JBL 705i/708i (7 Series Master Reference Monitors) & 725G/728G (subwoofers): Jan 2015 - Page 79 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2341 of 2931 Old 10-15-2018, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
All of this begs the question: do they equalize the playback system to hit the X-curve? If so, nobody will hear the 7 series as they can be. It is time to end the X-curve silliness. On the other hand, if they are equalized as one would sensibly do in a home theater or music control room (flat on axis) it would be good to hear the explanation of how this is compatible with conventional cinemas and dubbing stages. One cannot have it both ways.
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post #2342 of 2931 Old 10-15-2018, 03:04 PM
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Great news from the upcoming AES Convention in New York, October 17-20, 2018. Dolby Labs has partnered with JBL Professional to demo an immersive audio system. Be sure to check it out if you can.



Dolby Laboratories and JBL Professional Present Immersive Audio for the Modern Control Room


Experience music, film and broadcast content created in Dolby Atmos® and played back via the new JBL 7 Series studio monitor system—featuring exceptional detail and cinematic dynamic range. The complete production, mastering and monitoring system makes it easy and affordable to create Dolby Atmos audio in your own studio.


Demo schedule: every hour on the hour
Level One, Demo Room 1E05
I found a pic of the AES Dolby 7-series demo room!








Hehehe!
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post #2343 of 2931 Old 10-15-2018, 03:13 PM
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I found a pic of the AES Dolby 7-series demo room!






Hehehe!

Thats awesome!!!! They even have your favorite blankets!!!!
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post #2344 of 2931 Old 10-15-2018, 05:22 PM
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I found a pic of the AES Dolby 7-series demo room!








Hehehe!
This is interesting - and thanks for the insight. This is a home theater setup -with the base level surround speakers close to ear level. In cinemas and in Atmos mixing setups the surround speakers are very high on the walls, many very close to the ceiling, and there is an elaborate ceiling array. What is heard in this setup is not what was heard by the movie soundtrack mixers. Object-oriented arguments do not work for the difference in elevation between the surrounds and elevation (ceiling) speakers.

In addition, as I asked in an earlier post: is the X-curve used? They cannot have both a cinema speaker arrangement/equalization and a home theater speaker arrangement/equalization at the same time! Which is this, and what is the message. I would hope that those who experience the demo are told.

I am of course pleased that they respect JBL 7-series speakers to accurately reproduce signals delivered to them - that is what they were designed to do. If all films could be repurposed for mass market distribution using such a setup equalized for flat direct sound, the world outside cinemas would be better served. The fact that we are entertained in spite of the disparity that often exists is a tribute to human adaptability. I have enjoyed the directional contrasts in some movies. But, getting real, there are circles of confusion - spatially and timbrally.
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post #2345 of 2931 Old 10-15-2018, 07:03 PM
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Thats awesome!!!! They even have your favorite blankets!!!!
LOL!, Crazy, right?

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This is interesting - and thanks for the insight. This is a home theater setup -with the base level surround speakers close to ear level. In cinemas and in Atmos mixing setups the surround speakers are very high on the walls, many very close to the ceiling, and there is an elaborate ceiling array. What is heard in this setup is not what was heard by the movie soundtrack mixers.
Oh, by the way, that is my system Dr. Toole. Kind of an inside joke for the regulars around here.

The interesting part of that is that mounting surround speakers high on the walls is against Dolby's own placement guidelines. What is heard in this setup is exactly what Dolby specifies should be heard. So I guess I have to wait for the industry to start complying with the Dolby guidelines.

It's no different in my mind than the decision I made to purchase accurate speakers. At least I know if I'm not hearing things the way it was intended, the problem is not on my end.

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post #2346 of 2931 Old 10-15-2018, 08:06 PM
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LOL!, Crazy, right?


Oh, by the way, that is my system Dr. Toole. Kind of an inside joke for the regulars around here. . Oh, Oh, I got caught, but my comments still apply

The interesting part of that is that mounting surround speakers high on the walls is against Dolby's own placement guidelines. ]
.

But only for home applications. It is SMPTE, not Dolby, that decides how things are arranged and calibrated in professional mixing/dubbing venues and cinemas. If you look around online you will find much evidence of Atmos recording venues with the surround speakers very close to the ceiling. This is the case in most/all cinemas. The elevated surround loudspeaker locations were decided long ago in the era of Dolby Stereo - mono to all surround speakers, low-pass filtered around 7 kHz to avoid distracting sibilant splatters from distorted optical soundtracks driving a leaky analog decode matrix. Elevating the speakers lessened the problem and added a "spatial" element. The practice continues, but we are in a different world. It is time to change.

But this is an industry with enormous inertia, as I discuss in my book - Chapter 11. Don't hold your breath for change. I am a member of the SMPTE standards committee and will do what I can.
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post #2347 of 2931 Old 10-15-2018, 09:41 PM
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What method are you using in your home theater for rears and surround? SMPTE, Dolby or Dr. Toole?

Dolby:
"You'll get the best sound when the front and surround speakers are at or slightly above your ear level when you're seated. Wall-mounted surrounds can be higher". https://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/do...-2-setups.html

Dolby:
"All listener speakers should be at the same height, typically 3.9 feet (1.2 meters), which is ear level for the average seated listener (as defined in ITU-R BS.1116-1).
If possible, the height of the rear speakers should be the same as the height of the front speakers. If the room design makes this impractical or impossible, the rear speakers may be positioned higher than the front speakers. However, we suggest that the height of the rear speakers not be more than 1.25 times the height of the front speakers."
Dolby Atmos Home Installation Guidelines - https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolo...ion-Guidelines

Are atoms and other dolby mixes being re-mixed for home use? The confusion seems to be getting worse.
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post #2348 of 2931 Old 10-16-2018, 04:05 AM
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.

But only for home applications. It is SMPTE, not Dolby, that decides how things are arranged and calibrated in professional mixing/dubbing venues and cinemas. If you look around online you will find much evidence of Atmos recording venues with the surround speakers very close to the ceiling. This is the case in most/all cinemas. The elevated surround loudspeaker locations were decided long ago in the era of Dolby Stereo - mono to all surround speakers, low-pass filtered around 7 kHz to avoid distracting sibilant splatters from distorted optical soundtracks driving a leaky analog decode matrix. Elevating the speakers lessened the problem and added a "spatial" element. The practice continues, but we are in a different world. It is time to change.

But this is an industry with enormous inertia, as I discuss in my book - Chapter 11. Don't hold your breath for change. I am a member of the SMPTE standards committee and will do what I can.
Yes, only for home. As is typical, the industry rewards the consumer with a swift kick in the face.
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post #2349 of 2931 Old 10-16-2018, 05:09 AM
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Industry people are slowly catching on due to the efforts of capable people, Dr. Toole being one of them.
Some small inaccuracies in this video - but it seems to capture the gist of the debate.

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post #2350 of 2931 Old 10-16-2018, 05:43 AM
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Quote:
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I found a pic of the AES Dolby 7-series demo room!



Hehehe!
I'm disappointed that M2 horn is in line with the bottom of the video. Should be at least at the center.

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The surround speaker is lower than ear level?

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post #2351 of 2931 Old 10-16-2018, 08:38 AM
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I'm disappointed that M2 horn is in line with the bottom of the video. Should be at least at the center.
Yeah, me too. I'm going to let them know my dissatisfaction on the comment card!
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post #2352 of 2931 Old 10-16-2018, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by jamesyates View Post
What method are you using in your home theater for rears and surround? SMPTE, Dolby or Dr. Toole?

Dolby:
"You'll get the best sound when the front and surround speakers are at or slightly above your ear level when you're seated. Wall-mounted surrounds can be higher". https://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/do...-2-setups.html

Dolby:
"All listener speakers should be at the same height, typically 3.9 feet (1.2 meters), which is ear level for the average seated listener (as defined in ITU-R BS.1116-1).
If possible, the height of the rear speakers should be the same as the height of the front speakers. If the room design makes this impractical or impossible, the rear speakers may be positioned higher than the front speakers. However, we suggest that the height of the rear speakers not be more than 1.25 times the height of the front speakers."
Dolby Atmos Home Installation Guidelines - https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolo...ion-Guidelines

Are atoms and other dolby mixes being re-mixed for home use? The confusion seems to be getting worse.
There is no need to break a sweat trying to find the perfect height. Vertical localization in humans is very imprecise. In home theaters it is important the the high frequencies, which mostly determine localization, are able to reach the ears of all listeners. This means that if there are multiple listeners the surround speakers, tweeters at least, need to be slightly elevated. In discussions with CEDIA people over several years we agreed that 1 to 2 feet above ear level was effective as a rule of thumb. This is vertical elevation used by DTS:X and Auro-3D for both mixing and home theater playback.

Dolby, and movie production facilities, put them much higher in the professional venues, but then change the rules for homes. Obviously the experiences cannot be the same. I suspect that to recommend otherwise would create market resistance from the multitudes who don't want to or cannot put speakers on walls. It is good business.

It is business that allows them to promote upward facing "Atmos enabled" loudspeakers bouncing sound off the ceiling instead of real speakers up there. It is business that has led to sound bars advertising Atmos capability. It is business that allows them to claim Atmos immersive sound experiences from phones, tablets and headphones. It is all on their website, I'm not making it up. Where will it end?

If all of these media deliver Dolby approved Atmos experiences, it cannot matter much where you put your surround or elevation speakers
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post #2353 of 2931 Old 10-16-2018, 12:34 PM
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Industry people are slowly catching on due to the efforts of capable people, Dr. Toole being one of them.
Some small inaccuracies in this video - but it seems to capture the gist of the debate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gfo9KiTIko
Yes the QSC guy "gets it". I think I heard some of my own words from: Toole, F. E. (2015). “The Measurement and Calibration of Sound Reproducing Systems”, J. Audio Eng. Soc., vol. 63, pp.512-541. This is an open-access paper available to non-members at www.aes.org

Or, my book.

I was pleased to hear his comments on the sharp knee in the X curve at 2 kHz - it should not be there, yet some calibrators pride themselves on reproducing it accurately. Such cinemas often sound better if the EQ is turned off. Poor patrons.
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Dolby, and movie production facilities, put them much higher in the professional venues, but then change the rules for homes. Obviously the experiences cannot be the same. I suspect that to recommend otherwise would create market resistance from the multitudes who don't want to or cannot put speakers on walls. It is good business.

It is business that allows them to promote upward facing "Atmos enabled" loudspeakers bouncing sound off the ceiling instead of real speakers up there. It is business that has led to sound bars advertising Atmos capability. It is business that allows them to claim Atmos immersive sound experiences from phones, tablets and headphones. It is all on their website, I'm not making it up. Where will it end?

If all of these media deliver Dolby approved Atmos experiences, it cannot matter much where you put your surround or elevation speakers
I think Dolby Atmos is starting to have more in common with Bose. Product design flowchart: C-Suite > Marketing Department > Packaging > Engineering. Dolbosey.
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I think Dolby Atmos is starting to have more in common with Bose. Product design flowchart: C-Suite > Marketing Department > Packaging > Engineering. Dolbosey.
Ok. Its all fun and games until you compare Dolby Labs with Bose.
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When I was learning audio fundamentals at the Institute of Audio Research in NY in 1974, John Woram ("The Recording Studio Handbook") was teaching a class. He made a joke. Two Japanese engineers were brainstorming. One guy says (in John's best Japanese accent), "Hey Harry, how we sell more speaker"? Harry replies, "QUAD"!
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post #2357 of 2931 Old 10-16-2018, 03:57 PM
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Ok. Its all fun and games until you compare Dolby Labs with Bose.
I just call it as I'm seeing it. There is clearly no actual standard for Atmos. Speakers wherever, or none at all. Doesn't seem to matter.
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I just call it as I'm seeing it. There is clearly no actual standard for Atmos. Speakers wherever, or none at all. Doesn't seem to matter.
All I know is I have 9 channels in my living room placed where Dolby told me to place them and Bladerunner 2049 is [email protected]@p your pants awesome in Atmos. I know enough not to buy into an Atmos sound bar--which I agree is total BS--but Dolby is doing something right with Atmos.
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It is business that allows them to promote upward facing "Atmos enabled" loudspeakers bouncing sound off the ceiling instead of real speakers up there. It is business that has led to sound bars advertising Atmos capability. It is business that allows them to claim Atmos immersive sound experiences from phones, tablets and headphones. It is all on their website, I'm not making it up. Where will it end?

If all of these media deliver Dolby approved Atmos experiences, it cannot matter much where you put your surround or elevation speakers
In this respect - Auro3D, imho, makes a lot more sense, especially for the home environment. It's a pity it's not more popular than it is currently.
And I'm not just saying this because it was pioneered a few hours from where I live. The initial idea, before blockbuster movies implemented it, was to enhance the musical experience for listeners. I remember being told of a demo session from a few years back. The Brussels Jazz Orchestra which include some friends of mine were playing live in the main room at Galaxy Studios (Wilfried's recording venue) with live playback (video+auro 3D audio) in the dubbing stage. I wish I learned about it sooner so I could have been there. I was told it was quite superb, and I don't doubt it.

I'm not entirely convinced on the whole object based surround platform, especially the (down)mixes that are presented to the general public, at least from what I've experienced - apart from the specifically engineered Atmos blu-ray demo disc of course. And this is, imho, the real bottleneck at the moment of course - the mixes for playback at home. Many of them, very audibly, have the X-curve EQ'd into the mix. Dreadful!

But, it seems there's hope for the future. :-)
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post #2360 of 2931 Old 10-16-2018, 05:08 PM
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All I know is I have 9 channels in my living room placed where Dolby told me to place them and Bladerunner 2049 is [email protected]@p your pants awesome in Atmos. I know enough not to buy into an Atmos sound bar--which I agree is total BS--but Dolby is doing something right with Atmos.
What I'm saying is they took something good and made the marketing decision that anything that made sound would suffice to bear the Atmos logo. Whatever works to sell a product. You want your speakers low? Great, that works perfectly! Want your speakers high? Great too. Soundbar? Awesome. Cell phone? Wow, you're golden. Built-in TV speakers? No problem! Not enough speakers? No problemo.
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In this respect - Auro3D, imho, makes a lot more sense, especially for the home environment. It's a pity it's not more popular than it is currently.
And I'm not just saying this because it was pioneered a few hours from where I live. The initial idea, before blockbuster movies implemented it, was to enhance the musical experience for listeners. I remember being told of a demo session from a few years back. The Brussels Jazz Orchestra which include some friends of mine were playing live in the main room at Galaxy Studios (Wilfried's recording venue) with live playback (video+auro 3D audio) in the dubbing stage. I wish I learned about it sooner so I could have been there. I was told it was quite superb, and I don't doubt it.

I'm not entirely convinced on the whole object based surround platform, especially the (down)mixes that are presented to the general public, at least from what I've experienced - apart from the specifically engineered Atmos blu-ray demo disc of course. And this is, imho, the real bottleneck at the moment of course - the mixes for playback at home. Many of them, very audibly, have the X-curve EQ'd into the mix. Dreadful!

But, it seems there's hope for the future. :-)
I could not agree more about the virtues of Auro3D. A couple of years ago at a CEDIA event, Wilfried saw me, invited me to his display, and I had a private demonstration of some custom audio/video tracks (one of which very effectively used the ear level speakers), The realism was persuasive. There were a couple of movie clips about which one can only say that sounds came from all around and they were engaging, and finally he played two music clips, without video. In one I was persuasively "in" a concert hall, orchestra up front and I could walk around a large area of the room without destroying the illusion - no sweet spot. The second put me at an organ recital in a cathedral. Without a doubt, this was the best rendering of orchestra or instrument in an acoustic space that I had ever heard. Very impressive.

Now I can do it at home (I will soon post a description of my system in the Revel and possibly other threads).

I have an interesting disc of Praetorius recorded in stereo, 5.1, Auro3D and Dolby Atmos. One can switch at will among them. In my system Auro3D wins easily. 5.1 would be my second choice and Atmos my last choice among the multichannel options. It was engineered by Dr. Hyunkook Lee of U. Of Huddersfield with input from representatives of the different formats. Delphian DCD34303 - I imported it from England. Obviously the final result is the result of human judgement on the parts of those supervising the mixes, so inherent superiority of any playback format has not been demonstrated, but it is another piece of information. Nevertheless, when multichannel music is good, it is very, very good!

It is a shame that Auro3D is not more widely known and distributed. I have heard that it is better represented in Europe and that it is very strong in Bollywood.
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It is a shame that Auro3D is not more widely known and distributed. I have heard that it is better represented in Europe and that it is very strong in Bollywood.
I know very little about Auro3D. Many positive reviews quickly found though. Can an Atmos speaker layout be used for Auro?

And of course my prepro doesn't support Auro3D, so trying it would mean a prepro swap. Tempting though since I would swap for better music reproduction.
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Ty. Atmos and Auro3D speaker placements don't look compatible. I would actually prefer the heights up high on the walls rather than the ceiling.
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Do not click this FAIL thread.

In the last 2 weeks I've been having a spectacular experience with 4 heights high on the wall with Atmos as well as Logic7 upmixing of 2ch stuff. I'd have to see some pretty convincing stuff to warrant ceiling mounting. It'd be interesting to know how Auro 3D upmixing compares.

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Ty. Atmos and Auro3D speaker placements don't look compatible. I would actually prefer the heights up high on the walls rather than the ceiling.
It doesn't matter which surface the speakers are attached to. The important things are the vertical and horizontal angles from the prime listener's head. Depending on local geometry it can be different surfaces, with exactly the same audible result.
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It doesn't matter which surface the speakers are attached to. The important things are the vertical and horizontal angles from the prime listener's head. Depending on local geometry it can be different surfaces, with exactly the same audible result.
With my local geometry I would be out of Dolby "spec", whatever that means, lol. Maybe I should just mount some cell phones at the wall/ceiling junction .

I would be ok with compromising Atmos if Auro3D is a better music codec. That seems to be the case the more I read. Besides, it seems like Atmos might work pretty darn good in that configuration any way, maybe even more to spec with where the soundtacks were mixed. I think change is in my future.
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post #2368 of 2931 Old 10-18-2018, 01:17 AM
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With my local geometry I would be out of Dolby "spec", whatever that means, lol. Maybe I should just mount some cell phones at the wall/ceiling junction .

I would be ok with compromising Atmos if Auro3D is a better music codec. That seems to be the case the more I read. Besides, it seems like Atmos might work pretty darn good in that configuration any way, maybe even more to spec with where the soundtacks were mixed. I think change is in my future.
I've ran both an Auro set-up and an Atmos set-up extensively, I'd recommend that its better to do it the other way around than you suggest.

There is precious little Auro content currently, and unlikely to be significantly more in the future, so if you added Auro to your system, you'd most likely be using the upmixer most of the time. In that case, I've found Auro upmixing is very forgiving of speaker placement given the way it works (basically copying channels and adding reverb) - native Atmos tracks with dedicated objects is much less so.

Auro upmixing incidentally is superb for music, it achieves - with the click of a button - that massive sound stage and 'at the live' event feeling that many two channel purist spend decades trying to achieve. It's not nearly as good at upmixing movie soundtracks however, DSU is substantially better and gives a significant boost to apparent spacial resolution compared to Auro - again mainly, I suspect, to the additional reverb that Auro adds.

As for the mixing of home Atmos tracks, my understanding was that these get remixed for home use either by using auto-rendering within the Dolby software, or manually remixed - they don't simply port over the commercial Atmos mix untouched - in such cases they are mixed on domestic style layouts (usually limited to 7.1.4 sadly) to Dolby home spec.

Certainly this is one of Sonys:



And this is one of Dolby's own in San Francisco:



Critically the base layer surrounds are at or close to ear level.
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post #2369 of 2931 Old 10-18-2018, 01:46 AM
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I would be ok with compromising Atmos if Auro3D is a better music codec. That seems to be the case the more I read. Besides, it seems like Atmos might work pretty darn good in that configuration any way, maybe even more to spec with where the soundtacks were mixed. I think change is in my future.
Really? If you look at the surrounds and overheads in a typical Atmos dubbing stage, you'll see that they are positioned considerably higher than what the home Atmos guidelines describes as being optimal, and which puts them even further away from an optimal Auro3D lay-out.

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As for the mixing of home Atmos tracks, my understanding was that these get remixed for home use either by using auto-rendering within the Dolby software, or manually remixed - they don't simply port over the commercial Atmos mix untouched - in such cases they are mixed on domestic style layouts (usually limited to 7.1.4 sadly) to Dolby home spec.
My understanding is that the positional object metadata are usually left untouched when a cinematic Atmos track is remixed for home use. That would mean that only the Atmos tracks originally made for home use will accurately represent the mixer's/directors intent as far object placement is concerned.

A good idea and understanding lies at the base of every successful project.

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post #2370 of 2931 Old 10-18-2018, 02:36 AM
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My understanding is that the positional object metadata are usually left untouched when a cinematic Atmos track is remixed for home use. That would mean that only the Atmos tracks originally made for home use will accurately represent the mixer's/directors intent as far object placement is concerned.
Why do they bother remixing for home Atmos on a typical 7.1.4 home layout then? If they're not actually changing any objects for a home layout, surely they could just fold down the beds into the home bed channel count, and leave the objects as they are?

Edit: Actually, now I've had some coffee and thought about it properly, maybe it doesn't even matter if the mixers are locating object in a 3D space, not to a speaker location. I assume for example, if they mix an object for a car passing on the right, that object will be placed at around ear level as you would physically expect it to be in the real world. The fact that the commercial surround speakers are placed too high to render that properly is irrelevant, as they still render the object in any case (since there are no speakers below). If the object metadata is maintained in the home mix as you say, the home layout will render this in the correct physical position.

In fact the home layout has greater ability to render objects on the correct vertical plane than an commercial system simply by virtue that it can phantom image to a wider range of elevations.

Last edited by Wookii; 10-18-2018 at 03:02 AM.
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