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post #2731 of 4699 Old 05-13-2017, 09:47 PM
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I realize from the pics that you don't have enough space for a baffle wall, but for others considering the M2's, my understanding is the baffle wall has 2 main benefits:

1) Eliminates SBIR
2) Boosts output, so a lower powered amp can be used. i.e. 1200wpc needed free standing vs 600wpc in a baffle wall.

It's also a strong shelf if you need to elevate the speakers to make their acoustic center closer to the audience's ears.
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post #2732 of 4699 Old 05-14-2017, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Blackdevil77 View Post
Thanks, they've been awesome! My room just sucks, I have such bad SBIR that ARC sets the crossover frequency to 250 hz on the M2's. I sure hope all of this work I have been doing rewards me with some real M2 magic. I've been chocking on fiber glass all day




Here's all the insulation cut into shape and put into place in the room. I spent most of the day wrapping these in black fabric. I ran out of fabric and hot glue so I have to continue on Monday or Tuesday. I still have behind the screen to do.
Yikes . That looks like a lot of work. Looking forward to hearing if it helps.
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post #2733 of 4699 Old 05-14-2017, 08:24 PM
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Came across a rare M2 review.

http://www.hifi-musik.se/walk_ladda-..._sid_56-59.pdf

Google translate isn't always so great, but it appears they were pretty blown away.

I attached a version translated to english.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf HIFI_1503_JBL_sid_56-59.sv.en.pdf (935.2 KB, 71 views)
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post #2734 of 4699 Old 05-15-2017, 05:52 AM
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magpumpande dynamics, eh?
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post #2735 of 4699 Old 05-15-2017, 08:01 AM
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Blackdevil, don't take this as an insult, but I would triple and quadruple check your woofer wiring in particular. Notice what jtwrace did with his wiring. I was doing all kinds of experimenting to try to fix a big midbass suck out that I thought was a floor bounce or SBIR and it turns out it was one of my woofers I wired in reverse polarity. Swapping it fixed my problem. Not saying yours is the same issue, but it was easy enough to screw up.

There are a number of test tones on youtube for L&R panning, which first makes sure that isn't an issue, then move onto test tones. It looks like your wiring is at least black/red colored so that makes that easier in testing.
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post #2736 of 4699 Old 05-15-2017, 08:08 AM
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magpumpande dynamics, eh?
There are some other good ones in there too, lol
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post #2737 of 4699 Old 05-15-2017, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioJosh View Post
Blackdevil, don't take this as an insult, but I would triple and quadruple check your woofer wiring in particular. Notice what jtwrace did with his wiring. I was doing all kinds of experimenting to try to fix a big midbass suck out that I thought was a floor bounce or SBIR and it turns out it was one of my woofers I wired in reverse polarity. Swapping it fixed my problem. Not saying yours is the same issue, but it was easy enough to screw up.

There are a number of test tones on youtube for L&R panning, which first makes sure that isn't an issue, then move onto test tones. It looks like your wiring is at least black/red colored so that makes that easier in testing.
I did check that a few times, it's definitely wired right, unless one of the woofers are wired wrong in the cabinet. All that treatment did help with the left front speaker. The right front speaker still has that suck out, but I noticed when I put a big, thick acoustic panel on the screen right next to the speaker, it greatly reduces the dip. I'm guessing that would confirm it's SBIR.
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post #2738 of 4699 Old 05-15-2017, 08:25 AM
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Yikes . That looks like a lot of work. Looking forward to hearing if it helps.
It is a good amount of work. The most annoying part is wrapping the paneling in black fabric. Cutting them and hanging them is quick and easy. It helped with the left front speaker, not so much the right front. I didn't treat behind the screen yet, so I'm waiting for the results after I do that before I decide if this was a fail or not.
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post #2739 of 4699 Old 05-15-2017, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by goskers View Post
Haven't run ARC yet, does it recommend a frequency where it should provide changes to the response?

I.E., does it attempt to identify the Schroeder frequency of your room and recommend adjustment below this?

If you have significant response problems then you should look into multiple subs if at all possible.
ARC does not detect Schroeder, but it's pretty obvious where it lies when you look at the real-time feedback of ARC on your PC - it's the point where the previously straight line starts getting all bumpy

John Bagby from Anthem was at our showroom last week and suggested using 500 hz as the max frequency to ensure proper sub / satellite blending, taking into account room gain (John Bagby is head of Anthem tech support, and is the son of Paradigm / Anthem founder Scott Bagby).

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post #2740 of 4699 Old 05-15-2017, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Kain View Post
Thanks.

Few questions:

1. Even though the limiter does not kick-in with the 600 watt amp, do you notice any distortion or just more (clean) SPL?

2. Is there any minimum listening distance requirement for the M2?

3. Just so I have a clear understanding of this, with the SDA 4600 I will need one amp per pair for M2s and will have to use Audio Architect to setup/configure the amp for use with the M2. No SDEC will be required. With the iTech 5000HD, I will need one amp per M2 and will also need Audio Architect to configure the amp for use with the M2? No SDEC will be required for the Crown amp either. Will both amps offer equal wattage to the M2 (after setup/configuration of the amps) i.e. 600 watts to the tweeter and 600 watts to the woofer or will the iTech 5000HD provide more wattage than that to the M2?
1. I certainly don't hear any distortion, but that does not prove there isn't any. Been discussing this with some at Harman and of course, certain forms of distortion have to be at incredibly high levels before they are truly perceptible to most of our human brain / ear combos I have not had time to take any measurements, but to me everything sounds pretty amazing. I had someone fly in from LA the other day to listen and they were suitably impressed

2. I believe minimum distance is typically 3 times the span of the radiating drivers/horn mouths. At 12 ft or so I think you would be fine.

3. I believe you have most of that correct. The iTech can deliver roughly twice the power to the M2s, I believe. A better comparison would be the DCi4-1250n, which would feed 1250 watts top and bottom to the M2s (and one DCi4-1250n would power a pair of M2s).

I'm going to power the M2s headed my way with the SDA4600, 600 watts top and bottom.

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post #2741 of 4699 Old 05-15-2017, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackdevil77 View Post
I did check that a few times, it's definitely wired right, unless one of the woofers are wired wrong in the cabinet. All that treatment did help with the left front speaker. The right front speaker still has that suck out, but I noticed when I put a big, thick acoustic panel on the screen right next to the speaker, it greatly reduces the dip. I'm guessing that would confirm it's SBIR.
Have you done close (6") measurements of the woofers? That will tell you if both speakers are performing the same. That's always the first thing I do when I start room measurements. Measure the speakers!
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post #2742 of 4699 Old 05-15-2017, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
John Bagby from Anthem was at our showroom last week and suggested using 500 hz as the max frequency to ensure proper sub / satellite blending, taking into account room gain (John Bagby is head of Anthem tech support, and is the son of Paradigm / Anthem founder Scott Bagby).
I see a visit to your place in the future if I'd be invited. My audiophile tourism doesn't currently have anything on the itinerary. Goskers?
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post #2743 of 4699 Old 05-15-2017, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioJosh View Post
Blackdevil, don't take this as an insult, but I would triple and quadruple check your woofer wiring in particular. Notice what jtwrace did with his wiring. I was doing all kinds of experimenting to try to fix a big midbass suck out that I thought was a floor bounce or SBIR and it turns out it was one of my woofers I wired in reverse polarity. Swapping it fixed my problem. Not saying yours is the same issue, but it was easy enough to screw up.

There are a number of test tones on youtube for L&R panning, which first makes sure that isn't an issue, then move onto test tones. It looks like your wiring is at least black/red colored so that makes that easier in testing.
Wow, I got an atta-boy!
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post #2744 of 4699 Old 05-15-2017, 07:05 PM
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I see a visit to your place in the future if I'd be invited. My audiophile tourism doesn't currently have anything on the itinerary. Goskers?
Of course you are invited

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post #2745 of 4699 Old 05-16-2017, 03:22 AM
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Have you done close (6") measurements of the woofers? That will tell you if both speakers are performing the same. That's always the first thing I do when I start room measurements. Measure the speakers!
I have not, but I will be doing that today when I get home from work, good idea!
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post #2746 of 4699 Old 05-17-2017, 10:54 AM
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So, after maybe a month of thinking, whenever listening to music, "self, it sounds like the image is pulled to the left" I decided it couldn't be in my head. I haven't changed anything (purposefully), but something must have been causing it. So, after going through all my settings, I pulled the Art Cleanbox off the shelf and what-do-ya-know, the right channel level is a touch lower than the left. Ugh! All better, now, though -- except, I don't know if the right was bumped down or the left bumped up...and I don't know how it happened...but...otherwise, lol.
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So, after maybe a month of thinking, whenever listening to music, "self, it sounds like the image is pulled to the left" I decided it couldn't be in my head. I haven't changed anything (purposefully), but something must have been causing it. So, after going through all my settings, I pulled the Art Cleanbox off the shelf and what-do-ya-know, the right channel level is a touch lower than the left. Ugh! All better, now, though -- except, I don't know if the right was bumped down or the left bumped up...and I don't know how it happened...but...otherwise, lol.
Damn, that stuff can drive you crazy. At least you found the problem. Otherwise it may have driven you mad
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post #2748 of 4699 Old 05-17-2017, 05:26 PM
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For me, it's a short drive...

"Known good" components that are not good are rather vexing.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #2749 of 4699 Old 05-18-2017, 03:27 AM
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Finally finished treated the front wall and immediate side walls of my theater room. The entire front wall is treated with 2 inch thick panels of Owens Corning 703 behind the screen, 4 inch on the bottom of the screen, and 4 inch with a 2 inch air gap on the sides of the screen, directly behind the speakers. Hardest/most annoying part of this whole thing was wrapping everything in black fabric. Doing this did help my SBIR problem a good deal, but didn't completely eliminate it. I'd call it a success since it did work, and an added bonus is all of that black around the screen makes for a more immersive image.

Here are some pics of the completed room. While the room is complete, this pics were taken before I had a chance to clean up the room. Disregard the clutter and some of the rough edges on the black fabric. Finishing touches are still in progress.







After playing around with ARC and the quick measure feature, I ended up moving one of my subs to the side wall. When both were on the front wall, the frequency response dropped off sharply right before 80 hz and was left a noticeable gap right at the crossover frequency. Putting one of the subs against the side wall smoothed things out nicely, with a nearly flat FR up to nearly 140 hz.




Check out this video I took of measurements from my left front speaker and how drastically the FR changes as you move the mic about 12 inches to the right of the MLP. This room drives me crazy. What do you think could be causing this? I'm thinking it has something to do with that huge open cavity under the stairs where I have my equipment rack, which you can see in the background of the video.



@jtwrace I took measurements about 6 inches from the speakers, right between the 15" woofer and the compression driver (about level with the JBL emblem). The graph was ruler flat. No dips or peaks at all. As I moved the mic back, the worse and worse the dips and peaks got.
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post #2750 of 4699 Old 05-18-2017, 04:28 AM
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Blackdevil, don't take this as an insult, but I would triple and quadruple check your woofer wiring in particular.
Great input! I bought a polarity tester just for this. Assumption is good but control is better

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post #2751 of 4699 Old 05-18-2017, 08:37 AM
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I don't recall if you had an all black front stage to begin with, but that looks better overall, so at least the work was worth something. Room acoustics are frustratingly hard to deal with sometimes.

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I don't recall if you had an all black front stage to begin with, but that looks better overall, so at least the work was worth something. Room acoustics are frustratingly hard to deal with sometimes.
I've found the single best treatment for room acoustics issues is the proper placement of headphones over ones ears....

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post #2753 of 4699 Old 05-18-2017, 08:50 AM
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I don't recall if you had an all black front stage to begin with, but that looks better overall, so at least the work was worth something. Room acoustics are frustratingly hard to deal with sometimes.
The front wall was black and that little bit on the ceiling. This added to it, so it does improve things. I noticed how much more immersive the video is so at least it was beneficial in some way. Although it did help with the SBIR as well. They definitely are, this room has proven that to me.
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post #2754 of 4699 Old 05-18-2017, 09:10 AM
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Finally finished treated the front wall and immediate side walls of my theater room. The entire front wall is treated with 2 inch thick panels of Owens Corning 703 behind the screen, 4 inch on the bottom of the screen, and 4 inch with a 2 inch air gap on the sides of the screen, directly behind the speakers. Hardest/most annoying part of this whole thing was wrapping everything in black fabric. Doing this did help my SBIR problem a good deal, but didn't completely eliminate it. I'd call it a success since it did work, and an added bonus is all of that black around the screen makes for a more immersive image.

Here are some pics of the completed room. While the room is complete, this pics were taken before I had a chance to clean up the room. Disregard the clutter and some of the rough edges on the black fabric. Finishing touches are still in progress.

After playing around with ARC and the quick measure feature, I ended up moving one of my subs to the side wall. When both were on the front wall, the frequency response dropped off sharply right before 80 hz and was left a noticeable gap right at the crossover frequency. Putting one of the subs against the side wall smoothed things out nicely, with a nearly flat FR up to nearly 140 hz.


Check out this video I took of measurements from my left front speaker and how drastically the FR changes as you move the mic about 12 inches to the right of the MLP. This room drives me crazy. What do you think could be causing this? I'm thinking it has something to do with that huge open cavity under the stairs where I have my equipment rack, which you can see in the background of the video.


@jtwrace I took measurements about 6 inches from the speakers, right between the 15" woofer and the compression driver (about level with the JBL emblem). The graph was ruler flat. No dips or peaks at all. As I moved the mic back, the worse and worse the dips and peaks got.
How has the SQ changed subjectively? My guess is they're sounding darn good in there after those treatments.
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post #2755 of 4699 Old 05-18-2017, 09:20 AM
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How has the SQ changed subjectively? My guess is they're sounding darn good in there after those treatments.
Oh yes, they're sounding at least as good as I've ever heard them. I'm confident it's the best it will get in my room without some serious remodeling. I almost wanted to take off of work just to listen all day lol.
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Oh yes, they're sounding at least as good as I've ever heard them. I'm confident it's the best it will get in my room without some serious remodeling. I almost wanted to take off of work just to listen all day lol.
Glad to hear the journey was worth it. It still makes me laugh when I think about our blind A/B and you listened to both speakers blind once each, on one song clip, and you said, "no sense in continuing this, I know which one is which", lol.
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post #2757 of 4699 Old 05-18-2017, 09:51 AM
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Glad to hear the journey was worth it. It still makes me laugh when I think about our blind A/B and you listened to both speakers blind once each, on one song clip, and you said, "no sense in continuing this, I know which one is which", lol.
Oh yes, I remember that clearly. The difference was obvious. To me at least. I was very familiar with the sound signature of the Cats, so I know which one it was right away. Even being used to the Cats, I still preferred the more natural, detail and extended top end of the M2s. Not to mention the consistently huge sound stage.
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post #2758 of 4699 Old 05-18-2017, 12:21 PM
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Have you tried moving the speakers out into the room about 2 ft from any boundaries, and measuring again? I know you can't keep them there, but it might be interesting to see how they measure.

Quick Measure is a fantastic feature inside ARC. I found the flattest response for my 708s came when I moved the speakers about 2 ft away from the rear wall and side wall. Not ruler flat, for sure, but pretty decent.

My M2s shipped from Kentucky today - should have them next week
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post #2759 of 4699 Old 05-18-2017, 12:28 PM
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Have you tried moving the speakers out into the room about 2 ft from any boundaries, and measuring again? I know you can't keep them there, but it might be interesting to see how they measure.

Quick Measure is a fantastic feature inside ARC. I found the flattest response for my 708s came when I moved the speakers about 2 ft away from the rear wall and side wall. Not ruler flat, for sure, but pretty decent.

My M2s shipped from Kentucky today - should have them next week
I have, and it does get much better in the areas above the crossover frequency. Only problem is, they'd be blocking the screen, the door and would be nearly in your face at the MLP. The better alternative (I found) was to move them as close to the treated back wall as possible. The closer to the back wall, the more effective the treatments are. In their current positions, things are pretty good, minus the front right seat being right next to that open cavity under the stairs where I get that massive 105 hz suck out.
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post #2760 of 4699 Old 05-18-2017, 12:37 PM
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Understood - just curious from an "experimental" point of view.

BTW, in regard to your projector - blacking out the room not only makes the picture more immersive, it also drastically improves picture contrast. It looks like you have a white screen, correct? Typical white screens reflect light in almost a 180 arc, with all that reflected light bouncing off the side walls and ceiling and coming back to wash out the picture. You have mitigated this pretty drastically - all to the good.

This goes for anyone with a projection system, especially those with white screens: next time you watch a movie in the dark, take a look around the room to see what else is visible besides the picture itself. If you walls and ceiling are lighting up ("glowing"), they have become light sources - just like having a light on in the room. All that reflected light is coming back to wash out the picture and reduce contrast. It's the visual equivalent of SBIR

So all that work you did wrapping things in black velvet will pay back multiple dividends!
Blackdevil77 likes this.

John Schuermann
The Screening Room Home Theater Sales and Design
JS Music and Sound Film Scoring and Sound Design
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