Subwoofer needed with floor standing speakers?? - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 141 Old 02-23-2014, 02:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, and watch Futureshop for deals. Sometimes they run good specials, and you might find a good opportunity that fits your budget. Might find something that makes you ready to buy.

I do watch for those deals but you guys here seem to think that anything from a "big box" store is junk. At least audio stuff anyway. Lots of bashing going on this site against brands like Polk, Bose and Sony to name a few. The stereo I'm using is a Sony and the sound is great but I'd still like to upgrade if possible. But anyways thanks for all the help.

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post #62 of 141 Old 02-23-2014, 02:13 PM
 
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Well Bose is utter over priced garbage, so that's understandable.

I could put together a system for £600 which'll utterly decimate the £3500 Bose system.
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post #63 of 141 Old 02-23-2014, 02:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Well Bose is utter over priced garbage, so that's understandable.

I could put together a system for £600 which'll utterly decimate the £3500 Bose system.

Maybe so. I'm sure their are better systems out there than Bose. But I do have Bose Companion speakers for my laptop and they sound great.

Also I may have found an interesting way around the upconverting issue with the Yamaha receiver mentioned above. All I'd have to do is get a component to HDMI converter and that would free up the combined component/composite input on my TV. I can then use it for a VCR and run the audio for the VCR from the TV to the receiver. Also I'd run the HDMI out from the converter to the receiver as well as the blu-ray HDMI and then one HDMI from there to the TV. Does that make sense? It's an interesting way to do it but it seems like it would work.

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post #64 of 141 Old 02-23-2014, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Canuck31 View Post

I do watch for those deals but you guys here seem to think that anything from a "big box" store is junk. At least audio stuff anyway. Lots of bashing going on this site against brands like Polk, Bose and Sony to name a few. The stereo I'm using is a Sony and the sound is great but I'd still like to upgrade if possible. But anyways thanks for all the help.
Lots of people here like Polk. B&M brands are not always as recommended because you pay the added cost of the retailer between you and manufacturer. Used is a very good option but depends on what is available.

I'd get bookshelves/standmounts and see if that work a for you. You can add the sub later if you don't feel it goes low enough. You may want to take a look at Ascend Acoustic speakers as I believe they have distributors in Canada. Not sure what import cost would be like but HTD and Arx make excellent towers and I assume the bookshelves are similarly good.

Have you thought about DIY? It is an excellent choice for subs from what I read. There are some kits that are well liked. You don't have to design just build/buy cabinets and install the components. Example
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post #65 of 141 Old 02-23-2014, 03:30 PM
 
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I saw a pair of Energy Take 5's going for something like £150 including the sub. Can't moan at that.
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post #66 of 141 Old 02-23-2014, 03:45 PM - Thread Starter
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I saw a pair of Energy Take 5's going for something like £150 including the sub. Can't moan at that.

You mean something like these?? http://ottawa.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell-electronics-Energy-Speakers-bookshelf-or-home-theatre-W0QQAdIdZ554567585

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post #67 of 141 Old 02-23-2014, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Canuck31 View Post

I do watch for those deals but you guys here seem to think that anything from a "big box" store is junk. At least audio stuff anyway. Lots of bashing going on this site against brands like Polk, Bose and Sony to name a few. The stereo I'm using is a Sony and the sound is great but I'd still like to upgrade if possible. But anyways thanks for all the help.

As MarsianMan pointed out, Polk is a very popular brand here on AVS. Although with any popular brand, some product models are better than others. There is very good reason why Bose catches flack. Bose is way overpriced for what you get for home audio setups, and it doesn't even perform well (there is plenty written on this if you search that explains why); 99% of those people who have good experience with a variety of audio equipment will tell you it's always possible to get something better than Bose for major audio setups, typically for a good bit less money. As for Sony, they have been hit and miss with the quality of their receivers over the years in comparison to other major brands. As for their speakers, they don't even make a center channel to go with them for home theater use.

The thing is, if you don't want to learn from what people are trying to tell you here, but instead make purchasing decisions based on your own assumptions, then you might as well go do this on your own. However, if you are open to learning, then don't be so quick to assume that people here don't have very good reasons for why they recommend one product over another or recommend avoiding a certain brand. AVS stands for Audio Video Science. When you find a consensus from multiple members here about a product or what to buy, it's almost based on sound reasoning about home audio and knowledge of products, which can be different from what consumer marketing has told you to value.
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post #68 of 141 Old 02-23-2014, 05:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

As MarsianMan pointed out, Polk is a very popular brand here on AVS. Although with any popular brand, some product models are better than others. There is very good reason why Bose catches flack. Bose is way overpriced for what you get for home audio setups, and it doesn't even perform well (there is plenty written on this if you search that explains why); 99% of those people who have good experience with a variety of audio equipment will tell you it's always possible to get something better than Bose for major audio setups, typically for a good bit less money. As for Sony, they have been hit and miss with the quality of their receivers over the years in comparison to other major brands. As for their speakers, they don't even make a center channel to go with them for home theater use.

The thing is, if you don't want to learn from what people are trying to tell you here, but instead make purchasing decisions based on your own assumptions, then you might as well go do this on your own. However, if you are open to learning, then don't be so quick to assume that people here don't have very good reasons for why they recommend one product over another or recommend avoiding a certain brand. AVS stands for Audio Video Science. When you find a consensus from multiple members here about a product or what to buy, it's almost based on sound reasoning about home audio and knowledge of products, which can be different from what consumer marketing has told you to value.

Well I'm not trying to be an ass. I understand that many people have brand loyalty. I do as well. I for one am an Apple Computer user and have been for years. I'd never buy a Windows PC. I've used Windows tons of times over the years. Especially during high school. I never liked it. I've always thought Apple was and is better. … As for Bose. Are they overpriced? Yes I will agree to that. But I had a Bose surround sound in my house growing up and to me it sounded amazing. But I still can't justify paying the price they ask. … Anyway I just think that if a product is getting overall great reviews from users then it must be a good product. The Polk PSW10 seems to have overall great reviews. Is there better out there? Sure there is but not everyone can afford that.

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post #69 of 141 Old 02-23-2014, 06:37 PM
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There's no reason to ever think about buying a Bose home theater setup. Take any Bose Acoustimass model, spend %75 of its cost on a Polk Audio setup, and 9 out of 10 people will end up agreeing that the Polk setup sounds better, and the audio science backs up that it should. Plus, Bose Acoustimass never goes on significant sale. Catch a good speaker set at a discount, and you can build a better quality home theater setup for even less money.

As for the PSW10, we can explain to you in scientific terms why the PSW10 is not really a good choice for a home theater setup, but you have to move beyond your bias toward the user testimonials before that's even worth doing. If you want to buy a setup based on Amazon reviews, then just go do that. No sense in discussing it here.

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post #70 of 141 Old 02-23-2014, 06:43 PM
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I have put my Polk RM6750 head to head against my old roommate Bose AcouticaMass 10 speaker set and everyone who heard the comparison agreed that the Polk was the best sounding. Funny though when we disclosed the price people were even more shocked. Bos has a great marketing campaign, my father has bought into it and has almost everything Bose. But even he admits my noise canceling headphones from Sennheiser are better.

Given what you currently have a the Polk RM6750 if in your budget is a great deal and a great starting point for upgrades in the future.
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post #71 of 141 Old 02-23-2014, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by crazyrob425 View Post

I have put my Polk RM6750 head to head against my old roommate Bose AcouticaMass 10 speaker set and everyone who heard the comparison agreed that the Polk was the best sounding. Funny though when we disclosed the price people were even more shocked. Bos has a great marketing campaign, my father has bought into it and has almost everything Bose. But even he admits my noise canceling headphones from Sennheiser are better..

My aunt had one of the top Acoustimass surround sets. Every time I would go to her house, the front sound stage was so bad, and male voices would sometimes come out of the bass module, that I wished for just my front two speakers in my home system (no sub, no center, no surrounds), which cost way less.

My dad was convinced he should buy Bose because of my aunt's system, and I managed to talk him into a Klipsch Synergy set for less money than Acoustimass. Sounded much better. I was so glad I was able to talk him out of it.

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post #72 of 141 Old 02-23-2014, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

As for the PSW10, we can explain to you in scientific terms why the PSW10 is not really a good choice for a home theater setup, but you have to move beyond your bias toward the user testimonials before that's even worth doing. If you want to buy a setup based on Amazon reviews, then just go do that. No sense in discussing it here.

Sometimes people have already made up their mind - and just want someone to agree.

My answer is the same - if you want it, then buy it - a lot of reviews on Amazon are from
first time buyers.

Bose can sound OK, untill you compare it with something else

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post #73 of 141 Old 02-24-2014, 02:00 AM
 
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post #74 of 141 Old 02-24-2014, 02:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

There's no reason to ever think about buying a Bose home theater setup. Take any Bose Acoustimass model, spend %75 of its cost on a Polk Audio setup, and 9 out of 10 people will end up agreeing that the Polk setup sounds better, and the audio science backs up that it should. Plus, Bose Acoustimass never goes on significant sale. Catch a good speaker set at a discount, and you can build a better quality home theater setup for even less money.

As for the PSW10, we can explain to you in scientific terms why the PSW10 is not really a good choice for a home theater setup, but you have to move beyond your bias toward the user testimonials before that's even worth doing. If you want to buy a setup based on Amazon reviews, then just go do that. No sense in discussing it here.

Okay so why is the PSW10 not a good sub?? If you can explain that without being to technical then lets here it. If there is a better one to be had at either Best Buy or Future Shop Canada websites please show me.

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post #75 of 141 Old 02-24-2014, 02:31 AM - Thread Starter
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There's only 4 speakers there and no sub. Maybe this is the similar version from them. http://www.futureshop.ca/en-CA/product/energy-energy-take-classic-ii-5-1-speaker-system-6-speakers-take-classic-ii/10151145.aspx?path=4e77ac193099109ed134cc86edff58feen02

This just came up on Kijiji. Good deal?? http://ottawa.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell-electronics-New-never-used-Yamaha-RX-V765-7-1-home-theater-receiver-W0QQAdIdZ569278484

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post #76 of 141 Old 02-24-2014, 02:35 AM
 
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10", 100W amp, 35hz low bass response. That's quite poor.

35hz would result in quite boomy low end. A system with a cheap low quality subwoofer will sound worse than no sub at all. Save up, get a second hand SVS SB and you'll be glad you did, rather than buying a boomy fart box.

The one I bought only cost £25 and I would regret it if I paid the full price. The one I have has frequency response of 30hz. And it's still terrible.
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post #77 of 141 Old 02-24-2014, 02:36 AM
 
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There's only 4 speakers there and no sub. Maybe this is the similar version from them. http://www.futureshop.ca/en-CA/product/energy-energy-take-classic-ii-5-1-speaker-system-6-speakers-take-classic-ii/10151145.aspx?path=4e77ac193099109ed134cc86edff58feen02

Not that exact listing, but the same type of speakers. £170, for all 5 speakers, and the subwoofer.
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post #78 of 141 Old 02-24-2014, 05:02 AM - Thread Starter
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10", 100W amp, 35hz low bass response. That's quite poor.

35hz would result in quite boomy low end. A system with a cheap low quality subwoofer will sound worse than no sub at all. Save up, get a second hand SVS SB and you'll be glad you did, rather than buying a boomy fart box.

The one I bought only cost £25 and I would regret it if I paid the full price. The one I have has frequency response of 30hz. And it's still terrible.

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Not that exact listing, but the same type of speakers. £170, for all 5 speakers, and the subwoofer.

You mean like one of these?? http://www.svsound.com/subwoofers/sealed-box/SB-1000#.Uws0Jf3HP8s

So what Energy surround set are you referring to? Would that set I mentioned not be a good option?

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post #79 of 141 Old 02-24-2014, 05:12 AM
 
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Yes that SVS SB1000 is a good, quality subwoofer, worth saving up rather buying something like my Yamaha.

Or something like this, you need composite to HDMI scaling so you must go for the 675.

http://www.creative-audio.co.uk/HD.php?_YAM_675_WHF_DX1HCP_51_&CAT=HCSYS&ID=6934&ns=

That Wharfedale sub won't be as good as that SVS of course, but you could buy a 5.0 speaker package then add the SVS later.
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post #80 of 141 Old 02-24-2014, 05:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes that SVS SB1000 is a good, quality subwoofer, worth saving up rather buying something like my Yamaha.

Or something like this, you need composite to HDMI scaling so you must go for the 675.

http://www.creative-audio.co.uk/HD.php?_YAM_675_WHF_DX1HCP_51_&CAT=HCSYS&ID=6934&ns=

That Wharfedale sub won't be as good as that SVS of course, but you could buy a 5.0 speaker package then add the SVS later.

Well I could get Wharfedale over here but there's no local store that carries them that I can see. http://wharfedale-canada.com/products/

But what about this receiver I mentioned a few posts ago. It seems to upscale. http://ottawa.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell-electronics-New-never-used-Yamaha-RX-V765-7-1-home-theater-receiver-W0QQAdIdZ569278484

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post #81 of 141 Old 02-24-2014, 06:38 AM
 
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I don't know enough about scalers to say, but that looks like quite a old model, whether it has HDMI or scaling compatibility...

http://hometheaterreview.com/yamaha-rx-v765-home-theater-receiver-reviewed/
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post #82 of 141 Old 02-24-2014, 11:21 AM
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With the Energy Take Classic 5.1 its a great set-up.

Energy Take Classic 5.1 is a better speaker set than the Polk RM6750 5.1. The RM6750 is a great 5.1 set up for under $200 usd
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post #83 of 141 Old 02-24-2014, 11:40 AM
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Okay so why is the PSW10 not a good sub?? If you can explain that without being to technical then lets here it. If there is a better one to be had at either Best Buy or Future Shop Canada websites please show me.

The purpose of a sub is to produce better bass than your speakers, right?

According to Polk, the PSW10 has a -3db of 40hz, which means it's starting to roll off in bass very high for a sub. Many towers can extend that deep.

Then there is output. As FB mentioned, the PSW10 is only 50 watts RMS with a cheap 10" driver. Typically you need a more powerful amp to produce good bass, and only 50 watts and that driver means it doesn't have a lot of output. I've seen testimonials about this--that the PSW10 offered nothing to people's towers in terms of lower bass nor extra output. So it could easily be a waste with towers.

Very cheap subs tend to have poor transient response and lots of harmonic distortion. They tend to be one note wonders--for example, all guitar bass notes will sound the same--and/or have muddy bass--the bass notes are very blurry, slurred together. It costs money to make a sub that doesn't have those flaws.

Finally, the PSW10 often sells for around $100 with free shipping, which tells us that there is likely some profit built into that still for retailers, even if just a little. With a sub, you are paying for a very big driver and a big enclosure--which costs some money to make in materials--AND an amplifier that has to be part of the cost. Then note that the PSW10 has a 30 lb shipping weight and ships in a big box--expensive to ship. So if you buy say a $200 pair of passive bookshelf speakers (they don't have an amplifier included) that are a good value, there's no way you are getting the same quality product out of the PSW10.
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post #84 of 141 Old 02-24-2014, 05:47 PM - Thread Starter
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With the Energy Take Classic 5.1 its a great set-up.

Energy Take Classic 5.1 is a better speaker set than the Polk RM6750 5.1. The RM6750 is a great 5.1 set up for under $200 usd

Well what about this set and add a sub. http://www.futureshop.ca/en-CA/product/energy-energy-5-0-surround-speaker-system-ps500b-5-speakers-ps500b/10174584.aspx?path=9852dcc0364332eeb23fab5b1e7f2507en02

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The purpose of a sub is to produce better bass than your speakers, right?

According to Polk, the PSW10 has a -3db of 40hz, which means it's starting to roll off in bass very high for a sub. Many towers can extend that deep.

Then there is output. As FB mentioned, the PSW10 is only 50 watts RMS with a cheap 10" driver. Typically you need a more powerful amp to produce good bass, and only 50 watts and that driver means it doesn't have a lot of output. I've seen testimonials about this--that the PSW10 offered nothing to people's towers in terms of lower bass nor extra output. So it could easily be a waste with towers.

Very cheap subs tend to have poor transient response and lots of harmonic distortion. They tend to be one note wonders--for example, all guitar bass notes will sound the same--and/or have muddy bass--the bass notes are very blurry, slurred together. It costs money to make a sub that doesn't have those flaws.

Finally, the PSW10 often sells for around $100 with free shipping, which tells us that there is likely some profit built into that still for retailers, even if just a little. With a sub, you are paying for a very big driver and a big enclosure--which costs some money to make in materials--AND an amplifier that has to be part of the cost. Then note that the PSW10 has a 30 lb shipping weight and ships in a big box--expensive to ship. So if you buy say a $200 pair of passive bookshelf speakers (they don't have an amplifier included) that are a good value, there's no way you are getting the same quality product out of the PSW10.

What do you mean it starts to "roll off in bass"?

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post #85 of 141 Old 02-24-2014, 05:50 PM
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What do you mean it starts to "roll off in bass"?

Speakers and subs just don't go to a certain low frequency response and stop abruptly at producing sound. At some point, they start "rolling off"--decreasing in the amount of bass that they produce until eventually they don't any more as you go to lower frequencies. It's a gradual thing, although some speakers are more gradual than others in how the bass drops off.

Your questions are answered: Speaker FAQ
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post #86 of 141 Old 02-24-2014, 06:09 PM
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For your budget its a great setup, especially if you have a subwoofer with it.
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post #87 of 141 Old 02-24-2014, 06:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Speakers and subs just don't go to a certain low frequency response and stop abruptly at producing sound. At some point, they start "rolling off"--decreasing in the amount of bass that they produce until eventually they don't any more as you go to lower frequencies. It's a gradual thing, although some speakers are more gradual than others in how the bass drops off.

Oh okay. Interesting. So the lower the frequency the better??
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For your budget its a great setup, especially if you have a subwoofer with it.

Well what about this sub?? http://www.futureshop.ca/en-ca/product/energy-energy-12-150-watt-powered-subwoofer-power12/10215307.aspx?path=e466952f3fd562af3121b8151bfc8432en02

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post #88 of 141 Old 02-24-2014, 06:17 PM
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Oh okay. Interesting. So the lower the frequency the better??

Yep. For music, down into the low 30s can be good. For movies, lots of special effects down lower, so somewhere into the low 20s is more optimal.

Your questions are answered: Speaker FAQ
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post #89 of 141 Old 02-24-2014, 06:33 PM - Thread Starter
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What about these for floor standing speakers? http://ottawa.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell-electronics-Energy-C-500-Floor-Standing-Speakers-Black-Ash-W0QQAdIdZ555732253

Also does Polk make and good floor standing or bookshelf speakers or should I avoid those as well?

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post #90 of 141 Old 02-24-2014, 06:38 PM
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Yeah that is a decemt subwoofer and about 5 times better than the PSW10
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What about these for floor standing speakers? http://ottawa.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell-electronics-Energy-C-500-Floor-Standing-Speakers-Black-Ash-W0QQAdIdZ555732253

Also does Polk make and good floor standing or bookshelf speakers or should I avoid those as well?
Those towers work but they will eat into your budget and then you will have to find a matching center for them which might be hard.

Polk does make some good speakers, just not good subwoofers
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