The OFFICIAL Pioneer Dolby Atmos Speaker Thread - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 888 Old 06-26-2014, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
No need to buy a high end AVR to get Atmos. Onkyo, for one, has an Atmos unit that comes in for less than $700. I can't recall the model number but it will be easily found.
$700 isnt cheap. As to whats reasonable that is, of course, entirely personal. My point was there is more to getting Atmos than just buying 2 more speakers as your post seemed to suggest.

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post #62 of 888 Old 06-26-2014, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Walkamo View Post
As far as the Atmos Enabled top firing speakers, hearing is believing, I have heard dozens of demos comparing in-ceiling speakers compared to the Dolby Enabled top firing drivers. In the proper room ( Room with a flat ceiling that is between 8 to 15 feet tall), I would choose the Atmos Enabled speakers every time. I know that people are not going to just believe me on this one, however after you hear I think you will agree with me (I was very skeptical before I heard it as well). I will have Andrew post his impressions of the two methods when we get back to Long Beach.
I can't help but think of a similar effect the old Yamaha soundbar offered - multiple beam drivers implemented in a soundbar projecting a surrounding effect off reflected sounds from the side walls. Of course it wasn't as convincing back then, due to certain limitations and setup restriction, but maybe as Atmos matures - even soundbars will finally take advantage and can be just as effective.
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post #63 of 888 Old 06-26-2014, 02:22 PM
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In mid to late July we will host an open house at our office in Long Beach for people to listen to the Dolby Enabled speakers compared to the AJ ceiling speakers.

Don't worry too much... Wait until you can get a proper demonstration and I believe you will be a happy camper.....

Chris Walker
Pioneer Electronics
Looking forward to this...pls keep us updated.
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post #64 of 888 Old 06-26-2014, 02:33 PM
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I strongly believe the quality of these speakers will be very good. HOWEVER, there is no way I'm going to replace my current set up with any speakers. I hope Pioneer will release top firing speaker modules for Atmos applications.

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post #65 of 888 Old 06-26-2014, 03:19 PM
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Pardon me if this comes across as raining on anyone's parade, but I just have to ask...with all sincerity...


First, I will admit it has been a long time since I listened to anything Pioneer, but I hardly considered anything they made when I did to be audiophile quality. When I was in college in the 80's, it was a brand that people could afford that was higher end than what they could buy at Sears, but not in the league with the audiophile brands. And, in all my shopping for gear in the last 28 years since college, they are not even a brand that came onto my radar screen. So, I don't understand the interest in the brand at this point due to Atmos...I would take a higher end brand without Atmos over a lower end one with Atmos any day. Now, they did just get purchased (by Onkyo, right?), so maybe that's new for them and good.


In any case, here's my question...what am I missing?
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post #66 of 888 Old 06-26-2014, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by carfanm View Post
Pardon me if this comes across as raining on anyone's parade, but I just have to ask...with all sincerity...

First, I will admit it has been a long time since I listened to anything Pioneer, but I hardly considered anything they made when I did to be audiophile quality. When I was in college in the 80's, it was a brand that people could afford that was higher end than what they could buy at Sears, but not in the league with the audiophile brands. And, in all my shopping for gear in the last 28 years since college, they are not even a brand that came onto my radar screen. So, I don't understand the interest in the brand at this point due to Atmos...I would take a higher end brand without Atmos over a lower end one with Atmos any day. Now, they did just get purchased (by Onkyo, right?), so maybe that's new for them and good.

In any case, here's my question...what am I missing?
For myself the draw are the Andrew Jones (Pioneer/TAD/Infinity/KEF) designed speakers.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/geoffrey...-and-tad-labs/
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post #67 of 888 Old 06-26-2014, 03:47 PM
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okay. Those look a *little* better than the current batch of Pioneer speakers. Sound quality trumps looks of course, but I'm pretty sure I can't get the current batch of speakers past WAF. I had to fight to get my current set of vanilla Sony speakers in the house.

Stand tall and shake the heavens...
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post #68 of 888 Old 06-26-2014, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by carfanm View Post
Pardon me if this comes across as raining on anyone's parade, but I just have to ask...with all sincerity...


First, I will admit it has been a long time since I listened to anything Pioneer, but I hardly considered anything they made when I did to be audiophile quality. When I was in college in the 80's, it was a brand that people could afford that was higher end than what they could buy at Sears, but not in the league with the audiophile brands. And, in all my shopping for gear in the last 28 years since college, they are not even a brand that came onto my radar screen. So, I don't understand the interest in the brand at this point due to Atmos...I would take a higher end brand without Atmos over a lower end one with Atmos any day. Now, they did just get purchased (by Onkyo, right?), so maybe that's new for them and good.


In any case, here's my question...what am I missing?
Proven designs from TAD, pioneer ex, and the entry level pioneer speakers. You're missing quite a lot tbh.
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post #69 of 888 Old 06-26-2014, 05:02 PM
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Thanks for those who responded but I just still don't get it. Sure, they got a guy who has been around...but that doesn't suddenly make a company audiophile.

Any other reasons?
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post #70 of 888 Old 06-26-2014, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by carfanm View Post
Sure, they got a guy who has been around...but that doesn't suddenly make a company audiophile.
What would "make a company audiophile" in your eyes?

Sanjay
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post #71 of 888 Old 06-26-2014, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
What would "make a company audiophile" in your eyes?
Please, shall this topic be taken to a different thread? Receiving e-mail notifications on a subscribed thread with such OT is a...you know what! Thx.

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post #72 of 888 Old 06-26-2014, 05:21 PM
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Please, shall this topic be taken to a different thread?
Please, can you stop being the thread police for once?
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post #73 of 888 Old 06-26-2014, 05:22 PM
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Please, can you stop being the thread police for once?
No police, just a care taker...
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post #74 of 888 Old 06-26-2014, 05:40 PM
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What would "make a company audiophile" in your eyes?
For starters, having a solid reputation of having exceptional sound quality. Frankly, Pioneer doesn't have that for me, and I would like to know what should change my mind.

I am truly sorry if some think this line of inquiry is off-topic. I am simply trying to understand the appeal, and in doing so try to learn more about this line of products.

If that is not a correct approach on this forum, then I will gladly stop trying to learn if a mod tells me to.
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post #75 of 888 Old 06-26-2014, 05:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by carfanm View Post
Pardon me if this comes across as raining on anyone's parade, but I just have to ask...with all sincerity...


First, I will admit it has been a long time since I listened to anything Pioneer, but I hardly considered anything they made when I did to be audiophile quality. When I was in college in the 80's, it was a brand that people could afford that was higher end than what they could buy at Sears, but not in the league with the audiophile brands. And, in all my shopping for gear in the last 28 years since college, they are not even a brand that came onto my radar screen. So, I don't understand the interest in the brand at this point due to Atmos...I would take a higher end brand without Atmos over a lower end one with Atmos any day. Now, they did just get purchased (by Onkyo, right?), so maybe that's new for them and good.


In any case, here's my question...what am I missing?
You are missing a lot. Pioneer is much better positioned to implement something like Atmos than any so-called audiophile electronics manufacturer. Audiophile brands are great for simplicity, but bad for complexity.
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post #76 of 888 Old 06-26-2014, 06:10 PM
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I have to disagree...basic good sound quality is basic good sound quality. Sending an allegedly better codec through inferior gear is still inferior. I am not saying this pioneer stuff is indeed inferior. But, Atmos is not even out, and recent reports are that it won't have nearly the features in the home as it will in cinema. So, it doesn't appear that it is going to be a huge jump in results vs. high quality equipment in a well-treated room. And my impression of prior Pioneer gear is that it was inferior to many others. I don't mean to insult anyone or their gear...just my impression.

So, why are these speakers going to be so awesome in sound over other high end gear that is already around?

I am just supposed to suddenly believe these are awesome, or I am missing something? Tell me what I am missing. Please...somebody? Anyone care to help me learn?

Last edited by carfanm; 06-26-2014 at 06:18 PM.
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post #77 of 888 Old 06-26-2014, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by carfanm View Post
For starters, having a solid reputation of having exceptional sound quality. Frankly, Pioneer doesn't have that for me, and I would like to know what should change my mind.

Two words - Andrew Jones

Just my 2¢ - take it or leave it for others

 

 

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post #78 of 888 Old 06-26-2014, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by beauzooka View Post
Newbie here with a quick question for Mr. Walker (AKA Walkamo). Are there future plans for non-Atmos versions of the SP-EFS73 and SP-EBS73? These speakers look great but I'd love to have a slightly lower price point version without the top speaker for music listening in stereo and not for AV.

Thank you,
Beau

We are considering it... No final decision yet....

I will let everyone know when we do...

Thanks,

Chris
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post #79 of 888 Old 06-26-2014, 06:26 PM
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First, it's nice to see another player using concentric drivers in a speaker priced in reach of "normal people." (And also a reasonably priced center channel that's not one of those risible toppled-MTM kludges!) I look forward to hearing the Atmos stuff when I get a chance.

But I have a technical question for you (or Andrew, if he has the time/inclination to jump in).

It appears from pictures at least that the concentric MF/HF in the mains channel is the same part as the concentric up-firing height channel. One thing I've noticed about previous (TAD, Pio EX) concentrics is that you've targeted a fairly wide pattern. For example, here is the normalized horizontal off-axis response of the TAD Evolution One as measured by Stereophile:


(I could've used Stereophile’s normalized horizontal off-axis plot for the TAD CR1 or Pio S-1EX as well. The E1 was just the first search hit.)

Compare that to KEF's speakers, which generally target a narrower pattern exemplified by the normalized horizontal off-axis response from the KEF LS50 measured under like conditions:


(I could've used Stereophile’s normalized horizontal off-axis response plot for any of their speakers; this one was just the most recently measured.)

Did you target the same wide pattern as on previous Pioneer EX and TAD concentric drivers for the Atmos speakers, or in your view is a narrower pattern better suited for Atmos HT use? I ask because it intuitively seems to me that for the upfiring speaker to work as intended, it should have narrow enough pattern control to make the first arrival very quiet compared to the ceiling reflection.

(Also, as an aside, these multiple-channel-in-one box speakers seem to me like the perfect opportunity for consumeer-marketed speakers to ditch antiquated binding posts for the modern 4-pole Speakon terminal!)
This is definitely a question for Andrew... Way above my head...

I will see if I can get him to post an answer...

Chris Walker
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post #80 of 888 Old 06-26-2014, 06:26 PM
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1. Sound quality wise, you can easily compare the Elite SC-75 ($1,500) to Krell Foundation ($7,000) I've done this test, level matched, using Cary 7.250 power amp in a dedicated theatre, 100% of the respondents (about 40-ish people, experiment done with 4-5 people at a time) prefer Elite SC-75 over Krell Foundation.

2. There is a decent video processor in the Elite SC-75, nothing inside Krell Foundation

If the two above can't answer your question, I don't know what will.

As for the speakers, if the Pioneer Andre Jones series is of any indication, the Elite speakers will be able to beat any speakers at their price range and will be able to match most speakers at double if not triple their price range. No, they are not "high end" such as MBL or any speakers at $5,000 plus, but at the same time they are priced at (I'm extrapolating) $600 a pair -- street price.

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post #81 of 888 Old 06-26-2014, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Walkamo View Post
Hi Filecat,

I had the same concerns about the bouncing the sound off of the ceilings as you did, however after I heard it I was quite surprised how well it worked. I then ran off to grab Andrew so he could hear the same demo (This was about a year ago at a Dolby Meeting). He scoffed when I told him about it, however he was just as impressed as I was.

I know people won't just believe me on this one, however don't dismiss the idea until you have had a chance to hear it. I really surprised me. To the point that we (Myself and Andrew) decided to build products based on this idea. I can honestly tell you that after the demo we did not see a reason for the ceiling speakers if your room met the requirements for the top drivers (Flat Ceiling with a height of 8 to 14 feet).

Chris Walker
Pioneer Electronics
Thanks for your gentlemanly and informative reply. I hope I can attend a demo in Long Beach (I'm across the Harbor in San Pedro) so I can hear what you two hear. Since you write that it was yours and Andrew's decision to build products based on this Dolby demo, I am breathing a little easier.

If it were a memo from the marketing department that started this project, I'd have little faith in it. As you know, this is the way a lot of product development works these days.

However, I have a lot of respect for TAD, its transducers, and the people behind it. So, if some of this professionalism and expertise from TAD is filtering into this Pioneer Elite Atmos speaker complement, then this will be worth a listen.

I hope I can snatch a place at the demo when it's available.

What I can afford, when I can afford it...
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post #82 of 888 Old 06-26-2014, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by carfanm View Post
For starters, having a solid reputation of having exceptional sound quality. Frankly, Pioneer doesn't have that for me, and I would like to know what should change my mind.
Listening to their speakers is the only thing that would change your mind. BTW, Pioneer has had a solid reputation with their Andrew Jones designed speakers, starting years before the budget models he designed for Best Buy. You might not have heard them or heard of them, but they were well reviewed in high end magazines and a treat to listen to at high end audio shows.
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I am truly sorry if some think this line of inquiry is off-topic.
It isn't off topic to discuss Pioneer speakers in a Pioneer speaker thread.
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Originally Posted by carfanm View Post
I have to disagree...basic good sound quality is good basic sound quality. Sending a better codec through inferior gear is still inferior.
You're describing subjective preferences using objective terms. Like when people say a movie gets better with subsequent viewings. How does the movie itself do that? What you like might or might not be "good basic sound quality". What you don't like isn't necessarily "inferior". Rather than thinking in those terms, listen to Jones' new speakers and decide if you like them or not.

Sanjay
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post #83 of 888 Old 06-26-2014, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by hyghwayman View Post
Two words - Andrew Jones
See my prior comments...why is one guy suddenly going to make a difference?

I don't mean to be argumentative, but so far the answer to my question sounds like "trust me", or "I believe so you should also.". How about a viable technical reason?
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post #84 of 888 Old 06-26-2014, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Walkamo View Post
We are considering it... No final decision yet....

I will let everyone know when we do...

Thanks,

Chris
Chris, will there be Atmos add-on speakers along the pipeline? As much as a great value AJ Elite series will be, I will not discard my current speakers to buy another pair of tower speakers. I already have a collection of tower speakers I don't use to begin with. Thank you.

PS: have you posted the MCACC Pro whitepaper for download yet?

Thank you beforehand.

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post #85 of 888 Old 06-26-2014, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by carfanm View Post
See my prior comments...why is one guy suddenly going to make a difference?

I don't mean to be argumentative, but so far the answer to my question sounds like "trust me", or "I believe so you should also.". How about a viable technical reason?

1. Sound quality wise, you can easily compare the Elite SC-75 ($1,500) to Krell Foundation ($7,000) I've done this test, level matched, using Cary 7.250 power amp in a dedicated theatre, 100% of the respondents (about 40-ish people, experiment done with 4-5 people at a time) prefer Elite SC-75 over Krell Foundation.

2. There is a decent video processor in the Elite SC-75, nothing inside Krell Foundation

If the two above can't answer your question, I don't know what will.

As for the speakers, if the Pioneer Andre Jones series is of any indication, the Elite speakers will be able to beat any speakers at their price range and will be able to match most speakers at double if not triple their price range. No, they are not "high end" such as MBL or any speakers at $5,000 plus, but at the same time they are priced at (I'm extrapolating) $600 a pair -- street price.

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post #86 of 888 Old 06-26-2014, 06:36 PM
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What you don't like isn't necessarily "inferior". Rather than thinking in those terms, listen to Jones' new speakers and decide if you like them or not.
I know good sound and bad sound. And it does not depend on price. I am looking for a reason to go listen to these other than "Andrew is good". What are the technical reasons that I should? Really...
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post #87 of 888 Old 06-26-2014, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Walkamo View Post
This is definitely a question for Andrew... Way above my head...

I will see if I can get him to post an answer...

Chris Walker

Of course it's way above your head. It's Atmos we are discussing, it's supposed to be above your head :-)
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post #88 of 888 Old 06-26-2014, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by filecat13 View Post
Thanks for your gentlemanly and informative reply. I hope I can attend a demo in Long Beach (I'm across the Harbor in San Pedro) so I can hear what you two hear. Since you write that it was yours and Andrew's decision to build products based on this Dolby demo, I am breathing a little easier.

If it were a memo from the marketing department that started this project, I'd have little faith in it. As you know, this is the way a lot of product development works these days.

However, I have a lot of respect for TAD, its transducers, and the people behind it. So, if some of this professionalism and expertise from TAD is filtering into this Pioneer Elite Atmos speaker complement, then this will be worth a listen.

I hope I can snatch a place at the demo when it's available.
I am sure we will be able to accommodate you for our open house. We can do multiple sessions if necessary.

Our goal is to be able to demonstrate both in-ceiling and Dolby enabled speakers at the demo so everyone can compare....

As soon as I can lock down a date I will let everyone know.

Thanks,

Chris Walker
Pioneer Electronics
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post #89 of 888 Old 06-26-2014, 07:13 PM
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Of course it's way above your head. It's Atmos we are discussing, it's supposed to be above your head :-)
I am glad you are better at designing speakers then you are making jokes....

Chris
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post #90 of 888 Old 06-26-2014, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by carfanm View Post
I know good sound and bad sound. And it does not depend on price. I am looking for a reason to go listen to these other than "Andrew is good". What are the technical reasons that I should? Really...
Hi,

I was trying to let others answer your questions because I did not want to appear to be just hyping up our products..

Here are some reviews of our current $129.00 bookshelf speakers.

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/arti...r-loudspeaker/

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/arti...r-loudspeaker/

http://www.stereophile.com/content/p...lr-loudspeaker

And here is the summary from Stereophile.

Summing Up
It's impressive when a talented speaker designer such as Andrew Jones takes time off from designing $80,000/pair speakers to come up with a quality speaker costing less than $200/pair. It's even more impressive when he takes the time to revise and refine such an inexpensive design. Jones's SP-BS22-LR is a stunning achievement at $159.99/pair. Its sound is balanced, neutral, and involving, with no significant shortcomings. I'm scratching my head at how Pioneer can produce this level of quality at this price. Every audiophile—even well-heeled investment bankers—should listen to the Pioneer SP-BS22-LR, to hear what's possible for the fiscally challenged music lover.


Chris Walker
Pioneer Electronics
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andrew jones , dolby atmos , Pioneer

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