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post #2521 of 4604 Old 04-17-2017, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
Just to be clear, I'm not interpreting - it's a straight cut and paste into the thread. Again, it's not my math. I didn't write those words.

If you don't understand why the engineers don't want to post here directly, you need to look up the word "irony" in the dictionary, lol. Those guys have much better things to do with their time than get bogged down in this kind of pedantic back and forth. My point is that one *might* be grateful that they take any time at all to help answer some of the technical questions that come up here, and that one might be at least *respectful* of the effort I put in to go to the source to get clarification. Even if one *disagrees* with the feedback received.

Speaking of pedantic, much of this is moot anyway. The bottom line is whether or not the LSR708 will hit appropriate volume levels for typical home theater sized rooms, at typical 8 - 12 foot listening distances, in bass managed installations while listening to mastered (vs. raw) recorded material. The answer is "yes." And it will do so with very high degree of accuracy.

Apart from whether or not the LSR708 can hit theatrical reference levels at XX distance, do you disagree that:

Listening at theatrical reference levels in a typical 16' x 20' home theater space is neither desirable nor healthy;

That "reference level" is simply a calibration spec, and may have little to do with the actual peak levels required by a properly mastered film soundtrack;

The best way to recreate what the filmmaker's intended (and the mix engineer heard on the mix stage) is to set the volume level where the dialogue sounds comfortably loud and fully intelligible, and then let everything else fall where it may?

Isn't the above ultimately what matters?
When useful and factual information is presented, then respect will be earned. When you post obviously erroneous info, I will continue to point it out and correct it. Whether your goals are noble, or to sell speakers, I'm just responding to the information that's posted.

When someone with an LSR708 in a normal room took measurements, it was incapable of meeting the levels you mentioned across the frequency range, even bass managed. It fell short by 5db at 150hz.

As for comfortable listening levels, sure, it will do it, though it will have higher distortion and reduced dynamics compared to a more efficient speaker when asked to reproduce louder content. Looking at Gooddoc's 100dbspl sweep, spl was peaking around 10%, often over 5%. At 95db, there were still distortion peaks over 5%. Those numbers were well above where bass management would help. If someone wanted to listen to some bass heavy music at spirited levels, quality will be impacted.

You're welcome to take measurements and get your own results. You have a calibrated measurement mic, right?
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post #2522 of 4604 Old 04-17-2017, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
When useful and factual information is presented, then respect will be earned. When you post obviously erroneous info, I will continue to point it out and correct it. Whether your goals are noble, or to sell speakers, I'm just responding to the information that's posted.

When someone with an LSR708 in a normal room took measurements, it was incapable of meeting the levels you mentioned across the frequency range, even bass managed. It fell short by 5db at 150hz.

As for comfortable listening levels, sure, it will do it, though it will have higher distortion and reduced dynamics compared to a more efficient speaker when asked to reproduce louder content. Looking at Gooddoc's 100dbspl sweep, spl was peaking around 10%, often over 5%. At 95db, there were still distortion peaks over 5%. Those numbers were well above where bass management would help. If someone wanted to listen to some bass heavy music at spirited levels, quality will be impacted.

You're welcome to take measurements and get your own results. You have a calibrated measurement mic, right?
Let's all just remember there is the possibility that Gooddoc's measurements could be f'd up too . I have no way to verify the accuracy of my mic and I'm just an enthusiast experimenting and sharing my findings on a community forum.

My sweeps, documentation, and scientific method were not rigorous enough for publication in a journal

I do think that if Sprinkle is questioning my findings then I think it would be prudent to suspend relying on my measurements as proof of anything until we gain some further clarification and perhaps some other measurements.

Just my 2 cents .
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post #2523 of 4604 Old 04-17-2017, 07:50 PM
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Assuming your measurements were done with an acceptable amount of uncertainty, I thought the indicated performance went above my expectations for that size of driver. Of course, it didn't align with their spec but I've thought their spec was downhill/downwind. They could have just published their compression data just to begin with but the data disclosure aspect of the 7 series has always been contrary to what JBL has been advocating for the industry and had been building expectations by leading by example.

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post #2524 of 4604 Old 04-17-2017, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
Let's all just remember there is the possibility that Gooddoc's measurements could be f'd up too . I have no way to verify the accuracy of my mic and I'm just an enthusiast experimenting and sharing my findings on a community forum.

My sweeps, documentation, and scientific method were not rigorous enough for publication in a journal

I do think that if Sprinkle is questioning my findings then I think it would be prudent to suspend relying on my measurements as proof of anything until we gain some further clarification and perhaps some other measurements.

Just my 2 cents .
Your measurements aside, there were just so many bad numbers being thrown around. Your measurements looked pretty good to me, but that was just one of many gripes lol. I just used your measurements as an example of a typical room.

We'll see if any other measurements turn up.

JBL publishes the xmax of the lsr708 as 7mm. There's only so much you can do with the given amount of Vd.
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post #2525 of 4604 Old 04-17-2017, 08:03 PM
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Assuming your measurements were done with an acceptable amount of uncertainty
As they say, there are known knowns, known unknowns, and unknown unknowns. The latter need to be respected .
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post #2526 of 4604 Old 04-18-2017, 08:51 AM
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Maybe I haven't experienced the right setup, but if you guys need more output than a bass managed 708i for surrounds in a small room, you mofos need to check your hearing.

Regarding AT screens. This is where ignorance is bliss, for me at least. I have a Seymour AT screen. I like it. I sit about 10' back and I don't notice any mesh or blurriness, but then I am an audio enthusiast far before being a video enthusiast. I just think having three matched speakers behind the screen (or the L&R flanking the sides) is super beneficial to the sound experience, and something I place a high priority on. If that means giving up a few % to the ideal picture so be it.
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post #2527 of 4604 Old 04-18-2017, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by AudioJosh View Post
Maybe I haven't experienced the right setup, but if you guys need more output than a bass managed 708i for surrounds in a small room, you mofos need to check your hearing.

Regarding AT screens. This is where ignorance is bliss, for me at least. I have a Seymour AT screen. I like it. I sit about 10' back and I don't notice any mesh or blurriness, but then I am an audio enthusiast far before being a video enthusiast. I just think having three matched speakers behind the screen (or the L&R flanking the sides) is super beneficial to the sound experience, and something I place a high priority on. If that means giving up a few % to the ideal picture so be it.
Totally get it, and I am an audio guy first and foremost as well. My theater doubles as our showroom, and if I don't show off the $35K retail JVC RS4500 at its best, I'm doing the company a disservice.

The main thing you notice is the reduction in gain - going from my 1.3 gain StudioTek130 down to a woven screen means giving up about 30% in brightness overall. When it comes to viewing HDR material via a projection system, you can't really afford to give up any brightness. I could go to a perfed StudioTek130, but that still means about a 15% reduction in brightness plus the possibility of seeing the perfs.

As projectors get brighter, this will be less and less of an issue.

You might have seen this, but Accucal shows Seymour woven screens as "best in class," so that's good news:

https://www.accucalav.com/accucal_fr...screen_report/

The Stewart screens pretty much dominate the "best in class" ratings in most other categories.

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post #2528 of 4604 Old 04-18-2017, 09:32 AM
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For anyone interested, I have some new clarifying comments from JBL regarding some of the controversy that has been going on in this thread lately re: the LSR708 in regard to SPL, limiters, and other topics. I am not going to post the comments here, because rather than further the discussion it simply ends up turning into a boring squabble-fest. However, anyone is free to PM me for the info if interested. Let's just say that JBL actually does know what they are doing

As I mentioned yesterday, the engineers at JBL have better things to do than get dragged down in pedantic, un-constructive debates. I've had the good fortune of being able to cultivate good relationships with various engineers and higher ups at Harman, and this has allowed me to "go to the source" when questions of substance arise on the Forums. In honor of those relationships, the last thing I want to do is waste any of these hard working people's time. Unfortunately, this discussion has crossed that line for them.

Again, feel free to PM me for more.

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post #2529 of 4604 Old 04-18-2017, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioJosh View Post
Maybe I haven't experienced the right setup, but if you guys need more output than a bass managed 708i for surrounds in a small room, you mofos need to check your hearing.
Agreed
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post #2530 of 4604 Old 04-18-2017, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioJosh View Post
Maybe I haven't experienced the right setup, but if you guys need more output than a bass managed 708i for surrounds in a small room, you mofos need to check your hearing.
Would you say a bass managed 708i could also work for LCR in a small room?

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post #2531 of 4604 Old 04-18-2017, 03:05 PM
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Would you say a bass manged 708i could also work for LCR in a small room?
Not him but....
Definitely!
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post #2532 of 4604 Old 04-18-2017, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
For anyone interested, I have some new clarifying comments from JBL regarding some of the controversy that has been going on in this thread lately re: the LSR708 in regard to SPL, limiters, and other topics. I am not going to post the comments here, because rather than further the discussion it simply ends up turning into a boring squabble-fest. However, anyone is free to PM me for the info if interested. Let's just say that JBL actually does know what they are doing

As I mentioned yesterday, the engineers at JBL have better things to do than get dragged down in pedantic, un-constructive debates. I've had the good fortune of being able to cultivate good relationships with various engineers and higher ups at Harman, and this has allowed me to "go to the source" when questions of substance arise on the Forums. In honor of those relationships, the last thing I want to do is waste any of these hard working people's time. Unfortunately, this discussion has crossed that line for them.

Again, feel free to PM me for more.
rofl yeah, keeping it in private so you can't get fact checked.
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post #2533 of 4604 Old 04-18-2017, 03:56 PM
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Don't roll over onto a tack

I've had three people already request the info privately. They can comment here if they like as to whether or not they think the info is solid.

Of course, you can always request the same. My door is always open. From the feedback I've received, people are tired of the endless, unproductive back and forth. So I'm taking it offline.

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post #2534 of 4604 Old 04-18-2017, 03:58 PM
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What you post in private is your concern. You post obviously bad info here with no remorse.
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post #2535 of 4604 Old 04-18-2017, 04:05 PM
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I'll let others comment. Again, my door is always open. Feel free to ping me.

Happiness and peace be yours!

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post #2536 of 4604 Old 04-18-2017, 05:39 PM
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FWIW, I am in the camp of those skeptical of the performance claims for the 708i, and I doubt that just about any speaker using a single 8" driver will be able to do this job well.

It's not just a matter of *hitting* reference level. It's a matter of achieving *clean* output at reference level across most of the frequency range and in particular the 60-300 Hz range that tends to be quite hot in a lot of music and cinema soundtracks. (This is assuming use of bass management with a 80 Hz XO.)
It's also a matter of having extra headroom for EQ to address problems with the room and placements.

Furthermore, sine wave THD measurements only characterize distortion with sine waves. Complex signals may exhibit much worse intramodular distortion due to variance in inductance with stroke at significantly lower excursions than high THD appears at.

Finally, theatrical soundtracks are hardly the last word on dynamic range. For a variety of reasons, true theatrical soundtracks are actually quite limited in terms of dynamic range compared to what one can find with some high dynamic range music releases including music BD and even some home mixes of theatrical features. No, this is not a matter of getting one's ears checked. Real life sounds exhibit much higher SPL peaks than are typically retained in a soundtrack. More peak headroom in a soundtrack can and does improve sound quality if it's reproduced accurately.

A bigger question is why, after spending a lot of money on a "high end" system, one would choose speakers that can hit reference level "just barely". I guess the main issue is that if one opts to go the JBL direction, one must choose between their offerings. It would be interesting if JBL offered a somewhat smaller satellite version of the M2, perhaps using a more efficient 12" or 15" woofer that gives up sub bass performance in return for higher efficiency. This would potentially allow use of smaller, cheaper, and likely quieter amps too.
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post #2537 of 4604 Old 04-18-2017, 07:27 PM
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No good deed goes unpunished.

John, do you still have the M2's to demo?

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #2538 of 4604 Old 04-18-2017, 07:36 PM
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Just drop the knowledge here. That's what forums are for.

People can view both sides and judge for themselves.
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post #2539 of 4604 Old 04-18-2017, 11:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by awediophile View Post
It would be interesting if JBL offered a somewhat smaller satellite version of the M2, perhaps using a more efficient 12" or 15" woofer that gives up sub bass performance in return for higher efficiency. This would potentially allow use of smaller, cheaper, and likely quieter amps too.
Isn't JBL 4367 the mini M2?
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It's more like the shorter, heavier twin brother. It's got 6lbs on the M2 and is almost the same volume-wise.
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post #2541 of 4604 Old 04-19-2017, 09:01 AM
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What amps can you mate with the SUB18?
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post #2542 of 4604 Old 04-19-2017, 10:19 AM
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They really need something like a Crown MA-5000 bridged, each.
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post #2543 of 4604 Old 04-19-2017, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by awediophile View Post
FWIW, I am in the camp of those skeptical of the performance claims for the 708i, and I doubt that just about any speaker using a single 8" driver will be able to do this job well.

It's not just a matter of *hitting* reference level. It's a matter of achieving *clean* output at reference level across most of the frequency range and in particular the 60-300 Hz range that tends to be quite hot in a lot of music and cinema soundtracks. (This is assuming use of bass management with a 80 Hz XO.)
It's also a matter of having extra headroom for EQ to address problems with the room and placements.

Furthermore, sine wave THD measurements only characterize distortion with sine waves. Complex signals may exhibit much worse intramodular distortion due to variance in inductance with stroke at significantly lower excursions than high THD appears at.

Finally, theatrical soundtracks are hardly the last word on dynamic range. For a variety of reasons, true theatrical soundtracks are actually quite limited in terms of dynamic range compared to what one can find with some high dynamic range music releases including music BD and even some home mixes of theatrical features. No, this is not a matter of getting one's ears checked. Real life sounds exhibit much higher SPL peaks than are typically retained in a soundtrack. More peak headroom in a soundtrack can and does improve sound quality if it's reproduced accurately.

A bigger question is why, after spending a lot of money on a "high end" system, one would choose speakers that can hit reference level "just barely". I guess the main issue is that if one opts to go the JBL direction, one must choose between their offerings. It would be interesting if JBL offered a somewhat smaller satellite version of the M2, perhaps using a more efficient 12" or 15" woofer that gives up sub bass performance in return for higher efficiency. This would potentially allow use of smaller, cheaper, and likely quieter amps too.
I appreciate your skepticism and the civil way you express it If I had space, I would have M2s myself. I would love to see an LSR712 someday. BTW, I enjoyed meeting you in Denver - wish I had realized who you were when we talked.

The point I've been trying to make is that reference level is relative to room size and listening distance, and that theatrical reference level is way too loud in the typical home listening space. Listening that loud for extensive periods can also damage your hearing. Scott Wilkinson discusses this with Charles Sprinkle and Peter Chaikin in his M2 webcast:


Obviously Harman and Dolby both signed off on the PostWorks install in NYC that uses LSR708s as LCRs. They are using LSR708s in baffle walls using the 600 watt Crowns. Baz Luhrman is personally mixing in that space - mixing a show that features music with intense midrange / bass content, among many other things:

http://www.jblpro.com/www/news/news-...7.1-nyc-stages

The caveat is that they are mixing on home theater sized stages. However, they are mixing and mastering theatrical and television productions using the 708s. I've talked to these guys, and they are quite happy.

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post #2544 of 4604 Old 04-19-2017, 12:32 PM
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Just drop the knowledge here. That's what forums are for.

People can view both sides and judge for themselves.
I would, but it's literally gotten to the point that my contacts at Harman no longer want to participate when this stuff drags on and on and gets hostile / personal. There is time and effort involved on my part and on the part of my contacts at Harman, and when they see the conversation devolve into comments like these:

"you post obviously erroneous info"

"*sigh* Corrections inline, again. I've already pointed this out but you continue to post basic errors. You're not helping anyone by posting inaccurate information."

...I think you can understand why they no longer want to devote any additional time and effort. Ostensibly those comments above were directed at me, but as I made explicitly clear, I was cutting and pasting direct conversations with legit engineers at Harman. As one of them said in my recent exchanges:

The answers that I’m having to provide remind me of why I haven’t engaged in the forums. I enjoy providing information, but it really seems that they have an agenda to object.

As @jtwrace and @goskers can absolutely verify, the engineers at Harman are incredibly busy and absolutely devoted to getting the science right, and pushing the entire audio industry forward. I consider it an honor that I can get information directly from such people as Charles Sprinkle, Tim Gladwin, Kevin Voecks and others. But neither they nor I am interested in getting involved in petty squabbles, especially when they are essentially being called out as either liars or incompetents after taking the time and trouble to answer questions for those of us here.

FYI, this is how the process goes:

I submit questions to the appropriate contact.

I wait for a response, which can sometimes take a few days to a week or so because they are often in the lab or travelling around the world.

Once I get the response, I clarify any remaining points, and ASK FIRST if I can quote the individual directly. They then ask to review what I intend to post before I do so. I only post when I get the final sign-off (which is why you often see me say, "trying to clarify - please stand by.")

All of this takes time and effort on everyone's part.

So, I can either keep the lines of communication open, or I can keep getting involved in these little spats and end the conversation.

Hope you understand. BTW, I sent you an email with some recent conversations

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post #2545 of 4604 Old 04-19-2017, 12:37 PM
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No good deed goes unpunished.

John, do you still have the M2's to demo?
The B stock units we had at our HT Seminar were sold, BUT I have three new units coming sometime within the next month. As I mentioned a few posts back, these were units Harman gave us excellent deals on to help out with the show costs. At the price I am getting them at, I may try to figure out how to keep them, though my problem remains one of space

If they don't get sold off before they arrive here in Colorado Springs, I will have them for demo for a while at least!

Thanks for asking!

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post #2546 of 4604 Old 04-19-2017, 12:43 PM
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its very cool what John and his friends at Harmon provide. I wish more was said and done by all the manufacturers. I can just imagine all the skepticism that takes place on both sides of the Pro's vs Consumers...its like nobody believes anyone anymore. the internet makes everyone a sharpshooter at everything. and big business doesnt always mean its the gospel, people still rely on getting paid/having a job and not wanting to risk that job over something said on the internet.

I enjoy reading new info/ideas and now and then I also like to be stupid and post dumb stuff...why? because it makes me feel better for whatever reason...its human nature.

keep doing what you do John, you seem like a stand up guy that tries hard to be honest and forthcoming. no need to change a thing.

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post #2547 of 4604 Old 04-19-2017, 12:49 PM
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Thanks, Torii - it means a lot

John Schuermann
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post #2548 of 4604 Old 04-19-2017, 12:59 PM
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I will probably regret this, but I will share this one part of the recent exchange I had with Harman:

RE: changing the limiter when the driver is "limited to 250 watts":

it’s a voltage limiter, not a power limiter. SPL is proportional to voltage not power. (We) develop system models that predict the excursion of the transducers used, including the 8” woofer in the 708.

RE: surface area of the woofer / moving enough air to create a specific spl level:

When frequency is doubled, excursion is reduced by ¾ (SPL is proportional to transducer acceleration, which is the 2nd derivative of displacement.) So when the transducer is crossed over at 80 Hz, it can take a significantly higher voltage and still remain in its linear range, compared to the stock tuning. You want more sound output, you can also increase the system high-pass frequency. With the higher voltage tuning we are crossing the 708 over at 80Hz. When you compare the volume displacement of the 708 to the M2 with regards to SPL and cutoff frequency, it makes sense. The system model is developed to keep the transducer in its linear range at the specified voltage.

There's more, and again, anyone can contact me for more detailed info.

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post #2549 of 4604 Old 04-19-2017, 12:59 PM
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Looking at my quick/rough drawing of my room, do you guys think two SUB18 subwoofers would be enough (one maybe in the middle of the front wall and one the middle of the rear wall)? I'm pretty sure I'd be covered in terms of SPL/power but what about bass coverage?

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post #2550 of 4604 Old 04-19-2017, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
I would, but it's literally gotten to the point that my contacts at Harman no longer want to participate when this stuff drags on and on and gets hostile / personal. There is time and effort involved on my part and on the part of my contacts at Harman, and when they see the conversation devolve into comments like these:

"you post obviously erroneous info"

"*sigh* Corrections inline, again. I've already pointed this out but you continue to post basic errors. You're not helping anyone by posting inaccurate information."

...I think you can understand why they no longer want to devote any additional time and effort. Ostensibly those comments above were directed at me, but as I made explicitly clear, I was cutting and pasting direct conversations with legit engineers at Harman. As one of them said in my recent exchanges:

The answers that I’m having to provide remind me of why I haven’t engaged in the forums. I enjoy providing information, but it really seems that they have an agenda to object.

As @jtwrace and @goskers can absolutely verify, the engineers at Harman are incredibly busy and absolutely devoted to getting the science right, and pushing the entire audio industry forward. I consider it an honor that I can get information directly from such people as Charles Sprinkle, Tim Gladwin, Kevin Voecks and others. But neither they nor I am interested in getting involved in petty squabbles, especially when they are essentially being called out as either liars or incompetents after taking the time and trouble to answer questions for those of us here.

FYI, this is how the process goes:

I submit questions to the appropriate contact.

I wait for a response, which can sometimes take a few days to a week or so because they are often in the lab or travelling around the world.

Once I get the response, I clarify any remaining points, and ASK FIRST if I can quote the individual directly. They then ask to review what I intend to post before I do so. I only post when I get the final sign-off (which is why you often see me say, "trying to clarify - please stand by.")

All of this takes time and effort on everyone's part.

So, I can either keep the lines of communication open, or I can keep getting involved in these little spats and end the conversation.

Hope you understand. BTW, I sent you an email with some recent conversations

When you can get basic fundamentals correct, like how many dbspl will increase when you double power, you won't get fact checked. You can cry about it all you want, but facts are facts, and you are wrong. I'm not the one with the agenda trying to sell speakers. I have no skin in this game, just providing the perspective from the SCIENCE angle. Remember what the S in AVS is for.
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