Subwoofer needed with floor standing speakers?? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 141 Old 02-22-2014, 05:31 PM - Thread Starter
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So I'm interested in getting these speakers. http://ottawa.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell-electronics-Polk-Audio-R30-W0QQAdIdZ560035251

My "home theatre" is in a fairly small room. Likely no more than 20' x 15'. I'm looking to get the speakers above plus an amp or receiver of some kind. All I'm really wanting is either a 2.0 or 2.1 speaker set up. So I'm wondering if floor standing speakers would be better paired with a sub or would they be good on their own??

If instead I go with bookshelf speakers I'm looking at either of these:
http://www.futureshop.ca/en-ca/product/polk-audio-polk-audio-t15-bookshelf-speakers-black-pair-t15/10270588.aspx?path=f4d4c18c8447633931eb5d0cb4394508en02

http://www.futureshop.ca/en-CA/product/polk-audio-polk-audio-bookshelf-speakers-r150-r150/10129113.aspx?path=cbf53e1b692b06f5880234bde200bad0en02

And the sub I'm looking at is this one:
http://www.bestbuy.ca/en-CA/product/polk-audio-polk-audio-10-100-watt-powered-subwoofer-psw10-psw10/10053785.aspx?path=04d2b63463e6d90c41db36215f3332b8en02

Right now I'm using this stereo for my "home theatre" - http://ontario.kijiji.ca/c-ViewAdLargeImage?AdId=565693287

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

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post #2 of 141 Old 02-22-2014, 05:43 PM
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That stereo does NOT support 5.1 so its not a home theater. So you need to find a 5.1 receiver. Those speakers would work though/ You'll need a center channel though

Whats yours total budget in Canadian dollars?
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post #3 of 141 Old 02-22-2014, 05:53 PM
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Usually people on here are recommended away from Polk subs (for the money). Maybe a BIC F12 at the same price.

I'm not a Polk person so I'll leave those for others to comment on.
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post #4 of 141 Old 02-22-2014, 06:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by crazyrob425 View Post

That stereo does NOT support 5.1 so its not a home theater. So you need to find a 5.1 receiver. Those speakers would work though/ You'll need a center channel though

Whats yours total budget in Canadian dollars?

I know. Hence why I put home theatre in quotations. Why would you suggest a centre channel? Are you saying a 3.1 set up would be better? If I can keep it at $800 or under that would be best. I try to look for deals and used stuff on Kijiji and such. Someone else suggested a BIC F12 sub. I've never heard of it before and have never seen it anywhere. The Polk sub I mentioned above seems to have great reviews.

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post #5 of 141 Old 02-22-2014, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Canuck31 View Post

I know. Hence why I put home theatre in quotations. Why would you suggest a centre channel? Are you saying a 3.1 set up would be better? If I can keep it at $800 or under that would be best. I try to look for deals and used stuff on Kijiji and such. Someone else suggested a BIC F12 sub. I've never heard of it before and have never seen it anywhere. The Polk sub I mentioned above seems to have great reviews.
Center channels are very important speakers as 70-90% of the font audio comes from the center channel

The Bic F12 is a huge step up over the Polk PSW10. The PSW10 is a huge compromise in terms of performance and not worth more than $50. If you can find a Bic F12 in your budget run to it

Here are some recievers to look at
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882117434
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882105726
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post #6 of 141 Old 02-22-2014, 06:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by crazyrob425 View Post

Center channels are very important speakers as 70-90% of the font audio comes from the center channel

The Bic F12 is a huge step up over the Polk PSW10. The PSW10 is a huge compromise in terms of performance and not worth more than $50. If you can find a Bic F12 in your budget run to it

Here are some recievers to look at
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882117434
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882105726

Well Amazon seems like the only place I can get one for a half decent price. http://www.amazon.com/BIC-America-F12-475-Watt-Subwoofer/dp/B0015A8Y5M/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1393119105&sr=8-1&keywords=Bic+F12

475 watts seems like a lot. I wouldn't want to get evicted from my apartment. LOL I live with roommates right now and even they told me to "turn it down" one evening using the stereo I have mentioned above. So the BIC F12 seems like overkill.

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post #7 of 141 Old 02-22-2014, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Canuck31 View Post

475 watts seems like a lot. I wouldn't want to get evicted from my apartment. LOL I live with roommates right now and even they told me to "turn it down" one evening using the stereo I have mentioned above. So the BIC F12 seems like overkill.

"Seems like overkill" based upon what understanding of subwoofers that you have? I'm not trying to be a jerk, just pointing out that people here are making recommendations based upon understanding a lot about HT setups, and you are still learning.

For instance, you need to know that subs generally require more power than speakers in an HT setup. And the BIC F12 is 475 watt peak, but it's only 150 watts RMS. Besides, doesn't matter if the sub ends up having more power than you need. You set the gain (volume) on the sub to integrate into your setup well. On the other hand, if you get a cheap sub that's not enough for your space and over drive it, you could eventually tear it up. Finally, the PSW10 is just not that good of a sub. I would be inclined to do without a sub and put money toward getting tower speakers over getting the PSW10, if it were my only choice.

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post #8 of 141 Old 02-22-2014, 09:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

"Seems like overkill" based upon what understanding of subwoofers that you have? I'm not trying to be a jerk, just pointing out that people here are making recommendations based upon understanding a lot about HT setups, and you are still learning.

For instance, you need to know that subs generally require more power than speakers in an HT setup. And the BIC F12 is 475 watt peak, but it's only 150 watts RMS. Besides, doesn't matter if the sub ends up having more power than you need. You set the gain (volume) on the sub to integrate into your setup well. On the other hand, if you get a cheap sub that's not enough for your space and over drive it, you could eventually tear it up. Finally, the PSW10 is just not that good of a sub. I would be inclined to do without a sub and put money toward getting tower speakers over getting the PSW10, if it were my only choice.

Well that's kind of my initial question. If I get floor standing (tower) speakers do I even need a sub? I can't exactly pick up a BIC F12 from my local Best Buy or Future Shop. I also figured that if I were getting Polk speakers to pair them with a Polk sub. Makes sense to me.

Also if you're "not trying to be a jerk" you sure fooled me. I don't care how much people know about a given topic. Politeness, respect and humility go along way. Thanks for your time.

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post #9 of 141 Old 02-22-2014, 09:57 PM
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Well that's kind of my initial question. If I get floor standing (tower) speakers do I even need a sub? I can't exactly pick up a BIC F12 from my local Best Buy or Future Shop. I also figured that if I were getting Polk speakers to pair them with a Polk sub. Makes sense to me.

It's not really about loudness with a sub, but quality of bass. I mean loudness is still important obviously. As far as matching subs and speakers, people say it's not important. I can't really hear a timbre with a sub, but that might be my inexperience. My (poor) analogy would be, just because they make a Honda-branded car phone charger doesn't mean you need to use that over any other brand.

I can't remember if you stated what it will be used for, but movies and surprisingly (at least to me) even TV use lots of bass as dramatic effect. My bookshelves go down to the 40s which I find acceptable for night viewing but lacking for "movie nights". If you are doing primarily music you would probably okay without a sub. Most music does not dig that deep. It all depends on the type of music you listen to.

Tl;dr: HT = yes; music = maybe.
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It's not really about loudness with a sub, but quality of bass. I mean loudness is still important obviously. As far as matching subs and speakers, people say it's not important. I can't really hear a timbre with a sub, but that might be my inexperience. My (poor) analogy would be, just because they make a Honda-branded car phone charger doesn't mean you need to use that over any other brand.

I can't remember if you stated what it will be used for, but movies and surprisingly (at least to me) even TV use lots of bass as dramatic effect. My bookshelves go down to the 40s which I find acceptable for night viewing but lacking for "movie nights". If you are doing primarily music you would probably okay without a sub. Most music does not dig that deep. It all depends on the type of music you listen to.

Tl;dr: HT = yes; music = maybe.

I'd be using mainly for movies but possibly music sometimes as well. Thing is even my current stereo (mentioned above) gets plenty loud and lots of base. Hence why I was asked to turn it down the other night cause of too much base. The stereo I have now does satisfy me with great sound even if the "surround" is virtual. It's just that the main stereo unit sits beside the TV stand as opposed to on one of it's shelf cause it can't fit. It would be much nicer to have floor standing (tower) speakers one on each side and a receiver in the stand. Looks more aesthetically pleasing. The base from the stereo I now have is plenty hence why I would not need a high powered sub. Even something like this would satisfy me. http://ottawa.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell-electronics-JVC-10-Active-Subwoofer-SXPW10600-W0QQAdIdZ540710237

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post #11 of 141 Old 02-22-2014, 10:34 PM
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I feel like better bass does not need to be as loud because it has more audible clarity at lower volume. It also sounds tighter and better. Err, better bass is better by definition; I guess that is redundant. tongue.gif You will definitely miss out on the inaudible effect (<20? Hz) that is present in HT without a true subwoofer.

Why can't you put the bookshelves in the same spot as the tower but on stands?

For what it's worth, I bought towers originally and then switched to bookshelves. Towers vs sub is just not the same HT experience by any means. Plus you can turn down a sub, hard to (easily) do that equivalent with towers. I usually turn off my sub at night for more neighbor-friendly viewing.

It sounds like you have your mind made up on towers. If you do then go with that as long as it makes you happy. In the end, it's your ears, money and journey.
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I feel like better bass does not need to be as loud because it has more audible clarity at lower volume. It also sounds tighter and better. Err, better bass is better by definition; I guess that is redundant. tongue.gif You will definitely miss out on the inaudible effect (<20? Hz) that is present in HT without a true subwoofer.

Why can't you put the bookshelves in the same spot as the tower but on stands?

For what it's worth, I bought towers originally and then switched to bookshelves. Towers vs sub is just not the same HT experience by any means. Plus you can turn down a sub, hard to (easily) do that equivalent with towers. I usually turn off my sub at night for more neighbor-friendly viewing.

It sounds like you have your mind made up on towers. If you do then go with that as long as it makes you happy. In the end, it's your ears, money and journey.

Well I don't mind going with bookshelf speakers as long as they are good (yet still budget) quality. Like the two I suggested in my OP. If I get bookshelf and a sub I'm okay with that as well. I just don't need 5.1 or 7.1 surround. A 2.1 set with bookshelf and sub would be fine with me as long I can find the right combo. I've actually always been on the fence with whether I ever wanted tower speakers or not. A number of years ago I had this set and the sound was great for the small one bedroom I was in at the time. http://ottawa.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell-electronics-FS-JVC-5-1-receiver-and-speakers-sub-W0QQAdIdZ569074253 I guess the look of tower speakers is growing on me. Either way I'd rather not have a full surround set as I don't want to deal with wires running around the room.

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Well that's kind of my initial question. If I get floor standing (tower) speakers do I even need a sub?

A good sub adds a lot to an HT setup, and it can negate the need for towers over bookshelves because the sub can produce the extra bass that the towers can. But a good sub goes a lot deeper than towers can.

The Polk PSW10 is not a very good sub, and it may not offer much advantage over going with towers.

Save for a good sub.
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A good sub adds a lot to an HT setup, and it can negate the need for towers over bookshelves because the sub can produce the extra bass that the towers can. But a good sub goes a lot deeper than towers can.

The Polk PSW10 is not a very good sub, and it may not offer much advantage over going with towers.

Save for a good sub.

So are you saying that one uses tower speakers they may not need a sub? Also if the PSW10 is not very good then why has it gotten such great reviews on Amazon and listed as the #1 selling sub?? I'm not saying it actually is the greatest but many people seem to really like it.

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Unless you have an amp or receiver that puts out the power to properly drive floor standing speakers to lower frequencies you would properly be better getting a sub to handle them
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post #16 of 141 Old 02-23-2014, 12:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Unless you have an amp or receiver that puts out the power to properly drive floor standing speakers to lower frequencies you would properly be better getting a sub to handle them

Well the plan is to get a receiver to power the speakers (tower or bookshelf) and possibly sub.

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post #17 of 141 Old 02-23-2014, 12:16 AM
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So are you saying that one uses tower speakers they may not need a sub? Also if the PSW10 is not very good then why has it gotten such great reviews on Amazon and listed as the #1 selling sub?? I'm not saying it actually is the greatest but many people seem to really like it.


The PSW10 is the king of the $100 subwoofers, just like the McDonald's Double Cheeseburger is the king of the $1 cheeseburgers. Just because it's a popular cheapass cheeseburger neither makes it good food nor a good cheeseburger. The PSW10 is such a poor subwoofer that towers often can do as well (or better).

A good sub is the soul of an HT setup. Towers are not a substitute.
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The PSW10 is the king of the $100 subwoofers, just like the McDonald's Double Cheeseburger is the king of the $1 cheeseburgers. Just because it's a popular cheapass cheeseburger neither makes it good food nor a good cheeseburger. The PSW10 is such a poor subwoofer that towers often can do as well (or better).

A good sub is the soul of an HT setup. Towers are not a substitute.

Well I'm not sure I can afford much more then that. I'm not exactly raking in lots of extra cash. I need something on a budget.

What about something like this? http://ottawa.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell-electronics-Paradigm-10-Active-Subwoofer-110CT-Sub-v-3-W0QQAdIdZ559168013

Or this? http://ottawa.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell-electronics-Mission-8-inch-subwoofer-model-70ASA-black-W0QQAdIdZ567890375

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I have floorstanders but still use a subwoofer. Cross them over, and let subwoofer do the low down stuff. No way my mains can reproduce what the SB Ultra 13 can.

If your have a low budget, get standmounts instead of low quality floorstanders. And still buy a sub
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I have floorstanders but still use a subwoofer. Cross them over, and let subwoofer do the low down stuff. No way my mains can reproduce what the SB Ultra 13 can.

If your have a low budget, get standmounts instead of low quality floorstanders. And still buy a sub

"standmounts"?? Do you mean bookshelf speakers? Also how would I cross over speakers?

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Standmounts and bookshelf speakers are slightly different. Standmounts are generally a bit bigger. You adjust the crossover in your avr to match the speakers, for standmounts or bookshelf generally 80hz is a good starting point, but if you have larger standmounts you could try 60hz.

Also depending on the room, getting floorstanders in a large room, and running full range is not a good idea. For bedroom, a pair of standmount or bookshelf, with perhaps a sub is a better choice.
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post #23 of 141 Old 02-23-2014, 05:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Standmounts and bookshelf speakers are slightly different. Standmounts are generally a bit bigger. You adjust the crossover in your avr to match the speakers, for standmounts or bookshelf generally 80hz is a good starting point, but if you have larger standmounts you could try 60hz.

Also depending on the room, getting floorstanders in a large room, and running full range is not a good idea. For bedroom, a pair of standmount or bookshelf, with perhaps a sub is a better choice.

Can you give me and example of stand mount speakers? I can't seem to find anything except speaker stands or wall mounts. Well the room I'd be in is no bigger than 20' x 15'. Do you think floor standing speakers wouldn't be a good idea?

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post #24 of 141 Old 02-23-2014, 05:48 AM
 
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Kef R100 are standmount/bookshelf speakers
http://www.kef.com/html/gb/showroom/hi-fi_series/r_series/fact_sheet/Bookshelf/r100/index.html

You can get large standmounts, Kef R300
http://www.kef.com/html/gb/showroom/hi-fi_series/r_series/fact_sheet/Bookshelf/r300/index.html

Wharfedale Diamon 9.0 are bookshelf speakers, they are quite small.
http://www.richersounds.com/product/standmount-speakers/wharfedale/diamond-9.0/whar-9.0-blk

You said you're on a budget, I don't recommend cheap floorstanders, they're built to a budget so if you look at $200 floorstanders with multipl drivers, and lots of wood, generally they're not exactly good speakers.
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post #25 of 141 Old 02-23-2014, 06:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Kef R100 are standmount/bookshelf speakers
http://www.kef.com/html/gb/showroom/hi-fi_series/r_series/fact_sheet/Bookshelf/r100/index.html

You can get large standmounts, Kef R300
http://www.kef.com/html/gb/showroom/hi-fi_series/r_series/fact_sheet/Bookshelf/r300/index.html

Wharfedale Diamon 9.0 are bookshelf speakers, they are quite small.
http://www.richersounds.com/product/standmount-speakers/wharfedale/diamond-9.0/whar-9.0-blk

You said you're on a budget, I don't recommend cheap floorstanders, they're built to a budget so if you look at $200 floorstanders with multipl drivers, and lots of wood, generally they're not exactly good speakers.

Well I found these on Amazon. And these are the cheap ones from the brands you suggested. Not exactly budget speakers in my view.
http://www.amazon.com/Wharfedale-DIA101-BLK-WHARFEDALE-DIAMOND-BLACK/dp/B003B8U9TU/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1393160369&sr=8-2&keywords=WHARFEDALE

http://www.amazon.com/KEF-C3-Bookshelf-Speaker-Black/dp/B001HV9A1G/ref=sr_1_23?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1393160451&sr=1-23&keywords=kef+speakers

Also why is multiple drivers and wood cabinets bad??

LG 49" UHDTV 49UJ6300; Yamaha RX-V481; Sony UBP-X800 BD Player; Fluance SXHTB speaker set, SVS SB-1000
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post #26 of 141 Old 02-23-2014, 06:07 AM
 
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Also why is multiple drivers and wood cabinets bad??

I didn't mean that, I mean multiple drivers in large cabinets, for a low price. ie for only $100, you get full range speakers, with treble, and six 8" woofers. Do a search for Beng speakers.

ie £170 for all of this

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/291068166646?hlpht=true&ops=true&viphx=1&lpid=95&device=c&adtype=pla&crdt=0&ff3=1&ff11=ICEP3.0.0&ff12=67&ff13=80&ff14=95

Also multiple drivers in a single cabinet (can) be a bad thing, some Hifi speakers split up the two units, Kef made a couple a couple of decades ago (looked like one box ontop of each other, thinK KUBE speakers, and JM Labs do Utopia which split them up.

http://www.hifidatabase.com/static/gallery/5/5145-KEF_Reference-105-4-Type-SP1120.jpg

http://www.procinema.hu/termekkepek/jmlab-focal-grande-utopia-be_big.jpg

But those are out of your price range LOL.

For that size room you're probably better off with floorstanders, but I would recommend spending more
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I didn't mean that, I mean multiple drivers in large cabinets, for a low price. ie for only $100, you get full range speakers, with treble, and six 8" woofers. Do a search for Beng speakers.

ie £170 for all of this

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/291068166646?hlpht=true&ops=true&viphx=1&lpid=95&device=c&adtype=pla&crdt=0&ff3=1&ff11=ICEP3.0.0&ff12=67&ff13=80&ff14=95

Also multiple drivers in a single cabinet (can) be a bad thing, some Hifi speakers split up the two units, Kef made a couple a couple of decades ago (looked like one box ontop of each other, thinK KUBE speakers, and JM Labs do Utopia which split them up.

http://www.hifidatabase.com/static/gallery/5/5145-KEF_Reference-105-4-Type-SP1120.jpg

http://www.procinema.hu/termekkepek/jmlab-focal-grande-utopia-be_big.jpg

But those are out of your price range LOL.

For that size room you're probably better off with floorstanders, but I would recommend spending more

LOL those Beng speakers went overkill on the drivers. I can't imagine one needs that many.

Are you recommending floor standing speakers alone or with a decent sub? How much more are you suggesting I spend? Thanks for all your help BTW.

LG 49" UHDTV 49UJ6300; Yamaha RX-V481; Sony UBP-X800 BD Player; Fluance SXHTB speaker set, SVS SB-1000
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Just my opinion, but cheapest I'd go is something like Kef C5 and SVS SB1000. I don't know if the Kef C5 are any good, What Hifi gave them 2 out of 5. Used to have Kef Q series and Coda floorstanders. Coda definetly lower quality, very plasticky. Wouldn't drop any lower than that.

If you're not willing to spend £350 minimum on floorstanders then get standmounts or buy second hand.


I bought these for £135 second hand. There were £900 new (about $1500)

http://www.audiounion.jp/stock_images/67442_big.jpg

You couldn't buy anything for £135 new, just a pair of really cheap and nasty bookshelfs..let alone high end pair of flagship real veneer, thick end panels and quality drivers.
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Just my opinion, but cheapest I'd go is something like Kef C5 and SVS SB1000. I don't know if the Kef C5 are any good, What Hifi gave them 2 out of 5. Used to have Kef Q series and Coda floorstanders. Coda definetly lower quality, very plasticky. Wouldn't drop any lower than that.

If you're not willing to spend £350 minimum on floorstanders then get standmounts or buy second hand.


I bought these for £135 second hand. There were £900 new (about $1500)

http://www.audiounion.jp/stock_images/67442_big.jpg

You couldn't buy anything for £135 new, just a pair of really cheap and nasty bookshelfs..let alone high end pair of flagship real veneer, thick end panels and quality drivers.

Hmm. I've never seen any of those speakers here in Canada. At least not new. I see a couple of very old models on places like Kijiji. Those celestion ones look nice but I don't see those anywhere. Even at a place like this in my city which claims to have high(er) end gear. http://www.stereoplus.com/

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post #30 of 141 Old 02-23-2014, 08:06 AM
 
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Paradigm are Canadian.

http://www.paradigm.com/
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