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post #901 of 3022 Old 01-11-2016, 12:11 AM
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I'm thinking about going with 4x Klipsch CDT-5800-C II for my ceiling speakers in my 8' tall basement. Do these need to have a box built around them or can they go directly in the ceiling?

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post #902 of 3022 Old 01-11-2016, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by cholmes1 View Post
Just installed 4 B&W CCM664's to complete my 5.1.4 system. These speakers are really incredible, the dispersion angle seems very wide, they have the option of tilting the tweeter towards the MLP if your room has an odd ceiling like mine, and they have enough LF to meet all of the ATMOS movies I have to date (San Andreas, Mad Max, John Wick, and ATMOS CEDIA Demo Disc). I have more information and photos in my theater link, but I am very happy with the purchase and would highly recommend them. The only area where I have seen any short coming is that they do require a bit of depth, so if you are in a basement similar to mine, you will need clear joists to mount.



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2 x B&W 604 S2
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Nice speakers -- did you conider using the optional B&W backer boxes? When I do integrate ATMOS in my theater -- I really want to be able to use a speaker that has a backer box to isolate sound to the theater. I spent a lot of time and money on sound isolation - and I don't want to defeat the investment but transmitting sound upstairs through the ATMOS system.
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post #903 of 3022 Old 01-11-2016, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Skrill View Post
Nice speakers -- did you conider using the optional B&W backer boxes? When I do integrate ATMOS in my theater -- I really want to be able to use a speaker that has a backer box to isolate sound to the theater. I spent a lot of time and money on sound isolation - and I don't want to defeat the investment but transmitting sound upstairs through the ATMOS system.
My biggest mistake on my Atmos deployment was putting my TRs in without back boxes. Height wouldn't allow for it. It's not even the sound transfer upstairs so much. You WILL get all sorts of vibration and resonance. You can't put anything in the ceiling without creating some duct ringing and resonance between the joists. It does color the LF. If you don't have the height for a box, then consider surface mount. It's really a necessity and not an option.
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post #904 of 3022 Old 01-11-2016, 08:50 AM
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Where can I get a copy of ATMOS CEDIA Demo Disc? Is there a free download?

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post #905 of 3022 Old 01-11-2016, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by ClintonH View Post
So what's everybodys opinion on 5.2.4 or 7.2.2 for the ceiling mounted option? I only have 1 row of seats and a low ceiling 7' 4.5"
Just bought a Denon X4100 and trying to decide how many speakers to order next, currently running 7.1
Anyone else have any input on this? Like to go with the best option and not buy extra speakers that aren't needed.
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post #906 of 3022 Old 01-11-2016, 09:28 AM
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My biggest mistake on my Atmos deployment was putting my TRs in without back boxes. Height wouldn't allow for it. It's not even the sound transfer upstairs so much. You WILL get all sorts of vibration and resonance. You can't put anything in the ceiling without creating some duct ringing and resonance between the joists. It does color the LF. If you don't have the height for a box, then consider surface mount. It's really a necessity and not an option.
I disagree with some of your points, especially " It's really a necessity and not an option.". I do not have traditional backer boxes (see below) and have done some cursory audio tests to show very little resonance within my ducting and between the joists. Unless someone is listening at reference levels (uncommon) or has a tremendous amount of duct work to work around I do not think the average person will notice much, if anything, in terms of resonance within the theater itself.

For comparison purposes with your setup Stoked21, I have my left rear directly below a duct that heats/cools the upper guest room (more sound transmission in that room to be certain, but nothing that is noticeable in the actual theater). My joists are also spaced 18" apart with 12" of clearance from ceiling back to subfloor above and all open to cold storage if not for my make shift air boxes. Finally, the ceiling itself is 1" drywall.

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Nice speakers -- did you consider using the optional B&W backer boxes? When I do integrate ATMOS in my theater -- I really want to be able to use a speaker that has a backer box to isolate sound to the theater. I spent a lot of time and money on sound isolation - and I don't want to defeat the investment but transmitting sound upstairs through the ATMOS system.
I did not install traditional backer boxes as space would not allow, but I was able to create an 'air box' using the existing joists. Essentially I took plywood and nailed it around the install hole in the joists. The end result looked like this [o]

Having only an 8" circle in which to work, actual B&W backer boxes were not an option. That said, top floor transmission was not of much a concern as it is just my wife and I and my theater lies below a guest room on the opposite corner of the house from the master. Had it been the other way I certainly would have considered stronger isolation methods. However, given the proximity (ceiling to sub floor) and the small space (area between joists) you are dealing with I am not certain it would be possible to limit all sound transmission without great expanse. Hope this helps.

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post #907 of 3022 Old 01-11-2016, 09:41 AM
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Where can I get a copy of ATMOS CEDIA Demo Disc? Is there a free download?
As far as I am aware there is no 'free' copy of any ATMOS demo discs. You can find a sample of ATMOS intros (Amaze, Conductor Girl, Leaf, Silent Film, and Unfold) for free through VUDU, but in terms of an actual disc or download of an existing disc I am not certain if one has been made. If you are comfortable searching and downloading torrents those would likely be your best bet. I purchased mine through this forum in the classifieds ( it is actually a German demonstration disc, but is identical to the first CEDIA demo discs from 2012-13). The current demo discs have a LOT more content and are selling on eBay for very high pricing....

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Anyone else have any input on this? Like to go with the best option and not buy extra speakers that aren't needed.
I have two rows, but being that it is primarily just my wife and I it certainly functions more as a single row. With that in mind I think you would be happier with a .4 system. There is a great deal of material in the ATMOS films I have that sweeps from front to back, left rear to right front, etc. With only two speakers I am not certain it would give the complete effect. That said, I think .2 would certainly be appreciated. I installed .4 because I did not want to have to do any more ceiling work.

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post #908 of 3022 Old 01-11-2016, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by cholmes1 View Post
I disagree with some of your points, especially " It's really a necessity and not an option.". I do not have traditional backer boxes (see below) and have done some cursory audio tests to show very little resonance within my ducting and between the joists. Unless someone is listening at reference levels (uncommon) or has a tremendous amount of duct work to work around I do not think the average person will notice much, if anything, in terms of resonance within the theater itself.



I did not install traditional backer boxes as space would not allow, but I was able to create an 'air box' using the existing joists. Essentially I took plywood and nailed it around the install hole in the joists. The end result looked like this [o]

Having only an 8" circle in which to work, actual B&W backer boxes were not an option. That said, top floor transmission was not of much a concern as it is just my wife and I and my theater lies below a guest room on the opposite corner of the house from the master. Had it been the other way I certainly would have considered stronger isolation methods. However, given the proximity (ceiling to sub floor) and the small space (area between joists) you are dealing with I am not certain it would be possible to limit all sound transmission without great expanse. Hope this helps.
So in other words, you do agree as you didn't just put them in the ceiling completely open. You created a box around them.
Traditional or non-traditional box, you do not want to just throw the speaker up there open back. Remove the plywood you used and then listen again. Let's not mislead people that you don't need to concern yourself with resonance. I'm not necessarily advocating the purchase of the manuf matching box (especially if it won't fit or will cause massive drywall tear out). They are expensive and not in everyone's budget. I'm not even necessarily advocating spending $100 for the dynamat soft box that can be rolled up there. Even wood and insulation will help.

If you do listen at reference and have high SPL speakers....Even a backer box (custom or off-the-shelf) won't save you. But it will help tremendously. To your point, if I'm below reference then I don't "hear" it. But run Audyssey chirps and you will literally hear your ceiling resonating and ducts pinging even at 75db. Audyssey or any other REQ will hear it as well.

If people are going to the trouble of tearing open their ceiling and spending a fair amount of $ to put in four speakers, then they should spend the extra $20 for wood and/or insulation as you did. Or if you budget and installation allows, spend the money for the back box. It's counterintuitive to want better/immersive sound and then deteriorate your SQ with half-*** installation with nothing at all around the speaker.....I should know, I did it on my top rears!!!
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post #909 of 3022 Old 01-11-2016, 09:56 AM
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So in other words, you do agree as you didn't just put them in the ceiling completely open. You created a box around them.
Traditional or non-traditional box, you do not want to just throw the speaker up there open back. Remove the plywood you used and then listen again. Let's not mislead people that you don't need to concern yourself with resonance. I'm not necessarily advocating the purchase of the manuf matching box (especially if it won't fit or will cause massive drywall tear out). They are expensive and not in everyone's budget. I'm not even necessarily advocating spending $100 for the dynamat soft box that can be rolled up there. Even wood and insulation will help.

If you do listen at reference and have high SPL speakers....Even a backer box (custom or off-the-shelf) won't save you. But it will help tremendously. To your point, if I'm below reference then I don't "hear" it. But run Audyssey chirps and you will literally hear your ceiling resonating and ducts pinging even at 75db. Audyssey or any other REQ will hear it as well.

If people are going to the trouble of tearing open their ceiling and spending a fair amount of $ to put in four speakers, then they should spend the extra $20 for wood and/or insulation as you did. Or if you budget and installation allows, spend the money for the back box. It's counterintuitive to want better/immersive sound and then deteriorate your SQ with half-*** installation with nothing at all around the speaker.....I should know, I did it on my top rears!!!
I do agree that some containment, if none is present, should be utilized where possible. My fix was very cheap (free plywood lying in my basement from a previous project, but to say it is a must still does not seem fully accurate. Will it be as effective, probably not, but if the only way you can accomplish the task is to cut a larger hole in your ceiling or use a $100 'bag' with little actual testing/proof of working I would be skeptical. To your Audyssey point, I have heard the YPAO ping distance/frequency test and it does resonate more than any other (even more the LF sweeps), however, those frequencies do not seem to appear in any of the films I have watched or are not strong/loud enough to be noticeable while watching.

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post #910 of 3022 Old 01-11-2016, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cholmes1 View Post

I have two rows, but being that it is primarily just my wife and I it certainly functions more as a single row. With that in mind I think you would be happier with a .4 system. There is a great deal of material in the ATMOS films I have that sweeps from front to back, left rear to right front, etc. With only two speakers I am not certain it would give the complete effect. That said, I think .2 would certainly be appreciated. I installed .4 because I did not want to have to do any more ceiling work.
Thanks for the information, I think I will go with the .4 setup to be sure.
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post #911 of 3022 Old 01-11-2016, 02:19 PM
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Pendant speakers?

So I am about to step into the world of Atmos and am a little bit lost on what to do with my overhead speaker situation... I have a Kef system (7.2 with Kef T301s all around) and a fairly large room with a ceiling that values from 8' on one side to about 12' on the other. Can't do in-ceiling, so I'm left with on-wall and titled towards the listener or perhaps something like these:

JBL C62P
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...Satellite.html


Any thoughts or experiences with pendant-style speakers for overheads?
Thanks in advance!
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post #912 of 3022 Old 01-11-2016, 07:25 PM
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JBL C62P
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...Satellite.html


Any thoughts or experiences with pendant-style speakers for overheads?
Thanks in advance!
I'd pass on those speakers. 2 inch driver with 20 watts. No mention of sensitivity but I'd assume it's quite low.

Why can't you have in ceiling speakers? Do you have a picture of the room?

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post #913 of 3022 Old 01-11-2016, 07:36 PM
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Best in ceiling speakers for Atmos?

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Originally Posted by bombertodd View Post
I'd pass on those speakers. 2 inch driver with 20 watts. No mention of sensitivity but I'd assume it's quite low.



Why can't you have in ceiling speakers? Do you have a picture of the room?


Here you go... Won't do recessed (can't, really). Could do high up on the sides and aimed down.
Well, opted for a couple JBL Control 1 speakers mounted to the ceiling and am quite pleased with the sound. Thanks to all for the insight!

Last edited by DanGraney; 01-16-2016 at 01:29 PM.
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post #914 of 3022 Old 01-11-2016, 07:45 PM
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Here you go... Won't do recessed (can't, really). Could do high up on the sides and aimed down.

Are you handy at all? You could build some volts and mount them to the ceiling. Or start looking at bookshelf speakers with a good mount for the ceiling. Most rooms aren't perfect. Make the best of it!

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/coaxial-speaker-kits.html

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post #915 of 3022 Old 01-11-2016, 07:53 PM
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Are you handy at all? You could build some volts and mount them to the ceiling. Or start looking at bookshelf speakers with a good mount for the ceiling. Most rooms aren't perfect. Make the best of it!

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/coaxial-speaker-kits.html
Probably a little more advanced than my skillset, though I rarely balk at a challenge. But are those along the same line as these?
https://www.avsforum.com/svs-prime-el...t-at-ces-2016/

FYI, I have a pair of these that I originally intended to use in just this fashion - high up on the wall, tilted towards the MLP:

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post #916 of 3022 Old 01-12-2016, 04:18 PM
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I'd pass on those speakers. 2 inch driver with 20 watts. No mention of sensitivity but I'd assume it's quite low.

Why can't you have in ceiling speakers? Do you have a picture of the room?
so I just got through my install of 4 in ceilings (Klipsch 5800's). We watched San Andreas last night and was ...under whelmed.

I have played all the dolby atmos tracks from Vudu, and from my USB... under whelmed.

The most frustrating thing about these in ceilings is they are supposed to freely rotate, however, I am only able to tilt them two directions and the tweeter does freely move...

All in all, I am about $2k in after the speakers, electrician, and now the dry wall repair.

I will say my marantz read ATMOS from the San Andreas blu ray, but only Dolby+ from the Atmos tracks, which I assume is NOT playing the actual atmos tracks..

recommendations?


(my amp is set to 9.1 with 4 height (in ceilings). I tried switching to dolby modules on the amp and it has no noticeable differences, both amp settings state dolby atmos enabled).

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post #917 of 3022 Old 01-12-2016, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
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so I just got through my install of 4 in ceilings (Klipsch 5800's). We watched San Andreas last night and was ...under whelmed.

I have played all the dolby atmos tracks from Vudu, and from my USB... under whelmed.

The most frustrating thing about these in ceilings is they are supposed to freely rotate, however, I am only able to tilt them two directions and the tweeter does freely move...

All in all, I am about $2k in after the speakers, electrician, and now the dry wall repair.

I will say my marantz read ATMOS from the San Andreas blu ray, but only Dolby+ from the Atmos tracks, which I assume is NOT playing the actual atmos tracks..

recommendations?


(my amp is set to 9.1 with 4 height (in ceilings). I tried switching to dolby modules on the amp and it has no noticeable differences, both amp settings state dolby atmos enabled).

Couple things to check:
1) I'm guessing you were streaming the Atmos clips over Vudu from your TV app? I've yet to see a TV using ARC that will support Atmos (no metadata). Actually, I don't think it's possible. You're best off using a media player or BD player Vudu app. That should get it to say Atmos.
2) You bought some expensive speakers, the aiming is nice to have as it helps to cover 2-rows. The Klipsch site doesn't say what the dispersion is also. So aiming helps you to move the actual axis to aim towards MLP. Use an SPL meter with test tones to verify they are similar to your other speakers.
3) As above, Re-run your calibration. I'm assuming you already did? Not sure what AVR you are using, but you need to make sure the speakers are level matched.
4) San Andreas doesn't have the best Atmos usage IMO. Try something like Gravity or Terminator or Mad Max.
5) Finally, and hopefully you did. Measure your angles. I'm not sure if they are too far outside dolby spec. That would destroy the effect. They could also be laterally too close or too far from each other.

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post #918 of 3022 Old 01-12-2016, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoked21 View Post
Couple things to check:
1) I'm guessing you were streaming the Atmos clips over Vudu from your TV app? I've yet to see a TV using ARC that will support Atmos (no metadata). Actually, I don't think it's possible. You're best off using a media player or BD player Vudu app. That should get it to say Atmos.
2) You bought some expensive speakers, the aiming is nice to have as it helps to cover 2-rows. The Klipsch site doesn't say what the dispersion is also. So aiming helps you to move the actual axis to aim towards MLP. Use an SPL meter with test tones to verify they are similar to your other speakers.
3) As above, Re-run your calibration. I'm assuming you already did? Not sure what AVR you are using, but you need to make sure the speakers are level matched.
4) San Andreas doesn't have the best Atmos usage IMO. Try something like Gravity or Terminator or Mad Max.
5) Finally, and hopefully you did. Measure your angles. I'm not sure if they are too far outside dolby spec. That would destroy the effect. They could also be laterally too close or too far from each other.
1) no I tried usb clips downloaded Atmos tracks.

But I just used my ps4 vudu app and you were spot on. Atmos was selectable on my Marantz 7010. Sounded MUCH better. Thanks!

2) might buy an spl meter now.

3) audyssey ran of course. Xt32 pro.

4) I have gravity with atmos. I'll give that a shot. I think San Andreas must have a shotty atmos track.

5) I had some help getting my angles and distances within spec. So I'm good there.

Again. Thanks for the quick help!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmercer3 View Post
so I just got through my install of 4 in ceilings (Klipsch 5800's). We watched San Andreas last night and was ...under whelmed.

I have played all the dolby atmos tracks from Vudu, and from my USB... under whelmed.

The most frustrating thing about these in ceilings is they are supposed to freely rotate, however, I am only able to tilt them two directions and the tweeter does freely move...

All in all, I am about $2k in after the speakers, electrician, and now the dry wall repair.

I will say my marantz read ATMOS from the San Andreas blu ray, but only Dolby+ from the Atmos tracks, which I assume is NOT playing the actual atmos tracks..

recommendations?


(my amp is set to 9.1 with 4 height (in ceilings). I tried switching to dolby modules on the amp and it has no noticeable differences, both amp settings state dolby atmos enabled).
Did you install your ceiling speakers directly in the ceiling? or is there an enclosure around them?

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post #920 of 3022 Old 01-13-2016, 07:03 AM
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i wonder,why not just use bookshelf for overhead..no need no put holes on ceiling
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i wonder,why not just use bookshelf for overhead..no need no put holes on ceiling
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post #922 of 3022 Old 01-13-2016, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by man's View Post
i wonder,why not just use bookshelf for overhead..no need no put holes on ceiling
I would love to do this option, but my ceilings are only 8 feet tall. Having a bookshelf mounted on a ceiling that low, IMO, would be too low.....

That is just a matter of my opinion though.
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post #923 of 3022 Old 01-14-2016, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Snipe3000 View Post
Did you install your ceiling speakers directly in the ceiling? or is there an enclosure around them?
no enclosure. Couldnt see a feasible way to get large enough portions of plywood, or anything 'home made' through that 10" cut in order to do it right. I figured I would at least test them without the enclosure first, and honestly, they fit tightly against the drywall so there is no rattling even at reference, and I know I may still be losing some sound inside the ceiling... but it sounds good for now.

I will ask, does anyone know how to rotate these 5800's. The manual states they rotate, however, I couldnt get them to budge other than tilt... and I even loosened the screws to try that. Any trick to it?

Just to confirm, once atmos is enabled they sound great. The upmixing and/or multi channel audio option is useless for them though imo.

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post #924 of 3022 Old 01-14-2016, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by dmercer3 View Post
I will ask, does anyone know how to rotate these 5800's. The manual states they rotate, however, I couldnt get them to budge other than tilt... and I even loosened the screws to try that. Any trick to it?
I'm not sure but this is from Amazon Q&A.

The woofer turns on a plastic ball joint. It may be stuck. Don't push too hard or force it, or it'll snap it. Then it'll hang without any control as to where it points. I would gently try to turn the woofer in different directions until it loosens whatever is causing it to be stuck. Just be careful. Good luck.
By D. Chris Orton on January 14, 2016
I was only able to rotate mine while it was not installed. I just held the outer ring and rotated the speaker by grabbing the magnet and rotating while holding the outer ring in place.
By Danny B. on January 14, 2016
You can mount it in any direction, or 360 degrees. The cone rotates in one direction. The combination allows you to point it where you want.
By Doug Sunshine on January 14, 2016

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post #925 of 3022 Old 01-14-2016, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by bombertodd View Post
I'm not sure but this is from Amazon Q&A.

The woofer turns on a plastic ball joint. It may be stuck. Don't push too hard or force it, or it'll snap it. Then it'll hang without any control as to where it points. I would gently try to turn the woofer in different directions until it loosens whatever is causing it to be stuck. Just be careful. Good luck.
By D. Chris Orton on January 14, 2016
I was only able to rotate mine while it was not installed. I just held the outer ring and rotated the speaker by grabbing the magnet and rotating while holding the outer ring in place.
By Danny B. on January 14, 2016
You can mount it in any direction, or 360 degrees. The cone rotates in one direction. The combination allows you to point it where you want.
By Doug Sunshine on January 14, 2016
yeah that was actually a response to my question on there tonight, good info, ill try this over the weekend. (have to get up there with a ladder)

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post #926 of 3022 Old 01-15-2016, 11:48 PM
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I just installed a set of Def Tech DI6.5R's today. I actually built 3/4" mdf enclosures for them and mounted the enclosures in the attic since I have access up there. The speakers sound great and match my Energy RC series pretty well. Here's some pics of the enclosures and the speakers in the ceiling. The pics make my ceiling look all washed out but it (and the front wall) are a very dark slate grey, almost black.
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post #927 of 3022 Old 01-16-2016, 10:15 PM
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Hi loknload, these look good. Are the boxes open on the bottom side and are just placed over the speakers? Or, did you cut out a circle and the speakers are fastened to your ceiling and to the box?
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post #928 of 3022 Old 01-17-2016, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by dsowens View Post
Hi loknload, these look good. Are the boxes open on the bottom side and are just placed over the speakers? Or, did you cut out a circle and the speakers are fastened to your ceiling and to the box?
The boxes were open on the bottom. I thought about using some 1/4" material on the bottom and cutting a hole for the speaker to clamp down on both the box and the ceiling but then I realized I didn't have to because I could secure the boxes to the rafters. Then I caulked all the way around the bottom of the enclosure. I called Def Tech and they told me to put them in 3/4 to 1 cubic foot. the enclosures have an internal volume of 1 cubic foot and the speakers have excellent bass response. Overall I'm very happy but now I have the itch to put in two more for top rear speakers (right now the two that are in are designated top middle but that would change to top front at the point I put in two more) and I don't have the room to build these types of enclosures for the rear speakers because of the roof line. I also don't know how much I want to climb up and down in and out of my attic a bunch of times...I'm still sore from that workout.
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post #929 of 3022 Old 01-17-2016, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by vitod View Post
Where can I get a copy of ATMOS CEDIA Demo Disc? Is there a free download?
I just picked 1 up on ebay for 31.00 shipped. Worth the money, imo...

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post #930 of 3022 Old 01-17-2016, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by loknload View Post
I just installed a set of Def Tech DI6.5R's today. I actually built 3/4" mdf enclosures for them and mounted the enclosures in the attic since I have access up there. The speakers sound great and match my Energy RC series pretty well. Here's some pics of the enclosures and the speakers in the ceiling. The pics make my ceiling look all washed out but it (and the front wall) are a very dark slate grey, almost black.
I did the same in my attic over a month ago, but with 1/2" plywood. Definitly made a difference in bass response, I installed 2 Infinity 110s.

(R&L: Infinity Beta 50) (Center: Infinity Beta C360) (Surround Side & Back: Infinity IW ERS 210 x 4) (TM: Infinity IC ERS 110 x 2) (Sub: Def Tech SC1)
(7.2.2 Config.) (AVR: Denon-4500) (Audiosource Amp 110 for TM's) (BRP: Pioneer 80FD) (Nvidia Shield TV) (Display: LG-65C9)
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