Official Reaction Audio Thread - Page 115 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3421 of 3591 Old 08-21-2016, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Billy p View Post
John...if your happy with your current set-up and feel it sounds terrific....than... why worry about it and how others will perceive what value they represent vs. other speakers...in fact only you can answer by doing a in home evaluation with said speakers.

Your biggest concern IMO...going forward is that RA remains a viable & alternative solution for new and existing customers...for parts and/or CS beyond the years of their warranty.

My best suggestion is don't go down that rabbit hole...if you're 100% satisfied...


I guess I'm mainly concerned with the quality of my audio system vs the amount of money I spent and if they're aligned. Let's say I bought a Mercedes that's having some transmission trouble. Well, at the end of the day I'm still driving a Mercedes. Horrible analogy aside, is that the situation I'm in? Or did I buy a Honda Civic at a Mercedes price tag?
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post #3422 of 3591 Old 08-21-2016, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by John Robinson View Post
I guess I'm mainly concerned with the quality of my audio system vs the amount of money I spent and if they're aligned. Let's say I bought a Mercedes that's having some transmission trouble. Well, at the end of the day I'm still driving a Mercedes. Horrible analogy aside, is that the situation I'm in? Or did I buy a Honda Civic at a Mercedes price tag?
From what I understand the Radian drivers are considered by most to be excellent, so that's really what you're paying for. They are used in some very expensive speakers out there but I don't know how well they are reviewed. The CX speakers are at the very least a dynamic high efficiency speaker that has very good power handling. If you take the driver out of the cabinet they are very impressive. The problems with some of the RA speakers are with the crossovers and quality of assembly not the drivers themselves.

So in car terms, you bought a Civic with a Mercedes engine but at the price of a Civic. When the CX line was first announced people were doubtful they would be sustainable for RA due to the low profit margins knowing the cost of the drivers. This explains why corners were cut in assembly and why the business model did not work.
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post #3423 of 3591 Old 08-21-2016, 08:20 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Docethic View Post
From what I understand the Radian drivers are considered by most to be excellent, so that's really what you're paying for. They are used in some very expensive speakers out there but I don't know how well they are reviewed. The CX speakers are at the very least a dynamic high efficiency speaker that has very good power handling. If you take the driver out of the cabinet they are very impressive. The problems with some of the RA speakers are with the crossovers and quality of assembly not the drivers themselves.

So in car terms, you bought a Civic with a Mercedes engine but at the price of a Civic. When the CX line was first announced people were doubtful they would be sustainable for RA due to the low profit margins knowing the cost of the drivers. This explains why corners were cut in assembly and why the business model did not work.
I wouldn't be too sure about your evaluation of the radian drivers. Here is a recent comment from Tom V about those radian drivers:

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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

Jim and I ordered a pair of the upper echelon radian 12" co-ax designs for evaluation a while back...maybe 2(?) years ago now...not really sure. Impressions were not good, not at all. When I unboxed them I thought..."okay, these LOOK very nice" It was all down hill from there.

We also ordered a couple of the crossovers radian recommended we use with them. We had no intention of using an off-the-shelf crossover but figured it can't hurt to see how they worked. Ugh. It was so bad we thought they had sent us the wrong part #. Nope, after a few calls to their "tech" guys they confirmed we had the correct crossovers. Ok, so these $60 each(?) crossovers that were falling apart when we got them so we had re-solder/secure a few things AND they measured this awful? Not a good sign. But not a deal-breaker, like I said we never intended to use them for more than passing curiosity anyway.

The drivers were just as bad. First one assembly was built *off* so we had to try to re align one of the motors. But both units had raw FR measurements on our Clio system that were so bad there was no way we were going to waste any time even TRYING to get them to work with a passive network. Now this is one model out of I don't know how many they sell so it is a limited sample size to be sure. On the other hand, when we did voice our concern about the various build quality/performance issues no one there seemed to have much interest and we were even questioned why we were worried about poor measurements----we were told to just bolt them together and see how they sounded(sound familiar?). Now, if the measurements were OKAY, just not great, we probably would have done just that. But the measurements were so bad, I mean *bad*. We actually sent them back and asked for a refund. And Jim/I have been purchasing driver samples of some sort for almost 20 years now. And I have *never* asked for a refund for any of them, ever. If they didn't meet our expectations, hey, that's life. That's why we order 5-10 different designs at a time, just to see what platform works best for our goals and we can customize if from there for complete optimization. So we're USED to rejecting >90% in these scenarios. But these were just *so* bad there was no way they were keeping our money.



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post #3424 of 3591 Old 08-21-2016, 08:28 AM
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Not surprised.
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post #3425 of 3591 Old 08-21-2016, 09:33 AM
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@Brian Fineberg - that's interesting. I wonder if that driver was an anomaly or representative. Do the drivers that Radian sells have measurements? Or did people simply see the MSRP of the Radian drivers that Reaction was using and say "well they're using pricey drivers so the parts of the CX series are quality."?
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post #3426 of 3591 Old 08-21-2016, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post
I wouldn't be too sure about your evaluation of the radian drivers. Here is a recent comment from Tom V about those radian drivers:
OK, you guys keep bringing him up and he has even checked himself into this rather controversial Thread concerning another manufacturer so here goes. Tom V and Ron Stimpson were “DIY’ers” who started SVS with their Sonotube based subs. They were very aggressive in the Forums (being banned several times) but found good business success out of the gate. They had a rabid following and an unashamed guerrilla marketing strategy. They (Tom in particular) had troubles with other manufacturers due in no small part to their tendency to opine negatively on others products. The quote by Tom on the Radian drivers is a perfect example with anecdotal critiquing and no data.

Tom is a smart marketer and has a good business model based upon what I’m sure are quality products and responsive CS. I think that’s great but I also see a guy who can’t keep in his lane in terms of criticizing others and or their products. I won’t speculate as to his motives but one easily could. In his current iteration (version 2.0) he seems a great and helpful guy but having been around here for a long time (I actually started on this forum in 2001) I know of and saw a much more volatile person.

I think he would be better served to stay in his own lane and let these things play out as they will. As to his surrogates, you really should re-consider this leg humping behavior. It is both annoying and undignified (like you care ).
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post #3427 of 3591 Old 08-21-2016, 09:39 AM
 
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Originally Posted by VicTorious1 View Post
@Brian Fineberg - that's interesting. I wonder if that driver was an anomaly or representative. Do the drivers that Radian sells have measurements? Or did people simply see the MSRP of the Radian drivers that Reaction was using and say "well they're using pricey drivers so the parts of the CX series are quality."?
i dont know to be honest...but i DO know that its fairly common here on avs some who think they are experts can tell exactly how a driver can perform based on looks, weight and msrp etc (i.e. shadyj)..lol so wouldnt surprise me if more also do that...but like i have said in the past...

I know for a fact RA never measured speakers at ALL when they first opened (maybe first year) and it wasnt until they asked the help of another ID brand...that they were given a umik to get them started....and RA then shared the FR with that other ID company....and it was so bad...they suggested the units were pulled off the cart..until they could tweak them...so it also wouldnt surprise me if Jeremy...said hmmm let me grab an expensive driver...and just assume it will perform good

in fact this same thing was observed by Ricci when getting the first units....he said it was the worst response he had tested
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post #3428 of 3591 Old 08-21-2016, 09:45 AM
 
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
OK, you guys keep bringing him up and he has even checked himself into this rather controversial Thread concerning another manufacturer so here goes. Tom V and Ron Stimpson were “DIY’ers” who started SVS with their Sonotube based subs. They were very aggressive in the Forums (being banned several times) but found good business success out of the gate. They had a rabid following and an unashamed guerrilla marketing strategy. They (Tom in particular) had troubles with other manufacturers due in no small part to their tendency to opine negatively on others products. The quote by Tom on the Radian drivers is a perfect example with anecdotal critiquing and no data.

Tom is a smart marketer and has a good business model based upon what are I’m sure are quality products and responsive CS. I think that’s great but I also see a guy who can’t keep in his lane in terms of criticizing others and or their products. I won’t speculate as to his motives but one easily could. In his current iteration (version 2.0) he seems a great and helpful guy but having been around here for a long time (I actually started on this forum in 2001) I know of and saw a much more volatile person.

I think he would be better served to stay in his own lane and let these things play out as they will. As to his surrogates, you really should really re-consider this leg humping behavior. It is both annoying and undignified (like you care ).
valid. except being a suurogate and leg humping....


i have been an "Active" member since early 2002...but was an original svs purchaser and HTforum member since 1998 so I have the same "been around the block experience" and you are in fact correct...I dont defend toms negative actions by any means..and like i said you are very valid...but..i dont think he is a liar either....BUT he tried to directly help Jeremy many times..only for it to fall on deaf ears

and im pretty sure ive never called you a name or called you annoying smh...and I honestly dont appreciate it you dont like what i say...ignore list pal.

what i can say is I trust Tom cause I KNOW he measures his gear he sells...I KNOW he designs it all in house..I KNOW he builds all the xovers by hand...so to not respect that is pure ignorance...
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post #3429 of 3591 Old 08-21-2016, 10:40 AM
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Well I would never post anything like Tom V. posted on any Forum.
Even if you are not happy with the Radian products, well so be it, but dirty laundry you keep within your company.
Business is business and you should keep such info internally.
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post #3430 of 3591 Old 08-21-2016, 11:09 AM
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Well I would never post anything like Tom V. posted on any Forum.
Even if you are not happy with the Radian products, well so be it, but dirty laundry you keep within your company.
Business is business and you should keep such info internally.
Eh, I don't see anything problematic with what Tom said about the Radian products, if true. Radian has various means of protection or redress if false. First and foremost, if Radian was aware of any poorly measured frequency response yet were still selling the product, they could require that PSA enter into a nondisclosure agreement prior to sending out a sample.

Moreover, if what Tom said was false and he knew it, he could open his company and himself up to defamation and commercial/product disparagement claims. All of that being said, if what Tom said was true, he has every right to say it. Additionally, we speaker enthusiasts should want such information because it's informative.
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post #3431 of 3591 Old 08-21-2016, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
In his current iteration (version 2.0) he seems a great and helpful guy but having been around here for a long time (I actually started on this forum in 2001) I know of and saw a much more volatile person.
Don’t we all have a 2.0 version? Or even a 3.0 version? One would hope we could all learn from our past mistakes. Experience and age certainly changes things, especially one’s perspective and priorities in life. The real and most pertinent question is, will Jeremy get a chance at becoming a better 2.0 version? I’m afraid only Jeremy can answer that question.

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post #3432 of 3591 Old 08-21-2016, 11:46 AM
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Eh, I don't see anything problematic with what Tom said about the Radian products, if true. Radian has various means of protection or redress if false. First and foremost, if Radian was aware of any poorly measured frequency response yet were still selling the product, they could require that PSA enter into a nondisclosure agreement prior to sending out a sample.

Moreover, if what Tom said was false and he knew it, he could open his company and himself up to defamation and commercial/product disparagement claims. All of that being said, if what Tom said was true, he has every right to say it. Additionally, we speaker enthusiasts should want such information because it's informative.


Whether false or not that is not what I am trying to make clear. There are things you just do not do when doing business and the most important is being discrete and keep stuff confidential towards suppliers and possible business partners. Just my unimportant vision
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post #3433 of 3591 Old 08-21-2016, 12:29 PM
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Whether false or not that is not what I am trying to make clear. There are things you just do not do when doing business and the most important is being discrete and keep stuff confidential towards suppliers and possible business partners. Just my unimportant vision
If you're referencing Tom's tactfulness, then I suppose He could've been more artful in his delivery. However, many of us, myself included, prefer to have as much info as possible: no sugarcoating.

I don't mean to sound like a broken record, but there's a reason that the confidentiality provisions of a sales agreement/PO are some of the most often negotiated terms of a sales contract. If you don't want a potential customer or business partner disclosing info about your company require that they agree to it beforehand. It's pretty simple.
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post #3434 of 3591 Old 08-21-2016, 01:47 PM
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Pretty sure Tom is up to date on business practices and ethics. iirc when he departed Svs he kept a low profile which was likely part of an agreement he signed for several months...if he entered and broke any agreement with any said mfg in question here...he'd be liable. I actually appreciate his candor....unlike most designer who often use their own forum or shroud themselves...he is always on the hot seat because of his openness to share his opinion publicly and speak his mind...I for one admire that and if ever, I was to seek something away from my current sub status I buy from PSA... again for these exact reasons.

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post #3435 of 3591 Old 08-21-2016, 04:11 PM
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Billy - where's the Funk?
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post #3436 of 3591 Old 08-21-2016, 06:59 PM
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Billy - where's the Funk?

Final assembly and testing pending....ETA...likely end of the month.

I dunno some of you guys seem to be anticipating this sub more than me...

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post #3437 of 3591 Old 08-21-2016, 07:28 PM
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I just want to make something clear, Tom never said publicly what Brian posted above. I know for a fact that he didn't, if you can find that exact post anywhere I'd be glad to eat my words. His remarks about the shoddy crossover is no different than what other RA speaker owners are saying about their off the shelf Radian crossovers in their CX-12s or other models in the line. Nikko's response graphs along with Soulburner's are proof enough of that. Aside from the XOs looks like more anomalies are apparent with the driver as well or he wouldn't have contacted Radian about the CX-12 driver.
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post #3438 of 3591 Old 08-21-2016, 07:29 PM
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Final assembly and testing pending....ETA...likely end of the month.

I dunno some of you guys seem to be anticipating this sub more than me...
Billy I am..............
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post #3439 of 3591 Old 08-21-2016, 07:38 PM
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I just want to make something clear, Tom never said publicly what Brian posted above. I know for a fact that he didn't, if you can find that exact post anywhere I'd be glad to eat my words. His remarks about the shoddy crossover is no different than what other RA speaker owners are saying about their off the shelf Radian crossovers in their CX-12s or other models in the line. Nikko's response graphs along with Soulburner's are proof enough of that. Aside from the XOs looks like more anomalies are apparent with the driver as well or he wouldn't have contacted Radian about the CX-12 driver.
FYI - You can click on the little arrow after Tom's name and it will take you right to the post that is being quoted. He absolutely posted that.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

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post #3440 of 3591 Old 08-21-2016, 07:47 PM
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@John here's a video that might help with your stripped driver screws.


There are special bits made just for that and work very well.
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post #3441 of 3591 Old 08-21-2016, 07:53 PM
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FYI - You can click on the little arrow after Tom's name and it will take you right to the post that is being quoted. He absolutely posted that.
I'm eating the words now and they don't taste good.................
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post #3442 of 3591 Old 08-21-2016, 08:22 PM
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I just want to make something clear, Tom never said publicly what Brian posted above. I know for a fact that he didn't, if you can find that exact post anywhere I'd be glad to eat my words. His remarks about the shoddy crossover is no different than what other RA speaker owners are saying about their off the shelf Radian crossovers in their CX-12s or other models in the line. Nikko's response graphs along with Soulburner's are proof enough of that. Aside from the XOs looks like more anomalies are apparent with the driver as well or he wouldn't have contacted Radian about the CX-12 driver.
Then how could Brian have quoted it? Click the "originally posted by" link at the top of the post.

@RMK
Tom runs his business according to his own set of ethics. I don't share the exact same views nor do I suspect any two of us do. Quality product and top-notch customer service are great foundations for a successful comoany. I am a tireless fact-checker and Tom's info has always checked out.

Obviously Tom's style has turned some off here. I find it laughable that those of us who respect Tom are minions and leghumpers. Are we also leghumpers of Mark Seaton and Jeff Permanian? Is Mark Seaton a Tom V leghumper? PSA owners are among the most knowledgeable and helpful members on this forum. I think so more fact checking may be in order. How dare you call us ShadyJs! 😜
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post #3443 of 3591 Old 08-22-2016, 03:05 AM
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Well my last input on the Radian stuff cause there are more interesting things to write about.


Imo Tom V. crossed a line, there are things you just do not do.
Has to do with respect, discretion and so on when doing business.


Whether contract or not, a company should not post any such input on a "consumer" forum.
A company should never ever discredit a supplier on a public forum. That is a "no go".


Suppliers be warned, if Tom V. (who is he.....) does not like what you supplied to him he will hang you for it publically on some forum so all can read.


Mind the future and keep doors open, that would be my advice to Mr. Tom V.
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post #3444 of 3591 Old 08-22-2016, 04:22 AM
 
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I just want to make something clear, Tom never said publicly what Brian posted above. I know for a fact that he didn't, if you can find that exact post anywhere I'd be glad to eat my words. His remarks about the shoddy crossover is no different than what other RA speaker owners are saying about their off the shelf Radian crossovers in their CX-12s or other models in the line. Nikko's response graphs along with Soulburner's are proof enough of that. Aside from the XOs looks like more anomalies are apparent with the driver as well or he wouldn't have contacted Radian about the CX-12 driver.

Really Jeffrey?! Lol smh
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post #3445 of 3591 Old 08-22-2016, 05:37 AM
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Meh, I have no problem with what Tom said. I'm not very apologetic to companies trying to earn my money. IMO, if it doesn't sit right with Jeremy, he should do something to correct it. The balls in his court, right the ship.
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post #3446 of 3591 Old 08-22-2016, 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
I just want to make something clear, Tom never said publicly what Brian posted above. I know for a fact that he didn't, if you can find that exact post anywhere I'd be glad to eat my words. His remarks about the shoddy crossover is no different than what other RA speaker owners are saying about their off the shelf Radian crossovers in their CX-12s or other models in the line. Nikko's response graphs along with Soulburner's are proof enough of that. Aside from the XOs looks like more anomalies are apparent with the driver as well or he wouldn't have contacted Radian about the CX-12 driver.
Tom V. might be right with the Radian stuff. I'm not sure if you're aware, but there's several 12" Radian models/configurations. IMO, there's nothing wrong with sharing the information and feedback, but it would even be more helpful if objective supportive data was also provided. That would be equivalent to me saying how Eminence isn't great because their 18" driver (from a Chase SS18.1) we tried sucked compared to the other drivers we tested. If I went around the forums with that information, without any data, I'm sure I would get a backlash or two from the Eminence supporters (I love my deltalites!). Or maybe people would accuse me that both of my UMIK-1's aren't accurate enough
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post #3447 of 3591 Old 08-22-2016, 07:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
I just want to make something clear, Tom never said publicly what Brian posted above. I know for a fact that he didn't, if you can find that exact post anywhere I'd be glad to eat my words. His remarks about the shoddy crossover is no different than what other RA speaker owners are saying about their off the shelf Radian crossovers in their CX-12s or other models in the line. Nikko's response graphs along with Soulburner's are proof enough of that. Aside from the XOs looks like more anomalies are apparent with the driver as well or he wouldn't have contacted Radian about the CX-12 driver.


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-spe...l#post46195145
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post #3448 of 3591 Old 08-22-2016, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
@John here's a video that might help with your stripped driver screws.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gt1vTfGJNp4

There are special bits made just for that and work very well.
Why is @John Robinson removing the stripped screws himself? Shouldn't he just be able to return the sub and have Reaction Audio fix it? I don't understand...
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post #3449 of 3591 Old 08-23-2016, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by ch1sox View Post
Why is @John Robinson removing the stripped screws himself? Shouldn't he just be able to return the sub and have Reaction Audio fix it? I don't understand…
Generally if you have a part go bad on a sub or speaker and it is a simple swap out, the manufacture will send out the part. On a sub it is not uncommon for the customer to just switch a driver or plate amp. It is a PITA to ship a complete sub back, not to mention the cost.

To the person having problems with a stripped screw, I bought a set of speedout's at Home Depot. Probably get them at any hardware store or Amazon. They worked for me a few times now with unrelated stripped screws. If there is any meat on the screw that you can get a wrench on, you can try using a set of needle nose vise grips or regular vise grips. Just don't be careful not to damage the cabinet!!
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post #3450 of 3591 Old 08-23-2016, 08:37 AM
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The underlying question>why was this sub shipped with said screws... We all know shipping a sub is a pita....but really RA should do it on their dime.
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