 06:42 PM
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Ah, okay



Cool, thanks for the info. Sounds like they definitely had amps like the I-tech in mind when designing the D2 for the M2.
Well a benefit of such high impedance is you don't need as much padding to bring the noise floor down. I went to great lengths to keep my setup quiet while running it active.
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post #2338 of 4623 Old 03-21-2017, 09:59 PM
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That's my issue, not wanting to tear into the soundproof shell to install a sub panel, run new wire, and outlets. I can plug an isolation transformer into the 240v and get 50amps @ 120v available through multiple 20a and 15a sockets. I suspect that will be enough at realistic volumes & not test tones. But with a drywall crew already going to be onsite for soffit work, now would be the best time to do a sub panel if I was going to do it. I wish I could plug everything in and try it, but that's not really an option.

When you guys say isolated, is a sub panel considered isolated if it is dedicated to the theater, or did you do something special to isolate it like the Torus, Equitech, or RichardGray products? Does it matter if the sub panel is fed from one of the main house breaker boxes, or it should be fed from the outside service box?
There is a special breaker that connects a sub panel to the main.

Isolated refers to the ground. All circuits (the grind wire) are connected directly to the panel bus bar ground not bonded in any junction boxes.

Dedicated is when a circuit powers only specific equipment and nothing else.

Connection to the main is best if it all possible. This will depend on the size of service you have (most homes are 200 amp, mine is 400 with 2 panels). Another factor is getting a feed wire to the second panel directly.

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post #2339 of 4623 Old 03-21-2017, 10:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
OK, recent input from JBL:

The DCi14|1250n is a great amp to pair with a set of M2s for even large home theater spaces. In fact, it was developed with the M2 in mind .
Say what... ?

Mike Miles
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post #2340 of 4623 Old 03-21-2017, 10:42 PM
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From what I was told, part of the impetus to develop the DCi1250n series was to create a less expensive alternative to the iTech. Charles Sprinkle is powering his personal pair of M2s with the DCi4|1250n.

Or are you referring to my DCi14 typo?

John Schuermann
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