Dolby Atmos upward-firing module speakers - Page 41 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1201 of 3156 Old 03-21-2016, 06:16 PM
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Think water hose sprayed onto concrete. It splatters in a wide pattern but also continues forward.

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post #1202 of 3156 Old 03-21-2016, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasmus Börjesson View Post
If youre going with the bookshelf-atmos-setup i would try a speaker with a concentric driver? Standard bookshelfspeakers usually distributes the sound pretty good in the room and this also happens when soundwaves hit the cieling in a Atmos-module setup? So the cieling would distribute a already distributed source? That cant be good. Or maybe im just drunk.

Take fireworks for an example. Compact projectile at the beginning and when it hits the sky (cieling) it explodes and the sound is distributed all over the room/sky? I think thats how this Atmos-upfiring method is intended to work. Or maybe im just drunk.
I think ideally it's supposed to disperse and rain down to fill the listening position.

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post #1203 of 3156 Old 03-22-2016, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasmus Börjesson View Post
Seems like anything is possible with Atmos modules haha. Some get great sound and atmos effect with the little onkyos. Some does not get any effect with the Kefs. Many claims that atmos modules should not be crossed below 150 hz. Some get good results with 80-120 hz. Many claims the modules need to have some foam to control dispertion. The more expensive models have no foam. Some people says you should not even consider atmos in a small room and if you cant use 4 in cieling speakers. Yet some people get good results with just 2 atmos modules in 5.1.2 conf.
Once I have my new Anthem 1120 and 2 KEF-R50 speakers setup on April 1st, I'll let you know if I truly hear the atmos sound effect, with my 7.1.2 system.

With the monies I'm forking out for this upgrade, it better sound better than my current 7.1 system powered by my Onkyo TX-SR805.

Since my wife is totally against this upgrade, I'm counting on my new system to pull through for me.

I'm sure my 30 year old Eelectus parrot, Pepper will enjoy the added sound effects for sure.
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post #1204 of 3156 Old 03-23-2016, 07:24 AM
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FOR THOSE USING 5.1.2

I have "decent" Atmos overhead effect, but I am wondering if maybe I expecting too much from my speaker configuration.

With 5.1.2 (and the .2 is up firing), has anyone been able to get a true over your head effect? I get overhead, but sounds forward of my MLP. Moving around the room (forward, back, etc) does not improve this. Current speaker angle is about 35 degrees. I have tried baffling the front side of the speaker with acoustic foam to kill direct sound.

I am wondering if the only way to get complete over my head effect, will require rear atmos speakers? Maybe IC is the better route?

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post #1205 of 3156 Old 03-23-2016, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zigzag666 View Post
FOR THOSE USING 5.1.2

I have "decent" Atmos overhead effect, but I am wondering if maybe I expecting too much from my speaker configuration.

With 5.1.2 (and the .2 is up firing), has anyone been able to get a true over your head effect? I get overhead, but sounds forward of my MLP. Moving around the room (forward, back, etc) does not improve this. Current speaker angle is about 35 degrees. I have tried baffling the front side of the speaker with acoustic foam to kill direct sound.

I am wondering if the only way to get complete over my head effect, will require rear atmos speakers? Maybe IC is the better route?

To me, it sounds like you might in fact be expecting too much. In a 5.1.2, my experience has been that I experience quite a bit above my head but always a bit forward looking up at a 45 degree angle from my MLP basically. When things shift to behind me, my surround speakers pick up the sound. Since my rear speakers are Mirage Omipolar, and they are placed about 12" above my ears at MLP, they do a good job of carrying the effect around me rearward but not really overhead (from front to back). I think the only way to achieve what it sounds like you might be looking for is to move to a 5.1.4 where you have rear AE speakers to pick up the sound as it moves overhead towards your rear. My Atmos effects definitely stop above and in front. In any event, I'm thrilled with the added sound experience and it will have to do to hold me over until an AVR that is capable of allowing me to move to a .4 AE system becomes more reasonably priced, LOL.
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post #1206 of 3156 Old 03-23-2016, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by talon9 View Post
To me, it sounds like you might in fact be expecting too much. In a 5.1.2, my experience has been that I experience quite a bit above my head but always a bit forward looking up at a 45 degree angle from my MLP basically. When things shift to behind me, my surround speakers pick up the sound. Since my rear speakers are Mirage Omipolar, and they are placed about 12" above my ears at MLP, they do a good job of carrying the effect around me rearward but not really overhead (from front to back). I think the only way to achieve what it sounds like you might be looking for is to move to a 5.1.4 where you have rear AE speakers to pick up the sound as it moves overhead towards your rear. My Atmos effects definitely stop above and in front. In any event, I'm thrilled with the added sound experience and it will have to do to hold me over until an AVR that is capable of allowing me to move to a .4 AE system becomes more reasonably priced, LOL.
This is exactly my experience initially going 7.2.2. It was a nice upgrade and increases the height of the front soundstage to high above, but just in front of you. Thinking about the geometry involved, it makes sense because of how far your front speakers are typically from your MLP. When I switched to 5.2.4, that's when the experience went from "cool" to "wow". It created the full bubble effect and many of the direct overhead effects were directed to the surround AE speakers (RP280FAs for me). No regrets here.
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post #1207 of 3156 Old 03-23-2016, 09:27 AM
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So now I'm really starting to wonder if 2 IC's would make a difference instead of the up firing, forward speakers?

Probably a question for another thread as this one is more up-firing oriented.

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post #1208 of 3156 Old 03-23-2016, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zigzag666 View Post
FOR THOSE USING 5.1.2



I have "decent" Atmos overhead effect, but I am wondering if maybe I expecting too much from my speaker configuration.



With 5.1.2 (and the .2 is up firing), has anyone been able to get a true over your head effect? I get overhead, but sounds forward of my MLP. Moving around the room (forward, back, etc) does not improve this. Current speaker angle is about 35 degrees. I have tried baffling the front side of the speaker with acoustic foam to kill direct sound.



I am wondering if the only way to get complete over my head effect, will require rear atmos speakers? Maybe IC is the better route?

As talon9 says it might be higher expectations than what you really get with only a .2 Atmos setup. I get a lot of overhead effects but in certain scenes you really do miss out on a lot of the action overhead without .4. Some of the demos on the Atmos demo disc almost require 4 speakers before you hear any effect at all. Other demos work wonderfully. Rain sounds like it's dropping on my roof and things echo off the ceiling nicely when appropriate. I hear birds and bugs from overhead in some demos as well. Though the effect would be much better if I had 4 speakers. Not only that but depending on the mix, not everything will sound like it's right above you. Sounds can seem to come from elsewhere in the room during an Atmos mix.

In some movies I notice the overhead effects quite a bit. One scene in Goosebumps comes to mind where an invisible boy drops on the car roof and you can hear the thump above you which is nice. Many other demos and movies may use it for extra added atmosphere rather than straight up overhead audio.

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post #1209 of 3156 Old 03-23-2016, 02:55 PM
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Anyone played the Atmos demo - Horizon in a 5.1.2 conf and got the jets to fly over yout head? I get that feeling with 5.1 but when i played it with the onkyo 410 it didnt work. Probably just the speakers, I get my Elac A4 tomorrow and will try again then
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post #1210 of 3156 Old 03-23-2016, 06:21 PM
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As requested, I wanted to post some initial thoughts on my ELAC A4 AE speakers. They arrived today and I dialed them in fairly quickly. Because a dedicated AE speaker is so task specific compared to what I was using (see earlier posts referencing my Bose 151 SE on a block of wood, LOL.) I had some concern that the effect would, well, change from what I had been experiencing and I was in fear I would be disappointed. I can now safely say that those fears were unwarranted. These speakers are quite competent in their designed function and combined with the nice match (both physically and audibly) to my ELAC front sound stage of B6 left and right and C5 center. The finish is an exact match to that on my other speakers (no real surprise here). They are slightly smaller than the tops of my B6's and suspect that they are a closer fit on top of the B5's.

They ship well protected (surrounded in a polystyrene shell) inside the box. In an interesting twist from my other Amazon speaker deliveries, the smaller sized box for the A4's prompted an outer carton this time.

As far as I can estimate with an angle finder, the default speaker angle in the package is at 13 degrees (I'll go with +/- 1 degree). From my prior experience in setting up the AE speakers, I didn't even bother attempting at that shallow of an angle. In order to get a direct reflection to my listening position, I need to be at about 38 degrees. Using some door stop wedges and my trusty block of wood, I've raised them up to 35 degrees (temporarily until I can make a better support). The first thing to report is that it has no bearing on localization or direct, on axis sound with these speakers in my setup.

At this point, I've run through all of my demo material and I'm happy to report that I'm back to my 85%, maybe as high now as a 90% solution. The front height effects are excellent. Perhaps even slightly improved over what I was using (which turns out were quite good). This does make me realize that this effect can be achieved in a number of different ways. If one can find a good solution that is aesthetically pleasing as well as sounding good, I'm not firmly in the camp that one needs a dedicated module. Perhaps as one ventures in to .4 or greater Atmos configurations this may become more important but since I'm only at 5.1.2, I'm not there yet. I now have a solution that looks pretty good and to me, sounds very good. The added atmosphere to our movie experience has been well worth the investment. Thanks for reading.

Paul
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post #1211 of 3156 Old 03-23-2016, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by talon9 View Post
As requested, I wanted to post some initial thoughts on my ELAC A4 AE speakers. They arrived today and I dialed them in fairly quickly. Because a dedicated AE speaker is so task specific compared to what I was using (see earlier posts referencing my Bose 151 SE on a block of wood, LOL.) I had some concern that the effect would, well, change from what I had been experiencing and I was in fear I would be disappointed. I can now safely say that those fears were unwarranted. These speakers are quite competent in their designed function and combined with the nice match (both physically and audibly) to my ELAC front sound stage of B6 left and right and C5 center. The finish is an exact match to that on my other speakers (no real surprise here). They are slightly smaller than the tops of my B6's and suspect that they are a closer fit on top of the B5's.

They ship well protected (surrounded in a polystyrene shell) inside the box. In an interesting twist from my other Amazon speaker deliveries, the smaller sized box for the A4's prompted an outer carton this time.

As far as I can estimate with an angle finder, the default speaker angle in the package is at 13 degrees (I'll go with +/- 1 degree). From my prior experience in setting up the AE speakers, I didn't even bother attempting at that shallow of an angle. In order to get a direct reflection to my listening position, I need to be at about 38 degrees. Using some door stop wedges and my trusty block of wood, I've raised them up to 35 degrees (temporarily until I can make a better support). The first thing to report is that it has no bearing on localization or direct, on axis sound with these speakers in my setup.

At this point, I've run through all of my demo material and I'm happy to report that I'm back to my 85%, maybe as high now as a 90% solution. The front height effects are excellent. Perhaps even slightly improved over what I was using (which turns out were quite good). This does make me realize that this effect can be achieved in a number of different ways. If one can find a good solution that is aesthetically pleasing as well as sounding good, I'm not firmly in the camp that one needs a dedicated module. Perhaps as one ventures in to .4 or greater Atmos configurations this may become more important but since I'm only at 5.1.2, I'm not there yet. I now have a solution that looks pretty good and to me, sounds very good. The added atmosphere to our movie experience has been well worth the investment. Thanks for reading.

Paul
Thanks for the review! I will try to post a review on friday, maybe som firts impressions tomorrow also.

Could you post some close up pictures on the elac a4? They look rather black on your picture, which is good foor me since they would at least match my Yamaha NS-555 fronts, but they are grey on internet photos?

Glad to hear that you got good results : )
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post #1212 of 3156 Old 03-23-2016, 07:18 PM
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Thanks for the review! I will try to post a review on friday, maybe som firts impressions tomorrow also.

Could you post some close up pictures on the elac a4? They look rather black on your picture, which is good foor me since they would at least match my Yamaha NS-555 fronts, but they are grey on internet photos?

Glad to hear that you got good results : )
Here is a closer photo.
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post #1213 of 3156 Old 03-23-2016, 07:49 PM
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Here is a closer photo.
They look really nice, much better than the amazon photo.

Do you have a close upp on the angle of the speaker? And how far away is your MLP?
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post #1214 of 3156 Old 03-24-2016, 06:18 AM
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They look really nice, much better than the amazon photo.

Do you have a close upp on the angle of the speaker? And how far away is your MLP?
Photo attached until I can make a better base to support the speaker at the angle I need.

The MLP is 9 feet away and my ceilings are 7.5 feet.
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Talon9,

would you say the sound effect is more overhead with the Elac than it was with the Bose? If so, are we talking minor change or huge change?

I have considered ordering the Elac and the SVS (when they become available), but if the improvement is very minor using DAE modules, I will rethink my strategy.

J

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post #1216 of 3156 Old 03-24-2016, 07:16 AM
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Any news on a release for the PSB imagine XA's?
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post #1217 of 3156 Old 03-24-2016, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zigzag666 View Post
Talon9,

would you say the sound effect is more overhead with the Elac than it was with the Bose? If so, are we talking minor change or huge change?

I have considered ordering the Elac and the SVS (when they become available), but if the improvement is very minor using DAE modules, I will rethink my strategy.

J

I'll need a bit more time with them to make that final determination. The improvements that I can note so far are better sound match to the front sound stage and more pronounced overhead effects without sounding localized. The Bose speakers that I was using had 3 x 2.5" speakers in a horizontal array and crossed over at 250Hz. The ELAC A4's are concentric drivers and more focused. Since they are larger drivers, they cross over at 200 Hz. They are rated for 180 but Audyssey only gives me 150 or 200. This gets a better, tighter if you will, sound to the ceiling. If I raised up the levels on the Bose speakers it would begin to separate from the front sound stage. I actually have the A4's level turned down a couple of points from where Audyssey had set the Bose originally. These seem to be more focused and I was worried about this because the Bose dispersed so much, I was thinking that the tighter sound field presented by the ELAC's might end up hurting the effect of the bubble. Not that my setup would have met with any of Dolby's guidelines, it was working.


The ELAC's are working as well and will end up being much more pleasing to the eyes once I lose the block of wood. I can't say that I would ever consider spending hundreds or in some cases, thousands on AE speakers based on my results. I'd really have to have some one show me the benefits of a $1,200 Atmos speaker based on my experience. A 500% incresase in price for a 3 to 5% improvement in effect just doesn't pass my value test. I think that balance of cost vs. aesthetics vs benefit is really in play here. Of course, room acoustics and dimensions along with MLP all come in to play. The overhead sound is enjoyable and I would miss it now that I have experienced it. Since it is only ambience added to the soundtrack in my room (meaning I'm not adding these to be playing DVD audio reflected off the ceiling, there just must be a point of diminishing return on the amount of money that one spends to get the effect. For me, that money would be much better spent on an AVR that will get me to a .4 configuration from my current .2. Now that would be a worthwhile upgrade.
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post #1218 of 3156 Old 03-24-2016, 09:39 AM
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Photo attached until I can make a better base to support the speaker at the angle I need.

The MLP is 9 feet away and my ceilings are 7.5 feet.
Just unpacked my Elac A4 but i dont have time to plug them in right now : ( anyway here is a pic compared to the Onkyo 410.
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post #1219 of 3156 Old 03-24-2016, 11:44 AM
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Hmm not sure about this poker chips setup, but at least it is easy to increase angle haha...
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post #1220 of 3156 Old 03-24-2016, 01:31 PM
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Just finished installing a Denon X3200W & adding Martin Logan Motion AFX ATMOS speakers (5.1.2). Good overhead sound and sound is richer in general. The wife is happy and has given approval for my "enhancement". The AFXs are mounted above ear level, half way up a 10' wall and within 3' of the ML electrostatic RF/LF speakers and on small floating shelves either side of 75" UHD TV.

We were watching Bosch, Season 2, Eps. 6, "Heart Attack", 18 minutes in when police helicopters were overhead and flew from in front of us to behind us. We both looked at each other, smiled and did a rewind to hear it again. So, even simulated ATMOS (DSU) is awesome.

Big thanks to J.D. for the advice and quick delivery.
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post #1221 of 3156 Old 03-24-2016, 01:44 PM
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Just finished installing a Denon X3200W & adding Martin Logan Motion AFX ATMOS speakers (5.1.2). Good overhead sound and sound is richer in general. The wife is happy and has given approval for my "enhancement". The AFXs are mounted above ear level, half way up a 10' wall and within 3' of the ML electrostatic RF/LF speakers and on small floating shelves either side of 75" UHD TV.

We were watching Bosch, Season 2, Eps. 6, "Heart Attack", 18 minutes in when police helicopters were overhead and flew from in front of us to behind us. We both looked at each other, smiled and did a rewind to hear it again. So, even simulated ATMOS (DSU) is awesome.

Big thanks to J.D. for the advice and quick delivery.

I love the floating shelf idea for the AE speakers. Nicely done.


I'm with you completely on the benefits and enjoyment. Everyone is so quick to mention that there isn't a lot of available native ATMOS content, I love the DSU enhancement just as much.
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post #1222 of 3156 Old 03-25-2016, 12:39 AM
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Some first impression with Elac A4 and Atmos. I havnt re-calibrated
the system yet but i will do that today.

Well, it does not sound very good. Almost every Atmos demo i played through my HTPC sounds better in 5.1 TrueHD. The surrounds (NS-333) does a great job to deliver sound right above me evem with directional sound effekts like airplanes and so on. The AE-speakers does not, at least for now. It feels like i can localize them to easy sometimes and in some demos they kind of ruin the whole soundstage. For example when the thunder strikes in "Amaze" the sound does not appear above me like it do in TrueHD, and it sounds a bit thin and wierd to.

My cieling is 237 cm and I have aprox 3,40 m the the L&R.

(Yes that is a shoe under the speakers hhah)
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post #1223 of 3156 Old 03-25-2016, 05:41 AM
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Dolby Atmos upward-firing module speakers

I think you will have to play with the angles more to get it right. Since you are sitting along the wall with speakers in close proximity it might be difficult if not impossible for the Atmos enabled system to provide enough sound to you for any real effect. It is possible they will be overpowered by the surrounds and at best you just get a larger soundstage. I could be wrong and calibrating might help.

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post #1224 of 3156 Old 03-25-2016, 06:04 AM
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Can you tell us your setup? (5.x.2, 7.x.
Also, how far is MLP from ML's and what is the distance from MLP to rears?

Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by diverdra View Post
Just finished installing a Denon X3200W & adding Martin Logan Motion AFX ATMOS speakers (5.1.2). Good overhead sound and sound is richer in general. The wife is happy and has given approval for my "enhancement". The AFXs are mounted above ear level, half way up a 10' wall and within 3' of the ML electrostatic RF/LF speakers and on small floating shelves either side of 75" UHD TV.

We were watching Bosch, Season 2, Eps. 6, "Heart Attack", 18 minutes in when police helicopters were overhead and flew from in front of us to behind us. We both looked at each other, smiled and did a rewind to hear it again. So, even simulated ATMOS (DSU) is awesome.

Big thanks to J.D. for the advice and quick delivery.

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post #1225 of 3156 Old 03-25-2016, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zigzag666 View Post
Can you tell us your setup? (5.x.2, 7.x.
Also, how far is MLP from ML's and what is the distance from MLP to rears?

Thanks
Zigzag, here are the measurements for my 5.1.2 setup:

At MLP, ears are 38" above floor
MLP to ATMOS speakers = 14'
MLP to Surround L/R speakers = 6.5' & above MLP firing down
ATMOS speakers are 53" above floor
ATMOS speakers are 7' apart and toed in towards MLP
Ceiling is 10'

Hope this answers your question.

Dan
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post #1226 of 3156 Old 03-25-2016, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrdredd View Post
I think you will have to play with the angles more to get it right. Since you are sitting along the wall with speakers in close proximity it might be difficult if not impossible for the Atmos enabled system to provide enough sound to you for any real effect. It is possible they will be overpowered by the surrounds and at best you just get a larger soundstage. I could be wrong and calibrating might help.
Well, something is wrong with my Onkyo 646 since the bass is cut of when I use AccuEQ. When i turn it off the bass is back. And it set my distance to the L Front and R Height to 0,3 m haha. Calibrated twice same results. It also set my Elacs to 150 hz which is 30 hz above lowest rated freq on the speaker.

So no the sound did not improve after calibration haha. I havnt tried any movies yet but i figure if you cant even get the Atmos demos to work then it wont work with movies?
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post #1227 of 3156 Old 03-25-2016, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasmus Börjesson View Post
Well, something is wrong with my Onkyo 646 since the bass is cut of when I use AccuEQ. When i turn it off the bass is back. And it set my distance to the L Front and R Height to 0,3 m haha. Calibrated twice same results. It also set my Elacs to 150 hz which is 30 hz above lowest rated freq on the speaker.

So no the sound did not improve after calibration haha. I havnt tried any movies yet but i figure if you cant even get the Atmos demos to work then it wont work with movies?
Get an AVR with Audyssey instead...

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post #1228 of 3156 Old 03-25-2016, 09:15 AM
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Dolby Atmos upward-firing module speakers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasmus Börjesson View Post
Well, something is wrong with my Onkyo 646 since the bass is cut of when I use AccuEQ. When i turn it off the bass is back. And it set my distance to the L Front and R Height to 0,3 m haha. Calibrated twice same results. It also set my Elacs to 150 hz which is 30 hz above lowest rated freq on the speaker.



So no the sound did not improve after calibration haha. I havnt tried any movies yet but i figure if you cant even get the Atmos demos to work then it wont work with movies?

When I run audyssey it sets my speakers to the frequency they begin to roll off so I had to adjust them manually. I don't know about the other settings it gave you after calibration.

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Last edited by cmdrdredd; 03-25-2016 at 09:18 AM.
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post #1229 of 3156 Old 03-25-2016, 09:45 AM
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I suggest you keep the 150Hz HP settings. As you lower it the chance of breakage goes up.

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post #1230 of 3156 Old 03-25-2016, 10:14 AM
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I suggest you keep the 150Hz HP settings. As you lower it the chance of breakage goes up.

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The elac Atmos speakers are rated for 180hz on the low end. You might not want them at 150hz to protect them.

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