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post #2821 of 4693 Old 05-20-2017, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by awediophile View Post
Overall though, I'd recommend subs from JTR, Seaton Sound, or Funk over what JBL has to offer. That's not to say that JBL subs are bad at all. And indeed, I'd have no trouble recommending Hsu Research, Power Sound Audio, SVS, or Rhythmic to most people. But seeing as this is a thread dedicated to what may be the "best speaker in the world" whose up-front cost is quite a bit higher than any of these budget brand subs, it only makes sense to recommend products from the top-tier, of which JTR, Seaton, and Funk are probably strongest, in my mind.
But speakers and subs are not the same. Speakers can have very different SQ below their SPL limits, whereas as well designed subs generally sound the same.

So long as clean adequate output is acheived at the SPL desired the choice of sub brand is generally irrelevant.

Build quality and general reliabilty of drivers and amps are a concern with subs though, so brand can matter there for sure.

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post #2822 of 4693 Old 05-20-2017, 08:23 PM
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No I can't. Both of those responses were measured with the internal amps and whatever internal processing they were configured with. The two systems may use different amounts of bass boost. What they do reveal is that the 21" is putting out 4 dB more @ 20 Hz and 8 dB more @ 10 Hz than the 18" is during the distortion sweeps that are normalized for the same level at 50 Hz. In your picture above, the difference at 50 Hz is < 3 dB. The differences at 20 Hz and 10 Hz are 7 dB and 11 dB, respectively. That's a *huge* difference.

Only the "FW18.0 (passive)" measurements, which were done with Josh's amp, show actual voltage sensitivity of the sealed sub + cabinet, without DSP. Then you have to adjust the voltage sensitivity data using impedance to get the actual power efficiency.



I think Funk would sell them to you if you emailed him about it. You might have to wait a bit though. I won't argue that the price is on the high side.

I have four UH-21v1-D3. They work well for me because I had about 24" height to work with and not enough mounting depth to accommodate something like the Rockford Fosgate T3S-19. Subs using 18" drivers would be less capable in the same footprint. Less efficient 21" drivers would require even more than a single SpeakerPower SP2-12k to power to full excursion, and considering how much those amps cost, the price of the UH-21v1 didn't look so intimidating anymore. Indeed, no other driver on the market could give me as much low frequency output from within the space I have available than these could.

Overall though, I'd recommend subs from JTR, Seaton Sound, or Funk over what JBL has to offer. That's not to say that JBL subs are bad at all. And indeed, I'd have no trouble recommending Hsu Research, Power Sound Audio, SVS, or Rhythmic to most people. But seeing as this is a thread dedicated to what may be the "best speaker in the world" whose up-front cost is quite a bit higher than any of these budget brand subs, it only makes sense to recommend products from the top-tier, of which JTR, Seaton, and Funk are probably strongest, in my mind.
Yeah, they're for sale from harbottle, but it didn't look like they were in any of the premade subs, but the website hasn't been updated. The RF 19 is interesting, but I probably wouldn't use that one. If I was going to redo my subs, that 21 might be on my short list... The low mms and strong motor is nice. The SHS24 from SI is also nice, but almost double the moving mass...

Can't tell on the 21, but it doesn't look like there's any signal shaping below 100hz on the 18... With the similar motors, the 21 will be more efficient due to the extra displacement without any massive changes in mms or bl to make it otherwise.



When comparing the 18 to the 21, the 18 is up 1db at 50hz and down 2.5 at 20hz... so 1.5db difference at 20hz when level matched at 50..




Anyway, didn't see the UH21 previously, and was unaware he was selling it in his funk subs, so I take that back, that 21 looks great, though I'd run it in a vented enclosure to get the most out of it.

At a lesser price, the 21ds115-4 looks nice. Ricci tested the driver, can't wait to see his tests in an enclosure. I'd still take the funk over it, though. The extra suspension travel makes it stronger in the low end.

As for the SP2-12000 not being able to drive a 21 to full excursion, that's nuts. It'll easily drive two of just about any 21 I can think of to xmax off a single channel. That amp is no joke and will put out more than its rated power.
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post #2823 of 4693 Old 05-20-2017, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
But speakers and subs are not the same. Speakers can have very different SQ below their SPL limits, whereas as well designed subs generally sound the same.

So long as clean adequate output is acheived at the SPL desired the choice of sub brand is generally irrelevant.

Build quality and general reliabilty of drivers and amps are a concern with subs though, so brand can matter there for sure.
I think you are maybe 90% correct here, but I believe qualitative differences between subs do exist that manifest at lower playback levels. What's harder to pin down is which factors are most important. THD measurements only show non-linearity involving sine wave signals in isolation. What happens to distortion with a complex signal or with transients? The answers may explain a lot about subjective quality differences in subs.
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post #2824 of 4693 Old 05-21-2017, 06:57 AM
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I'd go with the 2x4hd over the 2x4.... also, xlr cables are cheap, monoprice has solid ones

Dirac is nice though, if you wanna go that path.
So the 2x4 balanced? The forum on mini-dsp isn't much help at all, nobody gets any answers.

What happens with ARC, if I want to use ARC for the mains, but the mini-dsp for the subs? I don't think I can turn off ARC for the subs but on for the mains, it's either all on or all off? Would I have to disable ARC to be able to use the mini-dsp processing for the subs?
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post #2825 of 4693 Old 05-21-2017, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by awediophile View Post
I think you are maybe 90% correct here, but I believe qualitative differences between subs do exist that manifest at lower playback levels. What's harder to pin down is which factors are most important. THD measurements only show non-linearity involving sine wave signals in isolation. What happens to distortion with a complex signal or with transients? The answers may explain a lot about subjective quality differences in subs.
I believe Brian at Rythmik has been making progress at addressing these measurement/perception correlation issues with subs. To me, his approach and work goes a quite a bit deeper than writing it off as compensating for an improper driver by implementing a servo.

Thermal memory
DSP vs. Rythmik Servo vs. Temperature
Getting in to the thermal weeds of DCR and damping

Life is Lambertian
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post #2826 of 4693 Old 05-21-2017, 09:07 AM
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I'm aware, but compare the 18 to the 21... look at the 120db sweep.

RED



GREEN



Then if you want to compare output capabilities to lesser priced subs... the JTR 4000ULF ($3300) vs the Funk 21.0 ($6050) it's laughable...

You cannot simply look at two subs distortion sweeps and pick the one with the same "level" and compare them to see what one is better. The 21.0 has less distortion overall than the 18.0, along with more output, all in the same size enclosure, even though directly comparing say the 120db sweeps it looks worse. To compare two different subwoofers you must factor in response shape, and just as importantly compression on the higher sweeps, as all else equal the one with the lower compression will look "worse" for distortion when it may in fact be better. Now its not as complicated as factoring in everything yourself and working it all out, you can "start from the end" basically and do the following;
Choose a frequency you want to compare, lets say 20hz, then look at the "long term output compression sweeps" and find the point where they match and make note of what "sweep level" that is for each unit, it wont always be perfect match but close enough to get a good idea, and one can extrapolate between some lines if needed. So for the 21.0 to 18.0 the 21.0 is putting out a tad more at 20hz on its 115 db sweep as the 18.0 is putting out on its 120db sweep, so you then go and look at the distortion curves to see what each was doing at that output, ~103db in this case, the 21.0 was at about 11%, the 18 at 12%. Even at the theoretically "matched" frequency of 50hz you cannot compare the sweeps directly, at 50hz on the 21.0 and 18.0 120db sweeps they look like there is about the same distortion, just over 6%, but if you go look and see what the measured output was for each on those sweeps at 50hz the 21.0 was putting out in fact about 1.5 db more output at that same distortion level.
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post #2827 of 4693 Old 05-21-2017, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
But speakers and subs are not the same. Speakers can have very different SQ below their SPL limits, whereas as well designed subs generally sound the same.

So long as clean adequate output is acheived at the SPL desired the choice of sub brand is generally irrelevant.

Build quality and general reliabilty of drivers and amps are a concern with subs though, so brand can matter there for sure.
The thing to consider it at what level do you call it "clean", and that is not always at the same amount "below SPL limits", for different subs. I consider the range from 60-100hz very important for subs and greatly affects their perceived "sound", even when crossing over "low" like around 60-80hz the subwoofer is still putting out a significant amount up to ~100hz. Even sometimes at surprising amounts below maximum output you can detect differences in sound between subwoofers due to distortion. If you have looked at the databass charts a lot you may notice many subs will be over ~5% THD for in some cases several sweeps below there "max output" in this range. I have done some experiments with at what point is distortion "perceivable" and depending on the harmonics present even as little as 3-5% can be detected in the range over 60hz.
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post #2828 of 4693 Old 05-21-2017, 10:24 AM
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Overall though, I'd recommend subs from JTR, Seaton Sound, or Funk over what JBL has to offer. That's not to say that JBL subs are bad at all.
Have you heard the JBL S2S-EX? I have a couple in my theater - when / if you come down to listen to the M2s (which should be arriving this week coming up) we can give them a good workout. I can honestly say I've never had a tighter, more dynamic sub in my theater.

FYI, got a few comments from Harman on subs (after reading through some of the preceding). Using the same double blind comparison tests and fully implemented Klippel measurement techniques, they can confidently claim that JBL and Revel subs outperform all subs in their price range for their standard distribution channel. FWIW, they do not test mail order subs.

Harman admits that the mail order guys have a cost advantage, mainly due to the fact that most of them have little overhead, have less invested in the "R" in the R&D, and do not have access to the very expensive test equipment needed to optimize woofer designs. Harman uses the Klippel system to perfectly center the voice coil in the magnetic field, as well as optimize everything for lowest distortion and maximum linear excursion.

This is not meant to insult any of the hardworking, highly competent subwoofer designers out there, it's just offered as a little bit of perspective.

RE: testing methods and Klippel. I posted this a while back, a direct quote from Tim Gladwin, lead engineer of the Synthesis team at Harman:

As speakers and speaker technology has evolved and improved, it becomes much harder to make true breakthroughs. The incremental effort to make a substantial change is much higher now than it was in the 1970’s. Moreover, we have tools now that can measure characteristics that we could not measure, even a few years ago. Many of our competitors have the same tools. In the 1970s (1980s..1990s) an improvement merely had to be plausible because there were simply no adequate measurement methods. Harman, and specifically our group, continues to invest heavily in leading edge R&D equipment to keep the facilities contemporary and relevant. From personal experience, I can attest that applying modern measurement techniques to older drivers can be a very humbling experience.

There is never any shame in finding out through new techniques that a feature into which you invested substantial effort in fact doesn’t really work as you thought. You simply take it as a lesson. However, if instead you chose to deny the new information in order to support a false reality, well that is a failure. Unfortunately there are some people who do believe that speakers were perfected years ago, and they treat the new methods with denial. They are simply wrong. I am committed to using all of the science-based methods available to improve Harman’s products, regardless of the effects such efforts may have on personal egos. My team in Northridge shares this commitment. We intend that customers will hear changes (for the better) in Harman Luxury products going forward.


This seems to line up with the discussion I've been having with Dr. Toole over e-mail - that factors thought to be detrimental to sound quality are not nearly as deleterious as previously thought (such as the audibility of certain types of distortion), and other factors are turning out to be far more important than previously thought (the importance of off-axis and sound power response).

Of course, this is all the reality of science, in that current knowledge is simply the building block for future breakthroughs. What is most impressive to me about Harman is the dedication to science reflected in the statement above, and the willingness to embrace new techniques that might prove everything they previously thought as wrong (often the result of such future breakthroughs). The fact that they can now predict with 86% accuracy which speaker will win a double blind test based on the measurement techniques Harman has developed speaks volumes. It is also to Harman's credit that they share all the results of their research with the rest of the audio world, which means better audio products from everyone.

RE: the Klippel test equipment - this was also shared with me:

Everyone has a basic Klippel, usually 1. We have 4 in Northridge (and counting) and they are very well equipped. Yes, these are the tools that reveal issues with all drivers. The key thing is that we know how to use the tools and why to use them. Almost every major vendor has a basic Klippel install. However, many companies simply use Klippel for one test and often didn’t even use the test results to change the product.

We know how to use it and why to use it, not just to generate data, but to use it to make better products


Hope the above it interesting and illuminating
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post #2829 of 4693 Old 05-21-2017, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Blackdevil77 View Post
So the 2x4 balanced? The forum on mini-dsp isn't much help at all, nobody gets any answers.

What happens with ARC, if I want to use ARC for the mains, but the mini-dsp for the subs? I don't think I can turn off ARC for the subs but on for the mains, it's either all on or all off? Would I have to disable ARC to be able to use the mini-dsp processing for the subs?
My understanding is that you would use the Mini-DSP to simply set the delays, and then let ARC do the correction for all subs combined. Couple of good links here re: Anthem ARC and multiple subs. I wouldn't recommend DIRAC over ARC for sub correction / blending:

http://www.audioholics.com/room-acou...m-eq-interview

Anthem also has a great FAQ on their site - touches on multiple subs briefly, but it reflects a wonderful science-based, myth-busting approach to audio electronics in general (amps and pre-amps):

https://www.anthemav.com/support/faq.php

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post #2830 of 4693 Old 05-21-2017, 10:45 AM
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What pre/pro would you guys recommend for an M2-based setup for around $5,000? I see the Anthem AVM 60 is widely used here. Is it a good match?
Absolutely. Outside of the JBL SDP75 (which I understand is not in your budget), there is no pre-pro I would recommend higher. I think most here would agree.

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post #2831 of 4693 Old 05-21-2017, 10:54 AM
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What's your opinion on having the side surrounds slightly in front of the MLP in a 7.1.4 setup? I might have to do this due to room limitations. Back surrounds will be where they should be (on the back wall).
FWIW, some at Harman express a preference for side surrounds slightly ahead of MLP, at 60 degrees vs. 90 (as our ears are far more sensitive to immersive effects out to about 60 degrees). What you may lose is a bit of accuracy in sound placement, in that a sound that should come from directly beside you is now placed in front of you. However, I can't imagine that such discrete effects would be very common!

With Atmos, remember that sounds are rendered as 3D objects in "aural" space. The more speakers you have, the more accurately you can place that sound within that space. If one only has 7 speakers (say, 5 on the floor and two in the ceiling), audio objects will be "drawn" with much lower resolution than someone who has 11 speakers (7 on the floor and 4 in the ceiling - the maximum limit of the vast majority of surround processors).

With the SDP75 and Trinnov units, one can have up to 32 discrete "channels" (the full Dolby home spec is 24 on the floor and 10 in the ceiling). Obviously with such a set up your aural resolution is very high in terms of object placement.

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post #2832 of 4693 Old 05-21-2017, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Funk Audio View Post
You cannot simply look at two subs distortion sweeps and pick the one with the same "level" and compare them to see what one is better. The 21.0 has less distortion overall than the 18.0, along with more output, all in the same size enclosure, even though directly comparing say the 120db sweeps it looks worse. To compare two different subwoofers you must factor in response shape, and just as importantly compression on the higher sweeps, as all else equal the one with the lower compression will look "worse" for distortion when it may in fact be better. Now its not as complicated as factoring in everything yourself and working it all out, you can "start from the end" basically and do the following;
Choose a frequency you want to compare, lets say 20hz, then look at the "long term output compression sweeps" and find the point where they match and make note of what "sweep level" that is for each unit, it wont always be perfect match but close enough to get a good idea, and one can extrapolate between some lines if needed. So for the 21.0 to 18.0 the 21.0 is putting out a tad more at 20hz on its 115 db sweep as the 18.0 is putting out on its 120db sweep, so you then go and look at the distortion curves to see what each was doing at that output, ~103db in this case, the 21.0 was at about 11%, the 18 at 12%. Even at the theoretically "matched" frequency of 50hz you cannot compare the sweeps directly, at 50hz on the 21.0 and 18.0 120db sweeps they look like there is about the same distortion, just over 6%, but if you go look and see what the measured output was for each on those sweeps at 50hz the 21.0 was putting out in fact about 1.5 db more output at that same distortion level.
rofl, figured if josh labeled something 120db @ 50hz it would be at 120db...

anyway, the 120v sweep for the 18" is actually at 120db, the 21 at 120.5.. distortion on the 21 was a bit less than 2% under the 18 at that point...

If we compare the 18" 240v 120db sweep to the 21" 115db sweep at 20hz, where they align at 103db, they're like 0.3-0.4% apart around 11% THD. Considering the 18 is working harder to hit those output levels...

Anyway, it's irrelevant if the UH woofer is in the 21 now... That woofer looks impressive. I was just going off memory on my original statement, which looking at the data again, I likely based off comparing the GUJ18 on the powersoft to the fw21, which isn't really a fair comparison.

Are you going to send off a UH21 for Josh to test at any point? The other drivers weren't really interesting me due to motor strength, but that one has plenty.
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post #2833 of 4693 Old 05-21-2017, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
Have you heard the JBL S2S-EX? I have a couple in my theater - when / if you come down to listen to the M2s (which should be arriving this week coming up) we can give them a good workout. I can honestly say I've never had a tighter, more dynamic sub in my theater.

FYI, got a few comments from Harman on subs (after reading through some of the preceding). Using the same double blind comparison tests and fully implemented Klippel measurement techniques, they can confidently claim that JBL and Revel subs outperform all subs in their price range for their standard distribution channel. FWIW, they do not test mail order subs.

Harman admits that the mail order guys have a cost advantage, mainly due to the fact that most of them have little overhead, have less invested in the "R" in the R&D, and do not have access to the very expensive test equipment needed to optimize woofer designs. Harman uses the Klippel system to perfectly center the voice coil in the magnetic field, as well as optimize everything for lowest distortion and maximum linear excursion.

This is not meant to insult any of the hardworking, highly competent subwoofer designers out there, it's just offered as a little bit of perspective.
blah blah blah
jbl subs are kind of a joke compared to other offerings. not much else to it. They're like 15 years behind on displacement. The 2269h is one of their better units and one of the few I'd actually consider using, but the motor isn't very strong and it's suspension limits displacement. While great for the upper end, they won't keep up on the lower. None of the JBL subs even try, as they're all running higher frequency tunes. That alone is a loss for them.

And these comments are trivializing the work done by others, such as @Funk Audio , who are building their own woofers that absolutely smoke JBL's offerings. Nevermind the other manufacturers who only sell drivers such as SI, IST, FI, AE, etc.

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post #2834 of 4693 Old 05-21-2017, 12:55 PM
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oh cmon, like nobody can hook up an SP or other worthwhile amp to some sealed subs and apply dsp/limiters correctly.... I understand you have a product to sell, but not everyone who DIYs is a moron.
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There's a lot more there than just the limiter. Unless you've tested many of the drivers, a DIYer has no way of knowing what the expected limits are vs other issues happening before those limits causing either distortions or highly audible sounds of distress. While anyone can, I suspect you would be surprised if you interviewed DIYers to see how many measured the behavior of the sub itself (NF in room to confirm performance is fine), and see similarly surprising responses when asking if they went through testing for any leaks, squeaks, or rattles with a test signal. While a few do, plenty of DIY-favorite amps don't have internal limiting, and a MiniDSP 2x4 does not include any features for limiting. Quick setting of limiters can result in noises that sound similar to hard clipping and just protect from death while still making bad noises. If more optimally dialed in, it's possible to increase useful playback levels by 6-12dB with very minimal audible changes in the first 6dB of that, and nothing offensive well beyond.

You are an experienced builder with a good deal of knowledge. Inside an echo chamber of a small DIY community it may feel like most should know these things and practice them, but that has not been the reality I have observed, where such cases are the exception. It has little to do with what someone *could* do, but rather is all about what people take the time and effort to do, or have the persistence to figure out the issue when things don't behave as expected. Companies producing other subwoofers on the market *could* do many of the things you might in a build, or similar things I do. The reality is that many don't. The reasons vary from feeling it doesn't matter, not seeing it as worth the time and effort, or in fact not knowing any better. Before starting Seaton Sound I thought the relatively elegant/simple sealed subwoofer that wasn't electronically castrated with a useful, starting low frequency extension was too obvious an offering to start out with and I started experimenting with more exotic solutions. Even after a few years of pointing other manufacturers to offer the right combo, almost none bothered, so I did. Fortunately there are many more such offerings available today, but most every manufacturer chooses to do things a bit different. The things I mentioned aren't about cost, they're about polish and refinement of the end product, and willingness to hold things up rather than ship out a an under-performing item.
I'd just like to add on to Mark's answer a little bit on why I think Mark's subwoofers are much more refined than what a DIY'er can normally achieve.

I deal a lot with limiters for my own speakers because it is a necessity when trying to get as much bass as possible from a small speaker. Before the journey I thought limiters are simple devices that'll just clamp the output from exceeding a certain threshold. Boy was I wrong.

Yes, the miniDSP has a limiter function, but I'd go so far to say that it is almost useless. Here's why

Simplistically, the miniDSP's limiter pretty much works like this: If it detects the signal exceeds the threshold, it reduces the entire channel's volume by the amount it exceeds the threshold by. For example, if a sudden signal comes in and it exceeds the threshold by 5dB, miniDSP will reduce the channel's volume by 5dB so it stays under the threshold.

The problem? This is not frequency aware, so instead of limiting just the frequencies that exceed the threshold, it brings down the whole subwoofer volume. Why is that a problem? Let's give an exaggerated scenario (which isn't too far from reality). Let's say you have a small sealed sub that uses EQ to boost the low end extension. Let's say the subwoofer is 20dB down at 10Hz. You'd put a 20dB shelf boost on the subwoofer so it'll be flat to 10Hz. Now, you put on your favourite vinyl album on, and the typical vinyl has a low frequency rumble in the single digits, let's say 10Hz. Let's say the vinyl track only has 40Hz bass, and the subwoofer can play 110dB at 40Hz and starts rolling off right after. Now because the EQ is boosting 10Hz by 20dB, this means that even though your subwoofer can play 110dB at 40Hz, the limiter will prevent the subwoofer from playing above 90dB because the 20dB of the EQ on 10Hz is causing the subwoofer to reach its limits already at 10Hz. That's bad to say the least. And this is exactly what the miniDSP and the iNuke limiters do, and this type of limiter is called a single band limiter. The only purpose they serve is to physically protect your speakers, that's it. For audio use, it is horrible and nearly useless.

So what we really want is to cap the 10Hz stuff at 90dB, and continue to let the 40Hz stuff play up to 110dB, and then limit it there. So what we do is to separate the bass into multiple bands. If we had 2 bands, <40Hz and 40-80Hz, then we can achieve what we want. But the problem still exists, just at a smaller bandwidth. So the solution is just to separate them into more bands to reduce this problem. This is called a multi-band limiter.

There are also various other issues with peak limiters like the ones described above. They introduce distortions and artifacts because they are analyzing signals in real time. For example, there is no way to know if a signal is 10Hz or 20Hz instantaneously. You need to wait at least the time needed for sound to travel the equivalent of the wavelength of the frequency. For example, the wavelength of 20Hz is 57 feet. It takes sound 50ms to travel 57 feet. So there is no way to know if that's a 20Hz sound for sure until 57ms has passed. But what happens if the signal has exceeded the threshold, how does it know if it should be limited? One way is just to clip the signal until it knows the frequency, and that's one source of distortion. And now what about the phase shifts that are introduced from the filters used to separate the bass into multiple bands? There are many other issues, and hopefully you see that a limiter design is much more complicated than one would think.

While I don't know what kind of limiter Mark does for his subwoofers, I can guarantee it is much more complicated and effective than what DIY'ers can do with miniDSP and iNukes. I can also guarantee all of you will underestimate the amount of time Mark spent on dialing in the limiters. If his experience is anything like mine, it involves lots and LOTS of listening sessions with only the subwoofer playing, listening to the same thing over and over again dozens and dozens of times, then repeat with different materials.

Last edited by bcodemz; 05-21-2017 at 12:58 PM.
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post #2835 of 4693 Old 05-21-2017, 01:05 PM
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I'd just like to add on to Mark's answer a little bit on why I think Mark's subwoofers are much more refined than what a DIY'er can normally achieve.

I deal a lot with limiters for my own speakers because it is a necessity when trying to get as much bass as possible from a small speaker. Before the journey I thought limiters are simple devices that'll just clamp the output from exceeding a certain threshold. Boy was I wrong.

Yes, the miniDSP has a limiter function, but I'd go so far to say that it is almost useless. Here's why

Simplistically, the miniDSP's limiter pretty much works like this: If it detects the signal exceeds the threshold, it reduces the entire channel's volume by the amount it exceeds the threshold by. For example, if a sudden signal comes in and it exceeds the threshold by 5dB, miniDSP will reduce the channel's volume by 5dB so it stays under the threshold.

The problem? This is not frequency aware, so instead of limiting just the frequencies that exceed the threshold, it brings down the whole subwoofer volume. Why is that a problem? Let's give an exaggerated scenario (which isn't too far from reality). Let's say you have a small sealed sub that uses EQ to boost the low end extension. Let's say the subwoofer is 20dB down at 10Hz. You'd put a 20dB shelf boost on the subwoofer so it'll be flat to 10Hz. Now, you put on your favourite vinyl album on, and the typical vinyl has a low frequency rumble in the single digits, let's say 10Hz. Let's say the vinyl track only has 40Hz bass, and the subwoofer can play 110dB at 40Hz and starts rolling off right after. Now because the EQ is boosting 10Hz by 20dB, this means that even though your subwoofer can play 110dB at 40Hz, the limiter will prevent the subwoofer from playing above 90dB because the 20dB of the EQ on 10Hz is causing the subwoofer to reach its limits already at 10Hz. That's bad to say the least. And this is exactly what the miniDSP and the iNuke limiters do, and this type of limiter is called a single band limiter. The only purpose they serve is to physically protect your speakers, that's it. For audio use, it is horrible and nearly useless.

So what we really want is to cap the 10Hz stuff at 90dB, and continue to let the 40Hz stuff play up to 110dB, and then limit it there. So what we do is to separate the bass into multiple bands. If we had 2 bands, <40Hz and 40-80Hz, then we can achieve what we want. But the problem still exists, just at a smaller bandwidth. So the solution is just to separate them into more bands to reduce this problem. This is called a multi-band limiter.

There are also various other issues with peak limiters like the ones described above. They introduce distortions and artifacts because they are analyzing signals in real time. For example, there is no way to know if a signal is 10Hz or 20Hz instantaneously. You need to wait at least the time needed for sound to travel the equivalent of the wavelength of the frequency. For example, the wavelength of 20Hz is 57 feet. It takes sound 50ms to travel 57 feet. So there is no way to know if that's a 20Hz sound for sure until 57ms has passed. But what happens if the signal has exceeded the threshold, how does it know if it should be limited? One way is just to clip the signal until it knows the frequency, and that's one source of distortion. There are many other issues, and hopefully you see that a limiter design is much more complicated than one would think.

While I don't know what kind of limiter Mark does for his subwoofers, I can guarantee it is much more complicated and effective than what DIY'ers can do with miniDSP and iNukes. I can also guarantee all of you will underestimate the amount of time Mark spent on dialing in the limiters. If his experience is anything like mine, it involves lots and LOTS of listening sessions with only the subwoofer playing, listening to the same thing over and over again dozens and dozens of times, then repeat with different materials.

I did mention this, I even listed amps that can do limiting on a specific frequency range. Either way, there's nothing he's doing that another can't recreate. You're taking an off the shelf sub, putting into a box, and using an off the shelf plate amp. Yes, there's some dsp involved there, but that's not magic. Defining a limiter isn't rocket science either. Does excursion or distortion get too high at a given frequency? Increase limiter. (yes this is simplifying it slightly). Where it gets more advanced is long term thermal limiting. Some amps out there can sense impedance changes when coils start to get too hot and back off. Granted, most in DIY aren't using this, or even needing it. The DSP in the SP amps has time based throttling capabilities.

Not everyone who DIY's uses minidsps and inukes. Even so, the inukes have dynamic EQ which can also be used to limit output in a specific region.
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post #2836 of 4693 Old 05-21-2017, 01:09 PM
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jbl subs are kind of a joke compared to other offerings. not much else to it. They're like 15 years behind on displacement. The 2269h is one of their better units and one of the few I'd actually consider using, but the motor isn't very strong and it's suspension limits displacement. While great for the upper end, they won't keep up on the lower. None of the JBL subs even try, as they're all running higher frequency tunes. That alone is a loss for them.

And these comments are trivializing the work done by others, such as @Funk Audio , who are building their own woofers that absolutely smoke JBL's offerings. Nevermind the other manufacturers who only sell drivers such as SI, IST, FI, AE, etc.
Not meant to trivialize. Comments were intended generally and not necessarily directed at any one manufacturer. As you know, there are a ton of ID subwoofer manufacturers out there, some better, some worse.

Do you have a full Klippel suite? Curious what you are using to take and process measurements. That's what most of the comments were about (you snipped those). Me, I don't have any of it, so to the greatest extent I rely on statements of those I trust.

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post #2837 of 4693 Old 05-21-2017, 01:11 PM
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My understanding is that you would use the Mini-DSP to simply set the delays, and then let ARC do the correction for all subs combined. Couple of good links here re: Anthem ARC and multiple subs. I wouldn't recommend DIRAC over ARC for sub correction / blending:

http://www.audioholics.com/room-acou...m-eq-interview

Anthem also has a great FAQ on their site - touches on multiple subs briefly, but it reflects a wonderful science-based, myth-busting approach to audio electronics in general (amps and pre-amps):

https://www.anthemav.com/support/faq.php
I think a lot of the problem is the phase. The subs, although in different locations, are close to the same distance to the MLP. My problem is a delay that gives me the most output at 80 hz (crossover frequency), also gives me the least at 60hz. The distance setting that gives me the most output at 60hz, gives me the least at 80. There doesn't seem to be a single distance setting that is optimal. It seems as if the subs are out of phase with the mains at 60hz, but in phase at 80hz and vice versa, based on the set delay.
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post #2838 of 4693 Old 05-21-2017, 01:19 PM
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Not meant to trivialize. Comments were intended generally and not necessarily directed at any one manufacturer. As you know, there are a ton of ID subwoofer manufacturers out there, some better, some worse.

Do you have a full Klippel suite? Curious what you are using to take and process measurements. That's what most of the comments were about (you snipped those). Me, I don't have any of it, so to the greatest extent I rely on statements of those I trust.
No, I don't have klippel capabilities. That's great when testing and manufacturing drivers, but given the lack of displacement from JBL subs, there rest just doesn't matter.

Take the s2s-ex for example. Usable fr range listed is 22hz. You're not going to be able to boost below that either. That's not going to cut it for myself or many others who want response an octave below that. JBL subs lack the displacement to extend low enough. Not much else to it. The 2269 is one of the only subs I've seen from them where excursion even approaches levels we were seeing from commodity subs 15 years ago.

Don't get me wrong, their subs are great in the ranges they run in, they just lack displacement and/or power handling for the most part. If the 2269h could linearly to 30mm and beyond, I'd sure consider using one.

Have you seen data-bass?
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post #2839 of 4693 Old 05-21-2017, 01:34 PM
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No, I don't have klippel capabilities. That's great when testing and manufacturing drivers, but given the lack of displacement from JBL subs, there rest just doesn't matter.

Take the s2s-ex for example. Usable fr range listed is 22hz. You're not going to be able to boost below that either. That's not going to cut it for myself or many others who want response an octave below that. JBL subs lack the displacement to extend low enough. Not much else to it. The 2269 is one of the only subs I've seen from them where excursion even approaches levels we were seeing from commodity subs 15 years ago.

Don't get me wrong, their subs are great in the ranges they run in, they just lack displacement and/or power handling for the most part. If the 2269h could linearly to 30mm and beyond, I'd sure consider using one.

Have you seen data-bass?
OK, I get more of where you are coming from - it's within the context of plumbing the depths below 20 hz or so. My point in this regard is that a) there is very little content below 20 hz in the vast majority of recordings, and b) chances are what is there was never heard by the mastering engineer (Circle of Confusion-type issues - I don't know of a mix stage anywhere that is monitoring content below 20 hz - most are lucky to get down to 25hz). We've discussed this topic before, so no desire to rehash. Just thought it was important to clarify context for both of us - this helps

Yes, I've been to data-bass.

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post #2840 of 4693 Old 05-21-2017, 01:36 PM
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So the 2x4 balanced? The forum on mini-dsp isn't much help at all, nobody gets any answers.

What happens with ARC, if I want to use ARC for the mains, but the mini-dsp for the subs? I don't think I can turn off ARC for the subs but on for the mains, it's either all on or all off? Would I have to disable ARC to be able to use the mini-dsp processing for the subs?

MRX 1120/720 AVM 60 - Anthem. You can turn off subs and selected speakers just download the pdf or get out your manual.

Also this helped a crap ton for me.


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...g-minidsp.html
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post #2841 of 4693 Old 05-21-2017, 01:38 PM
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My point in this regard is that a) there is very little content below 20 hz in the vast majority of recordings
Wrong. sssoooooooooo very wrong.


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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
chances are what is there was never heard by the mastering engineer (Circle of Confusion-type issues - I don't know of a mix stage anywhere that is monitoring content below 20 hz - most are lucky to get down to 25hz). We've discussed this topic before, so no desire to rehash. Just thought it was important to clarify context for both of us - this helps
We've had film mixers on AVS dropping into threads giving nods that there would be some very low bass for them in specific films.


You might want to browse through here:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...cy-charts.html

Also, do you think the tones at the start of edge of tomorrow were put there on accident? There's a 15hz fundamental there, fully synthetic tones.
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post #2842 of 4693 Old 05-21-2017, 02:06 PM
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Need a quick re-assurance.

I am very close to finally settling down with the following setup and would appreciate some (final) feedback.

Amplifiers: 3 x Crown iTech 5000HD + 1 x Crown DCi 8|300
Center: 1 x JBL M2
Mains: 2 x JBL M2
Side surrounds: 2 x JBL SCS 8
Back surrounds: 2 x JBL SCS 8
Ceiling: 4 x JBL SCS 8
Subwoofer: *continue using my single Seaton Sound SubMersive for now*

I am using the SCS 8 for surrounds/ceiling in order to save some cost over the 7 Series and also to ensure I have speakers that can "endure" my high SPL requirements. I tend to go crazy with the volume when permitted.

By the way, I realize I could use any amplifier for the eight SCS 8 speakers but chose the Crown amplifier because I want to keep everything Harman as much as possible and, secondly, I know it will work well the speakers.
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post #2843 of 4693 Old 05-21-2017, 02:32 PM
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Need a quick re-assurance.

I am very close to finally settling down with the following setup and would appreciate some (final) feedback.

Amplifiers: 3 x Crown iTech 5000HD + 1 x Crown DCi 8|300
Center: 1 x JBL M2
Mains: 2 x JBL M2
Side surrounds: 2 x JBL SCS 8
Back surrounds: 2 x JBL SCS 8
Ceiling: 4 x JBL SCS 8
Subwoofer: *continue using my single Seaton Sound SubMersive for now*

I am using the SCS 8 for surrounds/ceiling in order to save some cost over the 7 Series and also to ensure I have speakers that can "endure" my high SPL requirements. I tend to go crazy with the volume when permitted.

By the way, I realize I could use any amplifier for the eight SCS 8 speakers but chose the Crown amplifier because I want to keep everything Harman as much as possible and, secondly, I know it will work well the speakers.
You are hereby reassured!
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post #2844 of 4693 Old 05-21-2017, 02:45 PM
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The thing to consider it at what level do you call it "clean", and that is not always at the same amount "below SPL limits", for different subs. I consider the range from 60-100hz very important for subs and greatly affects their perceived "sound", even when crossing over "low" like around 60-80hz the subwoofer is still putting out a significant amount up to ~100hz. Even sometimes at surprising amounts below maximum output you can detect differences in sound between subwoofers due to distortion. If you have looked at the databass charts a lot you may notice many subs will be over ~5% THD for in some cases several sweeps below there "max output" in this range. I have done some experiments with at what point is distortion "perceivable" and depending on the harmonics present even as little as 3-5% can be detected in the range over 60hz.
I believe it. Lukily I'm not a bass fiend. Because of room restraints I have to compromise between one or two large subs or four smaller distributed subs.

I prefer smoother response across the listening positions and I can't get a great response with two subs in my room. Music is a priority for me over HT and output of four 15" subs, particularly corner loaded, should do the job.
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post #2845 of 4693 Old 05-21-2017, 03:22 PM
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To quote ME "My point in this regard is that a) there is very little content below 20 hz in the vast majority of recordings."

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Wrong. sssoooooooooo very wrong.
Really??? You mean if we got back and include all of the recordings ever made since the beginning of the art - say, since the late 1800s - we would find even a significant percentage of them have actual musical content below 20 hz? Let's even be realistic in terms of what people actually listen to - say, recordings from the 60s through to today - that again, what percentage do you think would have any real, significant, deliberate musical content below 20 hz? Which recordings are you referring to? I certainly don't claim that there are none, but I'd like to know now you can claim that I am "sssoooooooooo very wrong" about this? (Had to count the number of s's and o's to make sure I was correct in just how wrong I was, lol.)

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We've had film mixers on AVS dropping into threads giving nods that there would be some very low bass for them in specific films.
I'm sure there are a few. But I have talked to several mixers out in L.A. recently, and also back in 2012 - 2013 when I was working with the studios and post houses to advocate for adding anamorphic video support to the UHD standard. The consensus was that most below 20 hz content was inadvertent, and in most cases anything below 20 hz was deliberately filtered out. With music recordings, often what can be found on a recording is HVAC and traffic noise leaking into the recording studio. Most of the time the engineer will deliberately filter that out - a common practice to with on set dialogue / foley recordings. In fact, it's one of the first things you do when prepping the tracks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
You might want to browse through here:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...cy-charts.html

Also, do you think the tones at the start of edge of tomorrow were put there on accident? There's a 15hz fundamental there, fully synthetic tones.
I have browsed through that list before. Nice list of 242 films (out of many many thousands of films produced), many of which are crap like TRANSFORMERS and MAN OF STEEL. I guess for those crave these types of action blockbusters, the occasional blast of sub-20 hz bass might be quite a thrill. My guess is that much of that bass was put in there deliberately - there are plugins in ProTools that automatically generate extra low bass fundamentals. My point was only that it is not all that likely that that kind of bass content was actually heard on the mix stage. Doesn't mean it isn't there deliberately, or that some really enjoy the extra bass boost when it comes.

If you like it and want it great. And more power to others that do as well.

Speaking of MAN OF STEEL, I finally sat through this incredible over-foley'd and LOUD "SPINAL TAP" of a movie last night - watched the UHD Blu-ray with my daughter. We were both in hysterics - not only at the ludicrous dialogue ("...if history has proven anything...it is that evolution always wins"), but at the ridiculous over the top sound mix as well. Every sound - from someone shutting a door to setting down a coffee pot - was intensely overdone to the point of ludicrousness. An aural rape, if you will. And to top it off I had to endure Hans Zimmer's ridiculous drum circle poundings and simple-minded string ostinatos for almost two and a half hours.

Maybe my MAN OF STEEL hangover is why this has topic has me all worked up today, lol. Sorry about the off-topic rant

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post #2846 of 4693 Old 05-21-2017, 03:24 PM
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Need a quick re-assurance.

I am very close to finally settling down with the following setup and would appreciate some (final) feedback.

Amplifiers: 3 x Crown iTech 5000HD + 1 x Crown DCi 8|300
Center: 1 x JBL M2
Mains: 2 x JBL M2
Side surrounds: 2 x JBL SCS 8
Back surrounds: 2 x JBL SCS 8
Ceiling: 4 x JBL SCS 8
Subwoofer: *continue using my single Seaton Sound SubMersive for now*

I am using the SCS 8 for surrounds/ceiling in order to save some cost over the 7 Series and also to ensure I have speakers that can "endure" my high SPL requirements. I tend to go crazy with the volume when permitted.

By the way, I realize I could use any amplifier for the eight SCS 8 speakers but chose the Crown amplifier because I want to keep everything Harman as much as possible and, secondly, I know it will work well the speakers.
Nice setup You could certainly save a bit more money and go with the Crown DCi8|1250n for the M2s.

Go for it! I know this has been a long journey for you - time to start enjoying!
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post #2847 of 4693 Old 05-21-2017, 03:52 PM
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Thanks.

@Gooddoc

You use a retractable projection screen, correct? Could you state which one you use? It's not acoustically transparent, right?
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Originally Posted by Kain View Post
Need a quick re-assurance.

I am very close to finally settling down with the following setup and would appreciate some (final) feedback.

Amplifiers: 3 x Crown iTech 5000HD + 1 x Crown DCi 8|300
Center: 1 x JBL M2
Mains: 2 x JBL M2
Side surrounds: 2 x JBL SCS 8
Back surrounds: 2 x JBL SCS 8
Ceiling: 4 x JBL SCS 8
Subwoofer: *continue using my single Seaton Sound SubMersive for now*

I am using the SCS 8 for surrounds/ceiling in order to save some cost over the 7 Series and also to ensure I have speakers that can "endure" my high SPL requirements. I tend to go crazy with the volume when permitted.

By the way, I realize I could use any amplifier for the eight SCS 8 speakers but chose the Crown amplifier because I want to keep everything Harman as much as possible and, secondly, I know it will work well the speakers.
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post #2849 of 4693 Old 05-21-2017, 03:58 PM
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Missing measurements plus give it a break

The Data-bass.com list of tested subwoofers includes:

Funk Audio
HSU Research
JBL
JTR
PowerSound Audio
Rythmic Audio
SVS
Velodyne

and

Others...

I don't see Seaton listed. Please let me know if I missed it. The absence of hard measurements for a brand is, and has been, a disqualifier for me. Subs can be measured and characterized. Where are the measurements? Are measurements posted on another site?

Another question: Often subwoofer sites turn into; "Mine is bigger that yours" chains of posts, just as has happened in this thread. It isn't clear what the M2 site did to deserve such treatment.
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post #2850 of 4693 Old 05-21-2017, 04:01 PM
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The Data-bass.com list of tested subwoofers includes:

Funk Audio
HSU Research
JBL
JTR
PowerSound Audio
Rythmic Audio
SVS
Velodyne

and

Others...

I don't see Seaton listed. Please let me know if I missed it. The absence of hard measurements for a brand is, and has been, a disqualifier for me. Subs can be measured and characterized. Where are the measurements? Are measurements posted on another site?

Another question: Often subwoofer sites turn into; "Mine is bigger that yours" chains of posts, just as has happened in this thread. It isn't clear what the M2 site did to deserve such treatment.
Here is a review of the SubMersive: http://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/s...hpi-subwoofer/
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