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post #31 of 107 Old 09-22-2014, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by NAIM101 View Post
Are you using this for HT and music? For HT, always use 720P over 1080P. You will find sound is much better for a subtle picture degrade. Nothing darbee processor can't fix. It's 299.00 but makes 720P look better than 1080P without it.



anyway, 720p over 1080P. Try it, it'll sound much better.

Over Hdmi?

Gotta say this is the first time I've ever heard of someone downrezing their picture quality to enhance the audio.


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post #32 of 107 Old 09-22-2014, 02:33 PM
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That is a large room and a speakers output efficiency would definitely come into play. And yes, the pro sound oriented speakers would definitely play louder. The speaker choices the op mentioned all seem to be geared more to sound quality than quantity. I have never heard JTR or other such high output speakers. I know they have many fans. And I'm not saying they are better for ht than stereo, Again I've never heard them. I went to Axpona a few years ago with the intent to audition as many speakers in my price range as possible. What I found was a lot of highly touted speakers set up in rooms with terrible acoustics. I bought my speakers without ever having heard them based on glowing reviews. I guess I got lucky. Good luck in your search Shelly, let us know what you land on.

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post #33 of 107 Old 09-22-2014, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by ambesolman View Post
Over Hdmi?

Gotta say this is the first time I've ever heard of someone downrezing their picture quality to enhance the audio.


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His posts have lots of claims that, well, puzzle the mind.
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post #34 of 107 Old 09-22-2014, 03:03 PM
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720 sounds better than 1080P? You learn something new everyday.
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post #35 of 107 Old 09-22-2014, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by ClarkeBar View Post
If you're dropping down to the $10K level from the selections in your first post which are considerably more, also consider the Aerial Acoustics 7T. And yes, with your stated electronics and a decent room, you should still benefit from speakers in the price categories mentioned.

Perhaps drop to the $10K - $15K level and spend some of the money that would otherwise have gone to higher priced speakers on sources and anything else in the chain you think needs upgrading. The thought of giving yourself a full treat like the Salon 2s or the Magicos must be tempting ... but you might end up second guessing your SQ improvements(?) knowing there is still less quality in important areas. If it were me deciding at those levels, I would likely go with Thiel 3.7s at $14k. But the Focals are right there as well.

+1. That's what I would do. Try to spend evenly throughout.

In kindergarten video terms, just because you have a 4K capable T.V (speakers) if you process your video scaler (DAC/Pre) under 420P,your not getting the most of it.

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post #36 of 107 Old 09-22-2014, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
720 sounds better than 1080P? You learn something new everyday.
It's very true. Try it at home, you'll notice improvements. Away from digital a bit. Make sure you source it down to PCM though.
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post #37 of 107 Old 09-22-2014, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by ambesolman View Post
Over Hdmi?

Gotta say this is the first time I've ever heard of someone downrezing their picture quality to enhance the audio.


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Yep, 1080P over 720P over HDMI. Processed through PCM. Just try clicking back and forth.
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post #38 of 107 Old 09-22-2014, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by g_bartman View Post
There is certainly a lot of debate in the audio world about diminishing returns. Where is the price vs performance line? I drive my Aerial Acoustics 7t's with a Mcintosh Mc252 that is fed by a marantz av8801. I bought the mc and 7t's used, that saved me a lot of money off new retail and both pieces are like new. If you are going to audition speakers, I seriously recommend you check out the Aerials if you can, along with as many other speakers in your price range as possible. If you have the means to buy your dream system, I say go for it. If others think you overspent, it's not their money.

Throughout all my time listening, buying, selling, dumping money, trading repededly I come to find out in my personal experience when you spend about 10K in gear, you would get about 5K worth of sound. What I mean is, I'd be happy if I spent 5K on a 10k system I'm hearing.

I've swapped many gears, and I think this goes for all variety of audio setup but the fact stays true.

spent 5k, I'd be happy and satisfied when spent 2.5K, 2.5k system, 1.3k etc.

where do I base this on. Other stuff in life I've spent money on in general and the good times I've had it paying the price.

so in general, in audio, I think it's 50% overpriced.


P.S - I'm talking price ratio in terms of audio components that are generally known to be "good value" throughout.


-peace

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post #39 of 107 Old 09-22-2014, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NAIM101 View Post
Yep, 1080P over 720P over HDMI. Processed through PCM. Just try clicking back and forth.

I'll give it a whirl. Btw, any chance you can tell me what the color 9 smells like?


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post #40 of 107 Old 09-22-2014, 05:14 PM
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If you have such a large room and spend that much money, have you considered legacy whisper sdx. I heard it at a show and it was in the top 2 speaker there. They are active amp with dsp to dial in the room. However they are very large but true fullrange and should be able to deliver outrageously loud levels. (Think live sound level). They are way more than anything I can afford but if I have $, they are my first choice.
http://www.legacyaudio.com/products/fronts-and-mains/

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post #41 of 107 Old 09-22-2014, 08:05 PM - Thread Starter
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The Whispers are way to big.....


Right now, I am using a pair of Monitor audio 2 way standmounts.....


I like the impact, and dynamics of a bigger speaker.......but also to be clean at higher volumes.....
..and like I mentioned earlier in the thread....it is a big room..... so I think towers are the way to go....


Shelly
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post #42 of 107 Old 09-22-2014, 08:32 PM
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Lot of members have tried to help the OP with it's original question.
But why this forum as come to the point of trying to push the OP in a complete different direction?

As a disclaimer;
I own seperate and love it, but never try to push someone into a total different direction.
If in the future that person can afford seperate or better speakers, go for it (many sugestion I made was, for a little more..).
If not Enjoy!

This site should be about helping each other and not trying to push your own personal agenda.
Is it just me?

Ray

Sorry about the spelling, English is a second language and learn to spell all by self.
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post #43 of 107 Old 09-22-2014, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shelly40 View Post
The Whispers are way to big.....


Right now, I am using a pair of Monitor audio 2 way standmounts.....


I like the impact, and dynamics of a bigger speaker.......but also to be clean at higher volumes.....
..and like I mentioned earlier in the thread....it is a big room..... so I think towers are the way to go....


Shelly
I also prefer towers over Bookshelf, I personally beleive they can do more impact/dynamics than tower.
That said, we gain just a little not much [when cross at 80hz (for some Yes, Others No)].
It is like like better DAC from a pre-amp versus one from a receiver (receiver came so much a long way).

Like Bill said it come to a point you spend a lot more and get very little for it (I fall in this camp, my only hobby).

What, I trying to say is;
if you can afford it, good for you, if not, do not lose sleep over it.

Just Enjoy!

Ray
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post #44 of 107 Old 09-22-2014, 09:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthray View Post
Lot of members have tried to help the OP with it's original question.
But why this forum as come to the point of trying to push the OP in a complete different direction?

As a disclaimer;
I own seperate and love it, but never try to push someone into a total different direction.
If in the future that person can afford seperate or better speakers, go for it (many sugestion I made was, for a little more..).
If not Enjoy!

This site should be about helping each other and not trying to push your own personal agenda.
Is it just me?

Ray

Sorry about the spelling, English is a second language and learn to spell all by self.

I agree.....


My way of thinking is that a pair of speakers, upgrading from what I have, will give a much greater improvement, than a separate amp and preamp, and DAC.....


I mean the Denon 5308 is not a bottom of the line receiver.....I do use the preouts to use a better amp.....all the receiver powers is my outdoor speakers, and the surrounds.....


Is a Krell preamp going to improve the sound more than a nice pair of tower speakers ?


I would doubt it.....


Shelly
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post #45 of 107 Old 09-23-2014, 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted by clpetersen View Post
I second the opinion for Aerial Acoustics 7T's. I have the slightly smaller 6T's for our room. Currently powering them with a small (half chassis) Naim NAP 100 amp, very simple dual mono design and just 75W into 4 ohms. For 98% of listening this is enough. The NAP-100 will be replaced eventually by something larger (see the Aerial thread for amp suggestions).
clpetersen,

Excellent speakers! I now officially have a case of speaker envy. Just read the review on HomeTheaterReview.com. Seem to be much of what the 7Ts are but more affordable (for Aerial). Love the 7T but with the 6T it looks like spending somewhere between the price range of the Synchrony Ones and the 7Ts would achieve what I desire in an upgrade.

What size room are they in?

Paul
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post #46 of 107 Old 09-23-2014, 05:23 AM
 
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Is a Krell preamp going to improve the sound more than a nice pair of tower speakers ?
I would doubt it.....
+1. There are some numbers that matter, and there are some that don't. For instance, one can very easily be impressed by an amp that has 0.001% THD and assume that it must sound better than one with 0.1% THD. The flaw in that assumption is that you can't even hear 1% THD.
Quote:
..and like I mentioned earlier in the thread....it is a big room..... so I think towers are the way to go....
Towers have one and only one advantage over bookshelves, that being low frequency capability. If you don't have subs that matters. If you do, it doesn't. OTOH where placement is concerned low frequency sources and higher frequency sources very seldom work as well as possible when sharing the same footprint. 99% of the time you will get a better result with bookshelves placed where they work best, and subs placed where they work best. The size of the room doesn't change that fact. This room is considerably larger than yours, but you'll note that the system still consists of 'bookshelves', ie., speakers optimized for use above 80Hz, and separate subs:
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post #47 of 107 Old 09-23-2014, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
Towers have one and only one advantage over bookshelves, that being low frequency capability. If you don't have subs that matters. If you do, it doesn't. OTOH where placement is concerned low frequency sources and higher frequency sources very seldom work as well as possible when sharing the same footprint. 99% of the time you will get a better result with bookshelves placed where they work best, and subs placed where they work best. The size of the room doesn't change that fact. This room is considerably larger than yours, but you'll note that the system still consists of 'bookshelves', ie., speakers optimized for use above 80Hz, and separate subs:
I would say towers have two advantages. The second being related to 2 channel. And that's a well executed crossover to the low frequency driver. Granted, that advantage may be significantly reduced at the hands of an experienced calibrator of a sub/sat system, but for many tinkerers the tower crossover has a very good chance of being audibly superior, at least in a 2 channel system with one or two listening positions.

I fully realize though that any advantage the superior crossover infers could easily be made irrelevant by frequency response nightmares caused by room modal issues - as you noted. But when dealing with a single listening position or so for stereo music listening, and the stars align, it can be an advantage IMO.

But for HT with multiple seating positions I can't think of a scenario where distributed subs would not be an advantage over full range towers.
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post #48 of 107 Old 09-23-2014, 08:23 AM
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[QUOTE=ClarkeBar;27643369]clpetersen,

Excellent speakers! I now officially have a case of speaker envy. Just read the review on HomeTheaterReview.com. Seem to be much of what the 7Ts are but more affordable (for Aerial). Love the 7T but with the 6T it looks like spending somewhere between the price range of the Synchrony Ones and the 7Ts would achieve what I desire in an upgrade.

What size room are they in?

Keep an eye on the used market, that's how I scored my 7's for a little less than the6's go for. That htr review is what caused me to blind purchase mine. The fact that a friend of his sold his Magicos after hearing the Aerials was impressive. Mine are in a 15x30 room driven by a 250wpc Mcintosh and I never feel the volume is lacking. I promise no more posts about Aerial, not trying to derail this thread.
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post #49 of 107 Old 09-23-2014, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkeBar View Post
clpetersen,

Excellent speakers! I now officially have a case of speaker envy. Just read the review on HomeTheaterReview.com. Seem to be much of what the 7Ts are but more affordable (for Aerial). Love the 7T but with the 6T it looks like spending somewhere between the price range of the Synchrony Ones and the 7Ts would achieve what I desire in an upgrade.

What size room are they in?

Paul
Hello Paul - the room is about 15' wide and 20' long. There is a seating/reading area about 10' in front of the speakers, the area behind this reading spot is mostly open and connects to other spaces. Somewhat open floor plan. Speakers are about 2.5' from the side walls and 2' from rear wall. As it turns out, we live in the Boston area and the speakers were delivered by Aerial Acoustics who are located about 10 miles outside the city (see post in Aerial thread for details if interested). So, I got some expert set-up help.

Form factor is perfect for our situation and sound is excellent. No regrets. Nice to look at, better to listen to.

Yes, looked the Synchrony's too. Neither is a bad choice. Synchrony's were a little more emphasized in the bass as I recall.

>>also, like g_bartman, my last Aerial post in this thread<<
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post #50 of 107 Old 09-23-2014, 09:30 AM
 
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Speakers are about ...2' from rear wall.
That will result in an Allison Effect cancellation dip centered around 140Hz. Allison Effect is the primary reason why separate subs and mains work better, as the subs can be placed close enough to the wall behind the speakers and the mains far enough away from it, or flush mounted in it, so that there is no cancellation dip.
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post #51 of 107 Old 09-23-2014, 11:26 AM
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I would say towers have two advantages. The second being related to 2 channel. And that's a well executed crossover to the low frequency driver. Granted, that advantage may be significantly reduced at the hands of an experienced calibrator of a sub/sat system, but for many tinkerers the tower crossover has a very good chance of being audibly superior, at least in a 2 channel system with one or two listening positions.

I fully realize though that any advantage the superior crossover infers could easily be made irrelevant by frequency response nightmares caused by room modal issues - as you noted. But when dealing with a single listening position or so for stereo music listening, and the stars align, it can be an advantage IMO.

But for HT with multiple seating positions I can't think of a scenario where distributed subs would not be an advantage over full range towers.

I get the idea on paper. Take a good bookshelf and a good subwoofer and bam, you've got all of the sonic basses covered for less money. However, I've just never heard this workout better than towers and a sub. I know towers and a sub is more expensive, and the sonic difference justifies the price difference IMO. Keep in mind that if you use a receiver's bass management, and set it at 80 hz, you're still getting sound in your mains below 80 hz; it's not a brick wall. The towers just allow a more seamless transition, and fuller sound in my experience.
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post #52 of 107 Old 09-23-2014, 11:43 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
+1. There are some numbers that matter, and there are some that don't. For instance, one can very easily be impressed by an amp that has 0.001% THD and assume that it must sound better than one with 0.1% THD. The flaw in that assumption is that you can't even hear 1% THD.
Towers have one and only one advantage over bookshelves, that being low frequency capability. If you don't have subs that matters. If you do, it doesn't. OTOH where placement is concerned low frequency sources and higher frequency sources very seldom work as well as possible when sharing the same footprint. 99% of the time you will get a better result with bookshelves placed where they work best, and subs placed where they work best. The size of the room doesn't change that fact. This room is considerably larger than yours, but you'll note that the system still consists of 'bookshelves', ie., speakers optimized for use above 80Hz, and separate subs:
So what would you recommend as higher end bookshelf speakers for home theater in a larger room? Up to the original posters limit of $10,000?
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post #53 of 107 Old 09-23-2014, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by ClawAndTalon View Post
I get the idea on paper. Take a good bookshelf and a good subwoofer and bam, you've got all of the sonic basses covered for less money. However, I've just never heard this workout better than towers and a sub. I know towers and a sub is more expensive, and the sonic difference justifies the price difference IMO. Keep in mind that if you use a receiver's bass management, and set it at 80 hz, you're still getting sound in your mains below 80 hz; it's not a brick wall. The towers just allow a more seamless transition, and fuller sound in my experience.
Just like towers, monitors come in all different price ranges. The reason to use a monitor and sub instead of a tower and sub has nothing to do with price. It is just simply a waste of resources and drivers to use a tower that extends below the audible crossover region.

Towers do not allow for a more seamless transition compared to a properly specified monitor in the same application. How could it??
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post #54 of 107 Old 09-23-2014, 12:05 PM
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Just like towers, monitors come in all different price ranges. The reason to use a monitor and sub instead of a tower and sub has nothing to do with price. It is just simply a waste of resources and drivers to use a tower that extends below the audible crossover region.

Towers do not allow for a more seamless transition compared to a properly specified monitor in the same application. How could it??


Just like towers, monitors come in all different price ranges.


In my experience, using towers and bookshelves of similar price and or quality (same series), I’ve still preferred the tower/sub combo. I don't claim to have tried all makes and models of bookshelves, but I've had my hands on plenty of different ones.


Thereason to use a monitor and sub instead of a tower and sub has nothing to dowith price. It is just simply a waste of resources and drivers to use a tower that extends below the audiblecrossover region.


More resources are usually reflected and quantified by higher prices. Seldom is there a free lunch. Comparable bookshelves in the same series as towers are almost always cheaper. If they were the same price there would be even less reason to get bookshelves. You’re also forgetting that with proper receiver bass management set at 80hz, your speakers are still receiving sound down to <40hz, which is the functional limit to most towers. So your drivers aren’t being wasted, they are in fact still being nearly fully utilized.

Towers do not allow for a more seamless transition compared to a properly specified monitor in the same application. How could it??


Forgive me in wanting to skirt further technical debate. I’ve found it gets nowhere. What I’ve found in my experience is that a tower/sub combo, to me, sounds better than a bookshelf/sub combo, when price and quality are properly respected. I consider the sonic difference to be that of more seamless transience, and also more output. YMMV

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post #55 of 107 Old 09-23-2014, 02:17 PM - Thread Starter
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[quote=g_bartman;27647769]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkeBar View Post
clpetersen,

Excellent speakers! I now officially have a case of speaker envy. Just read the review on HomeTheaterReview.com. Seem to be much of what the 7Ts are but more affordable (for Aerial). Love the 7T but with the 6T it looks like spending somewhere between the price range of the Synchrony Ones and the 7Ts would achieve what I desire in an upgrade.

What size room are they in?

Keep an eye on the used market, that's how I scored my 7's for a little less than the6's go for. That htr review is what caused me to blind purchase mine. The fact that a friend of his sold his Magicos after hearing the Aerials was impressive. Mine are in a 15x30 room driven by a 250wpc Mcintosh and I never feel the volume is lacking. I promise no more posts about Aerial, not trying to derail this thread.
I will have to check out the 7T......
So many people are so high on them.....

Which Magico speakers were sold to get the 7T?

I am considering the Magico S3, or a pair of S5 demos......

The S5, I was very impressed with.... Nice volume, very clean, forceful, very dynamic presentation..

S3 is the same tweeter and midrange as the S5, but has two 8" woofers, as opposed to two 10" woofers that are in the S5...... S3 is also a smaller cabinet....but still a nice size.....

Have not heard the S3 yet......
With the same tweeter and midrange, I am thinking the performance should be very similar, other than the low bass......Hope I am right........

Shelly
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post #56 of 107 Old 09-23-2014, 02:26 PM
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Hi end speakers with some mid tier equipment

I heard some Sonus Fabers that were listed at 10k a couple months ago. Don't remember the model but they sounded great. Beautiful cabinet too.


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post #57 of 107 Old 09-23-2014, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
That will result in an Allison Effect cancellation dip centered around 140Hz. Allison Effect is the primary reason why separate subs and mains work better, as the subs can be placed close enough to the wall behind the speakers and the mains far enough away from it, or flush mounted in it, so that there is no cancellation dip.
Interesting. In that case, where do you recommend positioning the speakers?
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post #58 of 107 Old 09-23-2014, 03:03 PM
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[quote=shelly40;27659105]
Quote:
Originally Posted by g_bartman View Post

I will have to check out the 7T......
So many people are so high on them.....

Which Magico speakers were sold to get the 7T?

I am considering the Magico S3, or a pair of S5 demos......

The S5, I was very impressed with.... Nice volume, very clean, forceful, very dynamic presentation..

S3 is the same tweeter and midrange as the S5, but has two 8" woofers, as opposed to two 10" woofers that are in the S5...... S3 is also a smaller cabinet....but still a nice size.....

Have not heard the S3 yet......
With the same tweeter and midrange, I am thinking the performance should be very similar, other than the low bass......Hope I am right........

Shelly
I believe it was the q3's. You can check out the HomeTheaterReview but I'm almost sure that was it. Obviously that does not mean one speaker is better than the other, just that particular listeners taste.

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post #59 of 107 Old 09-23-2014, 03:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clpetersen View Post
Interesting. In that case, where do you recommend positioning the speakers?
The baffle of the subs need to be less than 1/4 wavelength from the wall, the baffle of the mains more than 1/4 wavelength. For an 80Hz crossover from the subs to the mains 1/4 wavelength at 80Hz is 3.5 feet, so less than 3 feet for the subs and more than 4 feet for the mains works well. If you don't have subs then you can't eliminate Allison Effect unless the speakers are either flush mounted in the wall or the baffle is close enough to the wall so that the 1/4 wavelength frequency is above the baffle step frequency, where radiation is directional and there is no reflection off the rear wall. The baffle step frequency is where the baffle is 1 wavelength wide. At about 8 inches wide the 6T baffle step is around 1600Hz, the 13 inch depth is 1/4 wavelength at 260Hz, so close to the wall placement won't help.
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post #60 of 107 Old 09-23-2014, 07:55 PM
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^^Great post Bill. Thanks for detailing that answer.
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