Official Power Sound Audio Speaker Thread - Page 177 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5281 of 8803 Old 07-31-2016, 07:05 AM
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I don't see why YouTube videos are not perfect for making speaker purchase decisons. I use black and white photos to pick paint color for the house, same same.


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post #5282 of 8803 Old 07-31-2016, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
That's me at a concert last week waiting for Shinedown to open. I ran into a guy with a Klipsch shirt on, and we gave each other the nod. Does that make me fanboy? Lol, or just great advertising
Shinedown/Halestorm concert, right? We are going to that one on Aug12 and really looking forward to seeing both again!!

I will say that I have been disappointed with Shinedown since they made it big after Sound of Madness as I tend to like the early stuff much better both live and recorded. I have seen them at least 5 times and last winter in Portland Maine they kicked butt again acting more like the early days. I really wish they would drop Simple Man live and do some more early songs. Setlist shows Creep by Radiohead-I hope that they did this one justice as I know Shinedown is capable when they want to be!! That is a GREAT song on the PSA speakers

We have seen Halestorm 5-6 times as well and really looking forward to seeing them again as it has been a while. They always kick azz !! Lizzy and the gang are getting better as they get older (and she is looking really good as she gets a little older ). Looks like they are opening with Love Bites, Mz Hyde, Apocolyptic, Amen and the set list doesnt stop kicking

Add The Pretty Reckless to this show and it would be over the top for sure
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post #5283 of 8803 Old 07-31-2016, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by NWCgrad View Post
I don't see why YouTube videos are not perfect for making speaker purchase decisons. I use black and white photos to pick paint color for the house, same same.
are you tube videos compressed audio? Would you not rather have an SACD or some lossless audio to demo for speaker making decisions? I have heard many videos that crackle during playback. I guess it depends on the source
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post #5284 of 8803 Old 07-31-2016, 05:11 PM
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I have no idea how Zeos has become so popular on reddit, its like a cult with people always asking him for advice, quoting his posts etc. His reviews are comical with almost no information, he doesn't even mention basic specs and his comparisons seem to be just about what sounds louder to him. The review of the PSA speakers (or was it subs) which was basically 'Murica yeah' would've been funny if it actually had any content.

He's declared the best speakers he's ever heard to be PSA's, then JBL 530, then SVS Ultra's its like every week there's a new 'best ever' with nothing to actually back it up.

And he gets money/donations and review units... its ridiculous. Ok rant over Its just really bad when hordes of people blindly start buying whatever he recommends.
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post #5285 of 8803 Old 07-31-2016, 05:16 PM
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Finally hooked up my 210T's and 210C in the bedroom. They sound great. Not using a sub at this point but bumped up the bass a bit using EQ and they have plenty of bass output for movies in this sealed room. Room is probably 16x25 but part of that area is a closed off bathroom. Only listed to a few songs from a dire straights sacd.
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post #5286 of 8803 Old 07-31-2016, 08:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post
Finally hooked up my 210T's and 210C in the bedroom. They sound great. Not using a sub at this point but bumped up the bass a bit using EQ and they have plenty of bass output for movies in this sealed room. Room is probably 16x25 but part of that area is a closed off bathroom. Only listed to a few songs from a dire straights sacd.
Nice! Yes they have plenty of bass with a little EQ applied.
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post #5287 of 8803 Old 07-31-2016, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by gbreda View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
That's me at a concert last week waiting for Shinedown to open. I ran into a guy with a Klipsch shirt on, and we gave each other the nod. Does that make me fanboy? Lol, or just great advertising
Shinedown/Halestorm concert, right? We are going to that one on Aug12 and really looking forward to seeing both again!!
Aye, the very same tour! We've seen Halestorm and the Pretty Reckless before too. In This Moment is also great live; Maria Brink is intense! Halestorm sounded much better than I remember (possibly venue related) and put on an amazing show at this newer outdoor amphitheater near my house. Shinedown did play their Radiohead Creep cover which was cool. Actually, I thought Whiskey Meyers, Black Stone Cherry, and Shinedown were all fantastic, but Lizzy stole the show with her powerful vocals, awesome energy, and stage presence.

I usually give the PSA system a hard rock workout whenever I'm doing household chores, and I'm setting up four atmos speakers later today. Wish me luck for getting all four atmos speakers mounted, in wall wired, and setup correctly on the first attempt by myself...haha, I predict there'll some be cursing. Enjoy the concert!
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post #5288 of 8803 Old 08-02-2016, 07:51 AM
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What height from the listeners head is recommended for mounting the MT-110SR since it has an angled design?

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post #5289 of 8803 Old 08-02-2016, 09:04 AM
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I've got mine set so the tweeter is about 30 inches above my ears. It might be considered a little high but I set it a little higher because of the angled design… it sounds great IMO.
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post #5290 of 8803 Old 08-04-2016, 08:00 PM
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I am in the process of finishing our basement and need to start thinking about the HT system. I have been prowling AVSforum and read lots of great praise for PSA. From everything I have read it sounds like the type of speaker I will enjoy. I'm thinking about the 210T's, 210C, and V1500 to start off, with rear speakers to follow eventually. Or maybe right off the bat. I also enjoy listening to music, usually in 2.1 on my current set up in the living room. I have 2 klipsch synergy towers with dual 8's (BB black friday special) and an Elemental Designs A2-300 ported 12" down firing sub (made in Iowa, they're no longer in business). They are powered by a Yamaha RX-V775 receiver. I feel my ears aren't great (due to many years of drumline and a good number of concerts) and honestly I don't think I have a terrible set up now, but want something awesome for the basement. I didn't phrase that very well - I like the overall sound of my Klipsch towers but am looking for more clarity and detail with the basement HT setup. I have ready many people noting punchy midbass on the MTM210's and that sounds great to me. i like punchy.

I know there's a free return policy with PSA if I pay return shipping but is there anyone in Iowa or Illinois that has a PSA set up they would be willing to let me listen to? This is a lot of money for me to spend without ever hearing them first even though I have faith in the design and reviews in this thread. The only other speakers I have listened to recently are some entry level martin logans, which I didn't like much, and a 5.1 RP-280 Klipsch set up at a local home audio store. I thought the rp-280s sounded really nice but wouldn't mind spending more on the PSA set up if it's miles ahead.

I don't even have the carpet down yet but walls are finished so I'm excited to keep going on the basement!

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post #5291 of 8803 Old 08-04-2016, 08:48 PM
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@chomdh you've been prowling AVS for 9 years and only have 7 posts, I suggest you do less prowling and get more involved with more posting, I'd like to hear what you have to say so post on my friend.

Cheers Jeffrey
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post #5292 of 8803 Old 08-04-2016, 09:36 PM
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@chomdh , the Klipsch speakers found in the big box stores are not comparable to the PSA speakers (IMO). All of the margins built into selling through big box stores gets you a mediocre speaker made in Asia. I have a pair of Klipsch Synergy KSF-10.5 towers that were made in the U.S. (carried in stores like Tweeters and The Good Guys back in the day). I have them for nostalgia, [they were the first speaker that made my mouth drop way back in the late 90s when I couldn't afford them]. I find them comparable to the reference line today.

I believe that you have to look into the Klipsch Palladium line (the Zebrawood is gorgeous) to find comparable component quality with PSA, and you will find the Klipsch to be comparitively much more expensive (again margins).

Just a thought, you can trial the 210-C to evaluate the SQ, and it would be inexpensive to return. The 210T will simply have a bit more presence and bass. I like to urge folks to buy subs in pairs if possible. Tom is great to chat with and he can put together a package with a great price for you on the fly.
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post #5293 of 8803 Old 08-05-2016, 04:24 AM
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@chomdh you've been prowling AVS for 9 years and only have 7 posts, I suggest you do less prowling and get more involved with more posting, I'd like to hear what you have to say so post on my friend.

Cheers Jeffrey
Ha! Very observant. The truth is, I may have joined long ago but haven't dedicated much time & effort into my AV gear or actually lurked that much in that time period. This hobby has taken the backseat behind other interests I suppose. Shame on me.

Anyway, now I have a house and think it's time to upgrade to some serious equipment for a basement family room. It's not a dedicated HT room, but about 15'x30' space with a bar at the other end from the TV/couch area. It does reduce down to about 12' in the bar area.

Thanks for the encouragement and I look forward to being more a part of this community.
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post #5294 of 8803 Old 08-05-2016, 06:05 AM
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@chomdh … Congratulations on finishing your basement. I have a similar situation to what you're describing, my basement is not necessarily a dedicated theater but as time has gone by it has become evident that the theater is it's primary use. You are doing the right thing by looking to spend a little extra money upfront to get excellent speakers and subs right off the bat. This will allow you to avoid upgraditis which is a very expensive disease.

If I'm seeing your numbers correctly it looks like you will have around 3600 cu ft (or more) to take into consideration when thinking about subwoofers. IMO ported will be the way to go so the V1500 would be a good sub for your room, but if I were you I would go for the 15V instead. They basically have the same performance level but you will save $150 on the sub which you can put into something else, like a 2nd sub (which I would suggest getting at some point).

The difference between the Klipsch speakers and the PSA speakers is very significant (very very significant). Personally I find lower end Klipsch to be very painful to listen to because they hurt my ears (I find them to be very shrill). This made me nervous about the PSA speakers because I saw they were also horn tweeters and since the Klipsch hurt my ears I feared all horn tweeters would as well. Nothing could be further from the truth. The PSA speakers are neutral and clean…and POWERFUL so they will more than handle your moderately large room.

I don't live in your area but if you want to drive to VA. you are more than welcome to come and listen to my PSA speaker set up.
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post #5295 of 8803 Old 08-05-2016, 08:06 AM
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I believe that you have to look into the Klipsch Palladium line (the Zebrawood is gorgeous) to find comparable component quality with PSA, and you will find the Klipsch to be comparitively much more expensive (again margins).
The made-in-USA Klipsch RF-7 II tower and RC-64 II center are comparable from a component and price standpoint. These Klipsch models use a 1.75" compression driver, and B-stock veneer versions (which I have found to be flawless) are in the price range of the PSA towers and center.

I am sure it has been covered in this thread...but what I don't know is how the SOUND quality compares between the Klipsch models above and the PSA towers and center.
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post #5296 of 8803 Old 08-05-2016, 08:20 AM
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The made-in-USA Klipsch RF-7 II tower and RC-64 II center are comparable from a component and price standpoint. These Klipsch models use a 1.75" compression driver, and B-stock veneer versions (which I have found to be flawless) are in the price range of the PSA towers and center.

I am sure it has been covered in this thread...but what I don't know is how the SOUND quality compares between the Klipsch models above and the PSA towers and center.
If they are comparable from a price standpoint they will not be comparable from component quality standpoint. Klipsch spends a lot of money on marketing and they don't sell direct so distributors and retailers all get a cut. I would think that a comparably priced klipsch speaker would cost 1/3 of the price of a PSA speaker to make.
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post #5297 of 8803 Old 08-05-2016, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by chomdh View Post
I am in the process of finishing our basement and need to start thinking about the HT system. I have been prowling AVSforum and read lots of great praise for PSA. From everything I have read it sounds like the type of speaker I will enjoy. I'm thinking about the 210T's, 210C, and V1500 to start off, with rear speakers to follow eventually. Or maybe right off the bat. I also enjoy listening to music, usually in 2.1 on my current set up in the living room. I have 2 klipsch synergy towers with dual 8's (BB black friday special) and an Elemental Designs A2-300 ported 12" down firing sub (made in Iowa, they're no longer in business). They are powered by a Yamaha RX-V775 receiver. I feel my ears aren't great (due to many years of drumline and a good number of concerts) and honestly I don't think I have a terrible set up now, but want something awesome for the basement. I didn't phrase that very well - I like the overall sound of my Klipsch towers but am looking for more clarity and detail with the basement HT setup. I have ready many people noting punchy midbass on the MTM210's and that sounds great to me. i like punchy.

I know there's a free return policy with PSA if I pay return shipping but is there anyone in Iowa or Illinois that has a PSA set up they would be willing to let me listen to? This is a lot of money for me to spend without ever hearing them first even though I have faith in the design and reviews in this thread. The only other speakers I have listened to recently are some entry level martin logans, which I didn't like much, and a 5.1 RP-280 Klipsch set up at a local home audio store. I thought the rp-280s sounded really nice but wouldn't mind spending more on the PSA set up if it's miles ahead.

I don't even have the carpet down yet but walls are finished so I'm excited to keep going on the basement!
Not Iowa or Illinois, however, Michigan, available for an test audition per my sig (almost) any time.


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post #5298 of 8803 Old 08-05-2016, 11:16 AM
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Not Iowa or Illinois, however, Michigan, available for an test audition per my sig (almost) any time.

Great! I'll be right over. I'm in Grand Rapids.

Just kidding. Not about the GR part, but about dropping by for a demo

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post #5299 of 8803 Old 08-05-2016, 12:20 PM
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If they are comparable from a price standpoint they will not be comparable from component quality standpoint. Klipsch spends a lot of money on marketing and they don't sell direct so distributors and retailers all get a cut. I would think that a comparably priced klipsch speaker would cost 1/3 of the price of a PSA speaker to make.
The Klipsch RF-7 II sell for $3,200/pair, but you can get B-stock veneer for $1,900/pair. Without some objective measurements, it's hard to say how the PSA and RF-7 II component quality would compare. Better wording on my part would have been something on the lines of "similar driver compliment and cabinet size/weight".

Regardless, I think the PSA towers and Klipsch RF-7 II are an interesting paring for comparison, and it would be cool to see comparative measurement data on them, as well as listening impressions.
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post #5300 of 8803 Old 08-05-2016, 12:22 PM
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Great! I'll be right over. I'm in Grand Rapids.

Just kidding. Not about the GR part, but about dropping by for a demo
I was not kidding ;-)

And BTW, it is Coast Guard Weekend, so you have more than one reason to be in the SL / GH area

You bring the B, I have the B&B: Beer, Beats & Bass
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post #5301 of 8803 Old 08-05-2016, 12:36 PM
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If they are comparable from a price standpoint they will not be comparable from component quality standpoint. Klipsch spends a lot of money on marketing and they don't sell direct so distributors and retailers all get a cut. I would think that a comparably priced klipsch speaker would cost 1/3 of the price of a PSA speaker to make.
They do spend a *huge* amount of non engineering related expenses to be sure. I'd be surprised if 5% of their annual budget had anything to do with r/d but that's just a guess. On the other hand they also have the *economics of scale* in their favor. We can negotiate pricing based on 250-500 tweeters or woofers. They might be able to do the same for 2500 to 5000.

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post #5302 of 8803 Old 08-05-2016, 12:53 PM
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The Klipsch RF-7 II sell for $3,200/pair, but you can get B-stock veneer for $1,900/pair. Without some objective measurements, it's hard to say how the PSA and RF-7 II component quality would compare. Better wording on my part would have been something on the lines of "similar driver compliment and cabinet size/weight".

Regardless, I think the PSA towers and Klipsch RF-7 II are an interesting paring for comparison, and it would be cool to see comparative measurement data on them, as well as listening impressions.
I wouldn't expect the two products to sound similar---not at all really. There's really nothing shared between them except the idea of a compression tweeter+wave guide to control the tweeter dispersion. We could look at a million and one speaker designs that have some variation of a "soft dome tweeter" and no wave guide----would the expectation be that all of these speakers will sound the same/similar? Of course not.. And there are certainly very different design goals apparent between the fr-7ii and the 210s. The FR jumps out---they are sacrificing efficiency trying to get down to 35hz(?). We're more worried about maintaining high efficiency (98dB). I'd guess the true sensitivity of the 7ii to be around 94-95dB. Above average to be sure...but there's a big difference between 94 and 98dB.

Anyway, I'm probably a little bias in these discussions because I must get 50 chats/call/emails a month saying the same thing. "Hey, I'd thinking about trying your speakers but I heard some klipsch and they gave me a major headache. Since your design is the same...will your speakers give me a headache too?"

What I'd LIKE to say... "yes, of course. that was our primary design goal. But we include a bottle of ibuprofen with every purchase so you're good..."

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post #5303 of 8803 Old 08-05-2016, 11:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by adam2434 View Post
The Klipsch RF-7 II sell for $3,200/pair, but you can get B-stock veneer for $1,900/pair. Without some objective measurements, it's hard to say how the PSA and RF-7 II component quality would compare. Better wording on my part would have been something on the lines of "similar driver compliment and cabinet size/weight".

Regardless, I think the PSA towers and Klipsch RF-7 II are an interesting paring for comparison, and it would be cool to see comparative measurement data on them, as well as listening impressions.
Horn loaded compression drivers and Horn loaded soft dome tweeters are not even close to the same thing.

This is how good the 210T is...I think they sound better then the flagship Khorn. I doubt the RF7ii are on the Khorns level either. Klipsch should include a bottle of ibuprofen with most of their speaker line....excluding Lascalla, Heressey, and Khorn.
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post #5304 of 8803 Old 08-06-2016, 07:10 AM
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Horn loaded compression drivers and Horn loaded soft dome tweeters are not even close to the same thing.

This is how good the 210T is...I think they sound better then the flagship Khorn. I doubt the RF7ii are on the Khorns level either. Klipsch should include a bottle of ibuprofen with most of their speaker line....excluding Lascalla, Heressey, and Khorn.
The RF-7 II does use a titanium compression driver. I use a pair an a secondary 2-ch system. They can be a bit bright with some material at high levels, but less so than the RP-280F I owned for a while. The RF-7 II can play very loud without signs of strain/distortion, but again, can sound bright/sharp at high levels (turning the treble down to -1 or -2 tames the brightness at high levels).

I was not trying to imply that the RF-7 II and 210T would sound similar - in fact, I'm interested in understanding the specifics of how they sound different. I get the impression from your and Tom V.'s comments that the 210T sounds more neutral (no hint of brightness), which is certainly appealing to me. I can't use a sub in the secondary 2-ch system due to space constraints, so I went with the RF-7 II for their more full range capabilities. I will definitely consider PSA for my HT system if/when I decide to change speakers.
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post #5305 of 8803 Old 08-06-2016, 07:53 AM
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Horn loaded compression drivers and Horn loaded soft dome tweeters are not even close to the same thing.
BH81, I don't think Klipsch uses soft dome tweeters. Their marketing department just decided that horn-loaded compression driver and tweeter were interchangeable and easier for marketing to Joe 6Pack.

The Klipschorn is so room dependent and has so many generations it doesn't even fit in this discussion.

The Palladium series is their only offering that interests me. They utilize two horns each, for mid and high. I don't think they sell many though, as they are often discounted as much as 50% off.

For anyone who thinks they want full-range towers, I learned a lesson last year. After buying a UMIK and using REW I realized just how important a properly integrated subwoofer was, even for 2ch. Running mains full range is less than ideal. With room gain, my Mirage OMD-28s extend down to 18Hz! However, when I looked at the distortion measurements it was between 10-25% distortion until ~60Hz. The Klipsch KSF-10.5s were overly distorted until ~80Hz. There is credence to the recommendation of setting tower speakers to small/80Hz.

Once you get the subwoofer properly integrated with the mains it sounds so much better than trying to run the front speakers full range!

Food for thought.
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post #5306 of 8803 Old 08-06-2016, 04:11 PM - Thread Starter
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BH81, I don't think Klipsch uses soft dome tweeters. Their marketing department just decided that horn-loaded compression driver and tweeter were interchangeable and easier for marketing to Joe 6Pack.

The Klipschorn is so room dependent and has so many generations it doesn't even fit in this discussion.

The Palladium series is their only offering that interests me. They utilize two horns each, for mid and high. I don't think they sell many though, as they are often discounted as much as 50% off.

For anyone who thinks they want full-range towers, I learned a lesson last year. After buying a UMIK and using REW I realized just how important a properly integrated subwoofer was, even for 2ch. Running mains full range is less than ideal. With room gain, my Mirage OMD-28s extend down to 18Hz! However, when I looked at the distortion measurements it was between 10-25% distortion until ~60Hz. The Klipsch KSF-10.5s were overly distorted until ~80Hz. There is credence to the recommendation of setting tower speakers to small/80Hz.

Once you get the subwoofer properly integrated with the mains it sounds so much better than trying to run the front speakers full range!
Food for thought.
You may be right but they sure sound more harsh to me...last set of Klipsch I owned were RB81's...not the 5th generations tho.The Khorns I have are from the mid 80's and they sound great. Like you say very room dependent, but take very little power to drive. They are very nice just huge. I agree a properly integrated subwoofer makes all the difference, but the advantage of the 210T's is the midrange...first speaker I have ever heard that you can feel a symbol hit in the couch.

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post #5307 of 8803 Old 08-07-2016, 09:28 AM
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For anyone who thinks they want full-range towers, I learned a lesson last year. After buying a UMIK and using REW I realized just how important a properly integrated subwoofer was, even for 2ch. Running mains full range is less than ideal. With room gain, my Mirage OMD-28s extend down to 18Hz! However, when I looked at the distortion measurements it was between 10-25% distortion until ~60Hz. The Klipsch KSF-10.5s were overly distorted until ~80Hz. There is credence to the recommendation of setting tower speakers to small/80Hz.
Is the distortion from the the tower speakers themselves, or from room interactions that are mitigated with sub integration?

Seems like comparative distortion in bass would depend on the specific towers and sub. Theoretically, one could have very high performance full-range speakers and a crappy sub. Wouldn't it be possible that the sub would produce more distortion than the towers? I imagine that at a certain level of sub performance (and associated cost), you cross over into lower distortion vs. typical full-range speakers.
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post #5308 of 8803 Old 08-07-2016, 11:06 AM
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Is the distortion from the the tower speakers themselves, or from room interactions that are mitigated with sub integration?

Seems like comparative distortion in bass would depend on the specific towers and sub. Theoretically, one could have very high performance full-range speakers and a crappy sub. Wouldn't it be possible that the sub would produce more distortion than the towers? I imagine that at a certain level of sub performance (and associated cost), you cross over into lower distortion vs. typical full-range speakers.


Distortion shouldn't spike because you're crossing over the towers to a sub(s). So I would assume that because he measured an in-room 18hz response, but gave some distortion percentages that he was running without a sub, or with a sub crossed at 60hz.

If you have a solid pair of towers and a less than average or capable sub, and you're pushing the volume levels up and up, then yes, most likely the sub will produce more distortion and tap-out before the towers do.

You don't crossover into distortion. I don't understand that really or what you're trying to mean.
You cross speakers over to subs because practical towers cannot reproduce frequencies that are considered LFE (or ULF) with any authority, any many other reasons. If anything, at the crossover point there would be less distortion because those frequencies would be rolled off depending on the order of crossover used and the sub would begin picking up where the speaker leaves off.

However, distortion can increase if you're crossing over the towers below their tuning point. So if a tower is tuned to 60hz, and you're crossing that tower over to a sub at 40hz, then excursion will spike.

------------------------------------------------
Receiver : Denon x5200
Front Stage : L/R - Statements by Jim Holtz
Surround Speakers : Klipsch RF-82II x 4 / RP-280F x 2
Subwooferage : 6 UM18/4 HT18 Subwoofer Log

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post #5309 of 8803 Old 08-07-2016, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by adam2434 View Post
Is the distortion from the the tower speakers themselves, or from room interactions that are mitigated with sub integration?

Seems like comparative distortion in bass would depend on the specific towers and sub. Theoretically, one could have very high performance full-range speakers and a crappy sub. Wouldn't it be possible that the sub would produce more distortion than the towers? I imagine that at a certain level of sub performance (and associated cost), you cross over into lower distortion vs. typical full-range speakers.
Measurements of the tower speakers were done with no subwoofer, the speaker pulled away from any walls, the mic 3 ft away, and SPL measuring ~75dB with pink noise. Full range sweeps from 0 - 2kHz. I am guessing the distortion would rise as SPL rises. There is also potential IM distortion.

When I test with speakers in normal position from MLP is when I get the 18Hz extension on the Mirage. I do see very high levels of noise at nulls, but this holds true whether it is speaker or subwoofer.

I hope that helps to clear up some questions. YMMV
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post #5310 of 8803 Old 08-07-2016, 12:47 PM
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BTW

The Mirage OMD-28s have two 8" carbon fibre woofers w/down facing port. Port tune: 26Hz

The Klipsch KSF-10.5 has two 8 inch drivers and a rear facing port. Port tune: ???
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