Official Reaction Audio Thread - Page 79 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2341 of 3591 Old 06-10-2015, 12:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
@rcohen , would you say that the JTRs are less room dependent because of the more direct radiating dispersion pattern than the RAs, as I have heard here that the RAs have a broader vertical and horizontal dispersion which creates a wider stage and room boundaries may contribute some to this, besides the driver and enclosure of course? TIA

Depends on which JTR speakers you're talking about, let's not forgot JTR builds coax driver designs too. Not so much for mains anymore but there's plenty of T8's and T12's out in the wild.
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post #2342 of 3591 Old 06-10-2015, 02:03 PM
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Yes, depending on placement. That goes for most speakers with big horns, like Danleys. As you said, some people prefer wider dispersion, though.
Yep, that's why I made sure to clarify that those types of things are preferences, same with the flatness at the top range.

Thanks for stopping by and sharing some thoughts with us, and I am glad my impressions matched your experiences. I loved my time with the 212's and would recommend that anyone with a chance to hear them take advantage, they are a ton of fun.
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post #2343 of 3591 Old 06-14-2015, 06:30 AM
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Besides the custom steel stands, what other stands are you guys using to hold your CX10's?
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post #2344 of 3591 Old 06-14-2015, 07:59 AM
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Sanus Systems SFC22 Steel Foundations 22" Tall Speaker Stand for Center Channel Speakers https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005PIXN7E..._fAzFvbPBD7587

Put some UHU Tac under the speaker.
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post #2345 of 3591 Old 06-14-2015, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
Sanus Systems SFC22 Steel Foundations 22" Tall Speaker Stand for Center Channel Speakers https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005PIXN7E..._fAzFvbPBD7587

Put some UHU Tac under the speaker.
So how are you liking the CX-10's? I know you were getting some funky measurements and stuff.

What audible difference did the new crossovers make out of curiosity?
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post #2346 of 3591 Old 06-14-2015, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
So how are you liking the CX-10's? I know you were getting some funky measurements and stuff.

What audible difference did the new crossovers make out of curiosity?
They are sitting on the floor at the moment, and will be carried over to my new place in 2 weeks. So while my impressions so far are positive, it will be awhile before the setup is finalized.

The new crossover helped in some areas above but but not at the XO frequency. We think there's phase cancellation happening there. It can be improved to some degree by reversing the polarity of the tweeter but it isn't a panacea. Jeremy and Frank are going to experiment to see if it can be improved on.

To clarify though, I seem to be the only one with that big of a dip. It's there on other user's speakers, but it's much smaller. 4-5 db vs 12-14db.

Last edited by Soulburner; 06-14-2015 at 02:45 PM.
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post #2347 of 3591 Old 06-14-2015, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
They are sitting on the floor at the moment, and will be carried over to my new place in 2 weeks. So while my impressions so far are positive, it will be awhile before the setup is finalized.

The new crossover helped in some areas above but but not at the XO frequency. We think there's phase cancellation happening there. It can be improved to some degree by reversing the polarity of the tweeter but it isn't a panacea. Jeremy and Frank are going to experiment to see if it can be improved on.

To clarify though, I seem to be the only one with that big of a dip. It's there on other user's speakers, but it's much smaller. 4-5 db vs 12-14db.
Yeah I was just curious what all was going on with that. It's never good to have surprises like that make it into the customers hands, but I am really impressed with the urgency in which Jeremy attempted to rectify the situation. I'm also glad to hear they are still working with you to get a desirable resolution, makes me proud to be an RA owner.
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post #2348 of 3591 Old 06-14-2015, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
Yeah I was just curious what all was going on with that. It's never good to have surprises like that make it into the customers hands, but I am really impressed with the urgency in which Jeremy attempted to rectify the situation. I'm also glad to hear they are still working with you to get a desirable resolution, makes me proud to be an RA owner.
Absolutely (where'd the beer smiley go?)

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post #2349 of 3591 Old 06-14-2015, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
Absolutely (where'd the beer smiley go?)
Not sure where that smiley is, I always use the mobile version and can't see any of that stuff lol.

Do you happen to know if RA has any corrective action in place to keep products like this from shipping out in the future? I imagine it's much more cost effective to catch this stuff before it ever goes out than to deal with it after the fact.
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post #2350 of 3591 Old 06-15-2015, 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
Not sure where that smiley is, I always use the mobile version and can't see any of that stuff lol.

Do you happen to know if RA has any corrective action in place to keep products like this from shipping out in the future? I imagine it's much more cost effective to catch this stuff before it ever goes out than to deal with it after the fact.
I don't think there is anything wrong with the crossovers. But I do need to test a new driver to rule that out. It's the only thing left that makes sense.
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post #2351 of 3591 Old 06-16-2015, 09:21 AM
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I don't think there is anything wrong with the crossovers. But I do need to test a new driver to rule that out. It's the only thing left that makes sense.
So long term lurker here, building out a dedicated HT in my basement. Have been a 10 year believer and user of projectors and time to upgrade everything but amplifiers as part of this build. (epson 6500 projector gave up the go with banding)

Room, 26'L, 15' wide 7'7" ceiling. So a little low especially to do a riser for second row. Do want an Atmos, DTS-X and aura though getting this done for all 3 is tricky.

Here is what I am pondering, CX12's across front, Cx10's sides and rears, Cx8's for ceiling. Still need to determine subs but will likely be 2 18" subs by JTR, Reaction, or PSA, rhythmic FV15HP is also of interest.

Amplifiers are two Cinepro 3k6MK3's setup off 240V. (yes a lot of power and these amp's are dynamic!) but also very quiet.

Pre-pro still investigating but likely Marantz 8802, (old setup was lexicon MC-12 and older NHT's and 2 DIY 18" original Adire Maelstrom sealed subs in a ~22" cube, baltic birch)

Is this my plan total overkill? was also looking at Revel performa series but reaction seems to be great bang for buck and I will be following the true bat cave black theater mantra here. Will do whatever audio room treatments as required. no windows, sealed room.

Thoughts?

Carl
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post #2352 of 3591 Old 06-16-2015, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by melikeHT View Post

Thoughts?

Carl
Coming from someone who owns the CX12t's LCR and hearing the Cx15t's, I would definitely go for the 15's. It's just a much better sounding speaker, imo - bugger soundstage, sound is more open and airy, the weight in the notes are more prevalent... The sound coming from the cx15's is just more effortless compared to the cx12t's. If it wasn't for the space constraints in my HT (my room width is 10.5'), I would have gone for the bigger speakers while maintaining the room to accommodate my dual gamma218. I loved the cx15's so much, I'm getting a custom pair built for my family room/2ch setup.

Since you already have the diy sealed subs, I would be more inclined to look at the sealed options. I have the gamma218's and they're incredible, especially for the $. If you have the budget, dual jtr S2's or quad seaton submersives is all you'll ever need in that room.
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post #2353 of 3591 Old 06-16-2015, 06:25 PM
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Anyone ever compare a reaction audio to a JBL cinema speaker like 3677 or 4722? Looking up get new LRC speakers and thinking of jbl but I wanted to maybe check out the cx15.
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post #2354 of 3591 Old 06-16-2015, 06:39 PM
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Anyone ever compare a reaction audio to a JBL cinema speaker like 3677 or 4722? Looking up get new LRC speakers and thinking of jbl but I wanted to maybe check out the cx15.
I believe that was discussed a ways back in the thread. Try the search.
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post #2355 of 3591 Old 06-16-2015, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by lemonslush View Post
Anyone ever compare a reaction audio to a JBL cinema speaker like 3677 or 4722? Looking up get new LRC speakers and thinking of jbl but I wanted to maybe check out the cx15.
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I believe that was discussed a ways back in the thread. Try the search.
Actually, I do not think they were ever compared to the 3677 or 4722s but they were compared to the M2 Master Reference's directly here:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-spe...illy-va-9.html

The M2 was a showstopper of course but the differences in price were pretty drastic too.
(20k per pair?)

I suspect the 4722 would have the ability to play somewhat louder than the CX-15, however the CX-15 will get to levels that would be hard to stand in an average HT. The 4722 is designed for large venue theaters but from what I hear, does admirably well in HT settings too.

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post #2356 of 3591 Old 06-16-2015, 09:20 PM
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I'm probably remembering some commentary from posters, rather than an official GTG.
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post #2357 of 3591 Old 06-18-2015, 07:07 PM
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In an attempt to carry all the speaker talk from the sub thread into the speaker thread....

Hey @Aspen0220 , what speakers are you currently considering for surrounds? Looks like you have some interest in RA?
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post #2358 of 3591 Old 06-18-2015, 07:44 PM
 
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Actually, I do not think they were ever compared to the 3677 or 4722s but they were compared to the M2 Master Reference's directly here:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-spe...illy-va-9.html

The M2 was a showstopper of course but the differences in price were pretty drastic too.
(20k per pair?)

I suspect the 4722 would have the ability to play somewhat louder than the CX-15, however the CX-15 will get to levels that would be hard to stand in an average HT. The 4722 is designed for large venue theaters but from what I hear, does admirably well in HT settings too.
M2 is 120 degrees by 100 degrees while 4722 is 90x30 and the RA is 90 conical down to XO.

Very different sounding.

RA would be disadvantaged in a room that had untreated floor and ceilings. The reflections would create intelligibility issues.

It would perform better with a carpeted floor or treated ceiling.

M2 would sound bigger and throw a better sound stage than either due to fancy advanced tech waveguide and it's wider pattern.

4722 would be most dynamic.
And yes I've heard all 3.

Generally unfair to compare a 20k speaker like m2 to a speaker that's 10x cheaper. RA is 10x cheaper. That's significant unto itself.
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post #2359 of 3591 Old 06-18-2015, 07:48 PM
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I have carpet, cloth chairs and a couch, but no ceiling or wall treatments yet, and I don't have issues with intelligibility, even without a center channel.
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post #2360 of 3591 Old 06-18-2015, 07:50 PM - Thread Starter
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M2 is 120 degrees by 100 degrees while 4722 is 90x30 and the RA is 90 conical down to XO.

Very different sounding.

RA would be disadvantaged in a room that had untreated floor and ceilings. The reflections would create intelligibility issues.

It would perform better with a carpeted floor or treated ceiling.

M2 would sound bigger and throw a better sound stage than either due to fancy advanced tech waveguide and it's wider pattern.

4722 would be most dynamic.
And yes I've heard all 3.

Generally unfair to compare a 20k speaker like m2 to a speaker that's 10x cheaper. RA is 10x cheaper. That's significant unto itself.

Maybe that's why the CX-15's were very well liked at the GTG that I hosted. My room is fairly well treated, have all of the ceiling first reflection points treated and then the back all above the second row of seats. The rooms still lively but treated.


I was actually really happy with the results after I treated the first reflection points on the ceiling!
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post #2361 of 3591 Old 06-18-2015, 07:54 PM
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Maybe that's why the CX-15's were very well liked at the GTG that I hosted. My room is fairly well treated, have all of the ceiling first reflection points treated and then the back all above the second row of seats. The rooms still lively but treated.


I was actually really happy with the results after I treated the first reflection points on the ceiling!
Did you see significant improvement after treating the back wall? I hope I don't suffer too much, I won't be able to because it's a major walkway. Seats will be 10 feet from the back wall though.
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post #2362 of 3591 Old 06-19-2015, 04:13 AM
 
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Maybe that's why the CX-15's were very well liked at the GTG that I hosted. My room is fairly well treated, have all of the ceiling first reflection points treated and then the back all above the second row of seats. The rooms still lively but treated.


I was actually really happy with the results after I treated the first reflection points on the ceiling!
That's also probably why it did so bad at the Northeast GTG- gorilla room was two story with parallel walls, and reinforcing flutter echo all the way up.
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post #2363 of 3591 Old 06-19-2015, 08:29 AM
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That's also probably why it did so bad at the Northeast GTG- gorilla room was two story with parallel walls, and reinforcing flutter echo all the way up.
Well I thought they also admitted to improper setup. Regardless a room like that doesn't help matters lol.
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post #2364 of 3591 Old 06-19-2015, 08:52 AM
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I guess it depends on how you define improper setup. Compared to 99% of audio consumers the setup was top flight. Compared to a setup dialed in by measurements and lots of trial and error it was not optimized.

As an attendee I don't think the setup was the issue. As @Mfusick indicated the space where we listened to them is hostile to great sound. Room is always a critical factor, which is why Andrew has a kick a$$ room in his lower level. The CX-15's would have sounded completely different in his HT space.

The CX's sold during the GTG and last I knew the owner is very satisfied. GTG threads are great to read but in my view they can be worse than useless for making buying decisions.

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post #2365 of 3591 Old 06-19-2015, 08:59 AM - Thread Starter
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I guess it depends on how you define improper setup. Compared to 99% of audio consumers the setup was top flight. Compared to a setup dialed in by measurements and lots of trial and error it was not optimized.

As an attendee I don't think the setup was the issue. As @Mfusick indicated the space where we listened to them is hostile to great sound. Room is always a critical factor, which is why Andrew has a kick a$$ room in his lower level. The CX-15's would have sounded completely different in his HT space.

The CX's sold during the GTG and last I knew the owner is very satisfied. GTG threads are great to read but in my view they can be worse than useless for making buying decisions.
And if I recall Ben took his CX-15's to a second GTG, and with the new crossovers installed they did very well at that second GTG. Quite a few guys that heard them at the first GTG were very pleasantly surprised at the difference.
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post #2366 of 3591 Old 06-19-2015, 09:00 AM
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I guess it depends on how you define improper setup. Compared to 99% of audio consumers the setup was top flight. Compared to a setup dialed in by measurements and lots of trial and error it was not optimized.

As an attendee I don't think the setup was the issue. As @Mfusick indicated the space where we listened to them is hostile to great sound. Room is always a critical factor, which is why Andrew has a kick a$$ room in his lower level. The CX-15's would have sounded completely different in his HT space.

The CX's sold during the GTG and last I knew the owner is very satisfied. GTG threads are great to read but in my view they can be worse than useless for making buying decisions.
Maybe I misremember but it sounded like they re-adjusted at some point during that night and had much better results. Pretty sure some of the guys even said they didn't come back after the re-adjustment and their opinions were based on the first portion.

None of that matters anyway because you guys are absolutely right, the CX speaker design will cause it to interact with the room more than most. This can be good or bad, and definitely needs to be understood before purchasing them.
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post #2367 of 3591 Old 06-19-2015, 09:08 AM
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And if I recall Ben took his CX-15's to a second GTG, and with the new crossovers installed they did very well at that second GTG. Quite a few guys that heard them at the first GTG were very pleasantly surprised at the difference.
Not surprised they sounded better, the big open highly reflective space is not good for a wide dispersion horn based system (I assume the CX's are 90x90). I know a lot of people love the speakers so I had no worries it was the speaker.

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Maybe I misremember but it sounded like they re-adjusted at some point during that night and had much better results. Pretty sure some of the guys even said they didn't come back after the re-adjustment and their opinions were based on the first portion.

None of that matters anyway because you guys are absolutely right, the CX speaker design will cause it to interact with the room more than most. This can be good or bad, and definitely needs to be understood before purchasing them.
Yeah we moved the Christmas tree to get greater distances between the speakers and it made a significant difference. I don't think Andrew was terribly thrilled with the tree moving (I could have read false emotions into the event), seems that you can never get things back to the original location to the degree that the wife doesn't notice it was moved.

If I wasn't a DIY guy I can say that the RA speakers/subs would definitely be on my short list.
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post #2368 of 3591 Old 06-19-2015, 09:52 AM
 
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Well I thought they also admitted to improper setup. Regardless a room like that doesn't help matters lol.
No I was there. It was not set up. We literally took the speaker wire out of the back of it and into the FUSION 4 DIY someone brought and it sounded amazing. Same wires, amp and source. The set up issue was earlier when a cell phone was being used as the source- but all the speakers later used the same source, amp and signal. The cell phone was replaced when it was noticed that it performed poor and the change effected all the speakers.

While the RA sounded better the second time (I heard both) it was not anywhere close to as good at the $150 FUSION 4 at any point.

If I was to guess it's because the waveguide on the Fusion 4 and layout was a lot more favorable. The waveguide had a more limited vertical dispersion than the RA does being conical, and a much higher XO point because it's 4" woofers vs 15". Also it's 4 of the 4" woofers two above and two below the waveguide- so you get very good control of floor and ceiling bounce. So that speaker can throw a very wide sound, while being very limited in the throw of it's sound up and down. That's it's design. That means you got a lot less of that flutter echo from the parallel walls in Andrew living room that extended up two full stories.

I'm just guessing at this- but it makes sense to me and is the best explanation I can come up with. The speaker sounded so bad I thought it was broken.

The PSA I believe went after those two did and it sounded better than the RA 15" and still much worse than the FUSION 4- and the PSA I believe was a MTM so it had a higher level of control on floor and ceiling bounce as well- compared to the RA.

Speakers are about application. If there was ever an experience that showed how a $150 speaker can beat a $1000 one clearly it was that. I had a similar experience at the MA GTG where a $100 pair of DIY speakers I made (soft dome dayton with two 5" woofers MTM) sounded better than the RA10" or the JTR. Sure it lacked dynamics or the efficiency but it sounded better in that room and had a much bigger sound stage.

You can't judge a speaker if it's used in the wrong application, and simply choosing a speaker that is appropriate to the application will yield you way more performance gains than buying a better speaker would if it's otherwise wrong.

or you can treat your room and problems to make it work best with the speaker you have chosen- and that helps too. But the strategy is wrong IMO, even though it's how 90% of the people do it because they don't know better. If you pick the right speaker for the right application everything else is easier. That's why I was so critical of RA on the measurements thing. You can't do that without them. I see potential in RA, I mean they sell a speaker with a berylium phram delivered for like $1000 or something- That's amazing. It should and could easily be $2500+ if it had measurements. But you can't charge more or validate value without measurements.

The simply fact is most people are not going to look at a speaker and understand how it performs based on the parts used and the design layout. Those that do won't look at a speaker that lacks measurements either. It's a big sign to run away.
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post #2369 of 3591 Old 06-19-2015, 09:55 AM
 
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And if I recall Ben took his CX-15's to a second GTG, and with the new crossovers installed they did very well at that second GTG. Quite a few guys that heard them at the first GTG were very pleasantly surprised at the difference.
Crossover design change was an impedance thing to present and easier load to an AVR. It was not SQ based change.

The change in sound was the room being different.
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post #2370 of 3591 Old 06-19-2015, 10:10 AM
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No I was there. It was not set up. We literally took the speaker wire out of the back of it and into the FUSION 4 DIY someone brought and it sounded amazing. Same wires, amp and source. The set up issue was earlier when a cell phone was being used as the source- but all the speakers later used the same source, amp and signal. The cell phone was replaced when it was noticed that it performed poor and the change effected all the speakers.

While the RA sounded better the second time (I heard both) it was not anywhere close to as good at the $150 FUSION 4 at any point.

If I was to guess it's because the waveguide on the Fusion 4 and layout was a lot more favorable. The waveguide had a more limited vertical dispersion than the RA does being conical, and a much higher XO point because it's 4" woofers vs 15". Also it's 4 of the 4" woofers two above and two below the waveguide- so you get very good control of floor and ceiling bounce. So that speaker can throw a very wide sound, while being very limited in the throw of it's sound up and down. That's it's design. That means you got a lot less of that flutter echo from the parallel walls in Andrew living room that extended up two full stories.

I'm just guessing at this- but it makes sense to me and is the best explanation I can come up with. The speaker sounded so bad I thought it was broken.

The PSA I believe went after those two did and it sounded better than the RA 15" and still much worse than the FUSION 4- and the PSA I believe was a MTM so it had a higher level of control on floor and ceiling bounce as well- compared to the RA.

Speakers are about application. If there was ever an experience that showed how a $150 speaker can beat a $1000 one clearly it was that. I had a similar experience at the MA GTG where a $100 pair of DIY speakers I made (soft dome dayton with two 5" woofers MTM) sounded better than the RA10" or the JTR. Sure it lacked dynamics or the efficiency but it sounded better in that room and had a much bigger sound stage.

You can't judge a speaker if it's used in the wrong application, and simply choosing a speaker that is appropriate to the application will yield you way more performance gains than buying a better speaker would if it's otherwise wrong.

or you can treat your room and problems to make it work best with the speaker you have chosen- and that helps too. But the strategy is wrong IMO, even though it's how 90% of the people do it because they don't know better. If you pick the right speaker for the right application everything else is easier. That's why I was so critical of RA on the measurements thing. You can't do that without them. I see potential in RA, I mean they sell a speaker with a berylium phram delivered for like $1000 or something- That's amazing. It should and could easily be $2500+ if it had measurements. But you can't charge more or validate value without measurements.

The simply fact is most people are not going to look at a speaker and understand how it performs based on the parts used and the design layout. Those that do won't look at a speaker that lacks measurements either. It's a big sign to run away.
A lot of good points. You also have to keep in mind some of it comes down to personal preferences as well. While you may have preferred that fusion 4 or whatever it's called, I saw quite a few people say they could never seriously consider it due to output limitations. Also I know the lack of dynamics you mentioned in the other speaker that sounded better would be a no-go for tons of people, everybody prioritizes these things differently. I guess in situations like that you have to take the ideas that work from each design and try to combine them into one super design, which is easier said than done.

The other thing is with your approach you pretty much have to start your theater design from scratch every time you move to a new room. This is not reasonable for most people due to time or financial commitments. Picking the best speaker you can afford (based on personal preferences) offers more flexibility than tailoring specifically to whatever environment you happen to be in at the time.

Sure would be nice to use the approach you suggest as I certainly see it's merit, but it has some real world limitations that will keep it from ever being the dominant form of theater design, even if it is the best.

Last edited by FattyMcButterPants; 06-19-2015 at 10:27 AM.
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