JBL 705i/708i (7 Series Master Reference Monitors) & 725G/728G (subwoofers): Jan 2015 - Page 73 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2161 of 3125 Old 03-27-2018, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post

There are several interesting topics that could benefit from more investigation, but there are very, very few people in the world with the competence, interest, time and money to do the tests. Frankly, as I look back, we are damned lucky to have the experimental evidence we have - in my case thanks to the NRCC and Canadian taxpayers for the formative first 25 years and Harman's generosity over almost as long. As can be deduced from references in my book, not many others have involved the scientific method in understanding loudspeakers and rooms. Opinions, though, are countless and all over the map.

The tests I did in 1985 (pp.174-183 in the third edition) looked at lateral reflections in some detail. Admittedly the loudspeakers we would use now are better than these, but the scatter in the opinion ratings in various categories of imaging and space suggest that personal opinion and/or random factors are substantial influences. It turned out that the recordings themselves were powerful determinants. Listening distance was not a variable, but differences in loudspeaker directivity were significant - dipole vs cone & dome. An additional underlying problem is higher order reflections as listening distance increases and these are less well correlated with speaker directivity. The shape, size and acoustical performance of the room then is a significant factor. I wish you luck in your experiment.

Thank you Dr. Toole

I understand my small experiment is anything but definitive, but it's all in good fun - and who knows that we may stumble upon a pattern between participants.

The room we'll be using is a listening room with -some- acoustic treatments, but nothing out of the ordinary - it resembles a pleasant living room of about 50m²

The idea is to use 2 or 3 models of the same German manufacturer, which are optimised/designed for certain listening distances, and to test them side-by-side at the specified listening distances which will range from 1,5 to 5m. This will depend on which of the models we can get for the day.

I am curious to see if the results will line up with what the manufacturer specifies - or if the anechoic data (which I've been sent - although not in spinorama form ) will paint a more accurate picture of the scores.

To mix things up - I will bring my my own 708 or 705 even. It will not be an SPL or bass extension contest so we may introduce a 50hz or so high-pass to make sure no single monitor will have an advantage. I believe anechoically the 7-series has the most accurate listening window (and probably also on-axis response since it is very close to the former) out of the bunch, so I'm very curious how things will play out.

It's all in good fun and perhaps it will shed a small light on things. I'm by no means a professional - but one has to start somewhere.
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post #2162 of 3125 Old 03-27-2018, 02:40 PM
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The ultimate irony . . .

I have nagged about hearing loss in the music recording and film sound industries. It also happens among musicians, which is the origin of "musician's earplugs". Chapter 17 in the third edition is devoted to it.

An upcoming AES conference is on "Music Induced Hearing Disorders". How ironic that such a pleasurable experience can, if one is careless, degrade the experience itself. :-(

http://www.aes.org/conferences/2018/hearing/
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post #2163 of 3125 Old 03-27-2018, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
I have nagged about hearing loss in the music recording and film sound industries. It also happens among musicians, which is the origin of "musician's earplugs". Chapter 17 in the third edition is devoted to it.

An upcoming AES conference is on "Music Induced Hearing Disorders". How ironic that such a pleasurable experience can, if one is careless, degrade the experience itself. :-(

http://www.aes.org/conferences/2018/hearing/
I'm a glass half full guy, and that is the "half empty" conference

Don't lose faith yet Dr. Toole. "Crispr" may come to the rescue

There is a lot to be hopeful about hearing preservation and restoration in the "near" future. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5534485/

Maybe we will be able to have our cake and eat it too
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post #2164 of 3125 Old 03-27-2018, 07:22 PM
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I wonder if any owners of DIYSG HTM-12 can give some impressions against the 708

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
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post #2165 of 3125 Old 03-27-2018, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
Zzzzz... said: "Presumably the early prototypes had good spins. So I'm wondering why at least to some ears they didn't sound quite right while still measuring very well?"

Measurements are constants, stable and unchanging with time. Opinions are . . . different. I am not aware of this event, but it is quite possible that minor performance changes were involved . . . or not. I don't know what the man had been listening to and had adapted to. In my time on the job, I have seen experienced listeners, including audio professionals and reviewers, change their opinions dramatically based on "something" having nothing to do with the product, which was unchanged. In some cases, reviews especially, the change is attributed to "break in", or the like.

I almost hate to mention it, but it was professional recording engineers, engaged in double-blind listening tests evaluating studio monitors, who revealed the importance of hearing loss to me. It is discussed in a paper: Toole, F. E. (1985). “Subjective measurements of loudspeaker sound quality and listener preferences”, J. Audio Eng. Soc., 33. pp. 2-31. It is also explained in both of my books. Hearing loss is an occupational hazard in pro audio and it takes very little to cause easily observed and measured inconsistencies in subjective judgments. It is not uncommon for double-blind subjective ratings of the same loudspeaker to change dramatically over a few hours. It is not difficult to understand that if one is not able to hear low level timbral cues and distortions, opinions may be different from those of normal-hearing listeners, and may vary with time and program material. Critical listening is a task for young healthy ears :-( "Greybeards" should enjoy their music, but keep their opinions to themselves. I do - my hearing performance is shown in my books, and I am sitting here listening to my tinnitus which was partly sound and partly drug (OTC NSAID) induced.

Some people find it a problem that so much information is embedded in "simple" frequency responses. They persist in beliefs that something important is being ignored, usually related to non-linear distortion or waveform-related aspects, like phase shift, rise time, etc. Non-Linear distortions are important and much effort is expended to minimize them. In largish expensive loudspeakers it is rarely a problem. In inexpensive systems it is more common - good loudspeaker motors are expensive. The definitive evidence of a problem is subjective - distortion measurements commonly in use do not reliably correlate which what is audible in music. As I said, engineers aim for zero measured distortion, and get as close as possible within the cost, time and competence limitations.

Some discussions focus on a single factor, like diaphragm material, assuming that all audible differences are attributable to that. In fact, it is not uncommon for high priced tweeters using an exotic material, for example, to have superior motors yielding less non-linear distortion and reduced power compression. Differences may be heard that have nothing to do with the diaphragm - motors: the invisible variable. However, exotic materials have marketing attractions.

Waveform based factors are another popular topic of differentiation between loudspeakers. From an engineering perspective it is gratifying to see a clean impulse or step response, and to measure linear, or some other desired, phase response. From a listener's perspective it matters little or not at all. Humans are remarkably insensitive to phase shifts, many serious efforts to prove otherwise have not succeeded. Within drivers, which are minimum-phase devices, the time domain performance is predictable from the frequency response. There is no "speed" that is not explained by the frequency response and bandwidth at high frequencies.
Thanks so much for the comments. It seems that the spins are mostly all you need to judge the quality of a speaker. One part that has me a bit confused though is if the algorithm that determines how good a particular set of measurements is takes into account bass extension, why is there a discrepancy in correlations (0.8 vs 0.997)? Is it simply a result of not EQing the bass and differences in how each speaker's bass interacts with the room?

Regarding Frank Filipetti, I thought his opinion was interesting as he liked the earlier JBL LSR models, such as the 6328P, and I believe was still using them as his main studio monitors when he heard the prototype M2. (In fact he had done promotional videos for these monitors.) Also, it was Peter Chaikin that sought out his opinion on them. Recordings that Frank had worked on have been used in the Harman listening tests, and so.

You can read a bit about the early M2 prototype and Frank's opinion here:

http://www.jblpro.com/www/news/news-...zine-aug.-2013

One interesting fact is that the prototype didn't have the new waveguide and "beam[ed] high frequencies".

Edit: sorry I may have misrepresented what was stated in the above link. That the prototype "beam[ed] high frequencies" was not actually stated (he was talking about horns in general). He just states that he "didn't really like" the horn on the prototype.

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post #2166 of 3125 Old 03-28-2018, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
I have nagged about hearing loss in the music recording and film sound industries. It also happens among musicians, which is the origin of "musician's earplugs". Chapter 17 in the third edition is devoted to it.

An upcoming AES conference is on "Music Induced Hearing Disorders". How ironic that such a pleasurable experience can, if one is careless, degrade the experience itself. :-(

http://www.aes.org/conferences/2018/hearing/
on a related note..

"Musician wins landmark ruling over ruined hearing"

http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainmen...571144?SThisFB
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post #2167 of 3125 Old 03-28-2018, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zzzzz... View Post
Thanks so much for the comments. It seems that the spins are mostly all you need to judge the quality of a speaker. One part that has me a bit confused though is if the algorithm that determines how good a particular set of measurements is takes into account bass extension, why is there a discrepancy in correlations (0.8 vs 0.997)? Is it simply a result of not EQing the bass and differences in how each speaker's bass interacts with the room?

Regarding Frank Filipetti, I thought his opinion was interesting as he liked the earlier JBL LSR models, such as the 6328P, and I believe was still using them as his main studio monitors when he heard the prototype M2. (In fact he had done promotional videos for these monitors.) Also, it was Peter Chaikin that sought out his opinion on them. Recordings that Frank had worked on have been used in the Harman listening tests, and so.

You can read a bit about the early M2 prototype and Frank's opinion here:

http://www.jblpro.com/www/news/news-...zine-aug.-2013

One interesting fact is that the prototype didn't have the new waveguide and "beam[ed] high frequencies".

Edit: sorry I may have misrepresented what was stated in the above link. That the prototype "beam[ed] high frequencies" was not actually stated (he was talking about horns in general). He just states that he "didn't really like" the horn on the prototype.
Zzzzz... said: "It seems that the spins are mostly all you need to judge the quality of a speaker." Obviously that only applies to timbral quality - potential neutrality - not non-linear and power compression factors. Many years ago when I started to investigate this topic I thought it would be much more complex than it has turned out to be. Because the first requirement of loudspeakers is to accurately reproduce the timbre of the recording, and with multiple loudspeakers, the spatial aspects, it is a pleasant surprise that so much of this is reliably predictable from the spinorama.

Also: "One part that has me a bit confused though is if the algorithm that determines how good a particular set of measurements is takes into account bass extension, why is there a discrepancy in correlations (0.8 vs 0.997)? Is it simply a result of not EQing the bass and differences in how each speaker's bass interacts with the room?"

In the case of the 70 speaker tests there was a mixture of full bandwidth floor standers and limited bandwidth bookshelf units. The bass varied enormously, resulting in differences in ratings among loudspeakers that would have been rated more similarly if the bass had been constant. In the second test all the speakers had limited bass - they all were bookshelf speakers. Although the sound quality ratings would be lower because of the missing low bass, all of the loudspeakers suffered from approximately the same limitation. So, for frequencies above about 80 - 100 Hz, the algorithm predicted the results with high reliability (correlation 0.997). One can reasonably assume that if all of the loudspeakers had been full bandwidth floor standers the correlation coefficient would again have been higher than 0.8. All of the double-blind tests were conducted in the positional substitution listening room (pp.45-46 in the third edition), with single listeners, so room effects were constant for all loudspeakers, and there was no EQ.

I agree with Frank Filipetti's comments in the report - which I had not seen before. As I have said somewhere in these forums, I am a long term critic of "classic" horns - so many of them exhibit high frequency throat anomalies and at high sound levels, distortion. But, modern designs have been better, and the final M2 horn easily won me over. It is a truly "HiFi" loudspeaker that can also play indecently loud.
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post #2168 of 3125 Old 04-06-2018, 11:33 PM
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post #2169 of 3125 Old 04-07-2018, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MixOnline 705P review
Editor’s Note: JBL has announced the availability of a 7 Series software application that utilizes the HiQnet port to allow setup and live control of multispeaker systems from the mix position.
It'd be nice if he had described this a little more and provided a link to a direct source. For instance, is this a separate app from Audio Architect? I can't research the AA angle because the official AA website certificate is expired and I'm getting a spoofer warning on it.

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post #2170 of 3125 Old 04-07-2018, 02:29 PM
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@John Schuermann

Are the voltage limiters set at the same spec for both the 600 watt and 1250 watt Crown amps? If so, what is the point of using the 1250 watt Crown amp when the limiter is set to the same level as the 600 watt amp?
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post #2171 of 3125 Old 04-07-2018, 05:41 PM
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It'd be nice if he had described this a little more and provided a link to a direct source. For instance, is this a separate app from Audio Architect? I can't research the AA angle because the official AA website certificate is expired and I'm getting a spoofer warning on it.
I think this is the first mention of it - we will have to wait and see. Nice that they have Mac support though. Hoping for a "Turn off lights" option
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post #2172 of 3125 Old 04-10-2018, 07:57 PM
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@John Schuermann

Are the voltage limiters set at the same spec for both the 600 watt and 1250 watt Crown amps? If so, what is the point of using the 1250 watt Crown amp when the limiter is set to the same level as the 600 watt amp?
Good question, and I don't know the answer. Unfortunately my main contact at JBL Pro is gone, but I will see what I can find out...

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The Screening Room Home Theater Sales and Design
JS Music and Sound Film Scoring and Sound Design
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post #2173 of 3125 Old 04-11-2018, 12:56 PM
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I had an interesting experience last night with the 708is. The DCi amp is connected to my wifi router, so I was checking to make sure the tunings were loaded correctly. They weren't. After a little more reading I figured out how to do it correctly. So loading one (channel) at a time and listening, I could actually hear the change in the speaker, like a veil being lifted. The tunings do make a significant difference (improvement). I think the voltage limiter is locked out, but I could not find it either way.
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post #2174 of 3125 Old 04-16-2018, 07:58 AM
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Last day of vacation - so what else to do than some subjective listening and comparing..

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post #2175 of 3125 Old 04-16-2018, 06:11 PM
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Last day of vacation - so what else to do than some subjective listening and comparing..

Is that the 705?

I know this is probably been discussed in great lengths before, but I would love to see a 712P released....
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post #2176 of 3125 Old 04-16-2018, 09:33 PM
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It'd be hard to imagine anything truly new coming for the 7 series now that Sprinkle is gone. A powered sub seems like a logical next step but it seems like JBL pro is still going to keep chugging along with the 6312SP.

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post #2177 of 3125 Old 04-17-2018, 02:36 AM
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Yes, that's a 705i flipped on top of a 708i. My subjective impression is that they sound remarkably similar. One feeling I had was that the 705s had maybe a tad wider dispersion and involved the room a bit more- but that may have been my imagination. Not sure.
Fun anecdote: as I was listening, initially I had the feeling the image was pulling a bit to the left - could not find anything wrong with the settings. Looking closer however I noticed the right 708 and stand had been slightly moved to the back (probably by my spouse).
The 705s pointed that out right away while I hadn't noticed it on the 708s listening to them prior. I'll leave it up for debate weather the 705s revealed it, or if I was just paying more attention to this 'new' setup

Anyhow, match the response below a couple of hundred Hz and it's easy to fool just about anyone that it's the 708s playing, while in reality it's the 705s. I didn't test them up to insane levels, but of course the 708s can handle more current. Add some subs to both for a great full range system that's not too intrusive (especially the 705s) in a room.

A 712P .. well they do have that SCL-2 out, which performance wise would sit in between the 708 and M2.
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post #2178 of 3125 Old 04-17-2018, 03:05 PM
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If I was going to use subs, does it matter whether I use 705 or 708 for surround duty in my home theater? I am us My 705 for Atmos and am wondering whether I should go for 708 as surrounds or 705 as surrounds?

Please feel free to share your thoughts.
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post #2179 of 3125 Old 04-17-2018, 05:43 PM
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If I was going to use subs, does it matter whether I use 705 or 708 for surround duty in my home theater? I am us My 705 for Atmos and am wondering whether I should go for 708 as surrounds or 705 as surrounds?

Please feel free to share your thoughts.
It depends on how close the surrounds are to the listening positions and your expectations for SPL. Hard to give a suggestion without knowing that.
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post #2180 of 3125 Old 04-17-2018, 07:29 PM
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If I was going to use subs, does it matter whether I use 705 or 708 for surround duty in my home theater? I am us My 705 for Atmos and am wondering whether I should go for 708 as surrounds or 705 as surrounds?

Please feel free to share your thoughts.
What are you using for front L/C/R?
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post #2181 of 3125 Old 04-17-2018, 11:43 PM
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The front LCR are JBL M2. The room is 22x15x7.5 and the seating is 12 to 14 feet from front wall. I guess the distance to speakers would be from 6 to 12 ft for the surrounds from MLP.
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post #2182 of 3125 Old 04-18-2018, 05:47 AM
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The front LCR are JBL M2. The room is 22x15x7.5 and the seating is 12 to 14 feet from front wall. I guess the distance to speakers would be from 6 to 12 ft for the surrounds from MLP.
If the expectations for your system are reference level for movies, and similar or above that for music, I would recommend the 708's.

If you only listen to HT below reference, and music 100 dB or below, I'd go with the 705.

And if money is not a concern, I would recommend the 708 regardless, simply to better match the SPL capability of the M2's as a system overall.

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post #2183 of 3125 Old 04-18-2018, 10:46 AM
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With M2's up front, I think the 705's for surrounds would look too small from an aesthetic standpoint. And of course, I second everything Gooddoc said which matters much more than how they will look.
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post #2184 of 3125 Old 04-19-2018, 10:59 AM
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Thanks for the inputs. Will probably go with 708s based on suggestion.
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post #2185 of 3125 Old 04-21-2018, 10:32 PM
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Is anyone using the Auxiliary Connector on the Crown DCi 8:300 to put the amp to sleep?

Mind you post how you're doing it? I'm hesitant to wire a pre-amp trigger to it since I can't find anywhere that indicates it accepts voltage.

Thanks
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post #2186 of 3125 Old 04-22-2018, 06:56 AM
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Is anyone using the Auxiliary Connector on the Crown DCi 8:300 to put the amp to sleep?

Mind you post how you're doing it? I'm hesitant to wire a pre-amp trigger to it since I can't find anywhere that indicates it accepts voltage.

Thanks
It looks like you don't need apply any voltage to it. It looks like you just need a switch/relay to short 2 of the AUX pins together:

Quote:
Originally Posted by pg. 14 of the manual
The Power Save switch enables the Auto-Standby function. In OFF position, the Auto Standby feature is disabled; amplifier power on/off is controlled by the front panel switch or the AUX port ground closure.
It seems like you could use your preamp trigger to drive a relay box. It'd just have to be open when the preamp trigger is applied and closed when there is no trigger (normally closed relay).

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post #2187 of 3125 Old 04-22-2018, 07:05 AM
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It looks like you don't need apply any voltage to it. It looks like you just need a switch/relay to short 2 of the AUX pins together:



It seems like you could use your preamp trigger to drive a relay box. It'd just have to be open when the preamp trigger is applied and closed when there is no trigger (normally closed relay).
I've been using a relay since I bought it. But I wanted to eliminate the relay since it went bad and I didn't want to replace it if I didn't have to. I read the schematics and the manual and came to the same conclusion you did.

But others have indicated that they have used the triggers on their preamps directly to the amp, I was just curious exactly how they did it. @thrang @adidino
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post #2188 of 3125 Old 04-22-2018, 07:09 AM
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I've been using a relay since I bought it. But I wanted to eliminate the relay since it went bad and I didn't want to replace it if I didn't have to. I read the schematics and the manual and came to the same conclusion you did.

But others have indicated that they have used the triggers on their preamps directly to the amp, I was just curious exactly how they did it. @thrang @adidino
If we're talking about triggering power for the Crown amps, I'm using the relay trigger on my RTI XP6 controller. Works without issue. Wasn't able to get it to work on the AVM60. However, it did work on the Marantz 8802 when I had it. I'm now using the Trinnov for my prepro but still using the XP6 controller to trigger the amps.

Last edited by adidino; 04-22-2018 at 07:44 AM.
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post #2189 of 3125 Old 04-22-2018, 07:30 AM
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https://www.globalcache.com/products/itach/ip2ccspecs/



Is another option, which is triggered through my RTI startup macro

UPDATED 4/29/17 Thrang's Home Theater (for now...)
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post #2190 of 3125 Old 04-22-2018, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post
https://www.globalcache.com/products/itach/ip2ccspecs/



Is another option, which is triggered through my RTI startup macro
That's just a set of contacts, which makes sense. I thought it was you who told me you were using the trigger on your preamp to control the amp. I must have misunderstood.

Last edited by Gooddoc; 04-22-2018 at 07:46 AM.
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