JBL 'M2' Master Reference Monitor - Page 93 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2761 of 4620 Old 05-18-2017, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
Understood - just curious from an "experimental" point of view.

BTW, in regard to your projector - blacking out the room not only makes the picture more immersive, it also drastically improves picture contrast. It looks like you have a white screen, correct? Typical white screens reflect light in almost a 180 arc, with all that reflected light bouncing off the side walls and ceiling and coming back to wash out the picture. You have mitigated this pretty drastically - all to the good.

This goes for anyone with a projection system, especially those with white screens: next time you watch a movie in the dark, take a look around the room to see what else is visible besides the picture itself. If you walls and ceiling are lighting up ("glowing"), they have become light sources - just like having a light on in the room. All that reflected light is coming back to wash out the picture and reduce contrast. It's the visual equivalent of SBIR

So all that work you did wrapping things in black velvet will pay back multiple dividends!
Yes, good analogy! lol. Yes, my screen is white and I did notice, especially on the brighter screens that the picture would get washed out by the reflected light. The most obvious way to see this is when opening netflix on the Oppo. That bright red netflix color lights up everything red, and the black bars on the top and bottom of the screen actually become a very noticeable dark shade of red. It is much improved with the new black surrounds, but it is far from eliminated.
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post #2762 of 4620 Old 05-18-2017, 02:20 PM
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About room treatment: I don't believe in using 1" or 2" panels in the vast majority of cases. They just don't absorb enough low frequency sound, especially if placed directly on the wall/ceiling surface. Even 4" thick panels don't do much for low frequencies unless you provide some air gap.

The 2" panels *will* suck all the mids and highs out of the room if they aren't faced with something reflective to those frequencies, and in a small room that energy is very hard to preserve. I agree that the black fabric looks good up front, but I would suggest only treating the areas which are responsible for significant interfering reflections and/or SBIR effects. For a front wall, that would probably involve one 2'x4' panel placed to the inside of each left and right speaker. With the speakers placed back in the corners, I'd try to fill the corners as much absorbent material as you can fit. When making absorbers thicker, it's best to use lower density material than you would for thinner panels. Corner bass traps made out of triangles of pink-fluffy insulation, 12" deep or more, are known to work well and help reduce overall bass decay in addition to SBIR.
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post #2763 of 4620 Old 05-18-2017, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Blackdevil77 View Post
I have, and it does get much better in the areas above the crossover frequency. Only problem is, they'd be blocking the screen, the door and would be nearly in your face at the MLP. The better alternative (I found) was to move them as close to the treated back wall as possible. The closer to the back wall, the more effective the treatments are. In their current positions, things are pretty good, minus the front right seat being right next to that open cavity under the stairs where I get that massive 105 hz suck out.
The closer you move the speaker to the wall the higher the frequency the dip will occur. When you get to the point the that the absorption can fully absorb that frequency it will disappear. If you can’t move it close enough to the wall you could us a denser absorption. OC 703 is only 3 PCF and with 4” of OC 703 at 125hz only has a coefficient of 0.5 and you need greater than 1.0 at 105hz to fix that dip. Other absorption panels use 9 PCF and are better at lower frequencies at the same thickness. Of course, they are not as inexpensive as 703, in fact multiple times more expensive.
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post #2764 of 4620 Old 05-18-2017, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by awediophile View Post
About room treatment: I don't believe in using 1" or 2" panels in the vast majority of cases. They just don't absorb enough low frequency sound, especially if placed directly on the wall/ceiling surface. Even 4" thick panels don't do much for low frequencies unless you provide some air gap.

The 2" panels *will* suck all the mids and highs out of the room if they aren't faced with something reflective to those frequencies, and in a small room that energy is very hard to preserve. I agree that the black fabric looks good up front, but I would suggest only treating the areas which are responsible for significant interfering reflections and/or SBIR effects. For a front wall, that would probably involve one 2'x4' panel placed to the inside of each left and right speaker. With the speakers placed back in the corners, I'd try to fill the corners as much absorbent material as you can fit. When making absorbers thicker, it's best to use lower density material than you would for thinner panels. Corner bass traps made out of triangles of pink-fluffy insulation, 12" deep or more, are known to work well and help reduce overall bass decay in addition to SBIR.
I have corner bass traps as well. The only spot where I used 2 inch panels are behind the screen, where I couldn't fit anything thicker due to the distance of the projector from the screen. I'm sure the screen being in front of that 2 inch material would aid in reflecting the mid and high frequencies. Behind the speakers, I have 4 inch thick 703 with a 2 inch air gap behind them, so 6 inches from the back wall. It did help with the SBIR noticeably. For this room right now, I don't think I can do much better without spending a lot more money or doing some major reconstructing. It's just not worth it to me in this annoyingly tiny room with obnoxiously low ceilings. I have big dreams though for the next house and next theater room lol.

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The closer you move the speaker to the wall the higher the frequency the dip will occur. When you get to the point the that the absorption can fully absorb that frequency it will disappear. If you can’t move it close enough to the wall you could us a denser absorption. OC 703 is only 3 PCF and with 4” of OC 703 at 125hz only has a coefficient of 0.5 and you need greater than 1.0 at 105hz to fix that dip. Other absorption panels use 9 PCF and are better at lower frequencies at the same thickness. Of course, they are not as inexpensive as 703, in fact multiple times more expensive.
Exactly, I have the speakers as close to the back wall as possible to maximize the effectiveness of the treatments I used.
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post #2765 of 4620 Old 05-18-2017, 08:52 PM
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I have corner bass traps as well. The only spot where I used 2 inch panels are behind the screen, where I couldn't fit anything thicker due to the distance of the projector from the screen. I'm sure the screen being in front of that 2 inch material would aid in reflecting the mid and high frequencies. Behind the speakers, I have 4 inch thick 703 with a 2 inch air gap behind them, so 6 inches from the back wall. It did help with the SBIR noticeably. For this room right now, I don't think I can do much better without spending a lot more money or doing some major reconstructing. It's just not worth it to me in this annoyingly tiny room with obnoxiously low ceilings. I have big dreams though for the next house and next theater room lol.



Exactly, I have the speakers as close to the back wall as possible to maximize the effectiveness of the treatments I used.
I'm guessing it's not possible for you to build a baffle wall? You would only need the depth of the M2 from your current screen position.
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post #2766 of 4620 Old 05-18-2017, 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Blackdevil77 View Post
It did help with the SBIR noticeably. For this room right now, I don't think I can do much better without spending a lot more money or doing some major reconstructing. It's just not worth it to me in this annoyingly tiny room with obnoxiously low ceilings. I have big dreams though for the next house and next theater room lol.
How low? Is there any treatment on the ceiling? That could be a major contributor to your dip as well.
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post #2767 of 4620 Old 05-19-2017, 04:27 AM
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Gooddoc

What are you getting next for subs? Going all JBL maybe
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post #2768 of 4620 Old 05-19-2017, 04:52 AM
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Gooddoc

What are you getting next for subs? Going all JBL maybe
Not sure yet. I want small subs. compact 15" sealed so I can throw them in my 4 corners. JBL doesn't make those. The problem with the JTR's is that I can't fit another two in my room, otherwise I would add another two of those. They are awesome subs, just too big for my current room.

Corner loading 4 15" subs doesn't get me near the same output as the JTRs away from the corners like I have them now, but it will be good enough for me from an output perspective.

I'm more concerned about bass accuracy and consistency across my seating then I am about output. Smaller subs will increase the positioning possibilities of my M2's, which is another reason I'm doing it.
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Seaton submersives would be a great fit I think.
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post #2770 of 4620 Old 05-19-2017, 05:10 AM
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It sounds like you're heading towards Rythmiks to me.

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post #2771 of 4620 Old 05-19-2017, 05:18 AM
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Seaton submersives would be a great fit I think.
Seatons are single 15's? I thought they were 18's. I will look into that further.

Edit: Dual 15's. Bigger than I want. Single 15's is my plan.

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It sounds like you're heading towards Rythmiks to me.
Looking at PSA too.
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post #2772 of 4620 Old 05-19-2017, 05:20 AM
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I'm guessing it's not possible for you to build a baffle wall? You would only need the depth of the M2 from your current screen position.
I actually can, I have the room behind that wall where the screen is. There's a small passageway behind the screen used for storage. Only problem is, there is some plumbing on the right side of the screen that would be problematic for the right front speaker.

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How low? Is there any treatment on the ceiling? That could be a major contributor to your dip as well.
So low, that some taller people actually brush their heads on the ceiling already. The highest part of the ceiling is already under 7 feet. If I treat the ceiling at all, the absolute most thickness I could do is 2 inches, which I'm hearing won't be very effective. I don't want to absorb any more mids and highs than I already am either.

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Not sure yet. I want small subs. compact 15" sealed so I can throw them in my 4 corners. JBL doesn't make those. The problem with the JTR's is that I can't fit another two in my room, otherwise I would add another two of those. They are awesome subs, just too big for my current room.

Corner loading 4 15" subs doesn't get me near the same output as the JTRs away from the corners like I have them now, but it will be good enough for me from an output perspective.

I'm more concerned about bass accuracy and consistency across my seating then I am about output. Smaller subs will increase the positioning possibilities of my M2's, which is another reason I'm doing it.
I'm gonna have to suggest the Seaton F18 subs then. From owning Submersives, I have never heard a sub I like better. The JBL S2S-EX came damn close, probably one of the best I've heard, but the Submersives have a bit more extension. The F18's have everything I like about the Submersives (and S2S-EX's) from what other owners have told me, but with even more extension. The simplicity from their modular design and their relatively compact size makes them fantastic, I think. @DreamWarrior has them I believe with submersives as well.
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post #2773 of 4620 Old 05-19-2017, 05:24 AM
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I actually can, I have the room behind that wall where the screen is. There's a small passageway behind the screen used for storage. Only problem is, there is some plumbing on the right side of the screen that would be problematic for the right front speaker.
That would be a massive SQ upgrade compared to anything else you could do in your room, imo.



Quote:
I'm gonna have to suggest the Seaton F18 subs then. From owning Submersives, I have never heard a sub I like better. The JBL S2S-EX came damn close, probably one of the best I've heard, but the Submersives have a bit more extension. The F18's have everything I like about the Submersives (and S2S-EX's) from what other owners have told me, but with even more extension. The simplicity from their modular design and their relatively compact size makes them fantastic, I think. @DreamWarrior has them I believe with submersives as well.
The F2+ is a potential candidate, but might be bigger than I want.
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post #2774 of 4620 Old 05-19-2017, 05:31 AM
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That would be a massive SQ upgrade compared to anything else you could do in your room, imo.




The F2+ is a potential candidate, but might be bigger than I want.
Yeah it probably would, not to mention save me precious space that I desperately need in that room. I'm gonna look into it, if there's a way I can get it done, I'll try to do it.

The F2's are great as well. They're bigger than the F18's, no? Or you just want a 15 inch sub rather than an 18?
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post #2775 of 4620 Old 05-19-2017, 05:42 AM
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F18 seems like an Ultimax 18 with a speakerpower amp, to me. Why not just build 4 ultimax and buy the speaker power amps?
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post #2776 of 4620 Old 05-19-2017, 05:55 AM
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F18 seems like an Ultimax 18 with a speakerpower amp, to me. Why not just build 4 ultimax and buy the speaker power amps?
Yeah, but I trust Mark Seaton far more than myself to get the most out of the design. I don't have time to build either, my time is better spent making money .

The F18's aren't too bad size wise, really wanted a bit smaller, but they are a consideration. Just not even sure I need more than 4 15's if they're corner loaded.
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post #2777 of 4620 Old 05-19-2017, 06:01 AM
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F18 seems like an Ultimax 18 with a speakerpower amp, to me. Why not just build 4 ultimax and buy the speaker power amps?
Just simplicity I guess. All you need is 1 powered F18 and that one can power 3 slave units (no amps). Only one of the subs have to be plugged in.

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Yeah, but I trust Mark Seaton far more than myself to get the most out of the design. I don't have time to build either, my time is better spent making money .

The F18's aren't too bad size wise, really wanted a bit smaller, but they are a consideration. Just not even sure I need more than 4 15's if they're corner loaded.
Seemed simple to me, basically plug, place and play. You have REW and know how to use it so you have a leg up already. Shouldn't be difficult at all. Especially since you only need 1 powered F18 and can use 3 slave units. Only one has to be plugged in. Makes placement and wiring even easier.

And yes, I'd rather be making money also. But here I am, spending it
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post #2778 of 4620 Old 05-19-2017, 06:08 AM
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Just simplicity I guess. All you need is 1 powered F18 and that one can power 3 slave units (no amps). Only one of the subs have to be plugged in.



Seemed simple to me, basically plug, place and play. You have REW and know how to use it so you have a leg up already. Shouldn't be difficult at all. Especially since you only need 1 powered F18 and can use 3 slave units. Only one has to be plugged in. Makes placement and wiring even easier.

And yes, I'd rather be making money also. But here I am, spending it
The only issue with running all on the same amp is the inability to level match, although not sure that is an issue if the 4 subs are in each corner??
@Mark Seaton , what are your thoughts on potential issues trying to calibrate 3 slaves and a master at the listening positions, each in their own corner? Thanks.
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I'll grab the popcorn, waiting for the reply
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I'll grab the popcorn, waiting for the reply
Lol. I've never really fell into either the level matching or gain matching camp. I think the specific factors of the room/system need to be taken into consideration.

Having said that, I think Mark is a gain matching advocate. If so, a single amp is clearly not a problem . But that still leaves time domain. No ability to calibrate them in the time domain...which could be a concern I think...maybe...lol.
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You can't buy one powered, three slaves because you can't time align the slaves, to the best of my knowledge. They all need to have individual time alignment, unless they're equally spaced from your listening position, which will be unlikely.
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post #2782 of 4620 Old 05-19-2017, 07:22 AM
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If I have three M2s for LCR, will there be any issue with having only the center M2 behind an AT (woven) screen and the left/right M2s beside the screen out in the open? Will this cause any issues with the overall sound quality?
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post #2783 of 4620 Old 05-19-2017, 07:33 AM
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The only issue with running all on the same amp is the inability to level match, although not sure that is an issue if the 4 subs are in each corner??
@Mark Seaton , what are your thoughts on potential issues trying to calibrate 3 slaves and a master at the listening positions, each in their own corner? Thanks.
You would want 2 powered units for 4 corner positions. As much as I and most other calibrators have tried, I have yet to see a tangible benefit to sending a different signal to subwoofers that are both at the front wall or in front corners. Same for a pair at the rear of the room, or pairs at similar front-back depth on the side walls. Some day I could see separate signals useful if using a tool like Dirac Unison in rooms that aren't structurally symmetrical left-right, such as where one wall has a concrete foundation behind it, and the other is drywall studs to a utility closet or other room, but typically the different interaction vs placement with the boundaries is desired to create a complimentary blend. The whole conceptual benefit of placing a pair of subs in front corners or 1/4 points is based on sending them identical signals. It falls apart if you feed them differently!

I strongly recommend separate signals for the front and rear grouping of subs, with a pair front and rear being a great solution for most rooms. In most cases all that is needed is an appropriate delay applied to the rear group of subs. On rare occasion you might back down the level of the rear subs if they are super close to your seats. In the majority of cases this creates a great platform to deliver great bass to the listening area empirically through measurements and iterative adjustments. The hardest part is taking care to label measurements so you can look back at what you measured. The current versions of our amplifiers even have a delay knob to facilitate this exact configuration if the surround processor is happier or not capable of applying the delay. In small room acoustics, subwoofers operate on total power put into the room. It's near impossible to level match subs with widely varying frequency responses, as you can only average or pick a frequency. With identical subwoofers it is much better to "gain match," where each sub is contributing equally, and thereby one won't run out of gas with the others not contributing equally. A handful of measurements moving your current subs into position could give high confidence or show limitations in such a solution. So long as you are not sitting at the midpoint front-back in the room, and both locations don't produce coincident troughs in the response, you should be good with the 4 corner approach.

You could alternately pay Keith Yates Design for their BassCAMP optimization, but the accuracy is based on the accuracy of the model of the room. It is highly accurate in rooms of their design with well known acoustic properties, with uncertainty increasing as the acoustic properties of the boundaries become less well known or more variable.

The SubMersive HP and F2 packages are still current for a reason, and they will continue on well into the future. The F2 package (dimension drawings here) is the smallest footprint with the trade off of a 35.5" height. The chamfered rear corners also allow it to be tucked tight in a corner if space allows.

I haven't made formal announcements yet, but I did just finish up two new 18" packages which pack the same performance of the F18 into either a much shallower 12" deep package, or smaller front profile of 20" square. I posted some info on these in Art Sonneborn's thread where the first of the DS18-20 was installed. The first of the shallow DS18-12 were just delivered to AVS member Lasalle's home for his "LOGE" project.

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post #2785 of 4620 Old 05-19-2017, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jsin_N View Post
F18 seems like an Ultimax 18 with a speakerpower amp, to me. Why not just build 4 ultimax and buy the speaker power amps?
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Yeah, but I trust Mark Seaton far more than myself to get the most out of the design. I don't have time to build either, my time is better spent making money .

The F18's aren't too bad size wise, really wanted a bit smaller, but they are a consideration. Just not even sure I need more than 4 15's if they're corner loaded.
I have rejected dozens of Ultimax drivers over time that don't make our cut. An Ultimax 18 dropped in a typical DIY box won't have the articulation out of the box that a SubMersive has. DIYers will have to use less power, and be cautious of amp or driver overload noises. No one will tell you to use a 2 Ohm rated amp to drive 4 Ultimax 18" drivers, and unless you've measured the result down to how much and what type of stuffing is in exactly what size box, I wouldn't recommend it either. All that translates to probably 2-3dB measured lower peak output to be safe and 6-12dB lower max playback levels per woofer, without a 5 year warranty. I'd also argue our enclosures are better constructed and look nicer than 95% of DIY boxes if aesthetics have any value in your personal equation.

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post #2786 of 4620 Old 05-19-2017, 08:10 AM
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I actually can, I have the room behind that wall where the screen is. There's a small passageway behind the screen used for storage. Only problem is, there is some plumbing on the right side of the screen that would be problematic for the right front speaker.
How much plumbing? Plumbing is easy enough to re-route and that might not cost you a lot. I learned to plumb myself, so I have saved costly dollars in the past with upgrades and repairs.

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post #2787 of 4620 Old 05-19-2017, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Blackdevil77 View Post
*snip*
@DreamWarrior has [F18s] I believe with submersives as well.
Indeed, and if Gooddoc is able to stop by this weekend he'll get to hear them, too.

I'm pretty impressed so far, and I still haven't had a chance to tweak everything to the hilt. Hopefully this weekend I'll finally have a chance with the wife and kiddo out of the house. I'm also having someone calibrate my new TV, and they'll be able to assist with the audio a bit, too. I have OmniMic, I just needed time alone to break it out.

Right now, without tweaks beyond positioning, it's pretty intense in there. Once I get everything all time-aligned I'm sure it'll be even better. However, I'm starting to worry if my drywall can handle it, and the first time something falls and breaks I'm going to be a goner, lol! When I demo "Bass, I Love You" that low 7hz-ish note rolls through the floor and there is a vase on the one F18 stack that starts wobbling like it has been kicked. It's hilarious, but if I break it, I'm a dead man, so...I think I need to start securing stuff, haha.
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post #2788 of 4620 Old 05-19-2017, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by 12B4A View Post
It sounds like you're heading towards Rythmiks to me.
Rofl, M2's with gimp subs, no way.

Servo drive is to cover up inadequately designed woofers with an over complex mechanism. Maybe if they used pid control or a smarter algo than just basic feedback it might be better, but still pointless. The extra money you spend on electronics to drive it is better spent on proper equipment.
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post #2789 of 4620 Old 05-19-2017, 09:55 AM
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I don't know if I agree with some of those counters, but to each their own. Plug and play is easier if you don't want to mess with it. Do your thing.
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post #2790 of 4620 Old 05-19-2017, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
blahblah
Mark, you need a coherent website to list your products, navigating a forum for product info ....

I also did a bunch of testing with different signals for the front subs... if you have an uneven room and can do phase linear filtering, then separate EQ for both can have benefits, though it may sound terrible outside of your listening area depending... With basic PEQ and phase changes you can cause more issues trying to EQ separate.
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