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post #31 of 50 Old 11-08-2013, 08:09 PM
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For OP,
I believe $3000 will cover for 5 GT piano black speakers.
GT's Freq range 40-27k hz.
In my experience, Gt speakers are good with all genre of music.
I've heard GT was very loud at studio size 38' x 40' x 17' hall. I am sure they sound loud enough at your med-size room.

“I would prefer bipole/dipole based on what I've read”
I don’t recommend for bipolar speaker for HT. Localization of sound is important in HT surround sound. You want to hear the left sound from left side. Not from right side! Bipolar speaker generates more reflective sound than regular speakers. The listener will get a headache more easily from listening bipolar speakers.

The sound travels appx. 1000ft./sec. The length of your room is 15ft~30ft. Every soundwaves from speakers bounce off walls/ceiling and hit your ears 15~20 times from every direction before the sound loses acoustic energy. If your room is not acoustically treated like movie theater, a listener hears more reflection sounds from walls and ceiling than sounds from speakers. You hear your room more than the concert hall in recordings Left sound, in the recording, could come from the right side. The brain has to process all reflected sounds from walls and ceiling and from 7 or 9 speakers. The listener will get headaches easily. I am talking about "Listeners Fatigue." I don’t recommend bipolar speakers for HT.

For HT, I recommend directional speakers. We don’t want too much dispersion for HT. We want to hear sounds from where the action is. Not from opposite side.
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post #32 of 50 Old 11-08-2013, 09:23 PM
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Hi Bill,
“utterly defy the laws of acoustics, and not by a small margin”
People act based on what they believe and know. So, I don't blame you. Hi-end audio is losing the war against Ipod and headphone because of persistent 100 years old ideas. Loudness is not only the game. Watts are cheap and loudness is easy to achieve. The quality of sound is what matters. The law of diminishing returns! To make 1% better than what is at the top is very difficult. And it is not the quantity!

“actual capability is 87dB sensitivity”
It’s 91. Not 87. You should ask before start to
http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-5-woofers/sb-acoustics-sb15nrxc30-4-5-woofer/
Do you think a 91db woofer and Wavetouch horns is impossible? GT is a horn speaker. “defy the laws of acoustics?” Right! GT speaker defies the laws of acoustics like a miracle!

“If that 'reviewer' had the slightest clue how speakers work”
Again! Please respect the reviewer as other profession. He has been in audio for 40 years. I believe he has been audio reviewer for 20 years. Currently, he is Sr. Editor among 17 reviewers in Stereo Times. Please don’t include the reviewer again!
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post #33 of 50 Old 11-08-2013, 09:28 PM
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Correction!

“actual capability is 87dB sensitivity”
It’s 91. Not 87.
http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-5-woofers/sb-acoustics-sb15nrxc30-4-5-woofer/
Do you think 94db from a 91db woofer and Wavetouch horns is impossible? GT is a horn and directional speaker. “defy the laws of acoustics?” Right! GT speaker defies the laws of acoustics like a miracle!
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post #34 of 50 Old 11-08-2013, 10:37 PM
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Have you looked at building your own speakers?

For around $1500-2000 you can have a nice high sensitivity 5 channel system.

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/waveguide-speaker-kits.html

You can get pre assembled crossovers and pre-cut enclosures with rabbeted joints so everything fits perfect.

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post #35 of 50 Old 11-09-2013, 01:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GIEGAR View Post


Slip 'o the tongue, Bill? Did you mean "goes deep"? (Loud and high sensitivity are analogous.)

In describing a real high sensitivity speaker, you have outlined the JTR lineup, ranging from 95dB/W/m single 8" to 101dB/W/m dual 12"; all with 70 - 80Hz extension.

The JTR Single 8HT is the ideal LCR speaker for the OP, but will push him beyond his stated budget for 5 speakers.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrkazador View Post

Have you looked at building your own speakers?

For around $1500-2000 you can have a nice high sensitivity 5 channel system.

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/waveguide-speaker-kits.html

You can get pre assembled crossovers and pre-cut enclosures with rabbeted joints so everything fits perfect.

 

You know, I looked at the website last week and I just don't feel like I'd be happy with something not built by professionals. Plus I suck at construction/painting/electronics. What would be the cost of a shop helping me out do you think?

Quote:
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Given the kind of speaker the OP is after, NHT is not the best choice. The highest sensitivity speaker NHT has available, the Classic Three, is stated as 87 db, and when Stereophile tested it it turned out to be only 83 dB. That is 180 degrees from where the OP wants to go.
If he's looking for real high sensitivity speakers this is how to identify them: They're big and they don't go very low, or if they do go low they're huge. Regarding the already mentioned Hoffman's Iron Law, it's a simple rule: Goes loud, is small, has high sensitivity. You may have two of those characteristics, any two, but you can't have all three. A real high sensitivity speaker will generally be loaded with eight to twelve inch woofers, often more than one, and still only extend to maybe 70Hz, because what you trade off to get high sensitivity is bass response. Not that it matters, because below 70Hz is subwoofer territory anyway.

Slip 'o the tongue, Bill? Did you mean "goes deep"? (Loud and high sensitivity are analogous.)

In describing a real high sensitivity speaker, you have outlined the JTR lineup, ranging from 95dB/W/m single 8" to 101dB/W/m dual 12"; all with 70 - 80Hz extension.

The JTR Single 8HT is the ideal LCR speaker for the OP, but will push him beyond his stated budget for 5 speakers.

 

This is all very helpful thanks! I'm actually thinking about pulling the trigger on JTR just because everything else seems like a compromise... I didn't need a new motorcycle anyways :(

This is going to sound dumb I'm sure, but how does the JTR reach such high range frequencies with just an 8" woofer and no tweeter? Am I missing something? 

Also, does anyone have a reccomendation for some cheap surrounds so I don't have to buy 5 JTRs and bust my budget wide open? 

 

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post #36 of 50 Old 11-09-2013, 01:09 AM
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Quote:
 You know, I looked at the website last week and I just don't feel like I'd be happy with something not built by professionals. Plus I suck at construction/painting/electronics. What would be the cost of a shop helping me out do you think?

 

If I had to take a wild guess of what it would cost to put everything together and painted, $200 per speaker... I have no idea really.

 

Quote:
 This is going to sound dumb I'm sure, but how does the JTR reach such high range frequencies with just an 8" woofer and no tweeter? Am I missing something? 

 

One of the woofers has a compression driver behind it which does the high freq. 

 

The JTR Triple 8 is equipped with two 8” woofers in a vented enclosure, combined with a sealed 8” midrange coaxial fitted with a 1” compression driver behind the acoustically transparent dust cover.

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post #37 of 50 Old 11-09-2013, 01:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Ah that makes sense. You'd think an internet savvy guy like me would have been able to find that out on my own....

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post #38 of 50 Old 11-09-2013, 04:55 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usaforce87 View Post

Also, does anyone have a reccomendation for some cheap surrounds so I don't have to buy 5 JTRs and bust my budget wide open?
usaforce87, I outlined a system using a JTR front stage and good surrounds in this post here that wouldn't go much over your budget.
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post #39 of 50 Old 11-09-2013, 06:25 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deepbass9 View Post

Hi Bill,
“utterly defy the laws of acoustics, and not by a small margin”
People act based on what they believe and know. So, I don't blame you. Hi-end audio is losing the war against Ipod and headphone because of persistent 100 years old ideas. Loudness is not only the game. Watts are cheap and loudness is easy to achieve. The quality of sound is what matters. The law of diminishing returns! To make 1% better than what is at the top is very difficult. And it is not the quantity!
“actual capability is 87dB sensitivity”
It’s 91. Not 87. You should ask before start to
http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-5-woofers/sb-acoustics-sb15nrxc30-4-5-woofer/
Do you think a 91db woofer and Wavetouch horns is impossible? GT is a horn speaker. “defy the laws of acoustics?” Right! GT speaker defies the laws of acoustics like a miracle!
“If that 'reviewer' had the slightest clue how speakers work”
Again! Please respect the reviewer as other profession. He has been in audio for 40 years. I believe he has been audio reviewer for 20 years. Currently, he is Sr. Editor among 17 reviewers in Stereo Times. Please don’t include the reviewer again!
.
My data is correct. Sensitivity is 87dB. The link you showed is to a 4 ohm driver measured at 2.83v. 2.83v into 4 ohms is two watts. Just to be sure I software modeled the driver/box combination of the GT. Did you?
As for the reviewer's qualifications, I've been driving for 48 years. That does make me qualified to make a simple assessment of how a car rides and handles, but it does not make me an automotive engineer. My M.Eng does make me an acoustical engineer.
The reviewer is entitled to express his subjective opinion about how those speakers sound to him, but without actually measuring them himself all he's doing is parroting the manufacturer's false claims of their frequency response and sensitivity.
The GT is not a horn loaded speaker. One does not have to be an acoustical engineer to know that a horn is a quarter-wavelength device. That makes a horn capable of 40Hz response at least seven feet long. Horns also have throat areas smaller than the diaphragm, not larger. The salad bowls on the GT will result in no gain.
Quote:
Slip 'o the tongue, Bill? Did you mean "goes deep"? (Loud and high sensitivity are analogous.)
I meant 'low'. I was close, both words start with 'L'. cool.gif
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post #40 of 50 Old 11-09-2013, 06:35 AM - Thread Starter
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I think I may be going the DIY route once I get my hundreds of questions answered on Monday by the DIY sound group guys.

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post #41 of 50 Old 11-09-2013, 07:44 AM
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Bill,
Please read the specification carefully. Arguing with you is pointless.

“Parroting” You certainly know how to insult other people. Know what you are doing! You are just degrading yourself.

Please read my previous posts. I don’t want to rewrite. How old are those ideas? I see Wavetouch horns seem nothing like old ones. It’s hard to break the shell and see outside.

I am done with this thread! More arguing with you will bring more posts with naming and insulting people which dirtying this forum.
.
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post #42 of 50 Old 05-23-2014, 09:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deepbass9 View Post

For OP,
I believe $3000 will cover for 5 GT piano black speakers.
GT's Freq range 40-27k hz.
In my experience, Gt speakers are good with all genre of music.
I've heard GT was very loud at studio size 38' x 40' x 17' hall. I am sure they sound loud enough at your med-size room.

“I would prefer bipole/dipole based on what I've read”
I don’t recommend for bipolar speaker for HT. Localization of sound is important in HT surround sound. You want to hear the left sound from left side. Not from right side! Bipolar speaker generates more reflective sound than regular speakers. The listener will get a headache more easily from listening bipolar speakers.

The sound travels appx. 1000ft./sec. The length of your room is 15ft~30ft. Every soundwaves from speakers bounce off walls/ceiling and hit your ears 15~20 times from every direction before the sound loses acoustic energy. If your room is not acoustically treated like movie theater, a listener hears more reflection sounds from walls and ceiling than sounds from speakers. You hear your room more than the concert hall in recordings Left sound, in the recording, could come from the right side. The brain has to process all reflected sounds from walls and ceiling and from 7 or 9 speakers. The listener will get headaches easily. I am talking about "Listeners Fatigue." I don’t recommend bipolar speakers for HT.

For HT, I recommend directional speakers. We don’t want too much dispersion for HT. We want to hear sounds from where the action is. Not from opposite side.
.

 

Without a doubt the GT's are simply incredible - you will be amazed at their sound.  You "sound engineers" can forget everything you ever learned about the physics of sound - none of that BS applies in the case of the GT's.  I proved it to myself... and... now I'm a believer.  You will be too!

 

https://www.avsforum.com/t/1484572/wavetouch-audio-grand-teton-monitors#post_24753957

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post #43 of 50 Old 05-24-2014, 05:44 AM
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Oh... go on... try 'em... you will love them... "I garuntee!"  You will be amazed, just as I have been.  

 

I was a skeptic too... until yesterday... now... "I'm a believer."  I was prepared (and expected) to be sending them back today to get my refund.  But that will not be happening - the GT's are staying... and... a lot of my other's will be going... not that they all sound bad... they don't, the sound superb too... but... the GT's just sound better, when they don't look like the should, or could.

 

Go on... you have nothing to lose... but, your misconceptions and biases, just as me - "I triple dog dare ya!"  If you do... or, is that "when" you do, you'll be thanking me!

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post #44 of 50 Old 05-24-2014, 06:33 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GIEGAR View Post

The BS is only coming from one place 'round here.
Oddly enough we had deepbass 9 show up here, make 10 posts praising these things, and nothing else, to never be heard from again. I guess that means we can expect 'gradofan' will make 6 more posts about them before he too goes on hiatus? rolleyes.gif
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post #45 of 50 Old 05-24-2014, 08:09 AM
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That is not it at all... 

 

AVS is not a major forum... it is not frequented by many... I spend most of my time on the other more popular forums (when I have time) (e.g. Headfi, Audiogon, AudioAsylum, etc.) - I'm not into HT stuff, never will be.  

 

I only posted here, because I happened to "run across" the threads on WaveTouch GT's via Google Search.  And, because I found most of the posts on those threads to be by a few uninformed folks who have never heard them - which included myself... until... yesterday.  

 

Now that I am informed and have heard them - I thought I'd share my incredible experience with other's who are similarly skeptical, who appreciate really exceptional, unbelieveably good sound - which the GT's produce.  So exceptional... that... it is simply stunning.  Looking at them sitting across the room from me next to my 5 other sets of grand and glorius speakers (quite literally) - looking so crude and tiny - I still can't believe the superb sound they produce, which excels above the others in most all respects.  

 

Once again... they are not "pretty" - I will spend a bit of time "prettying them up" (finishing the wood with Formby's Tung Oil finish) - which will make them look much better... but... even then, they will not have the physical beauty of almost any other speakers.  But... I don't care... their sound so excells that it makes me tollerate their appearance.  

 

So... yes... I, no doubt, will eventually return to my usual forums... but... for no other reason than those above.

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post #46 of 50 Old 05-24-2014, 12:25 PM
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AVS is not a major forum? Enlighten us to the ones that are please. I apparently have been wasting my time here. I just assumed that since many of the ID speaker companies have representatives interacting with customers (including many owners/founders) that this was the place to get information on their products. I tend to place less value on the opinions of someone who has had their "great" speakers for a day than those who design and build their own products.
BTW trying to go toe to toe with Bill Fitz will get you nowhere around here. Most that frequent this forum realize that even though he has his own forum, his time spent here helping others and passing on his wisdom and experience is a gift to all of us. He is one of the most respected posters around AVS.
I for one am willing to wait until I hear from someone who attends The Show in Newport next week. I would love to get an unbiased opinion on these speakers from an attendee or two instead of just taking your word for it.
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post #47 of 50 Old 05-24-2014, 12:50 PM
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Founded in 1999 by David Bott and Alan Gouger, AVSForum.com is the largest discussion forum dedicated to Home Theater, cinema, and the products used with over one million members, 1.3 million threads, and 22 million posts.

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post #48 of 50 Old 05-24-2014, 01:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Gradofan wrote:
AVS is not a major forum... it is not frequented by many... I spend most of my time on the other more popular forums (when I have time) (e.g. Headfi, Audiogon, AudioAsylum, etc.) - I'm not into HT stuff, never will be.

I'm a member on all those forums ( they are fine) I visit them occasionally but not as much since I joined AVS this is the big daddy of AV science forums and there is much to be learned here beyond and in addition to H.T.
Lots of prominent experts in their fields like Bill Fitz and Arny Kruger right here and others freely contribute here you never know just who you might be having a discussion with ? or how much they they know that you don't.......... eek.gif ............................. Don't ask me how I know this biggrin.gif


Coulden't help but laugh about the Grand Tetons reference to the x over having no printed circuit I guess brown craft paper ,MDF (or whatever it is ) and glue is cheaper than having PC boards made it must be hard to invent selling points or features and benifits valid or not . biggrin.gif
I just cant get my head around that as being a benefit or the other claims as well.
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post #49 of 50 Old 05-24-2014, 01:51 PM
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So, to get back to the subject at hand, have you looked into the HSU line of speakers? They are horns, are quite efficient, will go loud and, as bookshelf speakers, will push a good amount of mid-bass without impinging upon the realm of your sub.

You might also look at Golden Ear. The 7s have garnered much praise without internally powered subs. FYI, these are the same guys who once owned Def Tech, and probably designed the speakers you were originally going to purchase.

It's a VIRTUAL channel unless stated otherwise.
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post #50 of 50 Old 05-24-2014, 02:07 PM
 
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Here is a review of the JBL 3677 LRC probably a great cinema speaker with lots of mid bass punch not so sure about home use unless you have a large dedicated home theater. HSU's are supposed to be good .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pvBC0msHUQ
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