JBL 705i/708i (7 Series Master Reference Monitors) & 725G/728G (subwoofers): Jan 2015 - Page 97 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2881 of 3040 Old 05-24-2019, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Go to the larger AV and pro audio forums and post a thread - Avoid JBL 7 series - Inaccurate tuning files. They will likely respond to this type of activity as it negative press and potentially revenue impacting.
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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post
That would not be fair. I've long been saying the decoded filters* were wrong because I measured the 705i and 708i both incomplete and with the remaining filters (BSS), and also measured the line output from a BSS processor with the filters engaged. So I knew with complete certainty that the decoded filters were wrong. I also knew the speakers perform as intended when used properly.

*"tunings" sounds stupid and pretentious to me, so I will use the standard language.
Why would it be unfair exactly? In the case of the 708i, they've taken a passive speaker that requires 16 biquads of active EQ to correct its response properly, and in the DCiN amps, have omitted half of these filters. Furthermore, these omissions weren't based on determining which filters have the least effect, but by arbitrarily keeping the first 8 in the order of their presentation in the London Architect software. This includes omitting a PEQ with a 4.2 dB cut at 740 Hz with half an octave of bandwidth. That's a non-trivial omission.

When confronted with these facts, they lie, and claim that the filters are hidden in the Audio Architect software for the DCiN.

It's worth noting what they claim a "tuning" (their words, not mine) consists of for the DCiN amps. From the manual, page 39, they say:
Quote:
The advanced panel includes every parameter implemented in a speaker tuning
So, what is "every parameter implemented in a speaker tuning" for the DCiN exactly? Well, here is a capture:



According to them, "every parameter implemented in a speaker tuning" consists of "8 second-order filter sections" (that is, biquads), even though it takes 16 biquads to do it properly, and they have room for the additional 8 in the input filters, but blow off their users by omitting them.

People call them "tunings" because that's what Harman calls them in their own documentation.

When you say, "the speakers perform as intended when used properly", it should be understood that "used properly" excludes using DCiN amps, because half of the required biquads for their equalization are omitted.
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Last edited by andyc56; 05-24-2019 at 10:12 PM.
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post #2882 of 3040 Old 05-25-2019, 01:57 AM
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Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post
Why would it be unfair exactly? In the case of the 708i, they've taken a passive speaker that requires 16 biquads of active EQ to correct its response properly, and in the DCiN amps, have omitted half of these filters. Furthermore, these omissions weren't based on determining which filters have the least effect, but by arbitrarily keeping the first 8 in the order of their presentation in the London Architect software. This includes omitting a PEQ with a 4.2 dB cut at 740 Hz with half an octave of bandwidth. That's a non-trivial omission.

When confronted with these facts, they lie, and claim that the filters are hidden in the Audio Architect software for the DCiN.

It's worth noting what they claim a "tuning" (their words, not mine) consists of for the DCiN amps. From the manual, page 39, they say:


So, what is "every parameter implemented in a speaker tuning" for the DCiN exactly? Well, here is a capture:



According to them, "every parameter implemented in a speaker tuning" consists of "8 second-order filter sections" (that is, biquads), even though it takes 16 biquads to do it properly, and they have room for the additional 8 in the input filters, but blow off their users by omitting them.

People call them "tunings" because that's what Harman calls them in their own documentation.

When you say, "the speakers perform as intended when used properly", it should be understood that "used properly" excludes using DCiN amps, because half of the required biquads for their equalization are omitted.
I wouldn't be so fast before (if there would be) any measurements of these amps or speakers hooked to them.

Who knows how does it work. It is obvious that they try to hide filters from the user and there is possibility of a buggy software or something like that.
On the other hand M2 filters were observed fully and correctly in this software.
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Last edited by aats; 05-25-2019 at 02:31 AM.
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post #2883 of 3040 Old 05-25-2019, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post
they lie
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post
blow off their users
That's some pretty strong language for what amounts to a wild guess based on a cracked file.

Let's not get ahead of the actual evidence. Could there be an issue? Sure, why not? But those of us less prone to throw ourselves into silly conspiracy theories must note that there is not currently a shred of actual evidence - that is to say, acoustic measurements of a 7-Series speaker hooked up to a DCIn amp with the filter file properly loaded showing response that deviates from the published curves in the expected way - that there is any actual issue for people using these speakers as they are intended to be used.

However, it is clear there is a problem for people who uncritically relied on a cracked file, were too lazy or incompetent to take confirmatory measurements, didn't have the critical listening skills to notice the resulting flaws, and now have proverbial egg on their face. This problem was of their own making. Such people were warned by people who knew more than they did (and as such people often do) simply chose to ignore facts when they conflicted with belief. That combination (laziness/incompetence + willful ignorance when confronted with facts) often leads to anger, alas.

The bottom line is, we need actual "If it’s what you say I love it" type evidence to credibly allege Harmsung colluded with negligence. The only way to get such evidence is an acoustic measurement of a 7-series speaker powered by a DCIn amp with the correct filters loaded. Hopefully somebody will provide such evidence. The burden of proof lies with those making such allegations.

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Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post
People call them "tunings" because that's what Harman calls them in their own documentation.
The source of a stupid and pretentious term for something that already has a perfectly good term is out of the scope of the actual stupidity and pretentiousness of the term.
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post #2884 of 3040 Old 05-29-2019, 02:50 AM
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Sorry to stray away from the current conversation, but I would like to use 2 amps, an xls1502 and an xls2002 with my blu-50. How do I make sure the tweeter and woofer levels are correct, and I'm not powering one too much over the other? The amps are different power so I am not sure how I know when the HF and LF are at the right point, or do I just guess?
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post #2885 of 3040 Old 05-29-2019, 02:58 AM
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Originally Posted by D0minic View Post
Sorry to stray away from the current conversation, but I would like to use 2 amps, an xls1502 and an xls2002 with my blu-50. How do I make sure the tweeter and woofer levels are correct, and I'm not powering one too much over the other? The amps are different power so I am not sure how I know when the HF and LF are at the right point, or do I just guess?
Check voltage gain of an amplifier (should be on datasheet) and set a correction in blu if needed.

You can confirm settings with a precise enough voltmeter (but you don't really need to, if datasheet is correct)
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post #2886 of 3040 Old 05-29-2019, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by aats View Post
Check voltage gain of an amplifier (should be on datasheet) and set a correction in blu if needed.

You can confirm settings with a precise enough voltmeter (but you don't really need to, if datasheet is correct)
Thanks for this, I have a voltmeter but I am unsure of the gain levels, am I supposed to be matching the same level of power going to both the tweeters and the woofer? I've never bi-amped, I do want them accurate though as this is a studio environment, sorry for noob questions!
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post #2887 of 3040 Old 05-29-2019, 08:32 AM
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Here is the response I received from Harman.

Some settings would be different depending on the product producing the filters for the speakers similar to what we do with our Touring PA Systems. When we use different filters, we have different settings for the tunings of the system to achieve the same result depending on the filter sets of the processing product. People argue about the use of FIR or IIR filters, but Harman uses these filters based on the product used to process and thus people who use the DCI or people who use BSS etc are getting best factory results based on the processors in each piece of equipment BSS, Crown, powered JBL Series 7, or JBL Intonato.

Folks aren’t looking at speaker tunings with a full understanding of what each piece of processing equipment does and they are just looking at a few exposed EQ curves.

There are usually two different tunings for the same speaker cabinet, one with FIR filters and one with IIR. For example: JBL Vertec V5 tunings use FIR filters, and V4 tunings use IIR filters.
Depending on use, certain applications don’t want the small latency induced from FIR filters. e.g. stage monitor systems. Playback of pre-recorded material on FOH concert systems can use FIR filters without much issue. PA system techs for live concerts often delay the entire system to match time arrival of the loudest thing on stage (usually the snare drum).

For the JBL 7 series speakers there are speaker tunings in the Intonato that only use IIR filters and have a line level limiter. DCi tunings may use FIR filters and a voltage limiter on the amplifier output matched to each transducer max voltage (LevelMax). You can’t compare these settings directly to each other because they are different tools achieving the same voicing and protection in different ways.

Measuring with SMAART8 or Systune using an accurate calibrated mic would be a better method of comparing different devices and the tunings applied to the speaker.
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post #2888 of 3040 Old 05-29-2019, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by D0minic View Post
Thanks for this, I have a voltmeter but I am unsure of the gain levels, am I supposed to be matching the same level of power going to both the tweeters and the woofer? I've never bi-amped, I do want them accurate though as this is a studio environment, sorry for noob questions!
You are supposed to have the same voltage gain on both amps. (unless you need difference in case of some speakers and that is stated by manufacturer).
I've looked at JBL website and they seem to not give voltage level but instead give "sensitivity" (and do not state at what impedance).
They list them as 525 @ 4 Ohm, and that would give around 30 dB of gain (when using 1.4 Vrms sensetivity setting), which also matches with this review "Gain is about 30 dB by the way." ( https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...1502-amp.6062/ )

xls2002 and xls1502 have 650 and 525 watts @ 4 Ohm respectively with the same sensitivity, which gives us a 0.92754 dB of gain difference. So if everything is correct you should setup your xls2002 0.92754 dB lower in volume than your xls1502.
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post #2889 of 3040 Old 05-29-2019, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by aats View Post
You are supposed to have the same voltage gain on both amps.
I've looked at JBL website and they seem to not give voltage level but instead give "sensitivity" (and do not state at what impedance).
They list them as 525 @ 4 Ohm, and that would give around 30 dB of gain (when using 1.4 Vrms sensetivity setting), which also matches with this review "Gain is about 30 dB by the way." ( https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...1502-amp.6062/ )



xls2002 and xls1502 have 650 and 525 watts @ 4 Ohm respectively with the same sensitivity, which gives us a 0.92754 dB of gain difference. So if everything is correct you should setup your xls2002 0.92754 dB lower in volume than your xls1502.


You are supposed to have the same voltage gain for both amplifiers.
Thank you for that, that actually does really explain, I believe the tweeters are 8ohm and the woofer 4 ohm, so thats a 350W difference so 3.x db?
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post #2890 of 3040 Old 05-29-2019, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
Here is the response I received from Harman.

Some settings would be different depending on the product producing the filters for the speakers similar to what we do with our Touring PA Systems. When we use different filters, we have different settings for the tunings of the system to achieve the same result depending on the filter sets of the processing product. People argue about the use of FIR or IIR filters, but Harman uses these filters based on the product used to process and thus people who use the DCI or people who use BSS etc are getting best factory results based on the processors in each piece of equipment BSS, Crown, powered JBL Series 7, or JBL Intonato.

Folks aren’t looking at speaker tunings with a full understanding of what each piece of processing equipment does and they are just looking at a few exposed EQ curves.

There are usually two different tunings for the same speaker cabinet, one with FIR filters and one with IIR. For example: JBL Vertec V5 tunings use FIR filters, and V4 tunings use IIR filters.
Depending on use, certain applications don’t want the small latency induced from FIR filters. e.g. stage monitor systems. Playback of pre-recorded material on FOH concert systems can use FIR filters without much issue. PA system techs for live concerts often delay the entire system to match time arrival of the loudest thing on stage (usually the snare drum).

For the JBL 7 series speakers there are speaker tunings in the Intonato that only use IIR filters and have a line level limiter. DCi tunings may use FIR filters and a voltage limiter on the amplifier output matched to each transducer max voltage (LevelMax). You can’t compare these settings directly to each other because they are different tools achieving the same voicing and protection in different ways.

Measuring with SMAART8 or Systune using an accurate calibrated mic would be a better method of comparing different devices and the tunings applied to the speaker.
So it's possible it's using FIR filtering, even though the FIR box says 0. I was under the impression from previous posts that JBL did not using FIR filtering for the 7 series. We'll have to wait for someone to measure and see. @Gooddoc seemed like he was going to try soon
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Thank you for that, that actually does really explain, I believe the tweeters are 8ohm and the woofer 4 ohm, so thats a 350W difference so

3.x db?
You seem to have a little misunderstanding (or I slept too little and read your sentences wrong)

Watts are mostly useful for marketing and measuring heat dissipation.


Most (like 99.999999%) of amplifiers are voltage amplifiers. Current that will flow depends almost completely on the load (if amp does not clip). And most (same 99.9999%) speakers are made to work with voltage sources.

If you look at JBL 708i spec sheet you will notice that they give sensitivity in dB @ 1m @ 2.83 Volts, because measuring at "1 watt" makes no sense - power consumption will vary on the same voltage across the frequency range on a given speaker, as impedance of the speaker is not a constant.
Watts really don't matter, what matters is current, volts and impedance (but watts "on resistive load" really don't). Watts only confuse users in my opinion.
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post #2892 of 3040 Old 05-29-2019, 11:21 AM
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Looks like the M2 and 7 series DCI tunings are using FIR filtering after all.

In possibly the worst user interface ever, if you hold alt and double click the BSS logo, you get to see the filter values.

This is the filter, and what it looks like decoded for the 705i



Spoiler!


And for the 708i



Spoiler!



M2



Spoiler!
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post #2893 of 3040 Old 05-29-2019, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
Looks like the 7 series DCI tunings are using FIR filtering after all.

In possibly the worst user interface ever, if you hold alt and double click the BSS logo, you get to see the filter values.

This is the filter, and what it looks like decoded for the 705i full range



Spoiler!


And for the 708i



Spoiler!
Great.
Part in bold is just insane.
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post #2894 of 3040 Old 05-29-2019, 11:29 AM
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Great.
Part in bold is just insane.
This is really my favorite part, though....

0....

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This is really my favorite part, though....

0....

Well, with this course of things I think someone should measure.
Maybe JBL work in a base 11 number system and forgot to mention it in a manual, I won't be surprised at this point.
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post #2896 of 3040 Old 05-29-2019, 11:51 AM
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Well, with this course of things I think someone should measure.
Maybe JBL work in a base 11 number system and forgot to mention it in a manual, I won't be surprised at this point.
Nah, they're loaded. The software is just crap. It's supposed to say 'optimal values are loaded from the factory' or some crap when clicking the xover button when FIR is enabled, but it's not doing that and just showing empty xover filters. Another reason I didn't think there were any.
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post #2897 of 3040 Old 05-29-2019, 11:55 AM
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FIR info post updated with M2 details as well.

If anyone is going to roll their own, the London Architect filters are the best to use if you're limited to PEQ only, the full list is in this post.
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It seems that tweeter uses passive filter inside speaker anyway?
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post #2899 of 3040 Old 05-29-2019, 05:05 PM
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So it's possible it's using FIR filtering, even though the FIR box says 0. I was under the impression from previous posts that JBL did not using FIR filtering for the 7 series. We'll have to wait for someone to measure and see. @Gooddoc seemed like he was going to try soon
I did try. Not sure if the problem was the $10 USB soundcard I tried using or user error, but I couldn't get measurements that made much sense.

Glad to read the mystery is solved though
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Looks like the M2 and 7 series DCI tunings are using FIR filtering after all.

In possibly the worst user interface ever, if you hold alt and double click the BSS logo, you get to see the filter values.

This is the filter, and what it looks like decoded for the 705i



Spoiler!


And for the 708i



Spoiler!



M2



Spoiler!
Does that mean that the Crown amps use more advanced tunings than the BSS now?
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post #2901 of 3040 Old 05-29-2019, 05:22 PM
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Does that mean that the Crown amps use more advanced tunings than the BSS now?
not really. you can see some ringing in the m2 filter even
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So it's also possible I suppose that the Itech 5000HD has hidden FIR filters? I was under the impression that FIR filters were not be used for the M2 filters, but that is clearly not true.
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So it's also possible I suppose that the Itech 5000HD has hidden FIR filters? I was under the impression that FIR filters were not be used for the M2 filters, but that is clearly not true.
Open up audio architect and connect to your amp. Double click the amp to get to it's screen, then hold alt and double click the bss logo in the bottom right. This opens the FIR filter dialog. Copy/paste all the values to me and I'll decode the filter if it exists.
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So it's also possible I suppose that the Itech 5000HD has hidden FIR filters? I was under the impression that FIR filters were not be used for the M2 filters, but that is clearly not true.
nevermind, filters are locked. I'll see if I can do anything.
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Open up audio architect and connect to your amp. Double click the amp to get to it's screen, then hold alt and double click the bss logo in the bottom right. This opens the FIR filter dialog. Copy/paste all the values to me and I'll decode the filter if it exists.
That doesn't work for me on the ITech or the DCI.
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That doesn't work for me on the ITech or the DCI.

Trivial to unlock.... no FIR filters in ITech tunings.

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not really. you can see some ringing in the m2 filter even
So do the Crown Amps for the 708i offer any benefit using FIR filters over the BSS method, which does not?
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post #2908 of 3040 Old 05-29-2019, 11:11 PM
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So do the Crown Amps for the 708i offer any benefit using FIR filters over the BSS method, which does not?
The crown uses a combination of FIR and IRR. I'm not sure there's any benefit in this case, but FIR could be used to adjust phase in the xover region to better align the hf and lf sections.
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post #2909 of 3040 Old 05-30-2019, 09:49 AM
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That is actually very interesting, I wonder if anyone can tell apart BSS 708i, DCIn 708i and 708p.
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post #2910 of 3040 Old 05-30-2019, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by aats View Post
That is actually very interesting, I wonder if anyone can tell apart BSS 708i, DCIn 708i and 708p.
Other than graph jockeying the first two of them, I'd say absolutely not...even in the most controlled setting. MAYBE hear a difference between the i and p versions.

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