JBL 705i/708i (7 Series Master Reference Monitors) & 725G/728G (subwoofers): Jan 2015 - Page 104 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3091 of 3119 Old 12-28-2019, 04:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Kain View Post
Thanks.

While I know this won't make a difference for Ultra HD Blu-ray movies (as they are recorded at 48 kHz), what about high-res music that is recorded at 96 kHz or higher?
You will lose information obviously as downsampling is lossy by definition. Is higher than 24 kHz information important? I don't think so, way too high, but that is up to you to decide.
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post #3092 of 3119 Old 12-28-2019, 04:55 AM
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Originally Posted by aats View Post
You will lose information obviously as downsampling is lossy by definition. Is higher than 24 kHz information important? I don't think so, way too high, but that is up to you to decide.
Thanks.

Anything on this: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...l#post59012590
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post #3093 of 3119 Old 12-28-2019, 05:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Kain View Post
No, I don't know anything about that.
But before someone from JBL answered that difference between DA and N is connectivity and I really doubt they developed different DSP for DA, it's cheaper to reuse existing already developed stuff, so its safe to assume they are the same.
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post #3094 of 3119 Old 01-01-2020, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
Not sure what they would do different. I have some info to post re:your question, just need time to edit it. Busy weekend, will probably get to it Monday.
Any update regarding the info on the compression drivers?
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post #3095 of 3119 Old 01-01-2020, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Kain View Post
Any update regarding the info on the compression drivers?
Sorry it has taken so long, we have all been busy with the holidays, end of year business etc. Our rep was kind enough to post the question to Harman and had this to say:

We do not have the data on this consumer driver and neither does Harman Professional. But the short answer is: the drivers are designed for the speakers they were intended to be used in.

Even though one might assume that the newer driver is better, it may not necessarily be the case. When a manufacturer builds or buys (JBL builds) a transducer or HF compression driver, they build them for the application, line of products and market for which they are to be used. That means requirements in the recording studio or folly stage can be different than the home theater or home listening market. For instance, form factor will play a roll from one speaker line to another, along with color, hanging options, connectors, etc. The truest statement would be the 2409H was designed to be used in the 700 Series professional market place and the new 2410-H2 was designed for the JBL consumer marketplace in the HDI lineup of products. They are both the right HF driver for the job they are designed to do.

We do not have the specs on each driver and thus can not define one as better. By looking at the speakers you can see the waveguides look alike, but one has ICW waveguides and the other HDI waveguides. Are they really different or is this a way to differentiate them in their markets? Is the new 2410-H2 that much different in specification than the 2409H? I can't tell you, but I can tell you they were built to meet the needs of maximizing the speaker functions within the models for which they were developed.

In the end, the difference is less specification and more fit and application. I asked my division if they had any information on the new driver and they said no.

Look at the marketing of each speaker line.

700 Series for the Professional Recording Market:

JBL Image Control Waveguide ensures accuracy and neutrality while providing a wide sweet spot with increased sonic detail. By enabling an acoustically seamless transition between the woofer and high-frequency transducer, the waveguide provides a detailed sound stage and accurate imaging across the entire frequency spectrum

The JBL 2409H high frequency compression driver incorporates an innovative low-mass annular diaphragm to deliver smooth response beyond 36 kHz, with extraordinary output and very low distortion.

JBL New Consumer HDI Line for the consumer home theater and listening environment.

HDI Series features “revolutionary” JBL compression driver technology and patented High-Definition Imaging (HDI) waveguides across its lineup.

…borrowed from JBL Professional’s D2 range of transducers. The lightweight, 1-inch annular-ring polymer diaphragm has a V-shaped geometry that is designed to reduce breakup modes, thus reducing distortion. As you would expect from JBL, the 2410H-2 compression driver promises high dynamic capability and a lack of power compression.

Are they that much different in what they talk about? Maybe not, but they are definitely different on form and function.

The D2 driver technology has been improved upon by reducing the number of parts, weight and was redesigned in the VTXA12 and VTXA8 touring speakers and the 700 Series speakers. The waveguides have been improved for specific marketplaces too, but mainly in the tour sound and live PA market. Both are Harman patent technologies that can be manipulated to fit the required application of the compression driver or waveguide designed for the speaker it is used in. In the A12 and A8, it is about meeting the requirements of the tour sound clients, in the 7 Series speakers it is about the professional recording market place, and in the HDI it is about the listening experience in home theater, multi-channel audio applications and stereo playback in the home. Sometimes Harman uses the same component in all markets and sometimes they do not. That is all driven by the design and ultimate use of the product within the marketplace for which it is design and intended to be used in.

Once there is more information regarding the drivers we might argue which one is better, but in reality, each driver being used is the best driver for the speaker it is in and for the market they are being used in. Better? Upgraded? I do not know and have not been able to find out. I will let you know if anyone tells me one way or the other, but for now I am going to say the 2409-H is a professional compression driver for the professional marketplace and the 2410-H2 is a consumer compression driver for the consumer market place. I'll let you know if my inquiries provide more information.

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post #3096 of 3119 Old 01-06-2020, 08:19 AM
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Don't get wrapped too far around the axle chasing measurements. Your ears and brain will do a phenomenal job of processing what looks like a mess in REW. You bought well measuring speakers and have decent room correction. Put the laptop away and enjoy your room. Chasing REW can be a futile experience. I spent days - literally days - moving absorption panels, pushing four subs to the front, to the back, to the sides over and over. I played the hokey-pokey dance with my speakers by doing "put the left toe in and the right right toe out then move them all about", etc etc. I would make a tweak in the MiniDSP, remeasure, wash and repeat over and over and over again. I saw what I perceived to be marked improvements in my graphs. I mean wow, look at those overlay differences!!!

I invited the wife and many others in for the BIG reveal demo of my two day acoustical-engineering excellence project to get the following feedback, "Ummmmmm, I don't mean to be rude, but I don't really hear a difference. What did you do again? Can we go now?"
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post #3097 of 3119 Old 01-06-2020, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Don't get wrapped too far around the axle chasing measurements. Your ears and brain will do a phenomenal job of processing what looks like a mess in REW. You bought well measuring speakers and have decent room correction. Put the laptop away and enjoy your room. Chasing REW can be a futile experience. I spent days - literally days - moving absorption panels, pushing four subs to the front, to the back, to the sides over and over. I played the hokey-pokey dance with my speakers by doing "put the left toe in and the right right toe out then move them all about", etc etc. I would make a tweak in the MiniDSP, remeasure, wash and repeat over and over and over again. I saw what I perceived to be marked improvements in my graphs. I mean wow, look at those overlay differences!!!

I invited the wife and many others in for the BIG reveal demo of my two day acoustical-engineering excellence project to get the following feedback, "Ummmmmm, I don't mean to be rude, but I don't really hear a difference. What did you do again? Can we go now?"
Great post! At my age (66), I have room correction and the Harman Target Room Curve built in!
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post #3098 of 3119 Old 01-07-2020, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Don't get wrapped too far around the axle chasing measurements. Your ears and brain will do a phenomenal job of processing what looks like a mess in REW. You bought well measuring speakers and have decent room correction. Put the laptop away and enjoy your room. Chasing REW can be a futile experience. I spent days - literally days - moving absorption panels, pushing four subs to the front, to the back, to the sides over and over. I played the hokey-pokey dance with my speakers by doing "put the left toe in and the right right toe out then move them all about", etc etc. I would make a tweak in the MiniDSP, remeasure, wash and repeat over and over and over again. I saw what I perceived to be marked improvements in my graphs. I mean wow, look at those overlay differences!!!

I invited the wife and many others in for the BIG reveal demo of my two day acoustical-engineering excellence project to get the following feedback, "Ummmmmm, I don't mean to be rude, but I don't really hear a difference. What did you do again? Can we go now?"
I respectfully disagree here.

If you know how acoustics in small room work and know what you are doing with a measurement rig and a DSP in the system, the results will be quite audible.

I do agree that graphs often look worse due to mics being able to measure things our brain filters out.

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post #3099 of 3119 Old 01-07-2020, 12:04 PM
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I respectfully disagree here.

If you know how acoustics in small room work and know what you are doing with a measurement rig and a DSP in the system, the results will be quite audible.

I do agree that graphs often look worse due to mics being able to measure things our brain filters out.

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I never meant to imply PEQ wasn't audible, and if I did then I apologize. The measurements he showed are post room correction, not first go raw measurements. Audyssey would have already pulled his peaks down correct? If one wishes to manually do it via PEQ vs an automated R/C the results are essentially the same or similar. He was worried about a few narrow dips post Audyssey which no PEQ is going to correct. Nulls require moving stuff. After cleaning up some narrow nulls in my room post RC by a lot of moving stuff, the results weren't audible even though the graph showed some improvements in REW. My post was intended to convey don't sweat the small stuff escpecially narrow dips.
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post #3100 of 3119 Old 01-11-2020, 04:05 AM
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Has anyone here checked with Harman if 708p can be operated with twitter on the bottom and woofer on the top?

Digigram VX882e - JBL 708i - JBL 708p
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post #3101 of 3119 Old 01-11-2020, 07:26 AM
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Has anyone here checked with Harman if 708p can be operated with twitter on the bottom and woofer on the top?
I responded to your post in the Synthesis thread as well.

Yes, I think you can. Reason being is that I have mine flipped to get the tweeter more at ear level.
They have worked perfectly this way for me.
I would challenge anyone on here that says you can't because I haven't had any issues or loss in performance.
Before I set them up, I sent an email to the dealer who then emailed his rep about doing it. The response was it would be okay.
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post #3102 of 3119 Old 01-11-2020, 07:50 AM
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I responded to your post in the Synthesis thread as well.

Yes, I think you can. Reason being is that I have mine flipped to get the tweeter more at ear level.
They have worked perfectly this way for me.
I would challenge anyone on here that says you can't because I haven't had any issues or loss in performance.
Before I set them up, I sent an email to the dealer who then emailed his rep about doing it. The response was it would be okay.
I was more concerned about amp/dsp heat and things like that if they are designed to be operated like that, sonic performance should be ok.
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post #3103 of 3119 Old 01-11-2020, 07:53 AM
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I was more concerned about amp/dsp heat and things like that if they are designed to be operated like that.
In regards to that, I can tell you this.
My 708p's are behind the screen.
The longest I have had them on and played them, nonstop, has been 5 hours.
I can access the right channel to turn it off manually, but the other two are on triggers.
The right channel never seems "hot" or even "warm"....it puts off a little bit of heat, but nothing that concerns me or is on the levels of some AVR's.

Maybe Rex or someone else with more knowledge can help you out there.
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post #3104 of 3119 Old 01-11-2020, 02:07 PM
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Class D amps run cool. I have some old Mackie powered speakers I use for my bedroom system. They get pretty warm because they are Class AB amps.
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post #3105 of 3119 Old 01-13-2020, 11:31 AM
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I'm sure this has been covered at some point, but my searching didn't yield the results I was looking for, sorry in advance.

I own a pair of JBL LSR2325P monitors for my home studio, I love they way they sound and would like to get similar (extremely likely a lot better) sound in my home theater I'm building. It has been in the planning stages for a long time now. I was originally planning on using LSR6332s but they seem to be discontinued but that led me to reading about the 7 series. Room will be 12'8" x 17'5"x 7'8". Due to the size (or lack of) I am forced to have the screen along the widest wall, not ideal but oh well.

Onto the question, I've read about the use of the Crown Amps or London BSS, but if I am running Audyssey on my preamp would that negate the need of the Audio Architect tuning files? Are the files really intended for use in a studio where you would be running audio direct from the audio interface and would need dsp of sorts, or are the files literally important enough that no matter what they are needed?

I don't mind buying the crown amps, I'm just concerned about the future of the theater. I am planning on 9.x.2 atmos, 708i as LCR and 705i as wides/sides/rears/heights. I will literally be building my room around the speakers (room within a room with "cubby holes" for all 11 channels essentially soffit mounting all the speakers). If the dsp tune files are required in this scenario, then the idea that if the amp goes out 10, 15, or 20 years from now and Harman/JBL/Crown no longer makes a product that supports the 7 series is kind of scaring me away from going this route. Any info would be appreciated.

Thanks!

-Sean
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post #3106 of 3119 Old 01-13-2020, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by 230-SEAN View Post
I'm sure this has been covered at some point, but my searching didn't yield the results I was looking for, sorry in advance.



I own a pair of JBL LSR2325P monitors for my home studio, I love they way they sound and would like to get similar (extremely likely a lot better) sound in my home theater I'm building. It has been in the planning stages for a long time now. I was originally planning on using LSR6332s but they seem to be discontinued but that led me to reading about the 7 series. Room will be 12'8" x 17'5"x 7'8". Due to the size (or lack of) I am forced to have the screen along the widest wall, not ideal but oh well.



Onto the question, I've read about the use of the Crown Amps or London BSS, but if I am running Audyssey on my preamp would that negate the need of the Audio Architect tuning files? Are the files really intended for use in a studio where you would be running audio direct from the audio interface and would need dsp of sorts, or are the files literally important enough that no matter what they are needed?



I don't mind buying the crown amps, I'm just concerned about the future of the theater. I am planning on 9.x.2 atmos, 708i as LCR and 705i as wides/sides/rears/heights. I will literally be building my room around the speakers (room within a room with "cubby holes" for all 11 channels essentially soffit mounting all the speakers). If the dsp tune files are required in this scenario, then the idea that if the amp goes out 10, 15, or 20 years from now and Harman/JBL/Crown no longer makes a product that supports the 7 series is kind of scaring me away from going this route. Any info would be appreciated.



Thanks!



-Sean
Tunings are necessary to get the best out of the speakers. There are -6db correction filters around 2khz in the tunings, so definately something which is audible.

The scenario you mention is not something I would worry about. If they stop making the amp, the required settings are available for other DSP's... Also in this exact thread

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post #3107 of 3119 Old 01-13-2020, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by 230-SEAN View Post

Onto the question, I've read about the use of the Crown Amps or London BSS, but if I am running Audyssey on my preamp would that negate the need of the Audio Architect tuning files? Are the files really intended for use in a studio where you would be running audio direct from the audio interface and would need dsp of sorts, or are the files literally important enough that no matter what they are needed? for the tuning files for the 705i/708i you have to use them if you are in a studio or HT or they will sound like regular speakers or maybe even worse. on the other hand after you load the files into your crown amp (itech or DCI/n) you can run any room EQ , Audyssey being one of them without issues. basically the files in your amp don't interfere with any room correction applied after in your processor or avr.

I don't mind buying the crown amps, I'm just concerned about the future of the theater. I am planning on 9.x.2 atmos, 708i as LCR and 705i as wides/sides/rears/heights. I will literally be building my room around the speakers (room within a room with "cubby holes" for all 11 channels essentially soffit mounting all the speakers). If the dsp tune files are required in this scenario, then the idea that if the amp goes out 10, 15, or 20 years from now and Harman/JBL/Crown no longer makes a product that supports the 7 series is kind of scaring me away from going this route. Any info would be appreciated. I think the crown amps will last a very long time, they are built like tanks. even if something happens Harman will be there to support for sure, as their customer service is second to none.

Thanks!

-Sean
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post #3108 of 3119 Old 01-14-2020, 08:26 PM
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Tunings are necessary to get the best out of the speakers. There are -6db correction filters around 2khz in the tunings, so definately something which is audible.

The scenario you mention is not something I would worry about. If they stop making the amp, the required settings are available for other DSP's... Also in this exact thread

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Thanks, I figured this had been discussed somewhere in this thread but the combination of words I was searching wasn't giving me what I was looking for. As far as the settings for other DSPs are concerned, I was thinking they were "hush hush" but it sounds like you're saying I could buy something like a minidsp and use that in the future if need be?

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Thanks for breaking down the responses for me.

Does anyone use the Intonato 24 or know much about it?

-Sean
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post #3109 of 3119 Old 01-17-2020, 05:10 PM
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Any update regarding the info on the compression drivers?
Not sure if you saw I replied to your question a few weeks ago.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...l#post59032756
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post #3110 of 3119 Old 01-17-2020, 05:17 PM
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Not sure if you saw I replied to your question a few weeks ago.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...l#post59032756
Yes I saw it.

Sorry for not acknowledging your post but thanks again for getting that information. It's unfortunate they don't have the data on the driver though.
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post #3111 of 3119 Old 01-18-2020, 04:55 AM
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Question - has anyone tested 2 amping vs single wire? Is there any benefit in doing 2 wire?
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post #3112 of 3119 Old 01-18-2020, 05:35 AM
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Question - has anyone tested 2 amping vs single wire? Is there any benefit in doing 2 wire?
i didn't but i have one pair of 708i's powered with 300w each. the other pair are being powered with 600w each. they sound identical. both using Crown DCI/n amps. I think on several occasions it has been mentioned that there is no benefit in bi-amping them.

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post #3113 of 3119 Old 01-18-2020, 05:51 AM
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Question - has anyone tested 2 amping vs single wire? Is there any benefit in doing 2 wire?
You can find both single wire and bi-amp presets in this thread. There you can get an idea about what is being corrected (and what is not being corrected) in the two presets.

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post #3114 of 3119 Old 01-18-2020, 05:57 AM
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You can find both single wire and bi-amp presets in this thread. There you can get an idea about what is being corrected (and what is not being corrected) in the two presets.<br />
<br />
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<br />
Yeah, I've seen that (in fact even using, but I'm still unsure it's correct, I wanted to measure BSS at the end of last year but didn't had time), but without knowing what's inside of speaker is kinda useless. The only thing I am pretty sure of - tweeter is the same filter in 2 or 1 wire, the woofer is unknown. <br />
Just wanted to buy an amp and not sure what to get and if really want 2 wire or it does not matter.

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post #3115 of 3119 Old 01-18-2020, 12:05 PM
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Question - has anyone tested 2 amping vs single wire? Is there any benefit in doing 2 wire?
If I recall correctly, even JBL themselves stated there is no real benefit of bi-amping these speakers.
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post #3116 of 3119 Old 01-18-2020, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Kain View Post
If I recall correctly, even JBL themselves stated there is no real benefit of bi-amping these speakers.
So it exists solely to sell more amps?
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post #3117 of 3119 Old 01-18-2020, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by aats View Post
So it exists solely to sell more amps?
I am not sure what the real purpose/advantage of it is. I think it was @John Schuermann who provided this information. Maybe he can fill us in.
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post #3118 of 3119 Old 01-18-2020, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by aats View Post
So it exists solely to sell more amps?
I found some information that was provided by one of the engineers of the M2 and 7 Series:

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I can say that time alignment is not a benefit to the 708 bi-amp. First of all, the waveguide serves to time align the drivers to a great extent. Phase summation and time alignment at the crossover is very good for the single wire tuning. The bi-amp tuning is identical to the single wire tuning, just without the passive LF network. This means that it is also phase-coherent with the single wire tuning. Any adjustment of time alignment would change that. Other benefits such as having the back-EMF current on a different circuit that the HF and damping factor improvements for the LF may be important to some people. It’s just that I’m perfectly happy with the single wire tuning, which is what I discussed with you previously.
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post #3119 of 3119 Old 01-18-2020, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Kain View Post
I am not sure what the real purpose/advantage of it is. I think it was John Schuermann who provided this information. Maybe he can fill us in.
There are advantages to biamping. The biggest ones imo are isolation of the speaker components and isolation of the electronics by band. LF generally requires more power, so you're likely to see harmonic distortion earlier. This would normally be transmitted to a tweeter, however that would be on a separate amp output, so you eliminate that distortion from the HF section entirely. Timing is another big advantage. You can have a more coherent signal by adding delay without phase shift. Yet another big advantage is filtering/dsp. You can apply lowpass/highpass to each component with steeper slopes instead of relying on natural rolloff of components or physical filters in a crossover. There are also some more subtle advantages depending on the amplifier and how they implement their negative feedback loop. Ncore does this right at the outputs, so this can lower overall distortion even further.

Anyway, rambling a bit. Not sure the 708 takes full advantage of biamping capabilities anyway.
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