Best in ceiling speakers for Atmos? - Page 81 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2401 of 3108 Old 06-22-2017, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrbonus View Post
Can someone recommend me speakercraft or Polk ceiling speakers for atmos. I want the best possible.
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Originally Posted by fonz5000 View Post
I just bought 2 of the Polk MC80's to try out. They seem to be just a step above the RC80i.

I'm so nervous about cutting a hole in the ceiling of our new house. HA!
I am using four MC60's myself for 7.2.4 I was going to buy the MC80, but the Polk tech suggested to get the MC60, as he claimed it produces better mid-range.
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post #2402 of 3108 Old 06-22-2017, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by fonz5000 View Post
I just bought 2 of the Polk MC80's to try out. They seem to be just a step above the RC80i.

I'm so nervous about cutting a hole in the ceiling of our new house. HA!
Ha, it's for the greater good. Immersive sounds awaits. But measure twice, I get how you feel about the new place.

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post #2403 of 3108 Old 06-23-2017, 07:02 AM
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I was nervous also 3 yrs ago in brand new vacation house. I measured 3x before getting the Sheetrock mini saw out. Just use the supplied template, there is room if you stray a little. I have the Polk RC80i and very happy with them in 5.1 set-up in open great room

Primary set-up 5.2.4; Yamaha A2050, Paired w/Parasound P5 & ATI 522NC 2 channel amp
Revel F206 fronts & Revel M16 rears; 2 Outlaw X12 Subs & 4 RSL C34e in-ceilings

Secondary 5.1: Denon S900W, Polk LSiM703/704C, Polk RC80i in-ceiling rears, RSL Speedwoofer 10s
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post #2404 of 3108 Old 06-25-2017, 08:50 PM
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Just went from 5.1 to 7.1.4 via adding a Denon 6300 and 4 Paradigm R-65Pro in ceiling speakers. Pretty stoked with the results so far. I've watched Mad Max 5.1.2 a dozen times, it sounds NOTHING like this good in 7.1.4 it's like a whole new movie. Gonna be rewatching quite a few UHDs I think! Sadly my basement is 'only' 1080p while we wait for reasonably priced 4K HDR projectors.
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post #2405 of 3108 Old 06-26-2017, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Kadath View Post
Just went from 5.1 to 7.1.4 via adding a Denon 6300 and 4 Paradigm R-65Pro in ceiling speakers. Pretty stoked with the results so far. I've watched Mad Max 5.1.2 a dozen times, it sounds NOTHING like this good in 7.1.4 it's like a whole new movie. Gonna be rewatching quite a few UHDs I think! Sadly my basement is 'only' 1080p while we wait for reasonably priced 4K HDR projectors.
Know the feeling. It was an improvement for me from 7.1 to 7.2.4.
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post #2406 of 3108 Old 06-27-2017, 11:29 PM
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A slightly different view on the required low end frequency abilities of an Atmos speaker. My surrounds (all Triad) will easily produce sub 80Hz. When I used Audyssey, it recommended 40Hz. But I would never consider crossing them over at 40Hz or even at 80Hz. Why? Contrary to what you may believe or have been told, surrounds (and Atmos) speakers get a lot more attention than you think. My SSP (Datasat RS20i) has bar graphs showing the input to every speaker in the room. I was blown away the first time I paid attention to this at how much energy is actually delivered to these speakers - on occasion much more than even to the mains. My LCR's are Triad Platinums and surrounds are Triad Silvers. The Silvers have a single 6 inch bass driver, while the Platinums have dual 10 inch drivers.

When my surrounds were crossed over at 80Hz and listening to a movie at or near reference, it was easy to hear strain in the surrounds in some action scenes. I cross my mains at 80Hz. Why would I think that a single 6" or 8" inch driver in a surround can keep up with dual 10 inch when they are both receiving the same level of output. They can't. Solution: raise the crossover of the surrounds. Mine has been at 120Hz for a very long time. And I would be more than pleased to show the incredibly smooth transition of the FR between the subs and the surrounds.

Now to the subject at hand. Just because, for example, your selected Atmos speaker can or can not produce well below 80Hz is not a reason to accept it or reject it. If my selected Atmos speaker could produce flat to 30Hz I would still cross them over at 120Hz. Again, contrary to what others have posted, these speakers get a lot of attention. Way more than you might have imagined. The entire premise of bass management is to have the bass speaker produce what the other speakers can not --- either at all or safely or without distortion.

Disclaimer 1: I am currently using Tannoy Di6 DC's for my height speakers (crossed over at 120Hz) but will be replacing them with 4 RSL's - also crossed over at 120Hz.

Disclaimer 2: I only have a single row of seats and am a very selfish theater owner. By that I mean, no-one who has visited my theater (except a few audio buddies) has ever heard anything that remotely sounds like what my theater will produce. So even if they are not at the MLP, they are way more than impressed, and it sounds way more than good enough to them. I, on the other hand, am as fanatical, OCD, and anal retentive as a home theater enthusiast can be when it comes to audio. My height speakers are to satisfy the MLP as is the way I run Dirac Live. So I get what I want and every single visitor gets an incredible movie watching experience. Win-win. I say this to say that when DoubleWing11 (who has in incredible room and system by the way) says it is important (for him) to be able to provide a uniform experience to all seats, he is demonstrating that he is NOT a selfish theater owner. There is no correct approach. So his selection of height speaker might be different than mine. Only on the measured bass extension of a potential height speaker do he and I (apparently) disagree.

I have looked at many, many possible options for height speakers and there is not a single one that I would consider crossing over at under 120Hz (short of something like Triad Golds ... or Platinums...).

YMMV.

BTW, if you listen to your movies at reference minus 15 or 20 or 30 then please ignore the above and I apologize for wasting your time.
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Last edited by audioguy; 06-27-2017 at 11:34 PM.
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post #2407 of 3108 Old 06-28-2017, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
A slightly different view on the required low end frequency abilities of an Atmos speaker. My surrounds (all Triad) will easily produce sub 80Hz. When I used Audyssey, it recommended 40Hz. But I would never consider crossing them over at 40Hz or even at 80Hz. Why? Contrary to what you may believe or have been told, surrounds (and Atmos) speakers get a lot more attention than you think. My SSP (Datasat RS20i) has bar graphs showing the input to every speaker in the room. I was blown away the first time I paid attention to this at how much energy is actually delivered to these speakers - on occasion much more than even to the mains. My LCR's are Triad Platinums and surrounds are Triad Silvers. The Silvers have a single 6 inch bass driver, while the Platinums have dual 10 inch drivers.

When my surrounds were crossed over at 80Hz and listening to a movie at or near reference, it was easy to hear strain in the surrounds in some action scenes. I cross my mains at 80Hz. Why would I think that a single 6" or 8" inch driver in a surround can keep up with dual 10 inch when they are both receiving the same level of output. They can't. Solution: raise the crossover of the surrounds. Mine has been at 120Hz for a very long time. And I would be more than pleased to show the incredibly smooth transition of the FR between the subs and the surrounds.

Now to the subject at hand. Just because, for example, your selected Atmos speaker can or can not produce well below 80Hz is not a reason to accept it or reject it. If my selected Atmos speaker could produce flat to 30Hz I would still cross them over at 120Hz. Again, contrary to what others have posted, these speakers get a lot of attention. Way more than you might have imagined. The entire premise of bass management is to have the bass speaker produce what the other speakers can not --- either at all or safely or without distortion.

Disclaimer 1: I am currently using Tannoy Di6 DC's for my height speakers (crossed over at 120Hz) but will be replacing them with 4 RSL's - also crossed over at 120Hz.

Disclaimer 2: I only have a single row of seats and am a very selfish theater owner. By that I mean, no-one who has visited my theater (except a few audio buddies) has ever heard anything that remotely sounds like what my theater will produce. So even if they are not at the MLP, they are way more than impressed, and it sounds way more than good enough to them. I, on the other hand, am as fanatical, OCD, and anal retentive as a home theater enthusiast can be when it comes to audio. My height speakers are to satisfy the MLP as is the way I run Dirac Live. So I get what I want and every single visitor gets an incredible movie watching experience. Win-win. I say this to say that when DoubleWing11 (who has in incredible room and system by the way) says it is important (for him) to be able to provide a uniform experience to all seats, he is demonstrating that he is NOT a selfish theater owner. There is no correct approach. So his selection of height speaker might be different than mine. Only on the measured bass extension of a potential height speaker do he and I (apparently) disagree.

I have looked at many, many possible options for height speakers and there is not a single one that I would consider crossing over at under 120Hz (short of something like Triad Golds ... or Platinums...).

YMMV.

BTW, if you listen to your movies at reference minus 15 or 20 or 30 then please ignore the above and I apologize for wasting your time.
Well said and after a year or so of research this led me to the RSL's as well(pre-orders are ready by the way) and will be crossed at 100 hz (works best in my room due to R&D with the on ceiling I have in place) even though Audyssey determines 80hz. I'm looking forward to what they will bring to my single row configuration as well
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post #2408 of 3108 Old 06-28-2017, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Mrbonus View Post
I really want to but man those 9 channel recievers are pricey!
I am not an audiophile nor an expert on Polk speakers but having recently built a 7.1.4 setup in my basement using all Polk in wall/ceiling speakers I can tell you my system sounds great. I went with the 265-RT's for my surrounds, 255c-RT for my center channel, 70-RT's for my Atmos and a DSW Pro 440wi sub. I am running this all through my Denon x6200W and an AudioSource amp. My basement ceiling is not even because of a soffit for some HVAC and the Atmos effects still sound great.
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post #2409 of 3108 Old 07-05-2017, 09:07 PM
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Lookin for a little help with my Atmos setup.

I am planning a 7.2.4 setup.
I have RBH's MC-815L for my atmos speakers. They have a fixed 15-degree offset, with a swivel tweeter.
My room layout is 17' deep by 12.5' wide with 7'6" ceilings.
Relative to the MLP (center of the room, 2/3 of the way back), where do I place my speakers in the ceilings? My trig calculations indicate it would need to be basically 1 foot in front and 1 foot behind (based on the 15-degree offset), but I'm thinking that seems pretty close. Thoughts?
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post #2410 of 3108 Old 07-06-2017, 07:22 AM
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Check the Dolby white paper on their website;

For my 5.1.4 set-up the front ceilings are ~ 4 feet in front and rear are 2 feet; our MLP is only 3 feet off back wall (room is 17 ft wide & front speakers are 2 feet from opposite wall)

Primary set-up 5.2.4; Yamaha A2050, Paired w/Parasound P5 & ATI 522NC 2 channel amp
Revel F206 fronts & Revel M16 rears; 2 Outlaw X12 Subs & 4 RSL C34e in-ceilings

Secondary 5.1: Denon S900W, Polk LSiM703/704C, Polk RC80i in-ceiling rears, RSL Speedwoofer 10s
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post #2411 of 3108 Old 07-06-2017, 08:19 AM
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Well.... I got the Polk MC80's up in the living room for surround speakers. They sound really nice. I will keep them up in that room. I did Preorder 4 of the RSL's as well for the basement theater room. Hopefully those will ship out soon.

For content, are DVD's the only way to enjoy Atmos??? I saw Netflix will start having it down the road as well.
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post #2412 of 3108 Old 07-06-2017, 08:57 AM
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i stuck a few weeks ago four klipsch pro 6502-l-thx in-wall speakers in my ceiling. feeding them with emotiva xpa-5 gen 1 power amp.

i have watched a few atmos movies and i cant imagine i can stuff some other speaker up there that will give me a better audible experience at _any_ price point.
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post #2413 of 3108 Old 07-06-2017, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fonz5000 View Post
For content, are DVD's the only way to enjoy Atmos??? I saw Netflix will start having it down the road as well.
Not the ONLY way, but some might argue it's the best way from a SQ stand point. Hacksaw Ridge UHD is just amazing, sweet Atmos content. Not sure what it would sound like say over a Netflix stream? Probably pretty good.

You're also not limited to Atmos with height speakers - if your receiver / processor includes the Dolby Surround algorithm, it will upmix content into the height channels.

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post #2414 of 3108 Old 07-09-2017, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fonz5000 View Post
For content, are DVD's the only way to enjoy Atmos??? I saw Netflix will start having it down the road as well.
Vudu has a limited number of Atmos titles. I would guess that Apple, Microsoft, Sony and Amazon will add Atmos content soon for the Apple TV, Xbox & PS4 stores and Amazon Video. Other streaming services, broadcasters and cable providers will jump on the bandwagon over the next few years.

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Adding Atmos in ceiling speakers soon
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post #2415 of 3108 Old 07-12-2017, 12:47 PM
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I posted this in another forum and didn't get much response. Maybe you can help.

I have a question about upgrading my HT to Dolby Atmos. I've just upgraded to an Anthem AVM 60 from an AVM 20 using their 20% discount offer. I would like to upgrade my current 7.1 system to a 7.1.4. The room is about 20 x 19 (garage) that I converted into a recording studio control room in 1992. I'm using the Mackie HR824s for LCR, Mackie HRS120 sub, and 4 Event 20/20s for the surrounds. The Anthem has XLR balanced outputs that work great with these (old) studio monitors which maybe problematic given whatever is used for the Height 1 and 2 left and rights. Are there appropriate powered Atmos speakers you could recommend that can receive XLR cables that aren't too large or do I have to rig some sort of work around with with a separate amplifier and non powered speakers? Or do I need to resort to a Dolby Atmos Enabled speaker situation on top of the front LR and rear surround LR which many have said works but isn't as good as ceiling speakers?

Using more bookshelf monitors represents only an aesthetic appearance problem because the Mackies and Events are almost a foot deep and the ceiling height is about 8'4." Because it was a control room at one point there's recessed lighting. Even without angling them toward the listening position they would protrude pretty low in the room. I was hoping for something perhaps 6" deep with the proper angle already built into the cabinet mounted to a flat ceiling might be available. But add to that self powered and XLR connections I maybe way off base in dreamworld. It could be I'll have to mount them on the left and right side walls at ceiling level or go the Dolby Atmos Enabled speakers route. I've been away from all of this (including AVS) for 14 years so forgive me.

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post #2416 of 3108 Old 07-12-2017, 12:59 PM
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Looking back to the start of the thread, the OP started with an SVS Ultra setup. However back at that time the SVS Elevation speakers weren't released. I'm looking at buying an SVS Ultra setup myself and definitely considering 4 "overhead" channels. Should I go with SVS Elevation speakers in either a Front/Rear placement or on the Sides as shown on the SVS website or am I better off with in-ceiling? If I go with in-ceiling, what brand/model would match the sound of the Ultra line? At this point, since I'm redoing the whole room and tearing everything down, I want the best solution, so I'm fine with either options. I just want to know what would yield the best results.
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post #2417 of 3108 Old 07-12-2017, 01:36 PM
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I'm waiting on new LCR Salks to be completed for the cap on my system rebuild, but in the interim, I'm listening to my old reliable 804m B&Ws. I have a 5.2.2 system (expanded to 5.2.4) and I chose low end Polk RC80i for the in ceiling atmos...Audyssey crossed them over at 110 in my space. I've only played 2 atmos coded blu ray disc so the sample size is small...I'm pleased so far.

Note: I have 3 pairs of Noble Fidelity L85mkii in ceiling speaker for whole house music...they kick butt for in wall/ceiling speakers...I just wasn't sure if the atmos speakers got enough signal to justify that kind of price.
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post #2418 of 3108 Old 07-12-2017, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EaZy-E View Post
Looking back to the start of the thread, the OP started with an SVS Ultra setup. However back at that time the SVS Elevation speakers weren't released. I'm looking at buying an SVS Ultra setup myself and definitely considering 4 "overhead" channels. Should I go with SVS Elevation speakers in either a Front/Rear placement or on the Sides as shown on the SVS website or am I better off with in-ceiling? If I go with in-ceiling, what brand/model would match the sound of the Ultra line? At this point, since I'm redoing the whole room and tearing everything down, I want the best solution, so I'm fine with either options. I just want to know what would yield the best results.
Just one man's opinion so don't take this as the gospel.

In my limited experience with atmos coded movies...one has a scene where it was raining atop a roof...with my in ceiling speakers...3.5' in front of the primary listening position with the tweeters angles towards the seats, and the 2nd pair about 6' behind them one ft off the back wall...you could almost feel like you were in that scene hearing the rain drops hitting the roof which was pretty cool.

You might get the same effect with the Elevation speakers, but I've never heard them....pro reviews are pretty good, and SVS is certainly gaining steam as strong performing speakers for a value oriented price.

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post #2419 of 3108 Old 07-12-2017, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EaZy-E View Post
Looking back to the start of the thread, the OP started with an SVS Ultra setup. However back at that time the SVS Elevation speakers weren't released. I'm looking at buying an SVS Ultra setup myself and definitely considering 4 "overhead" channels. Should I go with SVS Elevation speakers in either a Front/Rear placement or on the Sides as shown on the SVS website or am I better off with in-ceiling? If I go with in-ceiling, what brand/model would match the sound of the Ultra line? At this point, since I'm redoing the whole room and tearing everything down, I want the best solution, so I'm fine with either options. I just want to know what would yield the best results.
I believe you'd be better off going with 4 x in-ceilings, since you can. I would not worry too much about matching your Atmos speakers to the mains. SVS might even have a solid recommendation for you as to what might be a good match as an in-ceiling, but really, any decent quality speaker should be fine. Scope out your space, know where they will go (optimally - you can use the recommendations on Dolby's website for pointers) and make sure you can place them there. Important - know what size cutout you can make based on the ceiling structure and search for speakers in that cut-out size-range. The RSL C34E is a very popular speaker, inexpensive, good quality - but it's a sizeable cutout.

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post #2420 of 3108 Old 07-12-2017, 02:49 PM
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I've been running a 5.1.2 system for a while using Front upfiring Atmos-enabled speakers, but have been wanting to install ceiling speakers instead for quite some time and I'm ready to take the plunge. I had been planning to get the cheap Micca M-8Cs which people seem to like, but I have a question about them.

These will be going in the ceiling of the living room in my apartment. I plan to eventually sell the place in about 5 years and I'd want to leave the speakers installed when I do. Since I wouldn't expect the buyer to necessarily want Atmos speakers, I'd like to get speakers that will be good for Atmos as well as just playing music in the apartment. I'm open to spending more money than the price of the Miccas to get something that will fulfill both needs if the Miccas will be lacking in the music department.

Any thoughts?
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post #2421 of 3108 Old 07-12-2017, 04:13 PM
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Micca's should be fine for both; also Polk has some inexpensive choices. I also have 4 RSLs which for me are VG for music

Primary set-up 5.2.4; Yamaha A2050, Paired w/Parasound P5 & ATI 522NC 2 channel amp
Revel F206 fronts & Revel M16 rears; 2 Outlaw X12 Subs & 4 RSL C34e in-ceilings

Secondary 5.1: Denon S900W, Polk LSiM703/704C, Polk RC80i in-ceiling rears, RSL Speedwoofer 10s
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post #2422 of 3108 Old 07-12-2017, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2channellover View Post
Just one man's opinion so don't take this as the gospel.

In my limited experience with atmos coded movies...one has a scene where it was raining atop a roof...with my in ceiling speakers...3.5' in front of the primary listening position with the tweeters angles towards the seats, and the 2nd pair about 6' behind them one ft off the back wall...you could almost feel like you were in that scene hearing the rain drops hitting the roof which was pretty cool.

You might get the same effect with the Elevation speakers, but I've never heard them....pro reviews are pretty good, and SVS is certainly gaining steam as strong performing speakers for a value oriented price.
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Originally Posted by Jonas2 View Post
I believe you'd be better off going with 4 x in-ceilings, since you can. I would not worry too much about matching your Atmos speakers to the mains. SVS might even have a solid recommendation for you as to what might be a good match as an in-ceiling, but really, any decent quality speaker should be fine. Scope out your space, know where they will go (optimally - you can use the recommendations on Dolby's website for pointers) and make sure you can place them there. Important - know what size cutout you can make based on the ceiling structure and search for speakers in that cut-out size-range. The RSL C34E is a very popular speaker, inexpensive, good quality - but it's a sizeable cutout.
I've been looking at the Dolby website quite a lot lately, trying to figure this out, also inquired to SVS as far as placement goes. There's a lot of information floating around, but it's still very difficult to get a clear answer, and obviously since I'm renovating, I don't want to build something and realize I made a mistake later on when everything is finished.

According to SVS customer service, ideal placement for Atmos would be on the side of the listening position. I was told 2' in front and 2' in back of MLP. Is that really enough? My room is dedicated to HT, 13' X 15', 7ft ceiling. If I go In-Ceiling, do I go for the same positioning? Is my room big enough to accommodate 4 Atmos speakers? Also speaking of In-Ceiling speakers, does the size of the woofer really matter? Like do I go for basic speakers, or I invest in higher end/bigger in-ceiling ones to get a better overall experience?

I did ask SVS about which In-Ceiling speakers they'd recommend to match the Ultra line, sadly my question was never addressed , so I'm guessing they are really pushing the Elevation speakers which is understandable. I did read many great reviews, and I would like to stay within the same company for all my speakers to match tone, but if in-ceiling is the better solution, I'd rather go with that. I can get some pretty decent Paradigm or KEF in-ceiling speakers for roughly the same price Elevation speakers goes.

If I may ask another question. When it comes to surround speakers in an Atmos setup, is it better to go for monopole or bipole? Also I'm guessing they should be placed low enough to ensure there's separation with the In-Ceiling channels? I'm coming off a 5.1 bookshelf based system with monopole for surround, never had bipole/dipole and I was still happy. I'm thinking of running the Ultra Surround in duet mode for 7.1, but also considering the Ultra bookshelf as surround channels if that does a better job. 5.1.4 is my main goal or 7.1.4 if I go with the Ultra Surround in duet mode, whatever sounds best.

Thanks so much for your help!

Thanks for the feedback, much appreciated to get some info in this very confusing subject.
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post #2423 of 3108 Old 07-12-2017, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by EaZy-E View Post
I've been looking at the Dolby website quite a lot lately, trying to figure this out, also inquired to SVS as far as placement goes. There's a lot of information floating around, but it's still very difficult to get a clear answer, and obviously since I'm renovating, I don't want to build something and realize I made a mistake later on when everything is finished.

According to SVS customer service, ideal placement for Atmos would be on the side of the listening position. I was told 2' in front and 2' in back of MLP. Is that really enough? My room is dedicated to HT, 13' X 15', 7ft ceiling. If I go In-Ceiling, do I go for the same positioning? Is my room big enough to accommodate 4 Atmos speakers? Also speaking of In-Ceiling speakers, does the size of the woofer really matter? Like do I go for basic speakers, or I invest in higher end/bigger in-ceiling ones to get a better overall experience?

I did ask SVS about which In-Ceiling speakers they'd recommend to match the Ultra line, sadly my question was never addressed , so I'm guessing they are really pushing the Elevation speakers which is understandable. I did read many great reviews, and I would like to stay within the same company for all my speakers to match tone, but if in-ceiling is the better solution, I'd rather go with that. I can get some pretty decent Paradigm or KEF in-ceiling speakers for roughly the same price Elevation speakers goes.

If I may ask another question. When it comes to surround speakers in an Atmos setup, is it better to go for monopole or bipole? Also I'm guessing they should be placed low enough to ensure there's separation with the In-Ceiling channels? I'm coming off a 5.1 bookshelf based system with monopole for surround, never had bipole/dipole and I was still happy. I'm thinking of running the Ultra Surround in duet mode for 7.1, but also considering the Ultra bookshelf as surround channels if that does a better job. 5.1.4 is my main goal or 7.1.4 if I go with the Ultra Surround in duet mode, whatever sounds best.

Thanks so much for your help!

Thanks for the feedback, much appreciated to get some info in this very confusing subject.

Surrounds speakers in general...keeping the surrounds in the same brand and class within the brand is never a bad idea. That said, it's not really necessary unless you're going to be playing a lot of multi channel audio. For movies, the surrounds don't get enough dialogue to be that concerned about it. Agree with Jonas here...I wouldn't worry about timbre matching for atmos speakers.

In ceiling placement...I worked off this... https://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/do...-4-setups.html
If the speakers have some degree of dispersion I think we have some fudge factor relative to Dolby's guide.

5.1.4 vs 7.1.4...this largely depends on how much space you have behind the main seating area...A comfortable distance is probably 6'+...my HT space is 17w x 18d x9h, dedicated but not symmetrical and not ideal. I only have 5' from the back wall to the MLP. With the side surrounds slightly behind the MLP, rear surrounds would be right on top of them so 5.1.4 was the best fit. For you...it seems like you have a blank sheet of paper to work with, wire for 7.1.4...start with 5.1.4 and expand if you see fit.

Sound quality for atmos...based on the two atmos demos...I decided on lower end Polks...to date, I'm okay with them.
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post #2424 of 3108 Old 07-12-2017, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by EaZy-E View Post
I've been looking at the Dolby website quite a lot lately, trying to figure this out, also inquired to SVS as far as placement goes. There's a lot of information floating around, but it's still very difficult to get a clear answer, and obviously since I'm renovating, I don't want to build something and realize I made a mistake later on when everything is finished.

According to SVS customer service, ideal placement for Atmos would be on the side of the listening position. I was told 2' in front and 2' in back of MLP. Is that really enough? My room is dedicated to HT, 13' X 15', 7ft ceiling. If I go In-Ceiling, do I go for the same positioning? Is my room big enough to accommodate 4 Atmos speakers? Also speaking of In-Ceiling speakers, does the size of the woofer really matter? Like do I go for basic speakers, or I invest in higher end/bigger in-ceiling ones to get a better overall experience?
O.K., I don't know that I'm following what they are recommending by ideal placement being at the "side" - it could be simply as already suggested that they want to sell their speakers, that on top of not addressing your question about what might be a good match (in-ceiling) - perhaps they simply don't know, or just want to sell their speakers. Fair enough! 2 feet in front and two feet behind the MLP, too close. I might push a pair two feet in front if it was a x.x.2 system, but not a x.x.4. A pair of rears could do O.K. at 2' behind MLP, but for both pairs - you need more separation.

As the way I interpret Dolby's recommendations - whatever the height difference is between your ears and your ceiling would be the ideal distance fore and aft of your MLP for speaker placement. That sets you at 45 degrees. Of course, Dolby allows for variation to still achieve a nice effect. While this was possible for me to do with my fronts, the rears had to be closer to the MLP, but they are still within the Dolby recommendations - and the effect is fantastic in my opinion. The distance between my speakers front to back is about 8 feet. Side to side is not as far apart as I'd like, only 6', but I had to compromise between aesthetics and hard structures in the ceiling, so it is what it is. Single seating row, 3 person couch, and it does sound good in my environment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EaZy-E View Post
I did read many great reviews, and I would like to stay within the same company for all my speakers to match tone, but if in-ceiling is the better solution, I'd rather go with that. I can get some pretty decent Paradigm or KEF in-ceiling speakers for roughly the same price Elevation speakers goes.
The Paradigms or KEFs will probably be fine. If you can, get something with an aimable tweeter, though not the end of the world if you can't. Mine have them, and I've tried both ways - tweeters aimed straight down, and tweeters aimed at MLP. It does seem to render a bit more clarity with the tweeters being aimed, but it's not a night and day difference. Still, worth it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EaZy-E View Post
If I may ask another question. When it comes to surround speakers in an Atmos setup, is it better to go for monopole or bipole? Also I'm guessing they should be placed low enough to ensure there's separation with the In-Ceiling channels? I'm coming off a 5.1 bookshelf based system with monopole for surround, never had bipole/dipole and I was still happy. I'm thinking of running the Ultra Surround in duet mode for 7.1, but also considering the Ultra bookshelf as surround channels if that does a better job. 5.1.4 is my main goal or 7.1.4 if I go with the Ultra Surround in duet mode, whatever sounds best.

Thanks so much for your help!

Thanks for the feedback, much appreciated to get some info in this very confusing subject.
Depends on who you talk to and your environment. Have a read here:

http://www.audioholics.com/loudspeak...pole-vs-bipole

And yes, you should place them low enough to get separation from the height layer. Tweeters at ear-level, but they can be above too, but I wouldn't go too fat above. One of the surround rooms at my local dealer utilizes bipoles mounted relatively high, and it is to good effect. That said, I prefer my monopoles at ear level - it seems magnified, and I like that - but you can detect them depending on what's coming through, and a lot of people might not like that.

7.2.4 System: Display: Sony XBR-65X930D; Processing: Anthem AVM60
Mains:
Paradigm Prestige 85F and 55C; Side / Rear Surrounds: Totem Acoustic Tribe III / Tribe I; Amplification: D-Sonic M3a-2800-7 (7ch. x 400w)
ATMOS:
Definitive Technology DI8R; Amplification: Class D Audio SDS-470C (4ch. x 300w)
Subwoofers:
2 x SVS-SB13Ultras; Media: Oppo UDP-203, Pioneer CLD-59
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post #2425 of 3108 Old 07-13-2017, 05:09 AM
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Quote:
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O.K., I don't know that I'm following what they are recommending by ideal placement being at the "side" - it could be simply as already suggested that they want to sell their speakers, that on top of not addressing your question about what might be a good match (in-ceiling) - perhaps they simply don't know, or just want to sell their speakers. Fair enough! 2 feet in front and two feet behind the MLP, too close. I might push a pair two feet in front if it was a x.x.2 system, but not a x.x.4. A pair of rears could do O.K. at 2' behind MLP, but for both pairs - you need more separation.

As the way I interpret Dolby's recommendations - whatever the height difference is between your ears and your ceiling would be the ideal distance fore and aft of your MLP for speaker placement. That sets you at 45 degrees. Of course, Dolby allows for variation to still achieve a nice effect. While this was possible for me to do with my fronts, the rears had to be closer to the MLP, but they are still within the Dolby recommendations - and the effect is fantastic in my opinion. The distance between my speakers front to back is about 8 feet. Side to side is not as far apart as I'd like, only 6', but I had to compromise between aesthetics and hard structures in the ceiling, so it is what it is. Single seating row, 3 person couch, and it does sound good in my environment.

My couch is probably going to be between 24"-30" from the back wall, so I was thinking more about 5.1.4 than 7.1.4, although like you guys suggested, I'll just pre-wire for more speakers should I ever change my mind, but really I'll start with 5.1.4. How much separation between the 2 pairs would you say is best, depth wise? Looking at the Dolby website, it seems to be symmetrical?
At what distance from the side wall should they be ideally? I was thinking maybe 18" from the side wall on either sides, which means I'd have about 10ft of horizontal separation between the 2, have the back pair 24"-30" behind the couch and the front pair at 36" in front? Makes sense?


Looking at the Pardigm website, I was thinking of something like CI-PRO-P80 which has a 30 degree angled soundfield?
https://www.paradigm.com/products-cu.../page=overview
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post #2426 of 3108 Old 07-13-2017, 06:09 AM
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I posted this in another forum and didn't get much response. Maybe you can help.

I have a question about upgrading my HT to Dolby Atmos. I've just upgraded to an Anthem AVM 60 from an AVM 20 using their 20% discount offer. I would like to upgrade my current 7.1 system to a 7.1.4. The room is about 20 x 19 (garage) that I converted into a recording studio control room in 1992. I'm using the Mackie HR824s for LCR, Mackie HRS120 sub, and 4 Event 20/20s for the surrounds. The Anthem has XLR balanced outputs that work great with these (old) studio monitors which maybe problematic given whatever is used for the Height 1 and 2 left and rights. Are there appropriate powered Atmos speakers you could recommend that can receive XLR cables that aren't too large or do I have to rig some sort of work around with with a separate amplifier and non powered speakers? Or do I need to resort to a Dolby Atmos Enabled speaker situation on top of the front LR and rear surround LR which many have said works but isn't as good as ceiling speakers?

Using more bookshelf monitors represents only an aesthetic appearance problem because the Mackies and Events are almost a foot deep and the ceiling height is about 8'4." Because it was a control room at one point there's recessed lighting. Even without angling them toward the listening position they would protrude pretty low in the room. I was hoping for something perhaps 6" deep with the proper angle already built into the cabinet mounted to a flat ceiling might be available. But add to that self powered and XLR connections I maybe way off base in dreamworld. It could be I'll have to mount them on the left and right side walls at ceiling level or go the Dolby Atmos Enabled speakers route. I've been away from all of this (including AVS) for 14 years so forgive me.
At 8'4" I would use something flush-mount or customize something that didn't get much below 8'(if you wanted to try powered). I think going powered(120-volt) would be way more trouble than it's worth (power/xlr cables and brace for weight) and it would be difficult to find something ergonomic. Atmos is typically x-over'd at 80Hz or higher and requires far less power than your fronts. You've got good studio reference monitors with an elite AV preamp - if you like you're fronts(no plans to change), I'd recommend a cheaper multi-channel amp (maybe Emotiva A-500?), run some decent speaker cable(as short as possible) and use this thread to find what ceiling speakers would best match your system(similar tweets, maybe directional if single PLL, or wider dispersion if 2+ rows).
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post #2427 of 3108 Old 07-13-2017, 08:53 AM
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My couch is probably going to be between 24"-30" from the back wall, so I was thinking more about 5.1.4 than 7.1.4, although like you guys suggested, I'll just pre-wire for more speakers should I ever change my mind, but really I'll start with 5.1.4. How much separation between the 2 pairs would you say is best, depth wise? Looking at the Dolby website, it seems to be symmetrical?
At what distance from the side wall should they be ideally? I was thinking maybe 18" from the side wall on either sides, which means I'd have about 10ft of horizontal separation between the 2, have the back pair 24"-30" behind the couch and the front pair at 36" in front? Makes sense?


Looking at the Pardigm website, I was thinking of something like CI-PRO-P80 which has a 30 degree angled soundfield?
https://www.paradigm.com/products-cu.../page=overview
5.1.4 is totally fine. You'll really enjoy it, so don't sweat the 7 channels. If you really want to improve, go for dual subwoofers over surround backs. Yes, the Dolby website will look symmetric because they are placing them at the optimal recommended angle. Your speaker manufacturer will recommend a minimum distance from the wall, but 2' in my opinion is a good baseline. The speakers will interact somewhat with boundaries, but I don't believe for Atmos that this is overly critical, others may disagree. I couldn't quite pull it off; my rears are about 21" from rear wall, and right side about 22", left side no boundaries for all practical purposes. (my whole setup is asymmetric with regards to the space itself).

18" from the walls would work, but it is just my opinion that you should pull them in if you can. 10ft. of separation is fine, and you can go less if you need to. As I mentioned, I've only got 6' of left-right separation, and it still works very well. I would definitely not go less than 6' though, I feel this is pushing it as it is in rendering the intended effects to their maximum potential. Your rear placement is obviously more limited with the couch-wall distance, so these might end up closer to the rear wall than 2', but that's O.K. - you just don't want these things overhead. Do some measurements relative to your seating position and see at what distances from the rear wall would the speakers fall within the Dolby recommendations, if any, and go for the best compromise of distance, aesthetics, and structural limitations (if any). Push your fronts farther forward if you can. Measure the distance from the ceiling to ear level from where you sit - and use that as your distance forward from MLP if you can accommodate it.

All this said, don't lose sleep over trying to get it PERFECT, and keep in mind these are my opinions based off of my experience, YMMV!

The Paradigms will work fine, but you could save money and go with the 6.5". Definitely don't need to break the bank on Atmos speakers. Spend money on subwoofers.

7.2.4 System: Display: Sony XBR-65X930D; Processing: Anthem AVM60
Mains:
Paradigm Prestige 85F and 55C; Side / Rear Surrounds: Totem Acoustic Tribe III / Tribe I; Amplification: D-Sonic M3a-2800-7 (7ch. x 400w)
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Definitive Technology DI8R; Amplification: Class D Audio SDS-470C (4ch. x 300w)
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2 x SVS-SB13Ultras; Media: Oppo UDP-203, Pioneer CLD-59
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post #2428 of 3108 Old 07-13-2017, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
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At 8'4" I would use something flush-mount or customize something that didn't get much below 8'(if you wanted to try powered). I think going powered(120-volt) would be way more trouble than it's worth (power/xlr cables and brace for weight) and it would be difficult to find something ergonomic. Atmos is typically x-over'd at 80Hz or higher and requires far less power than your fronts. You've got good studio reference monitors with an elite AV preamp - if you like you're fronts(no plans to change), I'd recommend a cheaper multi-channel amp (maybe Emotiva A-500?), run some decent speaker cable(as short as possible) and use this thread to find what ceiling speakers would best match your system(similar tweets, maybe directional if single PLL, or wider dispersion if 2+ rows).
Thanks gmore. At this point given what I've learned/seen so far I'm in agreement with you. However, I don't think in ceiling speakers is really practical given this room is a garage that I converted into a recording studio control room in 1992 so there are 4 large air conditioning runs and lots of ceiling recessed lighting, much sound insulation, 3/4" plywood and an attic above that filled with all kinds of stuff. Digging into the ceiling doesn't seem like a good idea but maybe I should check with an expert about it.

A salesman at Magnolia Home Theater Design (i.e. Best Buy) recommended I take a look at SVS Prime Elevation Speakers so I went to their site and online "chatted" with somebody connected with them. This looks like it might be a good solution. They are already "angled" in their cabinets and using their wall/ceiling bracket given the dimensions they would stick down maybe as far as 9" from the ceiling and slant up from there and they weigh only 7.8 lbs.

Does the Emotiva A-500 or any other cheaper multi-channel amplifier have XLR Balanced inputs? I'm thinking I need that in order to run Anthem's Room Correction program from the AV 60 and if possible I'd really rather not spend $4000 on an Anthem A5 for sound objects. If I can achieve some sort of SPL parity from the cheaper amplifier first, I would think I could then run ARC from the AV 60 and get a good result. Or maybe that wouldn't even be necessary?

Thanks again!

Mark
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post #2429 of 3108 Old 07-13-2017, 10:16 AM
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I pre-ordered some RSL's C34's. Did anyone else do this and have any update on when they will be shipping?
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post #2430 of 3108 Old 07-13-2017, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonas2 View Post
5.1.4 is totally fine. You'll really enjoy it, so don't sweat the 7 channels. If you really want to improve, go for dual subwoofers over surround backs. Yes, the Dolby website will look symmetric because they are placing them at the optimal recommended angle. Your speaker manufacturer will recommend a minimum distance from the wall, but 2' in my opinion is a good baseline. The speakers will interact somewhat with boundaries, but I don't believe for Atmos that this is overly critical, others may disagree. I couldn't quite pull it off; my rears are about 21" from rear wall, and right side about 22", left side no boundaries for all practical purposes. (my whole setup is asymmetric with regards to the space itself).

18" from the walls would work, but it is just my opinion that you should pull them in if you can. 10ft. of separation is fine, and you can go less if you need to. As I mentioned, I've only got 6' of left-right separation, and it still works very well. I would definitely not go less than 6' though, I feel this is pushing it as it is in rendering the intended effects to their maximum potential. Your rear placement is obviously more limited with the couch-wall distance, so these might end up closer to the rear wall than 2', but that's O.K. - you just don't want these things overhead. Do some measurements relative to your seating position and see at what distances from the rear wall would the speakers fall within the Dolby recommendations, if any, and go for the best compromise of distance, aesthetics, and structural limitations (if any). Push your fronts farther forward if you can. Measure the distance from the ceiling to ear level from where you sit - and use that as your distance forward from MLP if you can accommodate it.

All this said, don't lose sleep over trying to get it PERFECT, and keep in mind these are my opinions based off of my experience, YMMV!

The Paradigms will work fine, but you could save money and go with the 6.5". Definitely don't need to break the bank on Atmos speakers. Spend money on subwoofers.

Thanks for sharing your experience, this gives me a ton of info to try and plan things out. I know I'm a bit of perfectionist LOL, but I get your point. It's hard to really have a perfect/by the book setup.


The only piece of speaker that I might keep from my previous system is my SVS PB-2000. With the space that I have, I can't go dual unless I decide to go with wall mounted SVS Ultra Bookshelves rather than the Ultra Towers. I've had bookshelves for the last 12 years and after hearing a side-by-side comparison of bookshelves vs towers at a store, I enjoyed the fuller/bigger sound coming from the towers so I was heading in that direction. If I stay with a single sub, I might start with my single PB-2000 and upgrade to the PB-16 Ultra which looks amazing. Since I love foundation shaking bass, I think I'm a good candidate for the PB-16 Ultra. I was told on another thread that it would be better for me than going dual?
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