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post #2941 of 4597 Old 05-28-2017, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
Good stuff

Off the Harman list, I think the following really benefit from being turned up:

• Welcome to My World – Depeche Mode
• Coldest Winter – Kanye West
• Planet Dada (Flamboyant) – Yello
• Los - Rammstein
• Fly Like an Eagle – Seal
• Limit to Your Love – James Blake
• Starstruck – Lady Gaga
• Fever – Malia and Boris Blank
• Magnetic Lies – Malia and Boris Blank
• No Sanctuary Here – Chris Jones
• Fragments of Time – Daft Punk
Can I bring a USB stick with some hi-res .FLAC files? I have at least a few music recordings with serious dynamics, both low and high frequency (or both), that could potentially differentiate the Salon 2s, the 708is and the M2s.
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post #2942 of 4597 Old 05-28-2017, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by awediophile View Post
Can I bring a USB stick with some hi-res .FLAC files? I have at least a few music recordings with serious dynamics, both low and high frequency (or both), that could potentially differentiate the Salon 2s, the 708is and the M2s.
Sure. It's going to be fun swapping out all those speakers, loading in tuning files, etc

John Schuermann
The Screening Room Home Theater Sales and Design
JS Music and Sound Film Scoring and Sound Design
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post #2943 of 4597 Old 05-29-2017, 02:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
Sure. It's going to be fun swapping out all those speakers, loading in tuning files, etc
On the subject of tunings... There's a curious difference between the DCI and Itech tunings for the M2. Care to poke pro to find out what the deal is? In positions 9-14 the Itech has input EQ, yet the DCIn does not. I can see them either being left in accidentally, or missed when transferring since the DCI only has 8 channels of input EQ. The DCI files are a couple of years newer.


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post #2944 of 4597 Old 05-29-2017, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
On the subject of tunings... There's a curious difference between the DCI and Itech tunings for the M2. Care to poke pro to find out what the deal is? In positions 9-14 the Itech has input EQ, yet the DCIn does not. I can see them either being left in accidentally, or missed when transferring since the DCI only has 8 channels of input EQ. The DCI files are a couple of years newer.

I'm not seeing that for some reason. Am I looking at the right thing?
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post #2945 of 4597 Old 05-29-2017, 09:09 AM
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I'm not seeing that for some reason. Am I looking at the right thing?
Go online in AA and load the filters from the amp into AA and see if you see them. They should be there.
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post #2946 of 4597 Old 05-29-2017, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
Go online in AA and load the filters from the amp into AA and see if you see them. They should be there.
you won't see that unless you unlock the files
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post #2947 of 4597 Old 05-29-2017, 07:36 PM
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you won't see that unless you unlock the files
He should be seeing the 9-16 input EQ filters, they're not locked. That is what I thought he was talking about.
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post #2948 of 4597 Old 05-30-2017, 04:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
He should be seeing the 9-16 input EQ filters, they're not locked. That is what I thought he was talking about.
That is what I was talking about. I'll check it out later today if I get a chance.
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post #2949 of 4597 Old 06-02-2017, 01:20 PM
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1. Any issues with having only the center M2 behind a woven AT screen while having the front left and right M2s out in the open? I am assuming no as I've seen quite a few people do this but will there be any issues with sound "consistency"?

2. Any issues with having the front left and right M2s in the corners of the room (but toed-in towards the main listening position)?
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post #2950 of 4597 Old 06-02-2017, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain View Post
1. Any issues with having only the center M2 behind a woven AT screen while having the front left and right M2s out in the open? I am assuming no as I've seen quite a few people do this but will there be any issues with sound "consistency"?

2. Any issues with having the front left and right M2s in the corners of the room (but toed-in towards the main listening position)?
1) there will be hf rolloff, you can correct for this

2) you'll want to experiment with orientation, but you will have an early reflection off the wall.
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post #2951 of 4597 Old 06-02-2017, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
1) there will be hf rolloff, you can correct for this

2) you'll want to experiment with orientation, but you will have an early reflection off the wall.
Thanks.

One more question I forgot to add...

With a listening/viewing distance of roughly 8 ft, will there be any issue if all three M2s are behind a woven AT screen but the distance between the speakers is only roughly 15 inches? Meaning M2 <--15"--> M2 <--15"--> M2? Would I get good separation between the three speakers?
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post #2952 of 4597 Old 06-02-2017, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain View Post
Thanks.

One more question I forgot to add...

With a listening/viewing distance of roughly 8 ft, will there be any issue if all three M2s are behind a woven AT screen but the distance between the speakers is only roughly 15 inches? Meaning M2 <--15"--> M2 <--15"--> M2? Would I get good separation between the three speakers?
That's packing things in kind of close and will negatively impact your imaging
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post #2953 of 4597 Old 06-02-2017, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain View Post
Thanks.

One more question I forgot to add...

With a listening/viewing distance of roughly 8 ft, will there be any issue if all three M2s are behind a woven AT screen but the distance between the speakers is only roughly 15 inches? Meaning M2 <--15"--> M2 <--15"--> M2? Would I get good separation between the three speakers?
No, at least not IMO. Too close, and listening 8' away could (probably will) lead to comb filter (interference) effects among the LCR speakers. Poor imaging all the way around, and little to no stereo separation. The obvious advantage is that, if you want your martini shaken and not stirred, that layout should do it for you. - Don

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #2954 of 4597 Old 06-02-2017, 03:23 PM
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I just got news that my @Funk Audio (master/slave) 21.0LX subs will be shipping next week. They're playing through the weekend!
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post #2955 of 4597 Old 06-02-2017, 05:03 PM
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I just got news that my @Funk Audio (master/slave) 21.0LX subs will be shipping next week. They're playing through the weekend!
Very nice. Those use the UH-21v1 drivers? I think you are in for a real treat.
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post #2956 of 4597 Old 06-02-2017, 05:06 PM
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Very nice. Those use the UH-21v1 drivers? I think you are in for a real treat.
Yes, that's correct, the UH21v1 drivers.
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post #2957 of 4597 Old 06-02-2017, 10:09 PM
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No, at least not IMO. Too close, and listening 8' away could (probably will) lead to comb filter (interference) effects among the LCR speakers.
So you mean doing without a center speaker will be better for movies?

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Poor imaging all the way around, and little to no stereo separation.
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
That's packing things in kind of close and will negatively impact your imaging
What? Folks with small room can't enjoy great audio? So what can we do other than moving to a different room? Get smaller speaker like a JBL 708? I'm 7' away from my 3677 in a small 10' wide room, currently without a center. Base on the statements above, I should not have a center?

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post #2958 of 4597 Old 06-02-2017, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post
So you mean doing without a center speaker will be better for movies?





What? Folks with small room can't enjoy great audio? So what can we do other than moving to a different room? Get smaller speaker like a JBL 708? I'm 7' away from my 3677 in a small 10' wide room, currently without a center. Base on the statements above, I should not have a center?
You should have a center.

It doesn't matter what speakers you're using, 15" spacing between 3 speakers is like 4' between the left and right, you're not going to get good imaging no matter what speakers you use that way. You need to spread them out further.
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post #2959 of 4597 Old 06-02-2017, 10:36 PM
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I just ran the math. Eight feet away, 96". Speakers are 20" wide so spaced 15" apart three M2s plus space yields 90" total across the front, 70" center-to-center for the LR speakers. I did make a mistake and thought the speakers were also 15" wide, however, so it's not as bad as I thought. Anyway, with a 70" spread, you could sit 60.6" away if you buy into the equilateral triangle approach, or about 5 feet. Three feet shy of eight feet, and so the stereo image is going to be a bit "compressed", i.e. more in front of you than desirable. Could you live with it? Probably. You could move closer, though my guess is five feet would feel too close for comfort. And having speakers closer together than they are wide may look a little funky but aesthetics is a secondary issue for many.

I have tried phantom centers on and off and personally prefer a center speaker. It helps balance the sound for more than one person by keeping the dialogue (or stage center for audio recordings in surround) a bit more "centered" for people on the ends of the couch (or whatever). For stereo music the central sound is very stable in my system, to the point that visitors often go stick their ear in the center to prove to themselves that it is off. So it can be done. Still, I feel the sound for movies is better with the center running.

I do not know his (or her) space constraints or size of the room; if that was stated I missed it. So I do not know why the close spacing, or if there is a workaround (like rearranging or reorienting the room). Nor do I know how you got from a simple calculation/comment on stereo imaging to small rooms not being able to have great audio; I certainly never said that. My room is not large by most standards and yet I think it sounds pretty decent.

As I said, in my opinion, no problems if you disagree. But please don't put words in my mouth I did not say. I say more than enough to get in trouble, don't need the help...

YMMV - Don
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post #2960 of 4597 Old 06-03-2017, 10:35 AM
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My 2 cents worth, agree with all of the above. You do want a center channel. Down mixing to stereo and phantom imaging is a far cry from well done discrete L/C/R. Big difference in how you hear what's in the mix and how it was mixed.

Sitting 8 feet back from your setup with 3 M2's spaced only 15" apart will give poor imaging and probably phasing issues at your listening position.. Kind of a waste of great speakers, maybe the wrong speakers for your room.

You need to sit at the apex of an equilateral triangle to get good stereo phantom imaging for stereo only music playback (don't know if that is a concern), but it also makes for much better audio for video.

You could use smaller/narrower profile speakers (JBL LSR 708, Revel F208, Studio2 or Salon2 depending on budget) and gain some in speaker spacing. The M2 (and LSR 7 series) horn/waveguide has very wide dispersion, not great for your situation. Revel tweeters/waveguides might work better for your room.

Another question is, how are you handling low end, i.e. what about subs, how many, placement etc? If your room is small or has bad dimensions, you will have issues getting smooth bass response.

Sounds like you are trying to do much in a small room. Best A/V experience is to design the system for the room and sit in the right place based on your room dimensions.
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post #2961 of 4597 Old 06-03-2017, 12:24 PM
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Thanks for the replies.

My room is small, roughly 15 ft long x 12 ft wide x 9.5 ft high. I have two options for placing the M2 LCR speakers:

1. Along one of the short walls with about 15" spacing between the M2 speakers with all three behind a woven AT screen. The reason I can't spread them out more in this case is because the entrance door to the room is on the adjacent wall right next to the front right M2 and the door opens into the room. A tighter "spread" between the three M2s is required to have the door open (and even then it won't open fully). Roughly 8 ft viewing/listening distance.

2. Along the opposite short wall with the left and right M2 speakers in the corners (and out in the open) with just the center M2 behind a woven AT screen. Roughly 8 ft viewing/listening distance.

For the subwoofer, I will continue using my single SubMersive for now but will most likely add more later or maybe even try another subwoofer(s).

Quick question...

If you have your speakers right in the corners, does it hurt imaging? I mean the speakers won't be able to image beyond the side wall they are next to, right?
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post #2962 of 4597 Old 06-03-2017, 12:48 PM
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I'd go with option 2 to get more distance between speakers and treat the side walls to kill the first reflection points, though Floyd Toole says that may not be necessary.

I had a setup with speakers pretty close to the side walls and corners. Room was well treated and it sounded great, excellent stereo image. You generally don't hear sounds outside the speakers (L/R) unless there is out of phase info in the recording. Getting speakers away from walls and corners does help frequency response and imaging depth (front to back).

I like to keep the speakers in the same plane as the video screen. Putting them too far in front of the screen sounds off to me.

Do you have an equipment room for the noisy fans in the power amps (if you are using Crown i-Techs) to drive the M2's?
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post #2963 of 4597 Old 06-03-2017, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
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I'd go with option 2 to get more distance between speakers and treat the side walls to kill the first reflection points, though Floyd Toole says that may not be necessary.

I had a setup with speakers pretty close to the side walls and corners. Room was well treated and it sounded great, excellent stereo image. You generally don't hear sounds outside the speakers (L/R) unless there is out of phase info in the recording. Getting speakers away from walls and corners does help frequency response and imaging depth (front to back).

I like to keep the speakers in the same plane as the video screen. Putting them too far in front of the screen sounds off to me.

Do you have an equipment room for the noisy fans in the power amps (if you are using Crown i-Techs) to drive the M2's?
Thanks.

I don't really have an equipment room. However, I will first try placing the amps roughly 12 ft away from the listening position in the same room. If it is too intrusive, I could drill a hole in one of the walls and place the amps in a dedicated space outside the room.

By the way, notnyt already answered the following question in another thread but I thought I would ask here again. Basically, what is everyone's opinion on the Meyer Sound Acheron speakers vs. the JBL M2? notnyt stated the M2 is far ahead in terms of technology but wanted to get some more opinions rolling.

Lastly, the SPL specs JBL states on their website is for the full operating frequency range of the M2, correct? If I cross them over at 80 Hz, the SPL capability will go up?

Quote:
Continuous/Peak [email protected] 1m 117 dB /123 dB; 108 dB Peak SPL @ 8m
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post #2964 of 4597 Old 06-04-2017, 04:58 AM
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Depending on how many amps you have, plus projector fan noise (if you are using a projector), you can end up with a high ambient noise level that ruins quiet passages in music or movies. I like a quiet room.

I used Meyer HD-1 studio monitors and PA gear for many years as a recording and live sound engineer. His stuff sounds good but I have not hear the Acheron. Looking at them and the specs, I think JBL is probably ahead of Meyer at this point. I have not seen any published frequency response graphs from Meyer. Specs don't look a s good as JBL. Meyer states frequency response of 38Hz -17kHz +/- 4 dB which is not nearly as ruler flat as the M2. The Meyer horn looks old school compared to the waveguide in the M2.
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post #2965 of 4597 Old 06-04-2017, 10:31 AM
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In that room I would go 708's and great subs. Pretty small to have 3 M2's, but, also, I get why you're not willing to listen to anyone on that either if you have the money to spend. The M2's are great.

As for the amps, get the drill out now. 25 feet wouldn't be enough distance.
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post #2966 of 4597 Old 06-04-2017, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
Depending on how many amps you have, plus projector fan noise (if you are using a projector), you can end up with a high ambient noise level that ruins quiet passages in music or movies. I like a quiet room.

I used Meyer HD-1 studio monitors and PA gear for many years as a recording and live sound engineer. His stuff sounds good but I have not hear the Acheron. Looking at them and the specs, I think JBL is probably ahead of Meyer at this point. I have not seen any published frequency response graphs from Meyer. Specs don't look a s good as JBL. Meyer states frequency response of 38Hz -17kHz +/- 4 dB which is not nearly as ruler flat as the M2. The Meyer horn looks old school compared to the waveguide in the M2.
Thanks.

The ambient noise level in my room is quite high with the central A/C on (roughly 50 dB). With the A/C off, it is dead silent. I often turn off the A/C when viewing movies unless it is really hot. Any idea how loud the fans in the iTech 5000HD and DCi 8|300 are?
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post #2967 of 4597 Old 06-04-2017, 11:10 AM
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Another quick question...

If I have three M2s for LCR powered by an iTech 5000HD each and eight SCS 8s for sides, backs, and ceilings powered by a DCi 8|300, will I be able to use a SDEC-4500P for a full JBL Synthesis calibration? I am asking because, if I am not mistaken, the iTech 5000HD and DCi 8|300 do not have BLU link.
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post #2968 of 4597 Old 06-04-2017, 02:55 PM
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Kain- SDEC4500 would work.

I like that you are aiming for identical LRC :-). If you are sticking with JBL, IMHO 708p will perform better in your room than your M2.

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post #2969 of 4597 Old 06-04-2017, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtwrace View Post
I just got news that my @Funk Audio (master/slave) 21.0LX subs will be shipping next week. They're playing through the weekend!
Congrats J- how low do M2s go in your room? With subs- you will kick-ass!

regards,
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post #2970 of 4597 Old 06-04-2017, 06:15 PM
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Kain- SDEC4500 would work.

I like that you are aiming for identical LRC :-). If you are sticking with JBL, IMHO 708p will perform better in your room than your M2.

Regards,
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