Behringer Eurolive B215XL 15" 2-Way as L/R Mains - Page 50 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1471 of 4174 Old 06-23-2015, 07:21 AM
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Chris,
I have owned a 7.1 system consisting of7 S-100B's and now own the 215's. I like the 215's better.


I have tested many speakers and the 215's setup properly in a HT setting plays some things better and some things not as good. I know they take much less effort to sound great. I just did a side by side with my JBL MR-825's which were $1600 for the pair brand new and my JBL DIY speaker. The Berries were preferred in every way over the 825's and DIY JBL which has over $1600 in parts for each speaker. I liked the sound stage and dynamics better on my DIY JBL but everything else was better on the 215's. Now, this is assuming we are talking crossing over to capable subs with great mid bass because as n individual speaker my JBL's extend down to 50hz so obviously they have much more bass as 2 channel towers. For HT or 2 channel crossed to subs I like the 215's over all. Again, there is a smoothness to them that only 3 other speakers can match I have owned and only the SEOS could play as loud. My DR's and JBL's both have more dynamics but the 215's have enough with that smoothness so I prefer them. Maybe as the room gets bigger there will be more differences but not in my room.

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post #1472 of 4174 Old 06-23-2015, 07:23 AM
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I think the 215 is a worthy upgrade to the 212's, bigger and fuller sound. The 212's are great though.
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post #1473 of 4174 Old 06-23-2015, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
I think the 215 is a worthy upgrade to the 212's, bigger and fuller sound.
Even with you crossing them over at 200hz?
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post #1474 of 4174 Old 06-23-2015, 07:41 AM
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Behringer Eurolive B215XL 15" 2-Way as L/R Mains

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Originally Posted by Chris Young View Post
How high did you go? Did you place the horn at ear height? Woofer or horn on top?

We had the berrys I think on that day turned up for a minute +12 on avr with the tweeter pretty close to eat height. They get loud! They sounded good at that level just very loud. I wish I could of measured high loud they got in there but a few guys were saying and this just a guess around 130+ db with the subs playing to It was at the end of the meet with the art of flight playing.
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post #1475 of 4174 Old 06-23-2015, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Even with you crossing them over at 200hz?


It is the only way I have heard both.

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post #1476 of 4174 Old 06-23-2015, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by eng-399 View Post
We had the berrys I think on that day turned up for a minute +12 on avr with the tweeter pretty close to eat height. They get loud! They sounded good at that level just very loud. I wish I could of measured high loud they got in there but a few guys were saying and this just a guess around 130+ db with the subs playing to It was at the end of the meet with the art of flight playing.

The Berries will not play 130 dB, it was the subs and I still question the accuracy of that with 4 subs. How was it measured and at what frequency? If these were calibrated correctly then 12 dB over reference means 117 dB at the seats. What material and how many speakers were engaged?
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post #1477 of 4174 Old 06-23-2015, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
The Berries will not play 130 dB, it was the subs and I still question the accuracy of that with 4 subs. How was it measured and at what frequency? If these were calibrated correctly then 12 dB over reference means 117 dB at the seats. What material and how many speakers were engaged?
Mtg90 ran rew the day before in my room with all 4 18's and the surrounds. We didn't have an spl meter that day this was just a general guess with the subs putting out there max and the Behringer's. The next meet were going to have more mic's set up so see what we're hearing it was really loud in there at the end of the meet though with it all the way up.
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post #1478 of 4174 Old 06-23-2015, 08:18 AM
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I have the 12" berrys for the back surrounds and Pispeakers for the side surrounds. We had the art of flight playing with everything going in the room turned to max on the avr. The complete surround is going through a emotiva 7 channel amp and the 4 18's are running through 2 Inuke 6000dsp amps. I really wish I knew the real number next GTG meet we will know the number I posted was just a guess by the last 5-7 guys that were in the room.
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post #1479 of 4174 Old 06-23-2015, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
The Berries will not play 130 dB, it was the subs and I still question the accuracy of that with 4 subs. How was it measured and at what frequency? If these were calibrated correctly then 12 dB over reference means 117 dB at the seats. What material and how many speakers were engaged?
Agreed. Four 18" subs could get there pretty easily depending on the room. No way the speakers were anywhere near that loud. (nor would you want them to be as it would be quite painful)
Reference (0 on main volume dial) should be 105dB peaks from the mainspeakers at the main listening position - assuming proper calibration. (You might lose about 10dB from the speaker to the listening position if it's 10-12' away - but it should still be hitting 105dB at the primary seat - just would be playing like 115dBish at the speaker itself (approximization of course))

People generally run their subs quite a bit hotter than their speakers based on preference.

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post #1480 of 4174 Old 06-23-2015, 08:23 AM
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With the Art of Flight track, I have little doubt you could have been hitting low 130dB range with the four 18" subs if you had them cranked up to the clip lights at max SPL. Assuming of course you were intentionally running the subwoofers hot!

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post #1481 of 4174 Old 06-23-2015, 08:37 AM
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Yes, I run my subs 10-12 dB hot and so does everyone if they use test tones in their AVR's or processors. Rarely does the test tones or pink noise at 75 dB slow weight c match up to being reference at MV 0dB. When using REW and a calibrated Umik one can clearly see how hot the test tones are. Of course, REW is based on sine wave sweeps so if I switch to pink noise it could be closer, I will try it. Anyways, the Berries are rated max peak 126 dB at 1m and that is most likely sounding like crap at max.

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post #1482 of 4174 Old 06-23-2015, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DocOrange88 View Post
This might sound like a weird statement, but the 215 reproduces the sound cleaner at the volume while being only fairly quieter. I could easily sit and listen to the 215 for a good while where as the Fusion 15 made me want to turn it off fairly quickly.
This is quite surprising. Maybe the speaker needs to be revised. But could be something else...

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So after reading the last few post looks like the 15" berry seems to be a good choice @ 219.00$ can't beat it. For its price and sound!
As always, it depends on the goals. Personally, for $219 I'd pick other things, but I don't need reference level sound. I also think the Mackie C200 might be an even better value, but it seems only Archaea uses them. From what I've seen of his disection of his, they pack a ton of value. Mind boggling actually.

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I think the point of this speaker is the general value. What you are getting for the money is very hard to beat. Is the 215 the best speaker for HT, obviously not there are many better options that play louder,cleaner,clearer and more dynamic.
True.

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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Just a few thoughts... I've taken my B215XLs to an AVS GTG, where it fared very well against some big-boy speakers. And, if you look back a few comments in this thread, you'll see another GTG where AVS members had the B215s up against a number of other speakers.

The 215s don't just sound good in isolation, they stand up when directly compared to other speakers.
Hmm, I've had a look at the comments from all the GTGs, but certainly may have missed some. Although I don't disagree the comments are generally positive and the speaker fairs well, the B215XL doesn't come out ahead of the competition or even on par based on peoples comments. There seems to be a pattern that the holds it's ground at $219 but there are better choices if the budget is lifted. Even Eng-399's recent GTG seems to mark Matt's synergyhorn and the QSCs at the top of the list. Possibly followed by the Fusion 8 and Elusive 1099? Just reading the general comments. I'm sure the gap was narrow, but...

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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Speaking of Klipsch, right now I have B215XLs in my 2-channel system (modded open baffle and running as active speakers)
So, not really a B215XL anymore

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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Having played with both active and passive speakers some at this point, I'm not sold that active speakers are inherently better than passive speakers as some on AVS would like to promote.
You're right. They aren't. There is nothing scientifically founded on statements that active is better. There are minor differences you can point to. But usually the differences people point out are patently false. I have the capability to design my own speakers active or passive. I have a box over flowing with passive parts, and I have various dsps. What method do I chose? Passive

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Anyhow, thanks to the miniDSP plugin, it's trivially easy to switch between time-aligned and native (as if passive), plus between different crossover points.
Really? Trivially easy?? I've never found active XO design to be trivially easy. In fact, I don't really find it any easier than passive XO design. Seems to me every time I design a XO the laws of physics are identical for each method. Sound still travels as a wave at about 340m/s and still leaves the drivers in the same way every time

Sorry to be cheeky. I come across this often. DSP doesn't allow someone to just punch in a XO point into some software and get good results. You still need anechoic measurements, XO design CAD, verification measurements, and a whole lot of listening to optomize. I don't doubt shutting down the woofer at 1200hz improved things (as I'm sure you recall me harping on this previously in this thread), but active XO design just doesn't work the way a lot of people think it does.
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post #1483 of 4174 Old 06-23-2015, 09:00 AM
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@MKtheater, I was guessing the Berry's would start exhibiting compression artifacts if compression sweeps were performed in the lowish 120dB range close mic (since Behringer likes to exagerate their specs - that assumption based on their amp's consistently exagerated specs (I like Behringer amps - so this isn't a knock - it's just the facts) and my testing on the B2031A sweeps which were supposed to go to 116dB max, but clearly don't --- https://www.avsforum.com/forum/15-gen...l#post32077681 - post 700) --- so I'm guessing the B215XL are probably capable of a little bit over 110dB at the primary theater seats depending on room (not accounting for loss of headroom due to EQ)? That's plenty loud enough for most and FAR more capability than the typical $200 Polk or Klipsch speaker.

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post #1484 of 4174 Old 06-23-2015, 09:03 AM
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Archaea, you think the B215XL was compressing as they kept increasing the volume? Could be, I know there are lights in the B215 to soak up power when pushed to hard. Very likely it was a dance party inside the speaker cab.
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post #1485 of 4174 Old 06-23-2015, 09:15 AM
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We have to make sure that just because a speaker compresses with sine wave sweeps does not mean it will compress with other signals at the same levels. To me it is very easy to tell when a speaker is compressing or distorting when too loud, it just sounds like crap no matter what material is used and then turn it down 3 dB and it sounds great. I played a 105 dB sweep through mine at the LP 14 feet away with no compression and why reference sounds great. I am sure it will go louder but REW is giving me a hard time with my processor right now, once my Yamaha comes in I will go much more info. I can tell you, after hearing the berries with passive crossovers I know they design better than my DIY active stuff. Same thing happened with my SEOS fusion 10's, nice pleasant smooth sound at reference that you want to turn up past reference to get more dynamic but they are.

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post #1486 of 4174 Old 06-23-2015, 09:17 AM
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Tux and imagic

Crossing the Berry's compression driver aka CD over at 1200hz - is that an issue?

The 15" may like the lower crossover point, but does the CD like it? What kind of audible artificats might the CD exhibit if it's being asked to play lower than it is capable of/designed for? imagic, have you heard anything rear its head? I know Jeff, of JTR Speakers, utilizes a 600hz crossover point on his CD with the 212HT, 210RT and 215RT, and that's apparently a good thing(or something in his design choice is because those 212HT and similar siblings are my personal favorite speaker I've heard yet), but there must be a limit with the cheaper CD -- otherwise why aren't the vendors just using lower crossover points out of the gate in design? I can assume there is a safety aspect to keep the CD from damage that provides some wiggle room, but how do you determine the lower limit? Is that simply an f3 point concern? I'm not knowledgable enough about this to have anything to add, but I am curious.

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post #1487 of 4174 Old 06-23-2015, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
Archaea, you think the B215XL was compressing as they kept increasing the volume? Could be, I know there are lights in the B215 to soak up power when pushed to hard. Very likely it was a dance party inside the speaker cab.
ha...funny!

Well my testing linked above was on the b2031a, not the b215xl, so jokes aside, I'm simply saying, like mktheater, that the speakers themselves were no where near 130dB level at this g2g. The subs might have got there. The B215XL speakers aren't even remotely capable of 130dB levels. I would wager that the B215XL, properly powered, would start exhibiting compression artifiacts in between 110dB and 115dB at the main listening position in most home theater environments. (conservative wager) --- which is still ridiculously loud in the home!

This is all just clarification discussion - not knocking the speakers.

MKTheater could probably do some compression sweeps with his B215XL and verify where it starts in his room - though his concrete bunker room is pretty unique in regards to boundary gain and FR sweeps.

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post #1488 of 4174 Old 06-23-2015, 09:23 AM
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I don't think you can completely compare or even put Matt's synergyhorn or the QSCs in the same world. You should be comparing them only to JBL's screen arrays. They are likely the only speakers that could compare. This is why I say I believe a JBL 3677 or higher is needed to be compared directly.
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post #1489 of 4174 Old 06-23-2015, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
To me it is very easy to tell when a speaker is compressing or distorting when too loud, it just sounds like crap no matter what material is used and then turn it down 3 dB and it sounds great.
A light bulb compressor won't sound like crap the way an overloaded distorting speaker will. Just like a compressor/limiter dsp won't sound like crap, but it's still compressing the signal which is a bad thing. Just not offensive.

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Tux and imagic

Crossing the Berry's compression driver aka CD over at 1200hz - is that an issue?
I doubt it in the home environment. I'd try 900hz personally. Depends how loud. I cross the DNA360 in my personal speakers at 900hz. At a GTG that was very loud I could hear a little bit of distortion. No one else commented but I was very focused on listening for exactly that. It was very little.

The low frequency limit is no different than a subwoofer. Vd. If the compression driver has the Vd to do 115db at 900hz then it will be fine. That's the damage limit. If you want utterly clean, distortion free sound, that's limited by a lot of things and measurements will help with finding that limit.
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post #1490 of 4174 Old 06-23-2015, 09:32 AM
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My speakers lose 6 dB from the speakers to the LP.

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post #1491 of 4174 Old 06-23-2015, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DocOrange88 View Post
I don't think you can completely compare or even put Matt's synergyhorn or the QSCs in the same world. You should be comparing them only to JBL's screen arrays. They are likely the only speakers that could compare. This is why I say I believe a JBL 3677 or higher is needed to be compared directly.
Well, if all you want to do is compare $219 speakers then sure, it wins big time. I don't think anyone disputes that. I suspect the Mackie C200 may do better though. That's a smaller speaker though and I like small speakers, I don't listen to loud. So what I like might not match what others like. So it depends how much a person wants to spend I guess. The berrys certainly have the budget realm nailed, whether it's these speakers, inukes, mixers, you name it.
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Originally Posted by pitviper33 View Post
Yes. The tweeter waveguide is the part you most want to get at ear level. It makes no difference whether the woofer is above or below it. In fact it looks like the Behringer was designed to sit that way as well; I see feet on the "top" in the pictures.
The 'feet' you're talking about are for stacking another unit on top. That's an option too, just buy two more!
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post #1493 of 4174 Old 06-23-2015, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
A light bulb compressor won't sound like crap the way an overloaded distorting speaker will. Just like a compressor/limiter dsp won't sound like crap, but it's still compressing the signal which is a bad thing. Just not offensive.



I doubt it in the home environment. I'd try 900hz personally. Depends how loud. I cross the DNA360 in my personal speakers at 900hz. At a GTG that was very loud I could hear a little bit of distortion. No one else commented but I was very focused on listening for exactly that. It was very little.

The low frequency limit is no different than a subwoofer. Vd. If the compression driver has the Vd to do 115db at 900hz then it will be fine. That's the damage limit. If you want utterly clean, distortion free sound, that's limited by a lot of things and measurements will help with finding that limit.

I understand that, I have owned speakers where they sound good at reference(very good actually) but seemed a bit too laid back as far as dynamics are concerned and sure enough they were compressing(Maggies). The Berries and SEOS did the same thing but had more dynamics so I measured them and sure enough there is no compression. Are my JBL speakers better? Yes, but in my HT setup with my IB system everyone liked the Berries better overall, I am not kidding. In another room with a different sub system it could be a whole different experience. All I know for now on I want passive crossovers with my speakers as I bet makes a world of difference when done right. I know everyone nick picks every design aspect about crossovers and such but if you are not playing these to their limits then you won't hear where the expensive speakers separate from these. This is a good thing and why we should have goals for our own rooms. If I had Notnyt's room I would have 3 4722n's across the front with 8 24's!
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Well, if all you want to do is compare $219 speakers then sure, it wins big time. I don't think anyone disputes that. I suspect the Mackie C200 may do better though. That's a smaller speaker though and I like small speakers, I don't listen to loud. So what I like might not match what others like. So it depends how much a person wants to spend I guess. The berrys certainly have the budget realm nailed, whether it's these speakers, inukes, mixers, you name it.
Smaller speakers do generally sound nicer. If you can relax your output demands and LFE extension small speakers can be the right choice. There is some physics that works out to the advantage of the smaller speaker/cabinet.
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I doubt it in the home environment. I'd try 900hz personally. Depends how loud. I cross the DNA360 in my personal speakers at 900hz. At a GTG that was very loud I could hear a little bit of distortion. No one else commented but I was very focused on listening for exactly that. It was very little.

The low frequency limit is no different than a subwoofer. Vd. If the compression driver has the Vd to do 115db at 900hz then it will be fine. That's the damage limit. If you want utterly clean, distortion free sound, that's limited by a lot of things and measurements will help with finding that limit.
How much output do you think you gain on the DNA360 if you bump up from 900hz to 975hz then to 1100hz ? Is it a big difference you think ?

For me I see distortion at 900hz. (I could dig up my graphs)
It's mostly gone at 975hz.

I'm sure some differences exist between same products, but my DNA360 seem to like 975 better than 900 (or 850) unless I am playing them soft. YMMV.
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post #1496 of 4174 Old 06-23-2015, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
How much output do you think you gain on the DNA360 if you bump up from 900hz to 975hz then to 1100hz ? Is it a big difference you think ?

For me I see distortion at 900hz. (I could dig up my graphs)
It's mostly gone at 975hz.

I'm sure some differences exist between same products, but my DNA360 seem to like 975 better than 900 (or 850) unless I am playing them soft. YMMV.
This is OT, so I'll keep it short, but 900 is the XO point so the tweeter is playing 6db down from the FR. Also the transfer function is more than 12db down at 900hz to achieve a flat response. 75hz difference in this range is peanuts when the transfer function is walking all over the distortion.
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post #1497 of 4174 Old 06-23-2015, 10:20 AM
 
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Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
This is OT, so I'll keep it short, but 900 is the XO point so the tweeter is playing 6db down from the FR. Also the transfer function is more than 12db down at 900hz to achieve a flat response. 75hz difference in this range is peanuts when the transfer function is walking all over the distortion.
I emailed you.

back on topic, What would happen if you lower the Berry XO ? I'm guessing distortion appears earlier- which might limit the dynamics or output people like about these.
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post #1498 of 4174 Old 06-23-2015, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
Well, if all you want to do is compare $219 speakers then sure, it wins big time. I don't think anyone disputes that.
I think @imagic has compared and favored the 215XL with speakers cost 6x more or even a lot more than that, @lefthandluke prefers his 212XL over his much much more expensive speakers (don't remember the exact cost) and there was the $575 psa MT110 at that GTG that from what I have read, the 215XL outperformed it. So the $219 215XL's have been compared to much more expensive speakers and not just to speaker at its price.
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post #1499 of 4174 Old 06-23-2015, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by digitrip View Post
The 'feet' you're talking about are for stacking another unit on top. That's an option too, just buy two more!
I wonder how they would sound with MTTM configuration if 2 are stacked. Bad idea with two CD tweeters?
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post #1500 of 4174 Old 06-23-2015, 11:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Smaller speakers do generally sound nicer. If you can relax your output demands and LFE extension small speakers can be the right choice. There is some physics that works out to the advantage of the smaller speaker/cabinet.
I find myself drawn to either large, sensitive speakers that offer effortless dynamics or very compact monitors that can nail precision imaging. Stuff that's in-between the two, such as typical towers with twin 6.5" woofers, are usually less exciting to me.
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