JBL 705i/708i (7 Series Master Reference Monitors) & 725G/728G (subwoofers): Jan 2015 - Page 96 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2851 of 2918 Old 05-22-2019, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
Has anyone here asking questions about the tunings tried to contact JBL Pro tech support?

https://www.jblpro.com/www/support/contact

http://www.jblproservice.com/forms/us_tech.html

http://www.jblproservice.com/

Just to be clear, I don't work for Harman/JBL or The Screening Room. I'm an independent contractor who tries to assist TSR with things here on AVS Forums when I have time.

I contacted a JBL rep twice, he sent the inquiry to JBL Tech support. I have not heard back and don't know what more I can do.

I don't own 708's and don't have first hand experience with them. Sorry I can't be more helpful.
Thanks for the assistance Rex! Yeah, you and John are so helpful I sometimes think you have a Bat Phone straight to JBL engineers .
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post #2852 of 2918 Old 05-22-2019, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
I've commented on the SQ, so not everyone. I never considered it could be an incorrect tuning though. I just figured it was just how it was.
You are right - if you heard that something is wrong it is almost unthinkable that such error can occur, so that would really explain this phenomenon if it is really the case (which I still doubt), not that bias thing.

I just thought about it - you don't really need to measure anything (well, you need at the end to confirm, but that is another story) - from what I remember there is still an "input" filter section in dCIN that is not closed from editing. So you can enter missing filters there and check out sound quality (if someone can turn off/on these filters so you listen blind - even better), if we imply that Harman research is right you will prefer a flatter response out of those.

Last edited by aats; 05-22-2019 at 12:35 PM.
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post #2853 of 2918 Old 05-22-2019, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by aats View Post
It's hard to believe that everyone was so biased that didn't heard something wrong and checked with jbl for 4 years. If it so I consider this one of the largest confirmation bias experiment in audio I know of (i don't know sales numbers but think it's not bad).
Maybe there is some part we can't see. We could see everything for m2 though.
I was waiting on absolute confirmation to go there
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post #2854 of 2918 Old 05-22-2019, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
Thanks for the assistance Rex! Yeah, you and John are so helpful I sometimes think you have a Bat Phone straight to JBL engineers .
Thanks, we try hard!

I'm close to getting settled in my new digs after having to move four times in the past year. I'm within driving distance to Harman and have made plans to go there in about a month. If this issue has not been resolved by then, I'll make every effort to find the right person to ask about it. Even better than a Bat Phone!
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post #2855 of 2918 Old 05-22-2019, 01:16 PM
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I've commented that the panning from 708 center channel to M2 LR is different as well. But, there's too many factors for me to think something was wrong. The center is much higher than the M2, so different floor/ceiling bounce and being farther away from the boundary sidewalls is going to affect the sound.

Also, they're not in the same ballpark for cabinet construction.

I look forward to the answer. If one happens.
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post #2856 of 2918 Old 05-23-2019, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
I was waiting on absolute confirmation to go there
Yeah, it's a universal possibility. Although I have plainly stated my opinions of the 7 series SQ, I'm cautious in my criticism in the event a bias towards the M2 is tainting my impressions. I've not blind A/B'd them, so I'm careful not to place too much weight on my sighted impressions.
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post #2857 of 2918 Old 05-23-2019, 02:46 PM
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You'd think that JBL would want to release something based on this thread. It's helped sell a lot of 7 series speakers.

It does put them in a weird spot though to acknowledge the hacked settings and comment on them one way or another, validating them.
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post #2858 of 2918 Old 05-23-2019, 04:29 PM
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I'm not sure that I would identify anything out of sorts if I didn't have the M2's to compare them to, so let's not get too crazy here . They certainly don't sound bad, and in fact they sound darn good. Everything is relative.
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post #2859 of 2918 Old 05-23-2019, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
I'm not sure that I would identify anything out of sorts if I didn't have the M2's to compare them to, so let's not get too crazy here . They certainly don't sound bad, and in fact they sound darn good. Everything is relative.
Agreed, I found them to be superb. But if they left accuracy on the table, it should be corrected.
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post #2860 of 2918 Old 05-23-2019, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Agreed, I found them to be superb. But if they left accuracy on the table, it should be corrected.
Here's a capture of a spreadsheet I did for the 708i, comparing the filter parameters captured by @notnyt in London Architect for the BLU-50 to Audio Architect for the DCi series (assuming there aren't some "hidden" input filters in the DCi). Note especially the missing filter 15 from the BLU-50. This PEQ has a center frequency of 740 Hz, a cut of 4.19 dB and a bandwidth of half an octave.

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Last edited by andyc56; 05-23-2019 at 07:12 PM. Reason: added mention to give credit
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post #2861 of 2918 Old 05-23-2019, 07:04 PM
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I assume this impacts the 705/708I and the tuning files for the crown amps and BSS software. I think I have seen more posts (more owners) on AVS on the 705/708P. I assume those are not impacted since they have everything built in?
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post #2862 of 2918 Old 05-23-2019, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post
Here's a capture of a spreadsheet I did for the 708i, comparing the filter parameters captured by @notnyt in London Architect for the BLU-50 to Audio Architect for the DCi series (assuming there aren't some "hidden" input filters in the DCi). Note especially the missing filter 15 from the BLU-50. This PEQ has a center frequency of 740 Hz, a cut of 4.19 dB and a bandwidth of half an octave.


Thanks for doing this Andy. I'm going to send it to our rep to see if we can get JBL Pro Tech to look into it. It helps to have this detailed information.
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post #2863 of 2918 Old 05-24-2019, 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Jsin_N View Post
You'd think that JBL would want to release something based on this thread. It's helped sell a lot of 7 series speakers.

It does put them in a weird spot though to acknowledge the hacked settings and comment on them one way or another, validating them.
Yes, that would be hard for them, they still want to sell electronic equipment and for anyone who is ok with some bit of setting up crown dcin and blu can't compete at small scale non-commercial installations imo.

Last edited by aats; 05-24-2019 at 01:14 AM.
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post #2864 of 2918 Old 05-24-2019, 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post
I assume this impacts the 705/708I and the tuning files for the crown amps and BSS software. I think I have seen more posts (more owners) on AVS on the 705/708P. I assume those are not impacted since they have everything built in?
Mine are the 708p, so that may be why I didn't hear anything amiss. I do have 705i for Atmos that are going to be powered by a DCI amp, so this does impact me if there is a problem.
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post #2865 of 2918 Old 05-24-2019, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Mine are the 708p, so that may be why I didn't hear anything amiss. I do have 705i for Atmos that are going to be powered by a DCI amp, so this does impact me if there is a problem.
I found the 7's to not be quite as smooth as the M2's and with a bit more "bite"/"brighter".

When you get the M2's up and running you can make that comparo.

The tuning problem "could" be the reason for this. Eventually we'll find out .
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post #2866 of 2918 Old 05-24-2019, 08:21 AM
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I just got off the phone with JBL Pro support. The tech I spoke with said that he is aware of this situation, it has come up already, and that the tunings are simply hidden. I didn't let him off easy, lol, and he was adamant that this has been looked into and confirmed.

When I told him the 708's don't sound like the M2's, he laughed and said, "of course they don't"

So, that's the official line at this point and I'm assuming that the speakers sound as they should unless proven otherwise.
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post #2867 of 2918 Old 05-24-2019, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
I just got off the phone with JBL Pro support. The tech I spoke with said that he is aware of this situation, it has come up already, and that the tunings are simply hidden. I didn't let him off easy, lol, and he was adamant that this has been looked into and confirmed.

When I told him the 708's don't sound like the M2's, he laughed and said, "of course they don't"

So, that's the official line at this point and I'm assuming that the speakers sound as they should unless proven otherwise.
And I think your gut reaction and mine is (and probably others).....rightttttttt . That sounds a lot like corporate speak for "holy #@$%, don't let Joe Public know the truth"

Who knows, maybe that is the truth but it sure sounds fishy. Why would they be hidden? Are other speakers hidden or just for some reason for the 705/708..mmmmmm
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post #2868 of 2918 Old 05-24-2019, 08:55 AM
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And I think your gut reaction and mine is (and probably others).....rightttttttt . That sounds a lot like corporate speak for "holy #@$%, don't let Joe Public know the truth"

Who knows, maybe that is the truth but it sure sounds fishy. Why would they be hidden? Are other speakers hidden or just for some reason for the 705/708..mmmmmm
They are not user accessible or viewable, which makes sense since they are not to be modified by the end user. I don't know how they were hacked/unlocked.
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post #2869 of 2918 Old 05-24-2019, 08:58 AM
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They are not user accessible or viewable, which makes sense since they are not to be modified by the end user. I don't know how they were hacked/unlocked.

1)don't undermine my perfectly good conspiracy theory

2)when looking at Andy's screen grab, why do some say "missing" and some not. Wouldn't they all say "missing" if they were hidden?
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post #2870 of 2918 Old 05-24-2019, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post
1)don't undermine my perfectly good conspiracy theory

2)when looking at Andy's screen grab, why do some say "missing" and some not. Wouldn't they all say "missing" if they were hidden?
Bingo! I said to the tech, "I get that they are hidden, but there are folks that have unlocked them. So, you're saying that only "some" of the filters were unlocked and there are more that are still hidden?" Answer: "Yes"

I have my reservations about that particular answer too
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post #2871 of 2918 Old 05-24-2019, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
I just got off the phone with JBL Pro support. The tech I spoke with said that he is aware of this situation, it has come up already, and that the tunings are simply hidden. I didn't let him off easy, lol, and he was adamant that this has been looked into and confirmed.

When I told him the 708's don't sound like the M2's, he laughed and said, "of course they don't"

So, that's the official line at this point and I'm assuming that the speakers sound as they should unless proven otherwise.
Great, but why they haven't hid the whole thing if it is the case is beyond my understanding.


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And I think your gut reaction and mine is (and probably others).....rightttttttt . That sounds a lot like corporate speak for "holy #@$%, don't let Joe Public know the truth"

Who knows, maybe that is the truth but it sure sounds fishy. Why would they be hidden? Are other speakers hidden or just for some reason for the 705/708..mmmmmm
A lot of speakers have open configurations. Atleast on EQ side.
The reason is to make you buy JBL electronics, it is quite obvious I think.
You can download this program for free on JBL website and see for yourself.

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post #2872 of 2918 Old 05-24-2019, 09:59 AM
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Are we assuming the 708P doesn't have this issue? If yes, can we not compare the 708P to the 708i?
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post #2873 of 2918 Old 05-24-2019, 10:25 AM
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Bingo! I said to the tech, "I get that they are hidden, but there are folks that have unlocked them. So, you're saying that only "some" of the filters were unlocked and there are more that are still hidden?" Answer: "Yes"

I have my reservations about that particular answer too
Sounds like nonsense. There are only so many locations for filters in the amp, and they're just not showing at all. While the tunings can be locked (and easily unlocked) there are only 8 filter spots on output (which are the ones that are locked). The input filters are empty and it shows an empty FIR filter.

Granted, there's a possibility the software is terrible and still hiding something... you should measure
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post #2874 of 2918 Old 05-24-2019, 10:49 AM
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This is the data for the LSR708i single wire from the tuning file:

Spoiler!


Frequencies are specified with SVClassID 587. I've pulled only those lines out of the file.

Spoiler!


Looking in the file for any signs of the missing filter frequencies (450|16700|9750|2180|5220|3250|1720|740) turns up nothing.

The only real unknown in the file is this single entry. Perhaps it could be an FIR filter, however the FIR box shows "0" after loading the settings. That coupled with the input filters being empty lead me to believe there are missing filters.

Spoiler!
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post #2875 of 2918 Old 05-24-2019, 10:55 AM
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If anyone with a DCIn amp, a multimeter, and REW want to take some measurements, let me know and I'll walk you through it. You'll need some basic cables or alligator clips to get the output of the amp hooked up to the input of a soundcard.

Could also do it the old fashioned way with a signal generator (REW or other) and a multimeter, and just measure voltage at various frequencies and plot that response.

Alternatively, if someone wants to ship a DCIn amp this way, I'll put it through a set of standard measurements as well as see what's up with the filters. Turnaround should be <1 week.

Would like to see this put to rest one way or another.
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post #2876 of 2918 Old 05-24-2019, 11:00 AM
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Best case: unintentional GUI limitation in the AA software.
Middle case: they intentionally limit displayed filters to steer clients towards sanctioned JBL installations (not just for 7 series but for all their pro speaker distributions).
Worst case: Someone didn't actually test their end product.

Life is Lambertian
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post #2877 of 2918 Old 05-24-2019, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by 12B4A View Post
Best case: unintentional GUI limitation in the AA software.
Middle case: they intentionally limit displayed filters to steer clients towards sanctioned JBL installations (not just for 7 series but for all their pro speaker distributions).
Worst case: Someone didn't actually test their end product.
The reason I don't think it's the middle case is because that functionality exists in the AA software, it places a lock on the filters when enabled and doesn't display them. The DCIn amps can have 8 filters on input, and 8 filters on output. The output filters are locked by default and the input filters are just empty.
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post #2878 of 2918 Old 05-24-2019, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Kain View Post
Are we assuming the 708P doesn't have this issue? If yes, can we not compare the 708P to the 708i?
705p has no issues for sure - it was measured by sound and recording magazine and it is flat and looks similar to a spin that was posted in this thread.
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post #2880 of 2918 Old 05-24-2019, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Go to the larger AV and pro audio forums and post a thread - Avoid JBL 7 series - Inaccurate tuning files. They will likely respond to this type of activity as it negative press and potentially revenue impacting.
That would not be fair. I've long been saying the decoded filters* were wrong because I measured the 705i and 708i both incomplete and with the remaining filters (BSS), and also measured the line output from a BSS processor with the filters engaged. So I knew with complete certainty that the decoded filters were wrong. I also knew the speakers perform as intended when used properly.

*"tunings" sounds stupid and pretentious to me, so I will use the standard language.

Quote:
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I found the 7's to not be quite as smooth as the M2's and with a bit more "bite"/"brighter".
Both the LSR705i/P and LSR708i/P? The reason I ask is that the 708 is voiced a little brighter than the 705. Jeff Bagby's definition of reference level for a speaker's FR to be its FR at 200Hz makes sense to me. I've attached the spins for the LSR705i and LSR708i with a dotted "reference level" line. Note that the relative level of the tweeter on the LSR708i is a little elevated, while the LSR705i hews closer to reference level (resonance seemingly inherent to the tweeter - appears in both plots - at ~3.5kHz excepted).

So anyone who hears a little brightness from the LSR708i (or presumably LSR708P), try a low shelf at around 1.5kHz. Maybe start with 0.5dB attenuation and also experiment with 1dB and 1.5dB. I haven't blown up the spin enough to be able to eyeball the "accurate" filter.

The ~3.5kHz resonance is also a notable difference between the 7-Series and M2.
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