Another North East GTG (Go To Gorilla's)! - Page 47 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1381 of 1814 Old 12-10-2014, 08:50 AM
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I agree that there shouldn't be any EQ, especially for the highs. I don't EQ mine and love the way they sound but who knows, maybe I'm going deaf....

With the 212's sometimes on metal/hard rock that seemed lifeless I would bump up the EQ from 8-20 khz and to liven up the sound but I don't do anything with the 215s.

I think if you didn't like the 215's with no EQ you just didn't like them period. I think people are trying to be nice when they say the 215's should have been eq'd and I understand that but no worries, I don't think any of us with 215's are going to be offended.
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post #1382 of 1814 Old 12-10-2014, 08:55 AM
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In my mind there is not an achievable "standard" in "perceived" sound quality (i.e. what sound great to me may sound like crap to you). Yes, there are engineering standards but unfortunately there are many poorly engineered designs that can sound good under certain conditions. Both the M2's and 215's are nearing the top of the food chain in loudspeaker design/execution. Because they have completely different target audiences it is not surprising that they sound different in the same acoustic space. Put these two heavy hitters in a different space and the preferences may be completely different, this is supported by the observations we had with the Reaction Audio CX-15's!

Everyone is biased to some degree in what we find important in sound reproduction. I like reading all the G2G threads but I always take the participants results with a grain of salt (even my own). There are to many variables that cannot, or are not, controlled - because who determines which variables are important and what represents control (EQ - okay, but do we EQ the HF up for some of the crowd with rolled off hearing or down for the 20 yr old who has extended range [note: even this is skewed because freq roll off by age is an averaged event - some people exhibit very little/no roll off while for others it is quite severe], bass is always a tricky monster to tame - what sound optimal to one participant will sound anemic to another).

I do love the post event discussions as I find them equal value to the actual event.
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post #1383 of 1814 Old 12-10-2014, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post
Finished product for whose room though? You can design a speaker to sound fabulous in one type of environment, but it may sound like garbage in another. It's impossible to make a one-size-fits-all speaker. Impossible.




Does anyone need to tell you that you'll have to put oil in your car, or is it just something you do because it's the best way to ensure the thing works properly? Same with EQ.


[SIZE=2][SIZE=3]

The default 'curve', whatever Audyssey/MCACC/etc would set it for. IMHO, that would be a level playing field and extract the best from all the speakers. It would also be how pretty much everyone else would use them anyway. I think that would have eliminated a lot of the "sounded off" and "can't put my finger on it" comments. No EQ = poor integration.
I would never put Audyssey on my 215's. I have found that it is like putting a sheet over them and playing them. It also hacks the bass off them. Kinda of the point of Audyssey, but I like them a little more wild. My next processor will not have audyssey.
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post #1384 of 1814 Old 12-10-2014, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
I would never put Audyssey on my 215's. I have found that it is like putting a sheet over them and playing them. It also hacks the bass off them. Kinda of the point of Audyssey, but I like them a little more wild. My next processor will not have audyssey.
Neither would I...

I have tried Audyssey, and hated it... tried it again, hated it again...

(others may like Audyssey, I am sure)
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post #1385 of 1814 Old 12-10-2014, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
I agree that there shouldn't be any EQ, especially for the highs. I don't EQ mine and love the way they sound but who knows, maybe I'm going deaf....

With the 212's sometimes on metal/hard rock that seemed lifeless I would bump up the EQ from 8-20 khz and to liven up the sound but I don't do anything with the 215s.

I think if you didn't like the 215's with no EQ you just didn't like them period. I think people are trying to be nice when they say the 215's should have been eq'd and I understand that but no worries, I don't think any of us with 215's are going to be offended.
I cannot wait to hear them in your space while the sound of Dave's in Andrew's is somewhat fresh. One potential item that is very hard to address in a G2G is position of the speaker. I tinkered with my speakers for months before I dialed them just as I like (toe in, distance from back/side walls, etc.). Sometimes a very minor change drastically changes the way the speakers interact with the room, making them sound either better or worse. Sometimes what sound better at first drives me nuts after a few days of steady listening.

Yep, I am bored at work today....

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post #1386 of 1814 Old 12-10-2014, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
@RMK - I've never read that Jeff thinks his speakers should be EQd...it would be nice if his customers understood his thoughts on his speakers better but that is my opinion.

I think active speakers are "how the designer intended" and should be heard with all DSP enabled. Even something like the M2 with its built-in room DSP should potentially be heard "as intended." And I disagree that a speaker with an active design has an inherent advantage, I think the Cat12 is a very nice speaker but without (additional) EQ, with the 212s sans EQ, I personally like the 212 better. Neither is perfect of course, I haven't heard that speaker yet.

Sounds like a great time RMK! Hope everyone has a great time.
I did not say that "Jeff thinks his speakers should be EQd". I said he currently designs them for a flat response (free space) and leaves the final response to the users preference. I agree it would be "nice" if Jeff were a better communicator (even better would be if he were an very attractive woman ) . If you get him talking (good luck with that) he usually does a good job of explaining what he does and why but he is no Mark Seaton, that's for sure.
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post #1387 of 1814 Old 12-10-2014, 09:16 AM
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Audyssey completely toned down my JTR Triple 12's when I had them. Didn't like the sound at all.
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post #1388 of 1814 Old 12-10-2014, 09:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Not even a valid analogy. The valid analogy is, if you had bought a car, and you find out it's not properly tuned and chokes as you chug along, and then you need to have a mechanic tune it for you before you can run it.. that's the proper analogy.

Using your analogy, if you bought a speaker and forgot to give it power, then yeah, that's like not putting gas into the car. But if you MUST eq the speaker, then so must you TUNE your car...


Actually, your analogy isn't valid. That assumes the car you bought is defective, an assertion I never made about the speakers. The proper analogy would be you buy a car that works - nothing more, nothing less - but it isn't being used to its full potential. But then you get the PCM tuned and now it's running like a champ. Same with EQ; speakers work out of the box, obviously, but they will never be up to their full potential unless you tune the output. You can virtually guarantee that the negative comments you're hearing about the speakers would not exist had they been tune properly.
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post #1389 of 1814 Old 12-10-2014, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by NWCgrad View Post
I cannot wait to hear them in your space while the sound of Dave's in Andrew's is somewhat fresh. One potential item that is very hard to address in a G2G is position of the speaker. I tinkered with my speakers for months before I dialed them just as I like (toe in, distance from back/side walls, etc.). Sometimes a very minor change drastically changes the way the speakers interact with the room, making them sound either better or worse. Sometimes what sound better at first drives me nuts after a few days of steady listening.

Yep, I am bored at work today....
I was just thinking that before reading your post, it will be interesting to see what you think of them in my room. Tim ( @stitch1 - remember he was there when you were he sold me the Onkyo 818 AVR) was over again last night and I think he loves the 215's as much as I do.

We did some blind testing between FLAC and 320. Before we went blind we both SWORE the FLAC songs sound better. Then we went to blind and couldn't tell the difference. I can't emphasize how confident I was that I was going to be able to tell the difference going blind. I would have bet money. Lots of money. I would have lost.

( @beastaudio we were comparing Tidal with Google Play so looks like I'm done with Tidal. Plus I love how you can immediately click on a music video for each song that is playing. The whole interface is just awesome with Google Play, I'm moving from Spotify)

Sorry for the OT guys.
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post #1390 of 1814 Old 12-10-2014, 09:35 AM
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The one thing I'm kind of curious about is if anyone has tried any other monitors in that price range. I'll admit that I haven't heard the JBL's but some of the best speakers I've ever heard were a full 5.1 Genelec in a studio, of course those are 10x plus the cost of the JBL's haha. The second best pair I've heard were the Klein+Hummel in the $5000 price range. A friend has a pair and I'm always in love when I hear them. Of course he produced strictly electronic music so I haven't been able to listen to anything else on them but I've always wished I could afford a pair. They are just beautiful at reproducing music IMO. That being said, they are more nearfield/midfield monitors so may not be applicable to home theater use although I'd love to try

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post #1391 of 1814 Old 12-10-2014, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

The default 'curve', whatever Audyssey/MCACC/etc would set it for. IMHO, that would be a level playing field and extract the best from all the speakers. It would also be how pretty much everyone else would use them anyway. I think that would have eliminated a lot of the "sounded off" and "can't put my finger on it" comments. No EQ = poor integration.
Audyssey? MCACC? That is awful
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post #1392 of 1814 Old 12-10-2014, 09:43 AM
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Actually, your analogy isn't valid. That assumes the car you bought is defective, an assertion I never made about the speakers. The proper analogy would be you buy a car that works - nothing more, nothing less - but it isn't being used to its full potential. But then you get the PCM tuned and now it's running like a champ. Same with EQ; speakers work out of the box, obviously, but they will never be up to their full potential unless you tune the output. You can virtually guarantee that the negative comments you're hearing about the speakers would not exist had they been tune properly.
BTW: Last I checked, my car came with complete user manual that tells me exactly when to change the oil..

And yes, you're right that you can bring out the best in a speaker as in bringing out the best of your car's performance.. but that's not what i was talking about at all..

If you bought a toyota, it's because you liked it out of the box.. 99 percent of people will not mess with it..

If you bought a speaker and it REQUIRES you fine tune it before you're happy with it, then there's something wrong...

Anyways, I am done trying to explain the same thing as you're not understanding what I am saying...
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post #1393 of 1814 Old 12-10-2014, 09:54 AM
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One of the things I noticed was the fluctuations in the tracks...some were probably 10db lower or higher as well...so we were raising or lowering volume accordingly. Maybe it was these transitions to the next track being higher in levels and someone may have not lowered back the volume. Perhaps Dynamic Volume could be used in these instances...but I don't know if this tool would throw off how we perceive the performance of a speaker dramatically.

I totally agree with the logic behind the raw approach vs EQing, so maybe the volume and the variations in tracks effected my listening...who knows...but it's more of an excuse to have another gtg to hear them again and hang out with everyone for a great time
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post #1394 of 1814 Old 12-10-2014, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
I agree that there shouldn't be any EQ, especially for the highs. I don't EQ mine and love the way they sound but who knows, maybe I'm going deaf....

With the 212's sometimes on metal/hard rock that seemed lifeless I would bump up the EQ from 8-20 khz and to liven up the sound but I don't do anything with the 215s.

I think if you didn't like the 215's with no EQ you just didn't like them period. I think people are trying to be nice when they say the 215's should have been eq'd and I understand that but no worries, I don't think any of us with 215's are going to be offended.
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post #1395 of 1814 Old 12-10-2014, 09:57 AM
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I think this comes down to fundamental differences in our thoughts of how speakers should be used. I come down on the side with CoolGeek at this point.

And to further the car analogy, I added anti-sway bars and Z-rated tires to my car to make it handle better than stock but I could have lived with it stock. So I guess that would be equivalent to a little EQ to make the car even better but not necessarily needing to do it to fix a deficiency.

After reading what I wrote it sounds like we're talking semantics and it comes down to EQ for improvements, but not to "fix" a speaker. At least that's how I think of it.
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The 215 would have sounded better with some EQ, and also a few clocks lower in volume. At that volume I found them harsh - and perhaps lower I would not.
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post #1397 of 1814 Old 12-10-2014, 10:03 AM
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post #1398 of 1814 Old 12-10-2014, 10:03 AM
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I do eq a little bit with the Denon 4520 graphic eq and like carp I use the inuke dsp for the bass and a 20hz HPF. As I said anybody local hit me up if you want to hear them again.

Yep this the way Jeff did it at Axpona and they were well received. However at RMAF I believe they were EQ'd by DD running Jriver some of the reviews were very good. If I was not sharing the 215's for home theater, I would run them on a simple preamp.

I would be willing to bring the 215's again. If you guys want to do something at asoofi's, I will get them there, unless there is someone closer and willing. I would just need like a month notice now that I have to work again I work a half day on Saturday, so I need to get coverage. I would run the 215's as rhed said above> Just straight up Player>Amp>speaker..
That's awesome Dave...very nice of you to offer. I think you're one the only 215 owners within 3 hours of DC. Some reminded me at the gtg that the 215 CD is the same as the 212, and I could tell there was a difference, likely because of the wood horn being one of the factors. Would be great to hear both side by side.
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post #1399 of 1814 Old 12-10-2014, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
I think this comes down to fundamental differences in our thoughts of how speakers should be used. I come down on the side with CoolGeek at this point.

And to further the car analogy, I added anti-sway bars and Z-rated tires to my car to make it handle better than stock but I could have lived with it stock. So I guess that would be equivalent to a little EQ to make the car even better but not necessarily needing to do it to fix a deficiency.

After reading what I wrote it sounds like we're talking semantics and it comes down to EQ for improvements, but not to "fix" a speaker. At least that's how I think of it.
Dgage, it's like you took the words right out of my mouth..

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post #1400 of 1814 Old 12-10-2014, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
The 215 would have sounded better with some EQ, and also a few clocks lower in volume. At that volume I found them harsh - and perhaps lower I would not.
I have found that every speaker I've ever owned (or heard) starts sounding harsh around -10 or so.

So, what I have always done is the higher the volume goes the more I turn up the bass and any harshness goes away. To my ears it sounds right this way, the higher the volume the hotter the bass should be compared to everything else.

This is backwards from how our ears are supposed to work and how dynamic EQ works and those graphs that show the opposite of what I'm saying.... so I'm fully aware that there is something wrong with me.
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post #1401 of 1814 Old 12-10-2014, 10:11 AM
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The 215 would have sounded better with some EQ, and also a few clocks lower in volume. At that volume I found them harsh - and perhaps lower I would not.
In this discussion about EQ to improve or EQ to fix, this frankly sounds like an issue to be fixed. Many JTR owners mention that they love their speakers because "traditional" speakers compress and don't sound good when driven. If a speaker is harsh or fatiguing when driven hard, that sounds like a deficiency in my opinion.

I'll say this, I didn't really care for the upper end of the 215 when I heard them at Coach's but I didn't find them to be harsh, more veiled really. And this was even when standing right in front of the speaker a few feet to take "some" of the room out. The more I've read about people's thoguhts on the 215s, I really have to wonder if there was some EQing on somewhere.

Then again @COACH2369 is a light weight on the volume and we likely didn't approach the levels you guys were playing at.
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post #1402 of 1814 Old 12-10-2014, 10:15 AM
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The best part of these GTG's for me is the Demo Tracks (Jan and Dec of 2014) . Like Archaea this weekend, I've got them playing on repeat right now on my little Monitor Audio 5.1 in the family room (home office) and I love the sound and mix. Nice work Ben/Adam and all who contributed.
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post #1403 of 1814 Old 12-10-2014, 10:19 AM
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I am absolutely positive that with proper EQ, the proper room, and the proper amplifier the 215 would sound identical to the M2.

There. If we all just agree can we not have another 10 pages explaining how the 215's were terribly disadvantaged in the comparison?

Edit: Oh, yeah, there also was definitely EQ on those 215's from the undefeatable DSP on those Crown amps. So let's just move on and consider the whole GTG a wash aside from the pleasure of getting to hang out and listen to Andrews absolutely kicking system.

Last edited by Gooddoc; 12-10-2014 at 10:23 AM.
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post #1404 of 1814 Old 12-10-2014, 10:20 AM
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In this discussion about EQ to improve or EQ to fix, this frankly sounds like an issue to be fixed. Many JTR owners mention that they love their speakers because "traditional" speakers compress and don't sound good when driven. If a speaker is harsh or fatiguing when driven hard, that sounds like a deficiency in my opinion.

I'll say this, I didn't really care for the upper end of the 215 when I heard them at Coach's but I didn't find them to be harsh, more veiled really. And this was even when standing right in front of the speaker a few feet to take "some" of the room out. The more I've read about people's thoguhts on the 215s, I really have to wonder if there was some EQing on somewhere.

Then again @COACH2369 is a light weight on the volume and we likely didn't approach the levels you guys were playing at.
We did not listen loud, it was at -10 and -5 with a couple of cranks in between but nothing crazy.
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post #1405 of 1814 Old 12-10-2014, 10:23 AM
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How do we do EQ with a blind test?

(just an objective question of logistics as I would think the folks bringing the speakers would want to be a participant of the blind test)
I think flat/raw is the best option as you and others have suggested. And keep all files identical in quality/format to minimize variances...and shorten listening by half possibly. Also, documentation to rate a set of qualities per songs we hear, so results are quantified and measured to some degree. Documenting also forces us to be more active in the listening, so may be helpful.

For example...rate 1-5...
Song
-Dynamics
-Clarity
-Accuracy
-Warmness
-And/Or other factors to rate based on a general consensus. And other notes to help summarize overall impressions.

I think this way we could provide more accurate feedback and even minimize variances by track...especially me...I wish I could cite specific details but I can't rely on memory 100%...but getting close would be good if having a rating sheet helps.
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post #1406 of 1814 Old 12-10-2014, 10:24 AM
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That's awesome Dave...very nice of you to offer. I think you're one the only 215 owners within 3 hours of DC. Some reminded me at the gtg that the 215 CD is the same as the 212, and I could tell there was a difference, likely because of the wood horn being one of the factors. Would be great to hear both side by side.
I have not done that yet, but I could as I still have the 212's. Anybody that wants to do a side by side, we could do that to.

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post #1407 of 1814 Old 12-10-2014, 10:26 AM
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I have not done that yet, but I could as I still have the 212's. Anybody that wants to do a side by side, we could do that to.
I've got mine, so you wouldn't have to lug the 212 down as well.
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post #1408 of 1814 Old 12-10-2014, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
I am absolutely positive that with proper EQ, the proper room, and the proper amplifier the 215 would sound identical to the M2.
I disagree.

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There. If we all just agree can we not have another 10 pages explaining how the 215's were terribly disadvantaged in the comparison?
I agree.

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Edit: Oh, yeah, there also was definitely EQ on those 215's from the undefeatable DSP on those Crown amps. So let's just move on and consider the whole GTG a wash aside from the pleasure of getting to hang out and listen to Andrews absolutely kicking system.
Didn't realize the 215s were EQd. That explains the majority of comments that were fundamentally opposed to how I felt the 215s were sans EQ. So I'd basically say the true 215s weren't heard and any comments about them good or bad should be stricken from the record, err taken with a huge grain of salt.
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post #1409 of 1814 Old 12-10-2014, 10:40 AM
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How long before someone suggests a redo GTG??
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post #1410 of 1814 Old 12-10-2014, 10:46 AM
 
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In this discussion about EQ to improve or EQ to fix, this frankly sounds like an issue to be fixed. Many JTR owners mention that they love their speakers because "traditional" speakers compress and don't sound good when driven. If a speaker is harsh or fatiguing when driven hard, that sounds like a deficiency in my opinion.

I'll say this, I didn't really care for the upper end of the 215 when I heard them at Coach's but I didn't find them to be harsh, more veiled really. And this was even when standing right in front of the speaker a few feet to take "some" of the room out. The more I've read about people's thoguhts on the 215s, I really have to wonder if there was some EQing on somewhere.

Then again @COACH2369 is a light weight on the volume and we likely didn't approach the levels you guys were playing at.
I think you are underestimating how loud these animals played them..

They are utter and complete savages with a total abandon for their hearing.

Like I said, I think if the volume was a bit lower they might have sounded different. Once you get up around 100db I find most upper midrange and treble to be harsh, there is really a limit to how loud you should play upper midrange and treble as nothing really sound all that great that loud, but lower it a few clicks it comes back to sounding better.

The M2 never really seemed to get as loud as the JTR was to me. I think at some point the JTR was like 100db (constant) and left there for a few songs. I never remember the M2 getting that loud.

But I did like the Fusion 15 upper end in the sweet spot up stairs, it was better than the JTR, but I was also in the choice seat. It was pretty loud too. Then Andrew cranked the living chit out of them and everyone ran for their lives...

For the next GTG I'd like to bring my active TD15/SEOS15" DIY and compare them to a well known speaker like the JTR, I'd like to do that. My house is too small for a GTG, and I have a total remodel starting up (including dedicated 36x25 theater!) so my place is probably not the best choice for next year. But my parents place would be ideal if we wanted to do something outdoors, they have a huge patio, plenty of outdoor 20amp service, outdoor grill, nice yard, and no worry about neighbors and sound complaints. Everyone thinks it's like a resort, multiple beer fridges outdoors, even a frozen margarita and daquiri machine. If you animals want to do a late spring GTG and don't mind being outdoors, it could be epic. No worry about room problems outside, plenty space for everyone get a decent sweet spot seat, and much easier to do it blind with some AT cloth.
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